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View Full Version : Just curious : why no call to ban Western aircraft ?



Capt._Tenneal
04-15-2004, 10:35 AM
In the midst of all this debate about super planes and banning then from some servers (La-7, Bf-109Z, the 'notorious' Ki-84c, soon-to-be 'notorious' I-185 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), I haven't seen outrage that US or UK planes are 'uber'. I'm not claiming they are or not, just why the silence ? Are they really accurate in their flight and damage models compared to the Axis and VVS planes ? Or is it Western bias ?

Capt._Tenneal
04-15-2004, 10:35 AM
In the midst of all this debate about super planes and banning then from some servers (La-7, Bf-109Z, the 'notorious' Ki-84c, soon-to-be 'notorious' I-185 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), I haven't seen outrage that US or UK planes are 'uber'. I'm not claiming they are or not, just why the silence ? Are they really accurate in their flight and damage models compared to the Axis and VVS planes ? Or is it Western bias ?

clint-ruin
04-15-2004, 10:43 AM
Plenty of complaints about the Spitfires in AEP and Hurricanes in FB 1.0 being overmodelled at the time. Some people have issues with some pretty optimistic climb figures for the 47 in various FB patches, P-40 climb too now I think of it. It's there, it just never reaches the drum beating mindless intensity of some of the other whining that goes on.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 10:44 AM
Hide under the bed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Cajun76
04-15-2004, 10:48 AM
FINALLY!! THANK YOU FOR HAVING THE GUTS TO BRING THIS TO THE COMMUNITIES ATTENTION!!!

I'd like to ban the P-47D-27. It's rollrate is too good, and it's .50 cals are way too accurate.


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

HayateKid
04-15-2004, 11:01 AM
Simple answer: Allied planes (in contrast to Axis planes) had better field performance than factory spec. FB models factory spec.

"First learn stand, then learn fly. Nature rule, Daniel San, not mine." - Mr. Miyagi

NorrisMcWhirter
04-15-2004, 11:03 AM
Hi,

With AEP, the .50 cals are a joke. In an 'any plane' server, it took many hits from a MK108 to take off the wing of a BF110.

Roll up with a P40, quick burst, off comes the wing.

This is subjective, of course, and a scientific 'repeat' of the experiment is not easy.

The reason why allied planes are not considered uber is because there is a significant number of 'allied' nationalities in this forum. Take a look in ORR; complaints about the P51 not being good enough in this department, P47 not being good enough in that department, P38 DM not tough enough, .50 dispersal not good enough..blah blah blah. Then, take a look at the sigs of the people doing the moaning. Maybe I am imagining it but I think there is a correlation. And we know where whining gets you in ORR (unless it's about the FW190 view) - it gets you a result, especially if new sales come after.

Let's face it - the allies won the war. Knowing that, how could the axis powers *possibly* have any good planes?

Norris


================================================== ==========

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More irreverence:
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michapma
04-15-2004, 11:04 AM
What's a dogfight server?

Seriously, I've never understood why people get uptight about historic performance of aircraft when all they want to do is fly it using unhistoric tactics in an unhistoric context in unhistoric match-ups. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

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lazio5
04-15-2004, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cajun76:
FINALLY!! THANK YOU FOR HAVING THE GUTS TO BRING THIS TO THE COMMUNITIES ATTENTION!!!

I'd like to ban the P-47D-27. It's rollrate is too good, and it's .50 cals are way too accurate.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
yeah, what he said. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Capt._Tenneal
04-15-2004, 11:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Hide under the bed! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yah, Ivan. Should I expect an artillery barrage a la Band Of Brothers, episode 6 ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 11:11 AM
Something like that Capt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Heavy_Weather
04-15-2004, 01:05 PM
all your bases are belong to us http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

warriorbear
04-15-2004, 01:14 PM
Wow this is quite funny when the server is upto the host. Western bias is laughable when all i have seen on this forum is axis whining. I know you guys are gonna go crazy when the spit 9 is out and 14 along with the 7 HF lol. Listen the host can put what he wants dont blame the plane just pilot error lol is why u die.

warriorbear

Zen--
04-15-2004, 01:14 PM
Does anyone really think that western AC have performance great enough to warrant banning?

Even the La7 was never banned, though it has been hotly debated. While some western AC may be overmodelled to one extent or another, imho it is no worse than anything else in the game and none of them even come close to some of the planes generating such concern now (Ki84, 109Z, etc).

-Zen-
Tracks (http://209.163.146.67/tracks)

DarthBane_
04-15-2004, 01:21 PM
True, i cannt listen to anymore allied crybabies

jurinko
04-15-2004, 01:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warriorbear:
...I know you guys are gonna go crazy when the spit 9 is out and 14 along with the 7 HF lol.
warriorbear<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

no fear of IX down low, above 6km - yes. XIV is probably another thing but didn´t fly it yet.

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

"With the advent of the FW 190A, this was not as critical as it once had been. The aircraft was a superb dogfighter, and its pilots used it as such. The previous summer, faced with slashing attacks by the 109s, the constant complaint of RAF pilots was that 'Jerry' didn't stay and fight, totally ignoring the fact that in the 109 this was tactically correct. Now they were repaid in spades: in his new Fw 190A, 'Jerry' stayed and fought as never before."

tttiger
04-15-2004, 01:53 PM
Thank you Michapma, I was starting to feel I was the only guy in town who laughs at all this DF nonsense.

Any simulartity between a DF arena and real air combat is purely coincidental.

All this whining about historical accuracy in FMs and DMs from the DF folks is silly.

The really telling factor is that the Coop pilots and the Virtual War pilots who try to fly historical missions don't get into this debate.

And Haytekid, you are exactly right. If yoy read the memoirs of many of the top US aces you will find that the airplane manufacturers had factory reps permanently assigned to the fighter groups. They showed the mechanics and the pilots how to tune up their planes so they could fly with manifold pressures that, according to the manual, were impossible. Oleg uses the factory specs.

My .02.

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

Maple_Tiger
04-15-2004, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
In the midst of all this debate about super planes and banning then from some servers (La-7, Bf-109Z, the 'notorious' Ki-84c, soon-to-be 'notorious' I-185 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ), I haven't seen outrage that US or UK planes are 'uber'. I'm not claiming they are or not, just why the silence ? Are they really accurate in their flight and damage models compared to the Axis and VVS planes ? Or is it Western bias ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Ill admit i fly the alied planes most of the time. The only plane the alies have that i think may be a little uber, would be the YP-80.

I personly think that it turns a little too well at low speeds. Although i think that the climb rate for the YP-80 is not all that great.

I can't realy comment on the Spit's because i just do not fly them, nor do i know much about them.

I don't own any WW2 planes so this is just based on my opinion.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid111/p4a4fe01f1585e87d078204671c682c4d/f90e96f0.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Lav69
04-15-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by michapma:
What's a dogfight server?

Seriously, I've never understood why people get uptight about historic performance of aircraft when all they want to do is fly it using unhistoric tactics in an unhistoric context in unhistoric match-ups. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outstanding point. Very well put.....BRAVO!!!!!

_______________
I'm fixin to.

Bearcat99
04-15-2004, 03:21 PM
I never understood why someone would want to institute a "ban" on any plane anyway other than for purely theatre or timeline related issues. Sounds like a bunch of sissy boys to me... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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GK.
04-15-2004, 03:24 PM
wait till the new spitfire comes out.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/tonysig.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-15-2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GK.:
wait till the new spitfire comes out.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What`s gonna happen then? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Locust_
04-15-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NorrisMcWhirter:
Hi,
Let's face it - the allies won the war. Knowing that, how could the axis powers *possibly* have any good planes?

Norris


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey man you must be high or something, The axis have the best ac in this sim, the western ac are no match for the likes of K4, dora44 and many others......

I like the western ac alot but the gunz are a freekin joke u ever seen a .50 cal round...
now imagine 300 of thoes hitting an ac it would be shreded but not in fbaep...

the russians have alot of good ac as well

Ive been making year maps & that seems to even things out a bit.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/161sig.jpg

Fighter Sweeps is here come join the fun.....
http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Papa_K
04-15-2004, 04:01 PM
Prediction:

Spit-whining will become the new sport around here when the later version comes out - if it's fm is anywhere near what it should be.

I-185 whining should commence about the same time. Will it model any potential self-destructive tendencies or flaws it may have had that stopped its development? Something tells me "No."

There may be a western bias in the forums, but what (if any) bias would you say the game has?

Papa_K

P.S. US fighters could be banned for several reasons...they have atributes missing in other airframes:

P-51 whining: Why can't my airplane blow up when I maneuver at high speed?

P-47 whining: Why can't my airplane roll slower than the B-17?

P-38 whining: Why can't my nose wander aimlessly when I fire the gun, or, why can't my nose-mounted guns spray a nice wide pattern?

RedDeth
04-15-2004, 04:32 PM
spit nine will not be uber. it will be undermodelled mark my words

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NorrisMcWhirter
04-15-2004, 04:44 PM
Hey man you must be high or something, The axis have the best ac in this sim, the western ac are no match for the likes of K4, dora44 and many others......


ahem..I think you missed my sarcastic tone. I fly LW as often as possible - the aircraft are simply fantastic...when not porked.

Cheers,
Norris


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
http://www.tvgohome.com/

JG7_Rall
04-15-2004, 05:09 PM
I think Zen did a good job of summing up why.

The Allied planes (US and British) for the most part aren't too overmodelled IF they are. In a lot of areas they are undermodelled. German planes are excellent but I too agree they could use some tweaking.

The planes that IMO should be considered for banning are the Ki-84, La-7, Yak-3, jets, and maybe the P-51D20 because of the sight. The Ki-84 is controversial atm and while I don't think its too too overmodelled, its tests are based on US ones IIRC. In these tests better fuel and non-wartime conditions were used which simply shouldn't be present in AEP. The Yak-3 and La-7 have some energy retention issues to be worked out. The jets etc. are obvious why they should maybe be banned.

I do think this game is unintentionally a BIT (emphasis on bit) bias when it comes to the La-7. I mean, the planes made out of wood, so I understand why its light. Maybe the wood is strong, but taking multiple Mk 108 hits when bombers could barely take 3-5 is rediculous. Also, its lightweight gives it great turning which I have no problem with. HOWEVER, if its so light, why is it such a stable gun platform? When making a plane there's always tradeoffs, armor for maneuverability, etc. In this case, weight and armor was sacrificed to save weight so the plane shouldn't be that strong and also shouldn't be such a stable gun platform. Again, I haven't flown the plane, so don't consider that too much of a whine, its just common sense and research.

Thank you for your time, again please don't over analyse what I said and bust out the flamethrowers.

S!

Hutch

EDIT: I have no problem with the K-14 gunsight, but I understand that some people do??? I don't remember exactly but I just wanted to clarify that I don't really have a problem with it...

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
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Capt._Tenneal
04-15-2004, 06:04 PM
Don't get me wrong, my question in the title is rhetorical and I'm not stamping my feet saying "ban this or that". I know hosts can set the rules for their servers.

I'm just comparing the vehement reaction to, as an example, the Ki only because it's the one that's been called clown plane , UFO, noob aircraft, etc. And yet I've read some threads where people are lusting for Griffon-powered Spits. And I'm pretty sure, if they appear in FB people will flock to them. But can't they be considered a "noob plane" also ? Do I think there will be lots of threads calling for them to be "banned", probably not.

Bull_dog_
04-15-2004, 06:49 PM
The whole "banning" thing doesn't make a lick of sense...individuals humans host online games...not the Borg... it is not possible to "ban" an aircraft.

People that make maps and host games choose of their own free will which aircraft they want flying and which ones they don't. I personally like 42,43 and limited 44 planesets. I like it best when any given aircraft in a plane set has an important attribute better than another...that is climb, dive, speed or firepower... especially climb and speed. This allows the smart pilot to engage and disengage at will but makes him vulnerable to good tactics...

I don't like it when an aircraft is slower, turns slower, dives slower and climbs slower and can't kill its opponent... it is no fun to fly in those conditions... if you think it is take a Bf109E into a 1944 server and try to have fun.

So my point is, there is no way to "ban" a plane and speaking of it is actually silly. A player can boycott a server or a server can choose the planes, but nobody but Oleg can decide what planes I make available on my server.

Enofinu
04-15-2004, 07:09 PM
Locust, have u ever seen 20mm round?
or 30mm round??
ur .50cal looks like pea next to those.

Maple_Tiger
04-15-2004, 07:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Enofinu:
Locust, have u ever seen 20mm round?
or 30mm round??
ur .50cal looks like pea next to those.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Isn't the 50cal about 12mm?

Saying there peas sized compared to the 20mm is kind of ******ed.

My father fired the 50cal in the army. When he watchs me fire 6 50cal at an enemy plane, he becomes hysterical lol.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/pentagoncropcircle.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Fennec_P
04-15-2004, 07:45 PM
I don't see how you could whine that USA planes are overmodelled. Even if they were, you probably wouldn't notice.

Generally, they are just too heavy to have extraordinary performance figures. None of them turn particularly well or accelerate particularly well. All the US planes are, how you say, "balanced".

Now if you could somehow get a P-47M to lose 2 tonnes... that would be something to whine about. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

dahdah
04-15-2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:

Isn't the 50cal about 12mm?

Saying there peas sized compared to the 20mm is kind of ******ed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

0.50" = 12.7mm, that is almost 1/2 of 20mm.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You never seen large peas? They do exist and are almost the size of a .5" bullet.

Fehler
04-15-2004, 08:08 PM
I really dont know why everyone moans about the 50cal. I shot one IRL too, and the damage effects are pretty much what I expect in FB.

In game I get shot down by 50's and shoot down others with them. They dont split planes in half with a 1/4 second burst, and they really shouldnt. (That's why they included a 20mm Hispano in the P38 for example) If you want explosive effects, you need an explosive... a cannon. If you want destruction with heavy MG's you need a lot of them, that's why the later planes use more than 2 50 cals.

What everyone moans about is why they cant shoot down a plane with a spray and pray round in a wingroot, and that is NOT even close to reality. Take a wing, drill a 1/2 inch hole in a wing, and it will still fly, I assure you.

It's a classic example of an over-expectation for a factory standard.

Oh and banning planes is silly. Just choose planesets and matchups that were historical, and the game is more fun than watching Ivan lock threads!

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Lunix
04-15-2004, 08:09 PM
Bring on the uber planes! Nothing brings saisfaction like doing wing removals on them in your crap plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif S!

http://members.shaw.ca/corn/il2sig2.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-15-2004, 09:10 PM
Rall:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The planes that IMO should be considered for banning are the Ki-84, La-7, Yak-3, jets, and maybe the P-51D20 because of the sight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL real life Luftwaffe pilots wanted to BAN La7, Yak3, and P~51 gunsight too. Most likely USA pilots wanted to BAN the Ki~84. One thing FB models exactly is historical pilot Whining.



__________________
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Red_Russian13
04-15-2004, 09:34 PM
Who cares? Just play the game...

michapma
04-16-2004, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>One thing FB models exactly is historical pilot Whining.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That deserves a http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Diablo310th
04-16-2004, 08:12 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cajun76:
FINALLY!! THANK YOU FOR HAVING THE GUTS TO BRING THIS TO THE COMMUNITIES ATTENTION!!!

I'd like to ban the P-47D-27. It's rollrate is too good, and it's .50 cals are way too accurate.



I heard that it rolled like a FW 190 and used laser sights and range finders installed. Wayyyy over modeled in my opinion.

[This message was edited by Diablo310th on Fri April 16 2004 at 07:36 AM.]

Franzen
04-16-2004, 12:25 PM
Don't get mad, get even. Make your own server. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif I don't understand all the complaining. Think of it this way, it's a challenge. Hop in your 109 and hunt whatever is overmodelled. Once you can take on and beat everything, you'll be the best of the best and the "noob plane" pilots will remain limited. It's the pilot, not the plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz Franzen

Franzen
04-16-2004, 12:28 PM
I also think this way; we can expect patches and add-ons in time or we can expect historical accuracy but we can expect both.

Fritz Franzen