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73GIAP_Milan
09-15-2004, 01:31 PM
Hi guys, today i happened to be in the vicinity of the Arnhem Bridge over the Rhine where Operation Market Garden took place.. as i live about 10KM from there..

I managed to make quite a few pics, of very lousy quality because i could not get near the bridge soon enough and buildings blocked most of the sight, but the show was well worth it.
First Parajumpers came down from a Dakota, then this bird made a few passes over the bridge, followed by a Mustang and a B25 Mitchell, then again parajumpers, this time from a Lockheed Hercules..

I got some bad quality movies too, but the sound on it is awesome. It totally made my day, as the mustang performed a few highspeed passes and really impressive u-turns..

I hope there are a few guys here who might have some good footage.

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

73GIAP_Milan
09-15-2004, 01:31 PM
Hi guys, today i happened to be in the vicinity of the Arnhem Bridge over the Rhine where Operation Market Garden took place.. as i live about 10KM from there..

I managed to make quite a few pics, of very lousy quality because i could not get near the bridge soon enough and buildings blocked most of the sight, but the show was well worth it.
First Parajumpers came down from a Dakota, then this bird made a few passes over the bridge, followed by a Mustang and a B25 Mitchell, then again parajumpers, this time from a Lockheed Hercules..

I got some bad quality movies too, but the sound on it is awesome. It totally made my day, as the mustang performed a few highspeed passes and really impressive u-turns..

I hope there are a few guys here who might have some good footage.

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

WTE_Galway
09-15-2004, 07:24 PM
they are celebrating one of the biggest tactical errors of the war ??

how odd

ThePredster
09-15-2004, 07:27 PM
seriously

it was all George Dubya Bush's fault.

if he hadnt invaded iraq and afgahistan, he could've sent abrahms tanks and f22 rapters over to shoot down the brits and win the war.

in conslusion- the f22 and abrahms tank won world war 2

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WTE_Galway
09-15-2004, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThePredster:
seriously

it was all George Dubya Bush's fault.

if he hadnt invaded iraq and afgahistan, he could've sent abrahms tanks and f22 rapters over to shoot down the brits and win the war.

in conslusion- the f22 and abrahms tank won world war 2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/preddy/tiger22.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have it on good authority that George Dubyah flew for the national guard at Pearl Harbour back in WWII and took out several zeroes by himself in a Stearman trainer

ThePredster
09-15-2004, 07:30 PM
i heard he only used a .177 pellet rifle too...

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DayGlow
09-15-2004, 07:35 PM
I saw the memo on CBS.

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I am not an employee of Eagle Dynamics nor Ubisoft and I do not speak for them.
All my comments are IMHO

A-M
09-15-2004, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DayGlow:
I saw the memo on CBS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What did it say?

Lateralus_14
09-15-2004, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
they are celebrating one of the biggest tactical errors of the war ??

how odd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? Tactically the operation went even better than could be realistically expected; it was a strategic failure.

LW_August
09-15-2004, 07:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
they are celebrating one of the biggest tactical errors of the war ??

how odd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No you troll, they are celebrating one of the finest displays of valor and fighting ability seen in the war.

Besides, the error was strategic, not tactical.
The Paras did their part, in spades....

Regards,
August

UB6MEB9
09-15-2004, 07:56 PM
"..in spades"

Is that a pun? You know.. the spades on thier helmets..

VOL_Hans
09-15-2004, 08:02 PM
Operation Market Garden was a tremendous show of force. Despite rather poor (idiotic) planning, the operation prooved to be successfull enough.

Nimegen and Eindhoven fell to American paratroopers, and Arnhem was a VERY close "almost" by the British.

But, lets just add it all up, shall we?

Three para landing zones along a single advance road, surrounded by Heer troops. Not to mention a few SS Panzer groups and some Luftwaffe FJ's (Paras) to mess with the troops landing...

You can see why things didnt go according to plan...

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

LW_August
09-15-2004, 08:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UB6MEB9:
"..in spades"

Is that a pun? You know.. the spades on thier helmets..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif No pun, after all the spades were on the helmets of only one regiment, whereas there were three entire airborne divisions and a brigade who made the jump into Holland.

I just hate it when someone cracks wise in a tribute thread.

Regards,
August

PraetorHonoris
09-15-2004, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Operation Market Garden was a tremendous show of force. Despite rather poor (idiotic) planning, the operation prooved to be successfull enough.

Nimegen and Eindhoven fell to American paratroopers, and Arnhem was a VERY close "almost" by the British.

But, lets just add it all up, shall we?

Three para landing zones along a single advance road, surrounded by Heer troops. Not to mention a few SS Panzer groups and some Luftwaffe FJ's (Paras) to mess with the troops landing...

You can see why things didnt go according to plan...

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a common myth, that the Allied paras faced elite only.
In fact, most of the opposition was build up by men, who never had a gun in their hands before. ReichsArbeitsDienst and ReichsBahn men(workers) were armed and thrown into battle and certain death in order to slow down the Allied advance.
Obersturmbannf√ľhrer Harzer said onces: "I am proud of this victory, because it was not achieved by regular units, but members from the RB and RAD, who never had an infantristic drill"

The SS Divisions Frundsberg and Hohenstauffen did not had a single tank, when Market Garden began. They had lost all of them in the normandy. Moreover they have had to suffer heavy losses there.
The II. SS-Panzerkorps was as strong as an infantry brigade, about 2500 men.
All armoured vehicels were destroyed in the famous rush under Hauptsturmf√ľhrer Gr√¬§bner (as displayed in "A bridge too far").

The line of the 1.Fallschirmj√¬§gerarmee (Paras) was broken at the very beginning of Market Garden, that is why the OKH had to arm workers.

The sPzAbt.501 (King Tigers) arrived very late, when the battle was focussed on the surrounded Britsh paras in Osterbrook (spelling?).

I strongly recommend to read "It never snows in September - The German View of MARKET GARDEN and The Battle of Arnhem, September 1944", written by Robert Kershaw. He is a british historian, who also served as paratrooper officer in Northern Irland, Bosnia and Iraq.

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He casts his eyes to heaven's blue,
From where past heroes hold the view,
And swears pugnaciously the oath,
You Rhine and I stay German, both.

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Wed September 15 2004 at 08:29 PM.]

BaldieJr
09-15-2004, 08:43 PM
I'd never bother reading the german books because they lost. I just want to hear what the heros have to say.

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Rogodin
09-15-2004, 09:27 PM
Let the synicism die-it's inane.


Rogo

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"Those who long for exaltation look upwards, but I look downwards for I am the exalted."
Thus Spake Zarathustra.

Luftwaffe_109
09-16-2004, 12:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The SS Divisions Frundsberg and Hohenstauffen did not had a single tank, when Market Garden began. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I understand it, the 9th SS-Panzer Division was equiped with 42 armoured cars and half-tracks, 2 Jagdpanzers, 3 tracked FLAK vehicles and 1 FLAK half-track.

So there are no problems there, but the Frundsberg however was equiped with 8 Panzer V Panthers, 12 Panzer IVs, 4 STUG IIIs, 7 armoured cars and half-track 1 Pz. P204 and 1 FLAK half-track.

These two Waffen-SS division being in the region in and around Market Garden, not to mention the numerous Kampfgruppen.

So I am a bit puzzeled by your claim that the 10th and 9th SS had no tanks? Could my sources be wrong?

Regards

PraetorHonoris
09-16-2004, 01:44 AM
You are right.
I have looked it up and there were some PIV in the Stab/10.SS-PzD., which was in Vorden (not really close to Arnhem). Those tanks enganged later on.
Nonetheless, a Panzerkorps should have about 500 tanks... So you have to mention that there were virtually no tanks.

And for your Kampfgruppen, I already mentioned that these are ad hoc formed fast respond units lacking expirienced men and sufficient equipment.

Around and in Arnhem, there were no other forces then the II. SS-Panzerkorps and parts of the ArtRgt 184 (without guns), unless you count the ground crew of the Fliegerhorst Deelen and the NCO-aspirants at the SS-Unterf√ľhrerschule.

Other troops to counter the allied advance towards Arnhem arrived later:
KGr. M√¬∂ller (120 men)
KGr. Gropp (Flak, 87 men)
KGr. Spindler (1000 men)
KGr. Knaust (200-300 men)
KGr. Krafft (600)
KGr. von Tettau (3000 men)
But the majority of those men did not fight the British but the Allied advance.

The fight on the road of the corridor is something different. The Kampfgruppen mentioned above were formed later and tried to stop the advance at a later time.

Earlier on the Allied faced several other troops, I could list them all, but I summerize that the Allies were superior in numbers, material, logistics and far superior in experience (they faced old workers and young Flakhelfer boys).
That is why they broke through. But they were too slow.

In Arnhem/Oosterbeek meanwhile the Germans were superior in material and logistics and the British paras were about equal concerning experience and numbers.
Both British and Germen were reenforced during the battle.

My point is that the German forces were not that superior as often stated. Even though having a bad plan, the Allied had chances. Only they did not expect such a stiff defense from a Military, which they considered to be defeated and underestimated the ability of the German command of quickly reenforce own troops and slow down the Allied troops.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7306/Aermelband.jpg

He casts his eyes to heaven's blue,
From where past heroes hold the view,
And swears pugnaciously the oath,
You Rhine and I stay German, both.

ploughman
09-16-2004, 02:16 AM
It so nearly was though. As with all daring strokes they're called idiotic when they fail but acts of genius when they succeed. It is very de rigour to trash any of Monty's plans as he was a complete pain in the bottom and the Yanks couldn't stand him (who could, the creep) but he did have El Alamein and the Normandy landings under his belt, as well as successfull campaigns in between, so he was not a bad general at all. Had Lt Carrington's tanks advanced on the Arnhem bridge he would have succeeded in getting there as the road was undefended at that time. As it was he assumed it would be infested with PAK guns and infantry and thus wasn't going to advance until his own infantry was bought up by which time it was too late. On such decisions hang the fate of nations. Too bad really, but the courage of those involved was astonishing. I felt particularily sorry for the US Airborne guy who led his troops in a stiffly contested river assault only to have the advance stall right there and then. He must have felt pretty cheesed off.

Additionally, had the Allies not had to deal with Paris, which they were going to by-pass, and the political aspirations of de Gaul everything would have been advanced by at least 2 weeks, the Allies would have been able to concentrate on smashing the Germans rather than feeding an fueling a major city, and the Germans would have been 2 weeks less organised after the collapse of their armies in France. A bit of a what if along the lines of Barbarossa starting when it should have instead of a month later, but there you go.

[This message was edited by Ploughman on Thu September 16 2004 at 01:40 AM.]

Copperhead310th
09-16-2004, 02:37 AM
August
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I just hate it when someone cracks wise in a tribute thread.

Regards,
August<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agreed Sir. not a cool thing to do at all.

PraetorHonoris
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The sPzAbt.501 (King Tigers) arrived very late, when the battle was focussed on the surrounded Britsh paras in Osterbrook (spelling?).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was becuse the King Tigers kept breaking down on them. they were frequntly plauged with machanical failures.

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that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."Counting Crows

WTE_Ibis
09-16-2004, 03:10 AM
If only they had the combined wisdom of all the Einsteins on this thread all would have gone smoothley be sure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

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Nubarus
09-16-2004, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VOL_Hans:
Operation Market Garden was a tremendous show of force. Despite rather poor (idiotic) planning, the operation prooved to be successfull enough.

Nimegen and Eindhoven fell to American paratroopers, and Arnhem was a VERY close "almost" by the British.

But, lets just add it all up, shall we?

Three para landing zones along a single advance road, surrounded by Heer troops. Not to mention a few SS Panzer groups and some Luftwaffe FJ's (Paras) to mess with the troops landing...

You can see why things didnt go according to plan...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually it was 4 para landing zones.

Eindhoven and Son (Son is very close to Eindhoven), Grave, Nijmegen and Arnhem.

And to those who tried to be funny in this thread have no respect for those who have fought and died to preserve our freedom.

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bazzaah2
09-16-2004, 05:09 AM
yep, I was in the Parachute Regiment a long time ago and Arnhem is deeply felt and honoured, as it should be.

Here's to the fallen.

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

Normally Spiny Norman was wont to be about
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anything up to eight hundred yards long.

eddie_slovik
09-16-2004, 09:38 AM
the only significant german intelligence success against the british that i have heard of came in this battle.i forget the german officers name but he succeeded in neutralising a dutch resistance intelligence group and utilising their net to send false information back to england.this information was quickly discovered to be false by the brits and subsequently all dutch gathered intelligence was doubted.the result of this was that when reports came in of SS detatchments in the arnhem area from genuine dutch resistance workers it was disbelieved.
robert kershaws book,"it never snows in september" states that the 9th and 10th SS divisions were of only 20-30% establishment.the 10th were partially in transit to germany and had taken the majority of the 9ths remaining armour apart from some AFV'S that were in repair shops.
i believe arnhem was not taken for several reasons. firstly the 1st airbournes drop zone was too far from its objective.communications were poor due to incorrect or faulty radios.the failure to employ a specialist force in a coop de main such as that used on pegasus bridge.poor use of the polish brigade.and the IISS corps(albeit severely depleted) being on the objectives door step.
further the operations aim was to provide a bridgehead over the rhine for future operations.if this operation was truly intended to finish the war quickly would it not have been prudent to have expanded it to actually make immediate use of this bridgehead ? i've always felt that there were deeper implications involved here especially when you consider that the anglo/american forces agreed to stop at the elbe and the russians were to have the ultimate prize in berlin.the success and subsequent exploitation of market garden would have changed this.the road to berlin would indeed have been wide open but would it have been taken ?