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View Full Version : Are Ki a and Ki b overmodeled like Ki c?



M_S_W
04-05-2004, 10:58 PM
Seems like they are OK. What do you all think?

M_S_W
04-05-2004, 10:58 PM
Seems like they are OK. What do you all think?

Korolov
04-05-2004, 11:39 PM
1a and 1b seem spot on to me. Not as outrageously tough as the Ki-84-1c.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Slush69
04-06-2004, 01:58 AM
I don't know. I've never flown in any of those planes in real life, nor do I have any flight data with which to compare the models in FB.

So I don't know whether they're over- or undermodelled. Incidently that's one of the reasons I claim neither. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cheers/slush

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Rajvosa
04-06-2004, 02:26 AM
I know this may sound like a strange question, but which ones are new with AEP? Did they add Ki-84Ia and Ib or Ib and Ic? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Iknow, silly, but I never used the Ki-84 enough to remeber it's proper designation...

Regards,

Jasko

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SUPERAEREO
04-06-2004, 02:40 AM
Ib and Ic are the ones who have been added with FB.

I noticed I have not yet seen any Ic in the planesets of any DF room on HL (not been online much lately though).

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down."
Chuck Yaeger

WUAF_Badsight
04-06-2004, 03:10 AM
i think the people who say they are overmoddeled are either mentally deficent or dont know how to test

either fits their description equally well

& the C model rightly is absent from all non-bomber hunting DF rooms

BlitzPig_DDT
04-06-2004, 07:44 AM
Can't say if any of the 3 are "overmodeled", but they are all easy to beat.

Pssst - they don't fly or handle well at low speeds, are prone to black out at high speeds, and can be beaten handily with a Spitfire, La7, or Yak3. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Really not a big deal. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

==================================
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BpGemini
04-06-2004, 09:49 AM
A P-63 in the right hands will Pwnz the Ki-84.

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IL-2 original P-39 vet soon to be P-63 vet.

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TgD Thunderbolt56
04-06-2004, 12:18 PM
It's all relative, but IMO...no.



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AFJ_Locust
04-06-2004, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M_S_W:
Seems like they are OK. What do you all think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OVERMODLED all the way

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Maple_Tiger
04-06-2004, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M_S_W:
Seems like they are OK. What do you all think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OVERMODLED all the way

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)


I agree Locust.

Guess that means we are mentally deficient or dont know how to test http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

[Gypsy]
04-06-2004, 03:08 PM
Prior to AEP, I flew an "Aggressor" role on our squad practice nites.. flew the K-84 (whatever model was pre AEP)... did ok, but really had a tough time with the B-17s and HE-111s and well flown P51s... when AEP came out, I set up a QMB with 4 ACE B-17s and me in a 84c... 5 passes, 4 burning B-17s.. snaps shots that were unbelievable for me (no great shot here as most of my opponents will atest to)... So the next squad nite, our aggressor squad put up 3 84c models against an assortment of B-17s, HE-111s, P51s, P-38s, and it was like a shooting gallery... we were shooting them down at a 4 to 1 rate with little or no effort... we all seemed to have lazer sites on the 30s..

Of course this is only my experience (other than getting my clock cleaned by 84c's if I happen to stumble into a fight with them no matter what I am flying)...

So my take on the KI-84C... yep.. overmodeled.. or as someone said in an earlier post on this subject... a true "clown-plane"... and the A and B models are really decent A/C.

"Gypsy"

Rivercube
04-06-2004, 03:55 PM
Hi,

i dont want to flame here..but there are many other good planes in the game like la7 and jak 3.
I think you have to accept, that every plane is modelled like it could be without any problems from bad productions like the japanese had in 44/45. Without that and in hands of a good pilot the Ki is a killer!

And another point is the 30mm. If you hit a plane with 30mm 2-3 hits at maximum should last for a fighter and 3-4 for a bomber. 109 and 190 needed arround 2-3 hits for a b17 so every fighter should fall down with so much hits.

This combined with a good overall view and gunsight makes Ki84 a good plane. And i dont think its too strong - if you fly your 109 or 190 correctly you will beat it. Wonder that Locust is so afraight with the high skill he has...? Should be no problem for you at all :-)


Ever tested the ki at 7000m and above?? The engine stutters and sucks! You can kill it with P51 and P47 easily there - as it should be...
but in low and medium hights it is a true match
and superior to the us planes (when in same energy conditions).

Horridoh.

Rivercube

Maple_Tiger
04-06-2004, 07:45 PM
I dont't know 100% shure but isn't the C a little less manuverable then the A? I have flown both of them and it seems like the C is a tiny bit less manuverable but i could be wronge. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I wouldn't mind if the C was more available. The last three encounters i have had with it i shot it down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

ASH at S-MART
04-06-2004, 08:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M_S_W:
Seems like they are OK. What do you all think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>A,B,C.. it's easy as 1,2,3... Oh maybe Doh,Ray,Me.. ABC.. ABC baby you and me.. Shucka Shucka Shucka boom boom

ASH HOUSEWARES
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Bull_dog_
04-06-2004, 08:16 PM
If the Ki wasn't so darn fast at high altitude...if it couldn't out dive a jug... if it couldn't outroll a Fw.... if it couldn't outclimb and 109K...out shoot everything...out turn a tie fighter....and if it couldn't absorb more 37mm rounds than a tiger tank...well...

It would be pretty close to on target...

In all seriousness, the Ki is just too robust in too many areas...no real weakpoints. There are planes that can out climb, out turn (I don't think out shoot, out roll or out dive) outspeed... But all those opponents have some weak point that can be exploited by the Ki...

The La or Yak or P-63 is a good Ki killer down low but get up in the sky and forget it... i don't know if there is an aircraft that can beat it.... even the La and Yak have poor high speed handling and break up easily so if you have some altitude, you can survive an encounter. The Yak in particular can be out run..although the 9U might not be so easy....

I don't notice much difference between the A,B, and C models... in fact, i've done some rudimentary dive and speed tests and I don't find that weight is much of a factor in any of these things...can't tell with turn radius.

If you don't believe me...just take an aircraft out with 100% fuel and test...then go to 25%... I found no appreciable difference...same with diving...a Jug is no different than a Ki in a steep dive and in a shallow dive, the Ki will catch it cause of its better top end speed as altitude decreases. Testing on a,b, and c yielded no difference in speed, but I didn't test dive or turn.

problem with the C is that it kills everything in its path and the only way I've found to take one out head on is to get a lucky pilot kill...they are suseptable to PK's

PikeBishop
04-07-2004, 02:39 AM
In general terms, to get the right impact of this aircrafts formulae I'd say it should in RELATIVE TERMS:
1. Have the structural strength of the P51.
2. Have the acceleration and climbing power of the Zero's (at low and medium altitude) at medium and high altitude.
3.Match the turn and roll rate of the Spitfire IX.
4. Be slightly slower than the P51 terminally in a dive but better acceleration in the initial dive.
5. As far as armament goes....just match it with equivalent weaponry of other aircraft configurations in the game.
6.One point should be made clear with reference to the altitude performance of this aircraft. At the maximum speed at any altitude, the thrust equals the drag. If you climb there is a deficit in thrust so the speed falls accordingly. When the ceiling is reached it means that the thrust and drag are equal but the aircraft is flying at the stall so no more height can be gained.
The fact that the P51 has a slightly higher ceiling it means that it has a slight advantage at this height but it is very marginal an no-one will fight at these extreme altitudes anyway. So the figures imply that these two are equals at high altitudes, but the P51 loses out at medium and low as shown by the relative climb rates.(a combination of wing and power loadings)
One might argue that the damage tolerance of the P51 should be better than the KI84's because it is heavier, but the KI84 is a smaller aircraft anyway.

Best regards,

SLP.

Fehler
04-07-2004, 03:19 AM
Well, I hate to burst anyone's bubble here, but if you look at the figures that Butch2K put up in ORR, you will discover that the Ki-84 is nearly spot on.

I know, it is hard to imagine that it was really that good, but if you take some time to read the whole thread, and sift through the, "We won the war, therefore everything we had was superior" posts, you will discover that the plane was a pretty darn good bird.

The damage model is the only thing suspect in my opinion, but I think it is mainly caused by the bug (Also noted) that causes HE cannon rounds secondary explosion effects to be calculated incorrectly.

Power to weight, wing loading, and firepower are all good charicteristics of this plane. Just because it has a big red dot on it does not mean it was inferior.

Believe me, I am NOT a Japanese plane lover. I do like the early war dive bombers/torpedo bombers, but I have never been a big fan of the fighters. But after reading all the evidence, I have a new found appreciation for this plane as it is modeled in AEP.

Let's all wait for the patch and see what comes with extra destructive power of HE cannon rounds, then come back and see if the Ki is still all that Uber...

BTW, even in a P-38, I dont find the Ki much challenge if I start at an advantage.

At a disadvantage, you are dead meat if the other guy is a competant pilot. That's why they call it a disadvantage...

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WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 03:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:

...if it couldn't out dive a jug... if it couldn't outroll a Fw.... if it couldn't outclimb a 109K... out turn a tie fighter....and if it couldn't absorb more 37mm rounds than a tiger tank...well...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


you will be happy Bull_Dog

the KI can do absolutly NONE of those things

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:

In all seriousness, the Ki is just too robust in too many areas...no real weakpoints. There are planes that can out climb, out turn (I don't think out shoot, out roll or out dive) outspeed... But all those opponents have some weak point that can be exploited by the Ki...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

these same opponents are also able to exploit the KI-84s weak points

seriously ..... with all due respect if you simply test the plane

if you actually use it in combat

you will see its no ultra strong plane

it blows up from over-G , it gets set on fire easy , it looses top speed rediculously , its turning can be downgraded tremendously

it can be out-turned

it can be out-dived

its not the fastest AT ALL at Altitude like some say

the reason its being picked on truely seems to be its origin

so far all arguments about its being overmoddeled have been refuted

no one has yet to show an area that it performs too well in


EDIT :

id really like to add that planes were fragile machines , 30mm cannon hits would have severly damadged Bombers let alone fighters

you are not supposed to handel multiple 30mm cannon hits

but for DF servers the KI-B is more than enough for KI fans

wanting the C is just plain greedy

ElAurens
04-07-2004, 05:30 AM
Badsight is right on the money here. The Ki84, in any configuration, is just another plane. It is not the best at anything. It just does many things with competence. If you fly it on servers with "n00b" settings (no-pit, no CEM, no blackout, etc...) I can see how you might call it uber. But on servers with anything approaching "full real" (whatever that means) it is merely OK.

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HayateKid
04-07-2004, 09:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
but for DF servers the KI-B is more than enough for KI fans

wanting the C is just plain greedy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

now you make me feel bad for asking. maybe i should never climb to altitude before engaging, that would be just greedy. and maybe i should downgrade to 56k. gods forbid, i should have an advantage over my opponents. the irony is that all these other advantages that we would take without a violated sense of fairness are peripheral to the planes themselves. the planes were real. there was actually such a thing as a ki-84C. instead of banning the C, why not just give the P-51 6 cannons, that way we're all even with the Fw190A8.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi