PDA

View Full Version : proof that fiat cr42 cockpit view is wrong



pdog1
05-03-2004, 03:15 PM
Something is not right here.

Take a look.

First a look outside from behind.
The red dots are on the lower cockpit bar.
See how the wing supports are up there over the cockpit bar. The lower cockpit bar does NOT overlap the wing or its inner support in this view.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

And now from inside, see the same red dots along the lower cockpit bar and the red box along the wing supports. See how the lower cockpit bar overlaps both the wing and its inner support beams.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f2.jpg

It is more easily visible when you press gunsight view, the lower cockpit bar should should not have the wing against the background, rather the clear blue sky as seen in the first pic from outside.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f3.jpg

So

[This message was edited by pdog1 on Mon May 03 2004 at 04:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by pdog1 on Mon May 03 2004 at 09:39 PM.]

pdog1
05-03-2004, 03:15 PM
Something is not right here.

Take a look.

First a look outside from behind.
The red dots are on the lower cockpit bar.
See how the wing supports are up there over the cockpit bar. The lower cockpit bar does NOT overlap the wing or its inner support in this view.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

And now from inside, see the same red dots along the lower cockpit bar and the red box along the wing supports. See how the lower cockpit bar overlaps both the wing and its inner support beams.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f2.jpg

It is more easily visible when you press gunsight view, the lower cockpit bar should should not have the wing against the background, rather the clear blue sky as seen in the first pic from outside.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f3.jpg

So

[This message was edited by pdog1 on Mon May 03 2004 at 04:03 PM.]

[This message was edited by pdog1 on Mon May 03 2004 at 09:39 PM.]

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 04:01 PM
Interesting...Compare pics here...

http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/cr42.php

http://oldwolf.myrice.com/italyaircraft/cr-42.htm

Top of pilot head seems to be above headrest.

Pilot's eye level seems same level as inner bars.

FB inner bars too high maybe?

pdog, can you make your BIG pics just links, this may be interesting thread to read without scrolling large pics

Also, your screenshots are best compared by clicking them as links in New Windows and
we can compare them side by side with just one click instead of scrolling up and down. Thanks.

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 04:04 PM
Don't anybody expect "better" forward view, the real CR.42 pics indicate *very* cramped view
forward under the wing, just like we have in FB.

pdog1
05-03-2004, 04:16 PM
i'd do that lexx if i could edit the mission, can't though, sorry

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 04:42 PM
Edit the post and take out the IMG code to turn the pics into links we can click (jpg opens in New Window) and
we can compare all by switching windows, like this...

External pdog ---> http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

...and we can read the thread then, it could get interesting.

pdog1
05-03-2004, 05:04 PM
ok its done

Nub_322Sqn
05-03-2004, 05:04 PM
Cockpit view is correct, it's the external 3D model that is incorrect.

The wing is too high on the 3D model.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 05:12 PM
I dunno, in this pic the pilot's eyes seem almost level with the inner bars...

---> http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/cr42.php

pdog may be onto something.

pdog1
05-03-2004, 05:44 PM
hell if anything the game model makes distance from nose to wing to short, and in cockpit view the wing seems to slant downwards instead of being straight.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f4.jpg

p1ngu666
05-03-2004, 08:39 PM
thats true http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
<123_GWood_JG123> NO SPAM!

Bearcat99
05-03-2004, 08:49 PM
Is that a guy or a chimpanzee flying the top one. Look at hi head!!! It looks like a kid!! I gotta tell ya.. you guys need a feckin patch real bad!! ROFLMAO!!! You got too much time on your hands.....

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 09:11 PM
lol I noticed that too

Bear:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is that a guy or a chimpanzee flying the top one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No Bear, that's an Italian. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif You know Oleg hates Italians.

LOL every 10 year old should have his own space fighter, um Biplane

little Norb http://www.sadgeezer.com/lexx/lex2-121.jpg
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif &gt; http://www.sadgeezer.com/lexx/lexx2-12.htm



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

pdog1
05-03-2004, 09:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by T-ONub_322Sqn:
Cockpit view is correct, it's the external 3D model that is incorrect.

The wing is too high on the 3D model.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no its the other way around.
The external 3d model is correct, the inside cockpit wing position is wrong.
Another view to the pilots line of sight.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f5.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-03-2004, 09:21 PM
Looks like you are onto something. Still, if so and its "fixed" the BAR may then help obscure what little forward view is left between fuselage and top wing. I dunno.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

pdog1
05-03-2004, 10:27 PM
I'd take the bar blocking my view over some big *** downwards slanting wing any day bro.
The wing should be straight, not slanting and downwards.

WUAF_Badsight
05-03-2004, 10:50 PM
the top wing isnt slanting down in FB

it looks like it is but that is the way the wing would look like if you too were sitting in the seat

the front edge of the wing would look lower than the rear edge

if anything the wing *might* be a tad too low

or

the wing support bars *might* be too cramped around the center foward line of sight

pdog1
05-03-2004, 11:16 PM
No.
Its just wrong.
Look at my pics again.
When your sitting in the back the lower bar should not be against the wing, it should be against the sky. The pilot has a clear line of sight when he is sitting down, the wing does not block or be positioned behind the lower bar.
I have more real pics to support this of parked planes and in flight and a 3 plan view from the side which clearly shows the line of sight.

See the lower bar is in the middle between the wing and cowling and the top bar rides just below the edge of the wing. In FB it does look like this when you are sitting in the cockpit the bars are ABOVE the wing, this is the problem, they should be below the wing.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/c1.jpg

pdog1
05-03-2004, 11:29 PM
See, bars BELOW wing.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/c2.jpg

This pic shows it better in flight.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/c3.jpg

And again this one.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/c4.jpg

One more for good measure, pay attention to the wingmans aircraft for a good view of the bars being below the wing.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/c6.jpg

pdog1
05-03-2004, 11:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
the top wing isnt slanting down in FB

it looks like it is but that is the way the wing would look like if you too were sitting in the seat

the front edge of the wing would look lower than the rear edge

if anything the wing *might* be a tad too low

or

the wing support bars *might* be too cramped around the center foward line of sight<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Look at this again.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

We do not have that view in cockpit, it should be that view, do you see it now.
That view is right behind the pilot, we see what he sees and we see a much better view than is represented in the cockpit view.

WUAF_Badsight
05-03-2004, 11:57 PM
what i do know is that the leading edge of the wing would appear lower when you sit in the cockpit of the real thing compared to the rear edge

how much it should appear can be calculated

is it the correct amount ?

starfighter1
05-03-2004, 11:59 PM
hi,
again.. I and some more repeat this the tousand times..
the camera view in this game engine design to virtual pilot is the main bug since Il-2.
call it the 'gnomish view'

in general the view is to low compare to real hight of pilots eye view in many planes.

The inside view is another than the outside design......but that is normal in many sims..

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

pdog1
05-04-2004, 12:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starfighter1:
hi,
again.. I and some more repeat this the tousand times..
the camera view in this game engine design to virtual pilot is the main bug since Il-2.
call it the 'gnomish view'

in general the view is to low compare to real hight of pilots eye view in many planes.

The inside view is another than the outside design......but that is normal in many sims..

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ah why yes... and giving to the biplane design of the fiat it suffers from the view even more than it should... just moving the wing up a bit would help though, dam

LeadSpitter_
05-04-2004, 01:19 AM
its becuase of the wierd fisheye lens effect in the pits. hat switch one up and compair. Its also why when you look left and right in the 109s and 190 the back wingroots show clipping of the external model. As you can see im sure the modeler has everything messured and lined up exactly but the lens effect is whats causing the prob.

theres otherproblems which is why oleg has put that huge bar on the 190 pit probally to prevent clipping from the fish eye lens thats why he will not change it.

i have many other photos but it dont matter and wont be changed because of the problem.
http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/fw190a8.jpg

http://img32.photobucket.com/albums/v97/acespace/190cockpit1.jpg

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

mike_espo
05-04-2004, 08:49 AM
pdog; while I may agree that the CR.42 view is somewhat wrong, bottom line is it probably wont be fixed if the FW 190 is any case example. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Ive gotten used to it and after a while you can even do pretty well with it. I now have no problems getting kills. I just map gunsight toggle and view toggles to my joystick throttle. It works great! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Anyway, buona fortuna!!!!

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

pdog1
05-04-2004, 10:04 AM
bah thats freakin typical... oh well.

p1ngu666
05-04-2004, 10:10 AM
unlikely to get fixed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i wonder if yak3 gear will be fixed now

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

pdog1
05-04-2004, 11:23 AM
bah, yak3 gear who cares

xanty
05-04-2004, 04:30 PM
Is it worth me getting involved into this? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh, well...the 3D is quite accurate and fits well in that drawing you showed. I have it too.
the camera sits at the height those photos you have shown, and it is as you see it on the game (more or less, depending on how tall the pilot was).

of course, the view is restricted, but what biplane isn't? No head movement, no leaning sidewides...and you get that. check the J8a/gladiator pit...it is a work of art, very accurate, and i am sure the 3D is a bit better than mine. But the view it's still quite restricted. And so it is with the I-153, even with the gull-like wings...


Find me better pics that show that the view is incorrect...until then, the 3D is as accurate as it gets.

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

xanty
05-04-2004, 05:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pdog1:
No.
Its just wrong.
Look at my pics again.
When your sitting in the back the lower bar should not be against the wing, it should be against the sky. The pilot has a clear line of sight when he is sitting down, the wing does not block or be positioned behind the lower bar.
I have more real pics to support this of parked planes and in flight and a 3 plan view from the side which clearly shows the line of sight.

See the lower bar is in the middle between the wing and cowling and the top bar rides just below the edge of the wing. In FB it does look like this when you are sitting in the cockpit the bars are ABOVE the wing, this is the problem, they should be below the wing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you be a bit more graphical? i have no idea what "bars" are you talking about...

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

Capt_Haddock
05-04-2004, 05:09 PM
Just listen to Xanty. The CR.42 cockpit and external models are both spot on. The view is restricted due to the natural perspective.

Back to school, you bande de Bachi-bouzouks! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/pics/cr42_view_01.jpg

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19bannerh.jpg
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19banner.jpg

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/eu_welcome.jpg

pdog1
05-04-2004, 05:46 PM
Look at the first 2 pictures i posted for bars.

I have been very graphical.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f2.jpg

Why can't you understand?

Why are you so biased?

Its bad enough the FM is seriously porked and you moan that you need "proof" blalalaa but where is plain as day proof something else but you are still blinded.

Im not talking about the exterior model but if you look from there behind the pilots seat you can CLEARLY see that the lower bar is not backdroped by the wing.

I'm not saying the cockpit or external models are wrong, you are not reading correctly.

I'm saying the wing is to LOW from the cockpit which has to do with how Ubi put the wing in, not how xanty modeled it.

And Haddock that proves absolutly nothing.

In the plan view the pilots eye is level with the lower bar. Do you see? And do you see in the cockpit pic the pilots eye level is BELOW the lower bar. Do you understand?

And comparing to other biplanes is again useless for both of them have better forward visibilty than the falco and the i153 even more because the pilot sits to high, hmm wonder why.

Fillmore
05-05-2004, 12:12 AM
I don't see that there is a problem either. I think maybe it is like the situation with parallel traintracks looking like they converge on a point if you are right there, but look more parallel from other perspectives.

If you make a line from the eye to the forwardmost part of the upper bar it will intersect the underside of the wing near the back. If you make a line from the eye to the underside of the front edge of the wing it will pass a little above the center of the front cockpit glass. This all seems to be the way it is exactly in all the pictures that I see here, both inside and outside the cockpit.

LEXX_Luthor
05-05-2004, 01:39 AM
pdog:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm saying the wing is to LOW from the cockpit which has to do with how Ubi put the wing in, not how xanty modeled it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You are trying to back out now? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif LOL sinhq was right, you are a funny comedian. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

I think he has a small but good point, the "bar" may could appear below the wing, of course then it obscures the forward view between wing and top of cockpit.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Capt_Haddock
05-05-2004, 02:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pdog1:
Look at the first 2 pictures i posted for bars.

I have been very graphical.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f1.jpg

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f2.jpg

Why can't you understand?

Why are you so biased?

Its bad enough the FM is seriously porked and you moan that you need "proof" blalalaa but where is plain as day proof something else but you are still blinded.

Im not talking about the exterior model but if you look from there behind the pilots seat you can CLEARLY see that the lower bar is not backdroped by the wing.

I'm not saying the cockpit or external models are wrong, you are not reading correctly.

I'm saying the wing is to LOW from the cockpit which has to do with how Ubi put the wing in, not how xanty modeled it.

And Haddock that proves absolutly nothing.

In the plan view the pilots eye is level with the lower bar. Do you see? And do you see in the cockpit pic the pilots eye level is BELOW the lower bar. Do you understand?

And comparing to other biplanes is again useless for both of them have better forward visibilty than the falco and the i153 even more because the pilot sits to high, hmm wonder why.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pdog, don't you have perspective at school? Education standards are dropping theses days... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1- In your first picture the point of view is FAR AWAY from the cockpit, the camera has a narrow field of view, and the perspective is therefore less evident.

2- In your second picture the point of view is CLOSE to the cockpit. The camera has a wide field of view and the perspective is far more exaggerated.

In both cases the cameras are in a different position altogether!, that's why you see different things in both images! Mystery solved http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mille millions de mille milliards de tonnerre de Brest!

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19bannerh.jpg
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19banner.jpg

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/eu_welcome.jpg

[This message was edited by Capt_Haddock on Wed May 05 2004 at 01:25 AM.]

Capt_Haddock
05-05-2004, 02:22 AM
Double post, sorry

Abbuzze
05-05-2004, 02:50 AM
Hope you have more luck than the 109 pilots http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All late 109 have a completly impossible headmovemant- no human being can perform it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/cockpits.jpg

Nice arguments here! Good postings go on! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I./JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/

http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/bilder/Ilegalsig.gif
couldnāĀ“t restist http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xanty
05-05-2004, 02:54 AM
1st, who is biased here? I asked simple questions, and I got a that...Oh, humanity...

Like Haddock so educatedly and graphically put, the points of view you are using are useless. Optics, that is all.

as well, since you so effusively say that UBi screwed and blablabla oleg, blablalba...wing is too low, well, let me tell you two things:

*The internal model uses the external wing
**The external wing i made it's slightly HIGHER than it should. So, we are actually getting a bit better than we should.

Now, ask any RL falco pilots (or any biplane pilots) if they can see much forwards with their head fixed back in their seat head-rest...The asnwer will be no.

Now, there is no infamous bar here...Oleg used exactly what I gave him. I used all the refferences I found on the Falco. Averaged the head position of th pilot, cross-refferenced blueprints, used the best i had, and that's it. 3D is like maths or technical drawing...you use your sources/numbers, you get your front/side/top views, converge lines and recreate the model. The results are accurate and scientific.
Now, of course, no game has a realistic eye simulation yet. NONE. till then, you get this.

if you are gonna keep whining, get your proof, showme when I did wrong. but stop the biased nonsense...I won't listen. if you can prove i did wrong, then we can talk, till then...no whines will make the 3D change.

http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/Cr42view.jpg

Amen

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

269GA-Veltro
05-05-2004, 04:12 AM
Pdog.......very interesting post, but take care of this: we have CR 42 in FB, a very beautifull Falco, thank to Xanty. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That it, thank you Xanty!

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

xanty
05-05-2004, 05:40 AM
Thanks Veltro. You make it sound a bit like a "threat"...:P

It is not that I like the restricted view myself...it is that Oleg, Ubi or me have nothing to do with it.

Some other views of a Falco...
http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/cr42_4st_01.jpg
http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/cr42_4st.jpg
http://www.arsmilitaris.org/pubblicazioni/AssiAMI/FiatCR42_Belgio_1940.jpg

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-05-2004, 07:46 AM
XANTY thanks, Photo shows eye level below bar, okay!

Diagram is great, but um...your purple line through the bar curves up to the wing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
but straight line would still hit wing I think.

No matter, next step is asking Oleg to make Option to turn OFF top wing for computer
pursuit dogfighters ("pdogs"), but then Polikarpov turned off top wing in I~15 to stop
pilot Whining but they Whined about forward side view so Po turned wing on for I~152 but
pilots Whined again so he turned wing off again in I~153. History rewhines and plays again.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

269GA-Veltro
05-05-2004, 08:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xanty:
Thanks Veltro. You make it sound a bit like a "threat"...:P

It is not that I like the restricted view myself...it is that Oleg, Ubi or me have nothing to do with it.

Some other views of a Falco...
http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/cr42_4st_01.jpg
http://www.finn.it/regia/immagini/fiat/cr42_4st.jpg
http://www.arsmilitaris.org/pubblicazioni/AssiAMI/FiatCR42_Belgio_1940.jpg

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a "threat"......simple a little http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Don't worry Xanty, absolutely you don't need to give us explanations about you work.....it's great! Really, your CR 42 is a work of art.....i love it and i would like have some other versions, first of all your CR 42 AS (very good for desertic map). What we need is the italian version with G 50 gunsight (2 circle with 3 points inside); throttle is ok, pull to increase and push to decrease power.

I don't know if is possible, but really we could have:

1 AEP CR 42 (italian version)
2 CR 42 AS (anti-sand filter)
3 CR 42 AS "bombe alari" (anti-sand filter and bomb-stations, fixed in the italian version), all with G 50 gunsight.

Waiting for C 202/200....it would be a nice present from Oleg...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

This would be great, with and without bomb stations.
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/CR42BOMBE_ALARI.jpg

P.S.: pdog.....be patient. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

[This message was edited by Veltro on Wed May 05 2004 at 07:59 AM.]

LeadSpitter_
05-05-2004, 09:02 AM
http://www.gavs.it/news/immagini/cr42_4.jpg

http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/fiat42/cr424.jpg

http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/fiat42/v5.jpg

http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/fiat42/cr421.jpg

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Italy/images/CR%2042%20cockpit.jpg

http://aircraftwalkaround.hobbyvista.com/fiat42/v5.jpg

btw couldnt you make a cr.32 from this very easy the cockpits are only slightly different

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Wed May 05 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

pdog1
05-05-2004, 09:10 AM
xanty, im not saying you did anything wrong.
its the position of the wing, clearly hosed, i've posted all the proof and pictures that i can and its no longer humanly possible to convince some people of it, some belive me that the view is hosed, but most don't.
Seems its the same thing with the 190, just the way the game engine is and well i can except that for now because oleg didn't change the 190, hell lol more chances of me getting laid than he fixing the cr42 pit.
Oh well there's always BoB to see how much worse the view can get in the falco.
ah see leadspitters pictures prove it even more... the bars are below the wings but when you sit in FB the bars are both above you, the pilot seat should be higher OR the wing should be raised, kinda like 190.
i don't know maybe this point i was trying to make wasn't clear enough in my pictures...

[This message was edited by pdog1 on Wed May 05 2004 at 08:19 AM.]

pdog1
05-05-2004, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Veltro:
Pdog.......very interesting post, but take care of this: we have CR 42 in FB, a very beautifull Falco, thank to Xanty. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

That it, thank you Xanty!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes i know, but it would be even more beautifull if the wing was correct position from cockpit view.

xanty
05-05-2004, 12:10 PM
"Yes i know, but it would be even more beautifull if the wing was correct position from cockpit view."

Well, are you listening? It is in the correct possition. What part of my last post didn't you understand?
1. Wing from cockpit is the SAME as from the outside
2. the outside wing is in the coirrect possiton in respect of the blueprints I have.

Abraxa
05-05-2004, 12:54 PM
this is from the original CR42 manual.

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/re004.jpg

BBB_Abraxa

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/Data/veltro.jpg

pdog1
05-05-2004, 01:15 PM
its not the same and the outside view doesn't matter anyway. The outside wing is not the issue, it is probably correct, its the position of the wing in cockpit view that is wrong.

heres another side view from the manual.

if this doesn't make it visible and like all the other pictures i posted before you should really go see an eye doctor.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/pdog109/f10.jpg

Abraxa
05-05-2004, 02:19 PM
the doctor says he sees a red X, like I do http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BBB_Abraxa

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/Data/veltro.jpg

Abraxa
05-05-2004, 02:19 PM
ok, fixed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BBB_Abraxa

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/Data/veltro.jpg

pdog1
05-05-2004, 02:42 PM
no RED X please haha

xanty
05-05-2004, 03:27 PM
Well, I have no time to discuss this anymore. If you find better convincing proof that there is an issue with how the model is done or used, post them.

These are the drawings superimposed on the 3D model. they are used to set the camera at the eye-height...
http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/1.jpg
http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/2.jpg
http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/3.jpg
http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/4.jpg
Short video: Requires QuickTime (www.apple.com/quicktime (http://www.apple.com/quicktime))
-this takes the camera point of view (POV) as it is in the game, which is exactly at the same height as it is seen and determined above (from blue-prints and the pics).
-As you can see, the camera moves away from the POV of the internal camera (same as game) and shows that the wing is the same and in the same place as the one seen from the pilot view (same camera)...
-since the external view is accurate (seen above drawings) and the camera is set to the height and possition as seen on drawings and pics, we have a perfect match...
Press here for movie (2.9Mbs) (http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/external.mov)

[This message was edited by xanty on Wed May 05 2004 at 02:41 PM.]

Nub_322Sqn
05-05-2004, 03:57 PM
Well, it can't get any clearer then that Xantry.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

Capt_Haddock
05-05-2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pdog1:
The outside wing is not the issue, it is probably correct, its the position of the wing in cockpit view that is wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh dear... Pdog, are you reading Xanty's posts?

The wing in the cockpit view is the same as in the outside view. Exactly the same 3D model in exactly the same position! That's simply the way the IL2 engine works.

The cockpit view is correct. I repeat: The cockpit view is correct.

Please, read something about perspective before complaining. Xanty is being extremely patient with this...

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19bannerh.jpg
http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/F19banner.jpg

http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/haddock/sig/eu_welcome.jpg

LeadSpitter_
05-05-2004, 04:24 PM
Haddock and Xanaty when are you going to fight each other using each others plane and make a track best of 5.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

pdog1
05-05-2004, 06:23 PM
hmm nice little video one problem though the pilots seat or head position is still to low or should say his "Eyes", even if you look at the gladiator cockpit look how the wing even blocks and sits in front of the cockpit bar but the wing doesn't appear to "slant down" its straight as it should be as the cr42 wing should be straight to but the glad pit is higher so thats why and um yes.

Spudkopf
05-05-2004, 07:04 PM
G'ady all

Interesting thread, it's good to get an insight from those who originated these works of art (many thanks to Haddock and Xanaty).

Now I'm not taking sides here, just presenting the evidence from both camps for you to draw your own conclusions.

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/langlotz/305%20images/cr42.gif

Spud

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/langlotz/305%20images/6STG2.gif

xanty
05-05-2004, 07:07 PM
Well, the camera it's at the same height as the pics you offered as proof...What do you want to say? that those pics are now wrong?
In AEP's Cr.42, the pilot view and gunsight view are quite different. The gunsight view is quite close to the gunsight (moves the head.POV quite close to the gunsight), and makes everything (including wing) to appear too close/big. However, if you fly the plane in normal mode (pilot view, relaxed, as in the pics) the view is much more decent and offers a wider field of vision.

I can't comment on the Gladiator as it is a plane that I don't know as insight as the falco. In the 3D the wings look like are lower, the pilot view higher than the Falco and the wing slightly slanted down, which improves the vision (Maybe the british did a better design?). Also, the gunsight/pilot view are very different to how the Cr.42 has them. In the Gladiator the head doesn't move forwards as much as the Cr.42 pilot does. however the i-153 is similar to the Cr.42 camera movement, and it has similar issues (in gunsight view the field of vision is much reduced)

I invite you to try what it should be like....fly/seek/maneouver in pilot view, then set for the kill and get to gunsight view to aim closer... Works for me every time. Also, combined with wide/normal view, the possibilities are good enough to fly even in cockpit only/no externals...

I have mapped the gunsight vide/pilot view (Ctrl+F1) to my JStick as well as the increase/decrease FOV (normal/wide) and I can manage OK. I just managed to shoot down 4 LaGG-3s (in one go) and I fare quite Ok against Glads and I-16/153...
Now, if only the falco had better MGs....

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

p1ngu666
05-05-2004, 10:15 PM
!!!!! just had a great idea
xanty and haddock/glad team get together and make swordfish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

pdog1
05-05-2004, 10:24 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by p1ngu666:
!!!!! just had a great idea
xanty and haddock/glad team get together and make swordfish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif
[QUOTE]

hey man thats not a bad idea, we could finally have a real torpedo bomber.

269GA-Veltro
05-06-2004, 01:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
!!!!! just had a great idea
xanty and haddock/glad team get together and make swordfish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bump! Really a great idea!

Swordfish!!!!!

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

starfighter1
05-06-2004, 02:10 AM
hi,
indeed best idea....
and I guess also for new design/fix of FW-190 forward cockpit and gunsight view...and some more planes like P-47 ...
but anyway: a reprogramming of this 'buggy' (low virtual pilot view ) camera view sytem in game is necessary too.
as xanty indirect pointed out in one comment above...'eye height' and view system in game !
and I would point out : blueprints are one side, real pilots view another side and the transformation of the cockpit view design into games camera view (Il2/FB use a view system to all planes) another story. (re to discussion at netwings.org/third party design guidelines of Il-2/FB to 3DMax)

in future pc-sims we need more accurate height of virtual pilots view and a flexible pilots view camera system including a adjustment of pilots seat compare to different planes and of course parallel moving with the weapons line in heiht of gunsights view /



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Veltro:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
!!!!! just had a great idea
xanty and haddock/glad team get together and make swordfish http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bump! Really a great idea!

Swordfish!!!!!

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
http://www.269ga.it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.eichhorn.ws/assets/images/thunderbird.gif

xanty
05-06-2004, 03:30 AM
Hi all:

Here is a track that shows how to deal with the view system on the CR.42. I hope you find it usefull.
8 Hurricanes + 8 Gladiator Mk.II VS 8 Cr.42 + 4 Fiat G.50
I managed to down 6 planes, including one Hurricane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

track: click here (http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/cr.42_track1.zip)

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

F19_Orheim
05-06-2004, 05:15 AM
I am still amazed how "some" people can be so rude...


http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19bannerA.jpg
http://216.12.202.106/~f19vs/F19banner.jpg

LeadSpitter_
05-06-2004, 06:11 AM
what pdogs saying is the pilots eye should be lined up at gunsite level. Also if you notice in the real photos the pilots head does not come over the back headrest but it does on the model putting the bar there. Your model is perfectly right in scale but the pilot head and eye level is a bit off, look at the real photo vs the eyelevel diagram you posted

http://www.silence.plus.com/stuff/views/4.jpg

the headrest position is also a support like a roll bar in case the fiat flipped over / armored.

http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com/Italy/images/CR%2042%20cockpit.jpg

Dont you just wish this game had seat postions that moved like in janes wwii fighters where you can raise and lower the seat, left right forwards and back.




http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

[This message was edited by LeadSpitter_ on Thu May 06 2004 at 05:20 AM.]

pdog1
05-06-2004, 06:31 AM
yeah the way its now your head would get pancaked lol...oy

xanty
05-06-2004, 06:50 AM
for your information, the 3D pilot is about 2 meters/6.5 feet in heigh (it's a german pilot, didn't u see?), and his head it's a bit too big, that is why.

However, if u look at that pic, the real pilot has his eye sight even lower...,.maybe I should lower it to THAT eye level?

And if your plane flips, well, you would crouch, wouldn't you? Besides, the tail fin will prevent any squashing...

Just a q: Leadspitter, how many times have u flown the Falco?

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

269GA-Veltro
05-06-2004, 07:32 AM
OT but.....Xanty and Haddock go here please.

http://www.netwings.org/dcforum/DCForumID43/975.html

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

mike_espo
05-06-2004, 08:03 AM
I love the cockpit of the CR.42. Fantastico! Bravo Xanty!! True, at first the wing bothered me, but I just mapped the gunsight toggle and view toggles to my HOTAS throttle and no problems! In fact, I now can get kills with the CR.42 on a regular basis. It just takes some getting used to.

This debate is pointless. The view, if incorrect will in all probably not be fixed.

Just deal with it. It is far more important that the FM of the Falco is corrected. The spin is rediculous! The fuel consuption is wrong also. Max range is only 550km instead of 780km.

I hope Oleg and team will correct this. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

[This message was edited by mike_espo on Thu May 06 2004 at 07:36 AM.]

269GA-Maxmars
05-06-2004, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xanty:
for your information, the 3D pilot is about 2 meters/6.5 feet in heigh (it's a german pilot, didn't u see?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, we are ruling out most southern Italians! This is racism! Moderator!!1!11!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

p1ngu666
05-06-2004, 11:43 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
190 pilot modeled on dwarf? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
sorry couldnt resist http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

pdog1
05-06-2004, 01:28 PM
Dwarf, no.
Umpa Lumpa, yes.

http://www.howcool.com/UnfamousHoodies/UMPALUMPA.jpg

LeadSpitter_
05-06-2004, 11:05 PM
Not much, maybe 30-40 times, for a couple hours. Im the guy who always gos to the falco when everyone and thier mother all jump in the gladiator and i153.

Its not that bad, its definatly an underdog to the gladiator and p11 tho

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

269GA-Veltro
05-07-2004, 01:43 AM
Do you remember Janes "WW2 Fighters"? You could also go up, and go down in the cockpit; we could choose the cockpit'sposition we prefered.

This, i mean, wuold be a good solution also for FB. No more question about FW 190 ecc. ecc.. Is true, the pilot's height is important in this kinde of "problems".

269GA~Veltro
http://ourworld.cs.com/VeltroF/VELTROVELTROVELTRO.JPG
www.269ga.it (http://www.269ga.it)

pdog1
05-09-2004, 01:06 PM
maybe in BoB that cockpit change will be modeled in engine but i doubt it

mike_espo
05-10-2004, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pdog1:
maybe in BoB that cockpit change will be modeled in engine but i doubt it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Possiamo solomente sperare!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-10-2004, 09:00 AM
CR.42 waaay outclimbs both J8A and P11c and has much better high altitude performance.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

mike_espo
05-10-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
CR.42 waaay outclimbs both J8A and P11c and has much better high altitude performance.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish _"Gladiator"_ listed as _J8A_ _...in Aces Expansion Pack_


_"You will still have FB , you will lose _nothing_"_ ~WUAF_Badsight
_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed Lexx, but have you ever tried to down a P.11? I got screen shots of at least 30+ 12.77mm Breda ammo going through the pilot and engine in arcade mode and the P.11 merrily flies on! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

That thing is a tank!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

The gladiator is not too tough to kill, assuming you can get into firing position. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
05-10-2004, 10:05 AM
Yes P11c is a tough walnut to crack open.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif