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XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:19 PM
So 2 days ago I met a Bismarck surviver - he was in his 80s signing autographs. He said the crew bombed the ship so the British would not get hold of it. And he said he did not expect the war to start in sept 39 when he signed up in april. Anyway I shook his hand at the end and I am jewish, now I am thinking if I was right to do so. I know my grandparents would kill me... Thoughts?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:19 PM
So 2 days ago I met a Bismarck surviver - he was in his 80s signing autographs. He said the crew bombed the ship so the British would not get hold of it. And he said he did not expect the war to start in sept 39 when he signed up in april. Anyway I shook his hand at the end and I am jewish, now I am thinking if I was right to do so. I know my grandparents would kill me... Thoughts?

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:22 PM
The order to blow it up was one of the most stupid thing I`ve heard in WWII.

Did you tell him you`re Jewish?

"degustibus non disputandum"

<center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

<center>"Weder Tod noch Teufel!"</font>[/B]</center> (http://www.jzg23.de>[B]<font)

XyZspineZyX
07-20-2003, 11:55 PM
no of course not.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 12:03 AM
So I heard. The Titanic finder found Bismarck and the saw no holes that motivated a sinking. The ships was burning from bow to back and the brittish planned to enter her. Bismarcks voyage was en exampel of that Germany had no tradition with fighting capital ships.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 12:26 AM
- Anyway I shook
- his hand at the end and I am jewish, now I am
- thinking if I was right to do so. I know my
- grandparents would kill me... Thoughts?
-

I´m sure that he was a soldier (sailor), and as such no politician (nazi) nor a henchman.



============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 12:34 AM
Have any of you read "BattleShip Bismarck A Survivor's Story" by Baron von Mullenheim Rechberg? He was the highest ranking survivor when the Bismarck sank. Terrific book. Germany had a well established naval tradition. Anyone ever heard of the Battle of Jutland?



http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 12:35 AM
Over 80% of the armed forces in germany in WW2 probably didnt agree with the Nazi view. They had orders to fight for their contry, and they fought. Its yet another example of a smal minorty ruling a larger body. I can garauntee that not all soldier in Iraq agree with George bush, but they fight like they are told to. Doesnt mean they all think like GW

http://www.geocities.com/bs87cr/Wurger2.txt

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 01:03 AM
Loofy2 wrote:
- So 2 days ago I met a Bismarck surviver - he was in
- his 80s signing autographs. He said the crew bombed
- the ship so the British would not get hold of it.
- And he said he did not expect the war to start in
- sept 39 when he signed up in april. Anyway I shook
- his hand at the end and I am jewish, now I am
- thinking if I was right to do so. I know my
- grandparents would kill me... Thoughts?
-


I'd look upon it this way:

Did it matter to you when you shook his hand? If so, you were probably wrong shaking his hand in the first place.
If not, I think he appreciated the common courtesy in your gesture.
I doubt -though I cannot look inside anyones head- that you being jewish would have been of any importance.
What would have been the point?





-------------------------------------

A superior pilot may be defined as one who stays out of trouble by using his superior judgement, to avoid situations which might require the use of his superior skills.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 02:25 AM
carguy_ wrote:
- The order to blow it up was one of the most stupid
- thing I`ve heard in WWII.
-
- Did you tell him you`re Jewish?
-
- "degustibus non disputandum"
-
- <center>http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg
-
- <center><a href=http://www.jzg23.de><font
- color=white>"Weder Tod noch
- Teufel!"</font></center></a>

not exactly. the ship had 2 choices either sink or be captures technology (the whole outter of the ship was trashed anyway so why not, its not like it could of gotten anywhere



Death is only the beginning

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 02:52 AM
They also said that history channel's Bismarck was baloney. I can't argue with them I guess.

I dunno about it mattering, just in case I'll email some rabbi I can find on the net.

XyZspineZyX
07-21-2003, 05:56 AM
IMHO the decision to scuttle the Bismarck was not unreasonable - she was lost anyway, better to rest beneath the waves than be the victors' trophy.

Capt Langsdorff's handling of Admiral Graf Spee at the battle of the river Plate is perhaps a better subject for armchair criticism.

Cheers

Athos

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~athosd/mypic3.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:33 AM
Seeing as they sent HMS Doreschester in to launch torpedos after HMS Rodney and King georgeV had turned away there was no thought of capturing or boarding the Bismarck plus that fact they were worried about german aircover and u boats being sent to help her.
As for should you have shaken hands with the suvivor...Absolutly!! He was just a youg sailor fighting his ship as any other would have done.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 02:48 AM
BS87 wrote:
- Over 80% of the armed forces in germany in WW2
- probably didnt agree with the Nazi view.

Give me a break! Hitler didn't gain power in a coup. He enjoyed overwhelming popular support. Seeing as his anti-Jewish sentiment was a huge part of his policies (Nuremburg Laws) it's safe to assume that most Germans were behind the Nazis 100%

I don't believe the Germans as a hole are evil. I do believe the Germans as a hole are responsible for what happened.




<center> http://www.4yourfuture.net/handshake.gif


"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 03:04 AM
Ygeorgeo76 wrote:
-
- I don't believe the Germans as a hole are evil. I do
- believe the Germans as a hole are responsible for
- what happened.

You're either young, uneducated or both.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~jkinley/rcafpost.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:49 AM
"Give me a break! Hitler didn't gain power in a coup. He enjoyed overwhelming popular support"

Hmm. I'm afraid you have bought the popular version of events, but the most accurate documentary evidence is far different.

The following is an extract from Adolph Hitler: The Psycopathic God by Robert G L Waite (Da Capo Press, 1993). It is a fascinating read and I thoroughly recommend it.

"He was not voted into power by the German people, nor did he seize power.....Political power was handed to him as a result of a sordid political deal.
He had tried 3 different ways to attain his goal. First, he had sought to seize power by a coup d'etat in 1923. Second, he had tried to win a mandate from the German people; but he failed to win the simple majority he had promised President von Hindenburg. The best he could do in the summer of 1932 was to get 37.4% of the vote. And even after attaining the chancellorship, profiting from the Reichstag fire, and then utilising all the wiles of Goebbels' propaganda machine, his own brilliant demagoguery, and the intimidating power of his Storm Troopers - even after all that, Hitler could get only 43.9% of the vote. A majority of the German people still witheld their confidence from him. True, they had given him more votes than anyone else, but not a majority." (p344)

Waite then goes on to explain how he achieved his goal of power, a perverse confluence of events including, of all things, a request by Cardinal Pacelli, later pope Pius XII, to make special accommodations with Hitler. Various political parties, in hoping to achieve their own ends, inadvertantly delivered power to Hitler.

As to the comment about being ignorant, ALL people are ignorant until educated. Telling someone they are ignorant is worse than useless and speaks more about the person doing the telling than the person being told.

Finally, with repsect to the original post, I don't think the fact that you are Jewish is at all relevant to shaking that man's hand. The fact is that a great nation descended into barbarism through the skilled manipulation of a few. The same was occurring in the Soviet Union under Stalin. Soon the whole world caught the bug and terrible deeds were done on all sides with all sorts of self-serving justifications produced. For example, Doenitz (spelling?) got 10 years in Spandau for his role in unrestricted submarine warfare. The Germans did NOT commence this policy from the outset of hostilities, but came to it later. The USA, however, DID use unrestricted sub warfare against the Japanese from day 1. I don't recall Adm. Charles Lockwood being in a cell alongside him.....

One thing I have seen and read in all interviews with survivors of these events is the terrible emotional scars they carry to this day. There is every chance this man would be further haunted by what was done to so many people by his country. The best we can do is hope this madness never gets loose again.

I would hope your shaking his hand might be seen as a hopeful event, not one about which you should feel any guilt.

Cheers

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 11:53 AM
Hmm talking about dumb-but-still-popular gun-toting heads of state I personally think GW Bush is rapidly getting into the Hitler-Stalin group. He has a C-camp in Guantanamo, Cuba and has attacked several independent countries with profit in mind. More to come I recon. Iran has some oil (also control over the hormuz strait) so its a logical next step..Nkorea on the other hand is not that lucrative because if u "liberate" it u end up with tens of millions of really hungry ppl. Cant make gasoline out of em so Iran it is /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Nothing bad about shaking the hand of an elderly man, I REALLY hope this is the case with the Jewish also. Being a sailor in the Bismark doesnt make him a nazi and being a jewish guy doesnt make u an oppressor in gaza. ppl should really start to get over stereotyping as todays world is all about surround /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The gas has been poured, someone lit it up plz

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 12:58 PM
yes Hitlers NSDAP never got the majority of votes...


http://nibis.ni.schule.de/~rs-leer/gesch/ge0012.htm

Even in 1933 with nonfree elections

KPD+SPD - Comunists-Socialdemocrats together 30%
Zentrum - Similar to US Republicans 11%

So if you read the next time this stupid Nazi "Untermensch-stuff" keep in mind, that at least 30% of all Germans in 1933, were "follower" of Marx and Lenin

JG53 PikAs Abbuzze
I./Gruppe

http://www.jg53-pikas.de/
http://mitglied.lycos.de/p123/Ani_pikasbanner_langsam.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 04:07 PM
@ diabolicus: well put.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 05:08 PM
K, let me see if I understand this...

You write:

"Hmm talking about dumb-but-still-popular gun-toting heads of state I personally think GW Bush is rapidly getting into the Hitler-Stalin group. He has a C-camp in Guantanamo, Cuba and has attacked several independent countries with profit in mind. More to come I recon. Iran has some oil (also control over the hormuz strait) so its a logical next step..Nkorea on the other hand is not that lucrative because if u "liberate" it u end up with tens of millions of really hungry ppl. Cant make gasoline out of em so Iran it is."


And then write this:


"ppl should really start to get over stereotyping as todays world is all about surround."


You unbelieveably hypocritical tool. You call my president the equivalent of Stalin and then criticize people for stereotyping.

I'm supposed to take from this piece of written garbage that people who supported Bush's run for office (approximately 50% of the US population), and those who support him now (OVER 50% - watch what happens next election) are now unwitting or even willing supporters of Stalinist Communism or Naziism.

Next time Bush mows down 6,000,000 or so Jews or twice that number of his OWN CITIZENS you can have an opinion - until then I fear that you are beneath the required IQ for posting on the internet and should have your connection terminated.



Concerning the old man and the handshake:

I imagine that giving some measure of forgiveness or understanding to a man that had a very difficult life in the service, and may to this day regret what went on in Germany wouldn't be a bad thing.

Karma says it will probably come back to you in spades, if you believe in it.


************************************************** ******

I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you very much.


"If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 06:29 PM
georgeo76 wrote:
-
- BS87 wrote:
-- Over 80% of the armed forces in germany in WW2
-- probably didnt agree with the Nazi view.
-
- Give me a break! Hitler didn't gain power in a coup.
- He enjoyed overwhelming popular support. Seeing as
- his anti-Jewish sentiment was a huge part of his
- policies (Nuremburg Laws) it's safe to assume that
- most Germans were behind the Nazis 100%
-
- I don't believe the Germans as a hole are evil. I do
- believe the Germans as a hole are responsible for
- what happened.
-
-
-
You shuld know that hittler gain power thanks the polits the british and french took against germany afther ww1, they step on them and make them starve, and here you have a guy who says he will make them get their revange who was a ww1 solider ad wunded in action, i realy think he lost it with all that bloon in the trench, but the only countris whose fault is of making ww2 to happen was france and great britain, dont let them fool you with that that propaganda, for example Look at USA, their war on terrorism, who suported the taliban in afganistan agaisnt the soviets? USA who suported saddam to gains power? USA,who makes wars based on fake info realease to the press, usa and great britain, war on terrorism, why dont the usa condem pkistan and saudi arabia? and make war agaisnt them? if they are the rpinsipal promover of terrorisms, nuclear wepons, i am more worried about the usa and russia than little countrys north Korea, why dont the usa make russia destroy all nukes? not only a few? (i dont have bithing agiants russia) it is pure propaganda just like hittler used..

besides the bismark could have been sink by the own germans, as it was topedo prooff supoustly, it was not the only time that desmans senk by them self their ship, there was another dont know witch one that was spoted by 2 allied battle ships and they damage the german BS but they got awaym and then afther getting to a port they decided to take the ship to a deeper place and sink it as they tough the allies were going afther them, they prefered to destroy it than have it sink, why do they destroy planes left begine enemy lines? because it has has top secret documents or tecnology as simple as that, the british would have love to get their hands on the bismark decoder machines

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 07:03 PM
SpearchuckerJ wrote:
- K, let me see if I understand this...

You don't.


- You write:
-
- "Hmm talking about dumb-but-still-popular gun-toting
- heads of state I personally think GW Bush is rapidly
- getting into the Hitler-Stalin group. He has a
- C-camp in Guantanamo, Cuba and has attacked several
- independent countries with profit in mind. More to
- come I recon. Iran has some oil (also control over
- the hormuz strait) so its a logical next
- step..Nkorea on the other hand is not that lucrative
- because if u "liberate" it u end up with tens of
- millions of really hungry ppl. Cant make gasoline
- out of em so Iran it is."
-
-
- And then write this:
-
-
- "ppl should really start to get over stereotyping as
- todays world is all about surround."
-
-
- You unbelieveably hypocritical tool. You call my
- president the equivalent of Stalin and then
- criticize people for stereotyping.

Umm I didn't stereotype anyone fool. Grab a dictionary.

-
- I'm supposed to take from this piece of written
- garbage that people who supported Bush's run for
- office (approximately 50% of the US population), and
- those who support him now (OVER 50% - watch what
- happens next election) are now unwitting or even
- willing supporters of Stalinist Communism or
- Naziism.

Hmm I guess approximately 50% is democracy in the land that claims to be most democratic.. and forces that same stuff into other countries as well. Bush didn't win last election if u count all votes. I really laugh at your farce of a democracy.
Also creating military problems and solving them always gives a boost
-
- Next time Bush mows down 6,000,000 or so Jews or
- twice that number of his OWN CITIZENS you can have
- an opinion - until then I fear that you are beneath
- the required IQ for posting on the internet and
- should have your connection terminated.

So my IQ goes up when GW does those things? IQ needs to be over a certain limit in the US b4 u are allowed to have internet?´Back to the matter, Stalin, Hitler and Bush all had/have concentration camps so I feel like it's a just comparison. BTW the US is the only country that has used a nuke and also did it twice and even did it on civilian targets both times. Bush has yet to top that off.

-
-
-
- Concerning the old man and the handshake:
-
- I imagine that giving some measure of forgiveness or
- understanding to a man that had a very difficult
- life in the service, and may to this day regret what
- went on in Germany wouldn't be a bad thing.
-

Maybe u didn't understand but I said it's OK to shake hands http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I guess not all ppl in the states can read afterall.


- Karma says it will probably come back to you in
- spades, if you believe in it.
-

Yes I believe that what u leave behing u find ahead.. so I think that Bush will find a huge poopoosandwich later and he has to eat it all.


-
- **************************************************
- ******
-
- I'll take my car with 382 fully forged cubic inches
- of fire-breathing, MPFI, nitrous sniffing, all
- aluminum, tire-roasting Chevrolet power, thank you
- very much.

You're welcome
-
-
- "If you can turn, you aren't going fast enough."

I agree. Please go REALLY fast on a winding road.







Message Edited on 07/22/0306:45PM by Bush_the_Dumber

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:21 PM
hooo boy... this thread is starting to smell!!!
how far are we from Denmark? (that's a reference to Shakespeare, not to Denmark... for those thin of skin and quick to keyboard)

Cold_gambler ducks quickly out of here-

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:29 PM
Bush_the_Dumber wrote:
- -
- Back to the matter,
- Stalin, Hitler and Bush all had/have concentration
- camps so I feel like it's a just comparison.


You overlook Roosevelt. He had concentration camps for Americans of Japanese. German, and Italian descent. Bush's camp is tame by comparison.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 09:55 PM
zugfuhrer wrote:
- So I heard. The Titanic finder found Bismarck and
- the saw no holes that motivated a sinking. The ships
- was burning from bow to back and the brittish
- planned to enter her. Bismarcks voyage was en
- exampel of that Germany had no tradition with
- fighting capital ships.


Were he alive, Admiral Franz Hipper of Scouting Group 1 (WW1 Imperial German Navy) might disagree with you on this topic, as would the survivors of the three British battle-cruisers which his squadron destroyed at Jutland.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:00 PM
Diabolicus,


Nicely put.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:06 PM
Abbuzze wrote:
- yes Hitlers NSDAP never got the majority of votes...


True.

But the NSDAP did in fact win a plurality of votes. In other nations (Israel for example), the political method is for the winner by plurality to make a coalition with a minor party to claim joint majority status and then lead the government.

IIRC, Clinton won twice in the USA with pluralities.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2003, 10:33 PM
Aztek_Eagle wrote:
--
--
--
- You shuld know that hittler gain power thanks the
- polits the british and french took against germany
- afther ww1, they step on them and make them starve,
- and here you have a guy who says he will make them
- get their revange who was a ww1 solider ad wunded in
- action,

Pretty much agree here.


- but the only countris whose fault is
- of making ww2 to happen was france and great
- britain,

If you are referring to the harsh penalties of the Treaty of Versailles, I agree. Otherwise, no.



- for example Look at USA, their war on
- terrorism, who suported the taliban in afganistan
- agaisnt the soviets?

The Taliban did not come into existence until well after the Afghan War. During that war, the USA provided support to a variety of various warlords and organizations fighting against the Soviet occupation. This is exactly like what the USSR, China, N Korea, and the Warsaw Pact countries did in Vietnam.



- USA who suported saddam to
- gains power?

The USA did NOT support the seizure of power by Saddam Hussein. The USA, through the CIA, supported the Baathist Party takeover of Iraq in the early 60's. The Baathists were anti-Communist and the USA did not look any further than this point. At that time Hussein was just another member of the party.



- USA,who makes wars based on fake info
- realease to the press, usa and great britain, war on
- terrorism, why dont the usa condem pkistan and saudi
- arabia? and make war agaisnt them?

If you really believe that there were no decisive reasons for the Hussein regime to be ended, or that they possessed WMD, then I would refer you to the citizens of Iran, Kuwait, and Iraq proper. They can fill you in on the details which you seem to have missed.

As far as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (and Iran) are concerned, a war is being waged against the terroristis aspects of these regimes. It is just not being done with American bombs and guns.



if they are the
- rpinsipal promover of terrorisms, nuclear wepons, i
- am more worried about the usa and russia than little
- countrys north Korea, why dont the usa make russia
- destroy all nukes? not only a few? (i dont have
- bithing agiants russia) it is pure propaganda just
- like hittler used..

Check and see the figures about how many nuclear weapons and ICBMs the USA and the CIS member states have actually eliminated in the past fourteen years. I think you might be surprised. In any case, worry about North Korea - they are the ones who every day threaten to attack their neighbors.



-
- besides the bismark could have been sink by the own
- germans, as it was topedo prooff supoustly, it was
- not the only time that desmans senk by them self
- their ship, there was another dont know witch one
- that was spoted by 2 allied battle ships and they
- damage the german BS but they got awaym and then
- afther getting to a port they decided to take the
- ship to a deeper place and sink it as they tough the
- allies were going afther them, they prefered to
- destroy it than have it sink, why do they destroy
- planes left begine enemy lines? because it has has
- top secret documents or tecnology as simple as that,
- the british would have love to get their hands on
- the bismark decoder machines

Now back to being on topic ..... ;-) ..... I agree that the crew very likely scuttled the BISMARCK. It was standard operating procedure in all navies to do so under such circumstances. If they had not, the British still would have sunk her in any case.



- "Never forget the past so we dont make the same
- mistakes in the future"

Quite agree. Just make sure that the past you remember is what truly happened.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 05:57 AM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Aztek_Eagle wrote:
---
---
---
-- You shuld know that hittler gain power thanks the
-- polits the british and french took against germany
-- afther ww1, they step on them and make them starve,
-- and here you have a guy who says he will make them
-- get their revange who was a ww1 solider ad wunded in
-- action,
-
- Pretty much agree here.
-
-
-- but the only countris whose fault is
-- of making ww2 to happen was france and great
-- britain,
-
- If you are referring to the harsh penalties of the
- Treaty of Versailles, I agree. Otherwise, no.

YEA i am talking about the freaky versailles thing where the britsh and the french left the usa out of it, there were not going to be more colonations afther ww1, but what the french and britsh did was to take over the german colonies and other stuff, not caring about the league of nations, there were about 12 agreements? i think, no colonins, no secret alliances and stuff like that.

-
-
-
-- for example Look at USA, their war on
-- terrorism, who suported the taliban in afganistan
-- agaisnt the soviets?
-
- The Taliban did not come into existence until well
- after the Afghan War. During that war, the USA
- provided support to a variety of various warlords
- and organizations fighting against the Soviet
- occupation. This is exactly like what the USSR,
- China, N Korea, and the Warsaw Pact countries did in
- Vietnam.
-

well i may not explain my self that well, the usa suported the osama for example, full afganishtan of more wepons and then leave them by them self, so it was a disaster, and there are several versions about the reason why ussr invade afganishtan, the usa version, because they wanted to take control of israel... and so they had to pass by afganistan, and the soviet version is, the rebeld groubs in afganistan talibans or what ever, were training chechenes rebelds (terrorist) so the soviet had their war on terrorist, but the usa not caring about the reason they got their nose in like always do.. but as u see they have been always getting pay back (almost always)
-

-- USA who suported saddam to
-- gains power?
-
- The USA did NOT support the seizure of power by
- Saddam Hussein. The USA, through the CIA, supported
- the Baathist Party takeover of Iraq in the early
- 60's. The Baathists were anti-Communist and the USA
- did not look any further than this point. At that
- time Hussein was just another member of the party.
-

Yea i know that, and the cia did that alot especialy on sout america, fight against the spred of comunism in sout america, they train secretly gov armis you know cuba and bay of pigs, well there were many masacres done by the ppl who usa suported, and i dont c they trayed to stop it or just they pretend to care about

-- USA,who makes wars based on fake info
-- realease to the press, usa and great britain, war on
-- terrorism, why dont the usa condem pkistan and saudi
-- arabia? and make war agaisnt them?
-
- If you really believe that there were no decisive
- reasons for the Hussein regime to be ended, or that
- they possessed WMD, then I would refer you to the
- citizens of Iran, Kuwait, and Iraq proper. They can
- fill you in on the details which you seem to have
- missed.
-

hey dont get me wrong, saddam and ppl like that for me they all can go to hell, (but) as a president, u think is a good way to get ppl to suport your plans, by lying to the ppl?
they said in the un that they have spoted places where they were building the wepons by satelite... and where are those places? did u see those picture on cnn? i did? and now it is a whole lie, and besides a contry who is proud in 9 11 about the persons on the plane that crashed on a field because they vote it, "they vote it!" is what they say so proudly, and what did the usa, they did not care about any one elses opinion and do it by them self, puting the un in a trash can, now norht korea says un has no power over them.


- As far as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan (and Iran) are
- concerned, a war is being waged against the
- terroristis aspects of these regimes. It is just not
- being done with American bombs and guns.
-
-

pakistan was the promotor of taliban if i am not wrong

-
- if they are the
-- rpinsipal promover of terrorisms, nuclear wepons, i
-- am more worried about the usa and russia than little
-- countrys north Korea, why dont the usa make russia
-- destroy all nukes? not only a few? (i dont have
-- bithing agiants russia) it is pure propaganda just
-- like hittler used..
-
- Check and see the figures about how many nuclear
- weapons and ICBMs the USA and the CIS member states
- have actually eliminated in the past fourteen years.
- I think you might be surprised. In any case, worry
- about North Korea - they are the ones who every day
- threaten to attack their neighbors.
-
-

nuclear power is supostly going to be reduce to 3k for each one, but they are around 6k for each one, i am not sure, it is pretty better than 20000 usa nuclear wepons, and 12000 soviet wepons if i am not wrong, what i think i am, the usa had as much as tiws as the ussr had

-
--
-- besides the bismark could have been sink by the own
-- germans, as it was topedo prooff supoustly, it was
-- not the only time that germans senk by them self
-- their ship, there was another dont know witch one
-- that was spoted by 2 allied battle ships and they
-- damage the german BS but they got awaym and then
-- afther getting to a port they decided to take the
-- ship to a deeper place and sink it as they tough the
-- allies were going afther them, they prefered to
-- destroy it than have it captured (i ment), why do they destroy
-- planes left begine enemy lines? because it has has
-- top secret documents or tecnology as simple as that,
-- the british would have love to get their hands on
-- the bismark decoder machines
-
- Now back to being on topic ..... ;-) ..... I agree
- that the crew very likely scuttled the BISMARCK. It
- was standard operating procedure in all navies to do
- so under such circumstances. If they had not, the
- British still would have sunk her in any case.
-
-
-
-- "Never forget the past so we dont make the same
-- mistakes in the future"
-
- Quite agree. Just make sure that the past you
- remember is what truly happened.
-
-
-
- Blutarski
-
-
-
-
-



"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 11:56 AM
i think 2% of the USA's nuke stockpile is enough to wipe us all out just what they got em all for :P, problem with nukes is they only useful on civilian populations.

As for this iraq talk, sure saddiams a nasty peice of work but there was no evidience for the reasons they used to go to war, and who suffers more the iraqi people not saddiam who hasnt been found, now the iraqis are sayin well thx for gettin rid of saddiam u can go away now we dont want u etc. When in africa genocide is happening, with congo libia etc, UN peace keepers have even been quite nastly killed yet the world dosnt care cos whats to gain in africa. I thought clinton was a good president but this bush fulla since he has come to power has pulled out of alot of chemical weapons treaties and other things has made the world hate the US started about 2 wars and lookin to start a few more, done alot of damage to the UN cos it represented the world interests which at this time was not in agreement with his. He scares me i jus hope he dosnt push any red buttons.

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 12:11 PM
Right on HellToupee. Well what the heck, the Roman empire fell, British imperium crumbled and I guess Bush's actions will in the long run turn against that great nation. I really like the US but I feel sad because their political system is so screwed. Time will destroy everything http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 02:44 PM
A little research will provide an amazing look at how those that Whine the loudest about the single word "bush" are also the most open supporters of USA foreign policy and in general, Global European (white, caucasian, Aryan) imperialism.

As for USA presidents, Bush got elected only because Democrat Party installed an openly right wing Fasicst for their candidate causing many people to not vote.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 06:07 PM
LETS BURN THEM! TAKE TORCHES WITH YOU I WILL WAIT AT 12 AM AT THE CHURCH OF THE TOWN!

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 08:03 PM
HellToupee wrote:

- i think 2% of the USA's nuke stockpile is enough to
- wipe us all out just what they got em all for :P,
- problem with nukes is they only useful on civilian
- populations.

I'm truly sorry for you if you really believe the first part. You are wrong on the second part; if it were so, there would be no nuclear tipped anti-ship torpedoes, or nuclear tipped air-to-air anti-bomber missiles, or the need for very accurate (<5 meters error) to hit underground missile silos.



- As for this iraq talk, sure saddiams a nasty peice
- of work but there was no evidience for the reasons
- they used to go to war, and who suffers more the
- iraqi people not saddiam who hasnt been found, now
- the iraqis are sayin well thx for gettin rid of
- saddiam u can go away now we dont want u etc.

Let's compare your opinion about the Iraq situation to Mr Hitler and his Nazi friends. Well, OK, Hitler is a really bad man. And he has built a really large military. And he has taken over the Austria and Czechoslovakia because he says that the populations are really Germanic origin and therefore those countries really belong to the Greater German Reich. And he has put all the polticial opponents, Jews, homosexuals, and mentally incompetent people into concentration camps. Well, yes, Hitler is a really bad guy, but do we have any real proof that he is a threat to (pick your country here - Britain, France, Poland, Holland, Belgium, USA, etc)? Well, no, we don't have any "smoking gun" proof. We all know what such weak knees and wishful thinking got us.

The short story here is that 9/11 really happened. More people died in that attack than at Pearl Harbor. The decision is then very simple - do nothing and wait for the next blows to fall; or to act in response. I'm very comfortable about the decision which the Bush administration made.



- in africa genocide is happening, with congo libia
- etc, UN peace keepers have even been quite nastly
- killed yet the world dosnt care cos whats to gain in
- africa.

Let's not forget about Somalia, where Bush Senior sent in the US military to deliver food to a population starving from a great famine in Somalia - very popular. Then the UN got involved. Sorry USA, but just feeding the starving people is not sufficient; the UN wants to build a new nation and government. Result? Mogadishu. Of course, that is now blamed upon the USA, even though we were really acting on instructions of the UN.



- I thought clinton was a good president

Then you did not know him very well. Clinton was full of smiles and nice promises about everything under the sun. But he never could make the hard decisions and never really did anything, except, of course, bombing that aspirin factory in the Sudan and the Chinese foreign office in Belgrade - (bad intelligence??? - not for the Democrats) - but nobody talks about that any more .....



- this bush fulla since he has come to power has
- pulled out of alot of chemical weapons treaties and
- other things has made the world hate the US

Treaties and agreements, eh???? Remember the big chemical and bio weapons treaty we had with the USSR for years. The USA followed the agreement. After the fall of the Soviet Union, it was discovered that they had completely ignored it and kept on building even more huge bio weapons labs. Same with North Korea; brilliant Clinton makes a deal to pay (bribe) the North Koreans to stop their nuclear weapons program. Four years later, we discover that the NK's just laughed up their sleeve, took the money and aid and kept working on their nukes.

What's your reaction? Apparently it is that the USA is somehow now the bad one, because it refuses to sign onto more such fake treaties where we play by the rules and the other guys screw us over. Sorry - been there, done that, got the T-shirt.



- (Bush) started
- about 2 wars and lookin to start a few more, done
- alot of damage to the UN cos it represented the
- world interests which at this time was not in
- agreement with his. He scares me i jus hope he dosnt
- push any red buttons.

How would you suggest that the USA respond to open terror attacks upon it???? I'd really like to know.

Damage to the UN? Let's see. Word here is that Chiraq was a buddy of Hussein. Hussein promised big oild deal to French oil firm TotalElfFina in return for French protection in the UN Security Council. Result? French complete opposition and veto. But you will say ..... oh. no .... cannot be .... France wold not do such a thing. Sure ......

As far as the UN is concerned, it has become a totally ineffectual politicized bureaucratic edifice, unable to make any hard decisions, unwilling to follow through when it does (I refer you to the one zillion UN resolutions regarding Iraq). It would be completely laughable except for the fact that so many people actually still believe that useful things go on in that building. And the USA pays about half the UN bill.

I'm so tired of hearing all this carping and complaining about the USA coming from people who really know nothing more about us than what they hear on the BBC or read in the Suddeutscher Zeitung. The USA is by no means a perfect nation. There have been moments in time when I truly believe that my country, whether by intent or in error, has done bad things. But at the end of the day, we have never had to build a wall to keep our citizens in; we have never shot any people trying to leave. The USA is an easy country to criticize (a) if you insist to hold up perfection as the standard; (b) because almost everything gets out in the open for all to see; (c) because you won't be shot or disappeared for making criticisms. Other nations can commit crimes a million times more horrific than this nation ever dreamed about, and the European reaction seems to be ... well, ho hum, what did you expect from such people ..... (how about the Sudanese slave trader government killing 300 villagers in air attacks this week? ...Did that make your news???) If the USA puts a comma in the wrong place, my God, everyone goes insane. I'm so bloody tired of the double standards.

And if the USA is such a great power controlling all the universe, why is it that we have such a great trade deficit with just about every major country in the world? Why do we permit Toyota and Honda to dominate our automobile market? Why do we permit all kinds of foreign firms to openly do business here without limits (you's be amazed how much of "American" business is actually owned/controlled by British and Dutch investment firms) .... and so on and so on and so on. Try to open both eyes when you look at us across the ocean

And if you don't like Bush, you only have to be a little patient. Even if he wins the election next year, he will still step down in 2008.


Blutarski.

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 09:22 PM
Aztek Eagle wrote -

- well i may not explain my self that well, the usa
- suported the osama for example, full afganishtan of
- more wepons and then leave them by them self, so it
- was a disaster, and there are several versions about
- the reason why ussr invade afganishtan, the usa
- version, because they wanted to take control of
- israel... and so they had to pass by afganistan, and
- the soviet version is, the rebeld groubs in
- afganistan talibans or what ever, were training
- chechenes rebelds (terrorist) so the soviet had
- their war on terrorist, but the usa not caring about
- the reason they got their nose in like always do..
- but as u see they have been always getting pay back
- (almost always)

Aztek, the USA never supported Osama Bin Laden, except in the possible sense that he was probably in Afghanistan during the time (1980's) that the USA was sending money, aid, and weapons to support the various anti-Soviet forces. It is therefore possible that some US support MIGHT have reached Bin Laden simply because he was one of many foreign jihadis present. To say that the US supported Bin Laden IN PARTICULAR is not true. It is also important to recall that during the 1980's the USA had no reason to consider Bin Laden an enemy in any case.

In retrospect, I agree that it was probably a mistake to simply walk away from Afghanistan. But consider the reaction if the USA had in fact stayed. Then, the reaction of all the "experts" would have been ... "The USA is trying to impose control over the Afghanis; the US is just trying to take over Afghanistan just like the Soviets". The short story here is that no good deed goes unpunished.


Your claims about motives behind the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan are interesting to think about. Oh yes, ..... terrorists from Afghanistan were attacking across the border into the USSR. This is exactly the same excuse Hitler used to invade Poland. Do you think that if it were really true, that the Soviets could just have gone across the border with their 500,000 troops and wipred out the terrorist camps? Did they really need to land a parachute division in Kabul, occupy the entire country, and send a KGB team to assassinate the Afghani president and his senior advisors? I don't thnk so.

Maybe the terrorist story is actually true. But, even if so, I doubt that it was the real reason. Russia has had an interest in this border region for hundreds of years, even opposing Great Britain during its colonial period. IMO, the Afghani government, once very close to the USSR, was seen by the USSR to be drifting away. Andthe USSR decidedto do what it had on all other such occasions (E Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, and Chechnya); they sent in the troops to get things back under control. Only this time they made a bad miscalculation.

And yes, the USA saw an opportunity and stuck their nose in ..... payback in kind for Vietnam and Indochina.



- Yea i know that, and the cia did that alot especialy
- on sout america, fight against the spred of comunism
- in sout america, they train secretly gov armis you
- know cuba and bay of pigs, well there were many
- masacres done by the ppl who usa suported, and i
- dont c they trayed to stop it or just they pretend
- to care about.

BOTH SIDES did that in South America. Who do you think supported Castro, Guevara, Senderos Luminoso in Peru, the terrorist campaigns in Brazil, and Argentine, and Chile, and Bolivia, and Guatemala, and Colombia, and
Nicaragua, and El Salvador? What is the correct answer to such terror campaigns? You tell me.



--- USA,who makes wars based on fake info
--- realease to the press, usa and great britain, war on
--- terrorism, why dont the usa condem pkistan and saudi
--- arabia? and make war agaisnt them?

Gee, let's see. Bush gives 10 reasons for going after Saddam. One out of ten reasons Bush gives is - "the British have learned that Iraq has been trying to buy uranium from Africa". The Democrats produce two or three people who claim it was not so. The British say their information is correct; the Italians agree. I'd say that it is was too early to call anyone a liar here. WMD? Hussein has actually used lethal chemical weapons (against the kurds and Iranians). We know that Iraq had been buying component chemicals and materials. We have found empty chemical munitions. We have found mobile bio-weapons labs. The Israelis and Egyptian have reported that Iraqi WMDs have been hidden in Syria. We have reports from Iraqis that Hussein ordered his remaining stocks of chemical and bio weapons destroyed just before the invasion. I guess it all depends on who and what you want to believe .....

Read the papers if you want to see what is going on in Pakistan. Musharraf is supporting the campaign against AlQaeda. The US is supporting Musharraf to go after terrorists in the border region of Pakistan. And you only need to look at what is going on in Saudi Arabia to understand that things are happening there. Why do you think that the Saudis are suddenly going after the terrorists and clamping down on the Wahhabist religious extremists. Such things have never before happened in Saudi Arabia.



- puting the un in a trash can, now norht korea says
- un has no power over them.

Rather than repeat myself, see my comments re the UN in a previous post. The Kim regime specializes in perpetual threats of war over every possible issue. And are you suggesting that North Korea ever admitted that anyone at any time has ever had power over them?



- pakistan was the promotor of taliban if i am not
- wrong

Pakistan was indeed a big promoter of the Taliban as a means to extend Pakistani influence in Afghanistan. Iran also supported the movement. Saudi Arabia was the banker.



- nuclear power is supostly going to be reduce to 3k
- for each one, but they are around 6k for each one, i
- am not sure, it is pretty better than 20000 usa
- nuclear wepons, and 12000 soviet wepons if i am not
- wrong, what i think i am, the usa had as much as
- tiws as the ussr had

My feeling is that if another nuclear weapon is detonated in anger, it will be done by a 3rd World nation, or by a terrorist group supported by such a country.



Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 09:43 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- HellToupee wrote:
-
-- i think 2% of the USA's nuke stockpile is enough to
-- wipe us all out just what they got em all for /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif ,
-- problem with nukes is they only useful on civilian
-- populations.
-
- I'm truly sorry for you if you really believe the
- first part. You are wrong on the second part; if it
- were so, there would be no nuclear tipped anti-ship
- torpedoes, or nuclear tipped air-to-air anti-bomber
- missiles, or the need for very accurate (<5 meters
- error) to hit underground missile silos.
-
-
-
-- As for this iraq talk, sure saddiams a nasty peice
-- of work but there was no evidience for the reasons
-- they used to go to war, and who suffers more the
-- iraqi people not saddiam who hasnt been found, now
-- the iraqis are sayin well thx for gettin rid of
-- saddiam u can go away now we dont want u etc.
-
- Let's compare your opinion about the Iraq situation
- to Mr Hitler and his Nazi friends. Well, OK, Hitler
- is a really bad man. And he has built a really large
- military. And he has taken over the Austria and
- Czechoslovakia because he says that the populations
- are really Germanic origin and therefore those
- countries really belong to the Greater German Reich.
- And he has put all the polticial opponents, Jews,
- homosexuals, and mentally incompetent people into
- concentration camps. Well, yes, Hitler is a really
- bad guy, but do we have any real proof that he is a
- threat to (pick your country here - Britain, France,
- Poland, Holland, Belgium, USA, etc)? Well, no, we
- don't have any "smoking gun" proof. We all know what
- such weak knees and wishful thinking got us.
-
- The short story here is that 9/11 really happened.
- More people died in that attack than at Pearl
- Harbor. The decision is then very simple - do
- nothing and wait for the next blows to fall; or to
- act in response. I'm very comfortable about the
- decision which the Bush administration made.
-
-
-
-- in africa genocide is happening, with congo libia
-- etc, UN peace keepers have even been quite nastly
-- killed yet the world dosnt care cos whats to gain in
-- africa.
-
- Let's not forget about Somalia, where Bush Senior
- sent in the US military to deliver food to a
- population starving from a great famine in Somalia -
- very popular. Then the UN got involved. Sorry USA,
- but just feeding the starving people is not
- sufficient; the UN wants to build a new nation and
- government. Result? Mogadishu. Of course, that is
- now blamed upon the USA, even though we were really
- acting on instructions of the UN.
-
-
-
-- I thought clinton was a good president
-
- Then you did not know him very well. Clinton was
- full of smiles and nice promises about everything
- under the sun. But he never could make the hard
- decisions and never really did anything, except, of
- course, bombing that aspirin factory in the Sudan
- and the Chinese foreign office in Belgrade - (bad
- intelligence??? - not for the Democrats) - but
- nobody talks about that any more .....
-
-
-
-- this bush fulla since he has come to power has
-- pulled out of alot of chemical weapons treaties and
-- other things has made the world hate the US
-
- Treaties and agreements, eh???? Remember the big
- chemical and bio weapons treaty we had with the USSR
- for years. The USA followed the agreement. After the
- fall of the Soviet Union, it was discovered that
- they had completely ignored it and kept on building
- even more huge bio weapons labs. Same with North
- Korea; brilliant Clinton makes a deal to pay (bribe)
- the North Koreans to stop their nuclear weapons
- program. Four years later, we discover that the NK's
- just laughed up their sleeve, took the money and aid
- and kept working on their nukes.
-
- What's your reaction? Apparently it is that the USA
- is somehow now the bad one, because it refuses to
- sign onto more such fake treaties where we play by
- the rules and the other guys screw us over. Sorry -
- been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
-
-
-
-- (Bush) started
-- about 2 wars and lookin to start a few more, done
-- alot of damage to the UN cos it represented the
-- world interests which at this time was not in
-- agreement with his. He scares me i jus hope he dosnt
-- push any red buttons.
-
- How would you suggest that the USA respond to open
- terror attacks upon it???? I'd really like to know.
-
-
-
- Damage to the UN? Let's see. Word here is that
- Chiraq was a buddy of Hussein. Hussein promised big
- oild deal to French oil firm TotalElfFina in return
- for French protection in the UN Security Council.
- Result? French complete opposition and veto. But you
- will say ..... oh. no .... cannot be .... France
- wold not do such a thing. Sure ......
-
- As far as the UN is concerned, it has become a
- totally ineffectual politicized bureaucratic
- edifice, unable to make any hard decisions,
- unwilling to follow through when it does (I refer
- you to the one zillion UN resolutions regarding
- Iraq). It would be completely laughable except for
- the fact that so many people actually still believe
- that useful things go on in that building. And the
- USA pays about half the UN bill.
-
- I'm so tired of hearing all this carping and
- complaining about the USA coming from people who
- really know nothing more about us than what they
- hear on the BBC or read in the Suddeutscher Zeitung.
- The USA is by no means a perfect nation. There have
- been moments in time when I truly believe that my
- country, whether by intent or in error, has done bad
- things. But at the end of the day, we have never had
- to build a wall to keep our citizens in; we have
- never shot any people trying to leave. The USA is an
- easy country to criticize (a) if you insist to hold
- up perfection as the standard; (b) because almost
- everything gets out in the open for all to see; (c)
- because you won't be shot or disappeared for making
- criticisms. Other nations can commit crimes a
- million times more horrific than this nation ever
- dreamed about, and the European reaction seems to be
- ... well, ho hum, what did you expect from such
- people ..... (how about the Sudanese slave trader
- government killing 300 villagers in air attacks this
- week? ...Did that make your news???) If the USA puts
- a comma in the wrong place, my God, everyone goes
- insane. I'm so bloody tired of the double standards.
-
- And if the USA is such a great power controlling all
- the universe, why is it that we have such a great
- trade deficit with just about every major country in
- the world? Why do we permit Toyota and Honda to
- dominate our automobile market? Why do we permit all
- kinds of foreign firms to openly do business here
- without limits (you's be amazed how much of
- "American" business is actually owned/controlled by
- British and Dutch investment firms) .... and so on
- and so on and so on. Try to open both eyes when you
- look at us across the ocean
-
- And if you don't like Bush, you only have to be a
- little patient. Even if he wins the election next
- year, he will still step down in 2008.
-
-
- Blutarski.
-
-
-
-
The world is seen diferent from a place that is not the USA, USA buy several countrys voten in many ocation, and as the saddam thing, even trayed to buy mine countrys vote, and now that we didnt accep his money, he has take economics santion against us? so the lema of the usa, you do as you are told or you are going to be f..k up, well buddy the 9 11, of curse it happen, but you have justr lost it, yea 9 11 have change many american into politic who takes paranoic actions, they are just blinded, you can say what ever you want but the usa govermen, may be not the pll, but the goverment are as derty as any other one in the world, they do politics asesinations just because that guy just dont think in the way usa want him to... it has happen always, and they keep doing it, just wait 30 years like now we know a lot of derty stuff the politcs did in the past, in 30 years they will admit o yea that guys used propaganda and all that, but they will be death already to be punishemt, i am mexican and i have live and study in the usa, and i felt like is some one was traying to brain wash me, i notice that the history books are censurated, doesnt show many importan issues in the hisory of the world or in usa history. even the version of the yankee invasion to mexico is just to funny, i could belive it when i read it at school, "we mexican we are evil and we wanted war!" well sorry buddy but i dont buy that one... thanks god i am back at my be loved mexico, hey yea mexico a piece of poop, as u many call it, well at least we all know that the guys in power are selling our interest to countrys as the usa, just another example of th usa mexico relationship, last president not Fox but Zedillo, Zedillo was involve with the druglords he protected the druglords and all that, USA knows that and every one do, well.. later when his turn on precidensy was about to finishm, he sell railroads of mexico, to a usa company, something that is extricly prohibited in the constitution, but who cares, The USA has won alot of money with that fraud and Zedillo did, now he lives in the USA, and guess who runs the exrailroads of mexico? No one else BUT Zedillo, there u have a guy in the south who got tons and tons of drugs into the usa and comited frauds against Mexico insterests and Your gov dont care because they dont care about it, and yea but wait! we didnt agree that it was time for the war to happen! we did say we do get another agreement that if in 30 days irag didnt do what it was supoust to then we would vot ein favor of military actions, but no! HO you desagree with us? HA ok then we will take economics action vs your exporst and imporsts...

I used to like Bush, but bush with the 9 11, just lost it as simple as that, i dont like dictadors ppl like saddam or fidell, But in the way usa is runing the situation, the only thing he is doing is leading us to a big conflict were many ppl will die, where there could be other way, as i am resgistered in the usa arm forces, not an active person, but if there is a big conlict they prob will call me, and hell, not going to go fight in a war who the person i think is guilty is the person who gives me the orders

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
07-23-2003, 10:55 PM
There were plenty of blunders on both sides, Axis and Allied!

If ya get a chance, read up on the "Dieppe Raid" a precursor to Operation Overlord!

http://www.fightingcolors.com/Me109images/109banner.jpeg

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 09:14 AM
ummm the US actually sold both chemical AND biological weapons to iraq in the 80's because it was thought they would use them against Iran. These include anthrax, e.coli, pox, and instructions how to make weapons of them. After the 1st gulf war weapon inspectors verified that those chem/bio weapons were of us origin. It was pretty hush hush and still is.

US did support Osama, he was a major player even during the 80's.

It was H Kissingers idea to drag the USSR into afghanistan in the first place. In an interview he admits that and is proud of it too. He also got a nobels peace prize but that was for the pol pot thingy which I don't go into here but believe me it was BAD.

Get William Blums book "rogue state" or was it nation.. cant remember. It lists a nice bunch of stuff including the biological weapon tests that were done in major cities in the us back in the 50's.

I'm not saying US is any worse than f.ex ussr but just to open ppls eyes.

XyZspineZyX
07-24-2003, 10:04 AM
Can some moderator please lock this thread before we get another Pilot's Lounge here? Anyway, who the heck cares about the nuclear bomb when I have a nuclear bong!!!! Get real, no one's perfect. Everyone has something to gain. Good and bad all depends upon what faction you belong to.



http://www.student.richmond.edu/~vk5qa/images/forumsig.jpg


"Come on in, I'll treat you right. I used to know your daddy."

XyZspineZyX
07-29-2003, 10:43 PM
They lost a lot of tradition during the time between the wars. The Jutland battle was a tactical victory but a strategical failure because the newer challanged Royal navy after this battle

XyZspineZyX
07-30-2003, 02:32 AM
someone lock this before I write my 2c...

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]