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View Full Version : Should NPC Soldiers Be Able to Freerun on Rooftops?



cawatrooper9
02-23-2016, 04:18 PM
The recent direction of the series has got me thinking. M4r-k7's post about what AC can learn about the first game (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1394371-How-AC-Empire-Can-Learn-from-AC-1) made me think about how enemy parkour has evolved (or rather, changed). In old AC games, soldiers could chase Ezio and Altair across rooftops. Often it seemed kind of strange to have a regular Joe dressed in plate armor bounding over streets and catching a skilled and sleek Assassin, and it could sometimes draw out chases a bit too much. However, it also quickly became part of the charm of the series, and certainly helped keep the already criticized low difficulty a little higher. So, I think as fans, we have a few options:

YES
Voting yes means that you believe NPC enemies should be able to chase us across rooftops like the good old days.

NO
Voting no means that you subscribe to Amancio's idea that the rooftops should be the domain of the Assassin, and that enemies should not be able to follow you up them.
[U]


A final pair of suggestions, these would allow some enemy classes to follow you and some to not. This could be as simple as dividing enemies up into light and heavy classes with only light able to climb (DEPENDS ON ENEMY CLASS), or it could be more complex- for instance, make only units that act as Assassin Hunters or counter agents about to climb which might be a little more friendly (DEPENDS ON UNIT'S PLACE IN LORE).

VestigialLlama4
02-23-2016, 04:30 PM
I think special classes of enemies on rooftops should be okay.

As it is, Agiles do climb up rooftops and chase you across.

cawatrooper9
02-23-2016, 04:45 PM
I think special classes of enemies on rooftops should be okay.

As it is, Agiles do climb up rooftops and chase you across.

Which game are you referring to?

Xstantin
02-23-2016, 05:02 PM
Depends on enemy's class. Like Agiles, scouts or whatever they were called in games or Jagers for instance.

m4r-k7
02-23-2016, 08:18 PM
I vote yes, but they shouldn't have abilities our Assassins do. They should have basic jump. Perhaps if Agile classes make a return, they can be more like Assassins like in AC 2 :)

In AC 1 buildings were really close together so it kind of makes sense for most enemies to be able to chase you, but in AC 2 it was a bit different, which led to only Agiles really being able to chase you. I think Ancient Egyptian cities would be more similar with AC 1 so I definitely feel enemies should chase you more.

Civona
02-23-2016, 11:53 PM
I think it should depend on the enemy class, but I also think that our ability to free-run should be more realistically limited, so that it isn't a huge disadvantage for enemies who can't, and also so it looks less silly.

And I'd appreciate different animations for enemies who can climb, making it clearer that they're not as experienced and justifying why the player can lose them.

Ureh
02-24-2016, 03:16 AM
Oh yes there are definitely some memories of rooftop chases that I'm pretty fond of. Nothing quite like kicking and punching each other off ladders and tightropes, tossing them off the rooftops (we can actually take out a dozen or more guards by spamming the throw button), the pursuers waiting in line waiting to jump across the same spot, activating viewpoints in the middle of a chase, and watching them jump to their deaths after they lose track of you. "Chase any crazy hooded murderers across rooftops" probably wasn't part of the job description for city guards but I salute you for trying.

I think it can be a fun thing to bring back because that give us a way to clown around with the guards and watch them do silly things and struggle to keep up (although back in the older games, the guards were really really good at controlled descent... most of the time.). The leap of faith was the ultimate chase ender, they could watch you hop into the hay bale and instantly forget where you went. Not to mention the chase dialogue can add to the fun too. I'm about to wrap up Unity and I rarely get to hear any chase dialogue. One that almost made me smile was, "Get back here you little squirrel!" or something like that. The game could be a a lot goofier by giving more stuff to really mess around with - unless they make the AI so smart and aggressive in chases - which is probably what many people are looking for in open world games.

If they don't plan on bringing back the acrobatic guards (in the near future), they could give the ai new/old abilties to counter the Assassin Advantage, such as:

1. Brutes/heavies can use their large weapons to "break" ladders while you're climbing up.
2. Agiles can throw daggers to activate the lifts prematurely and tackle you.
3. Peons can throw rocks, punch/kick you off certain areas.
4. Seekers could instantly react if you try to mount a horse by knocking you off with a spear (other guards can still try to dismount you but the Seeker will be fastest).
5. Elites/Templars can do all of the above and even circumvent some of your tools (like smoke bombs) to keep up with you.
6. And the usual investigation stage where they'll break up crowds and inspect hiding areas if you try to end the chase too early.

With some of these thingies, guards don't have to be able to climb up to chase you and if you do manage to get onto the rooftops then it could be considered a successful escape. It's a really hard decision to bring back rooftop chases cause it relies on the shape and height of the buildings, other parts of gameplay like combat and stealth, and even the story. Like in AC1, 2, B, and even R, you got all the guards chasing Altair and Ezio cause it's like a citywide manhunt for one person, so to make it feel like that they need to have guards that can block off certain streets and be able to chase you almost anywhere. In AC1 and 2, you even have certain chase sequences for targets (just some examples: Talal and Francescoo Pazzi) where the role is reversed. Oh yeah and the thieves, couriers, and stalkers can be chased too. But in 3 and beyond, they start phasing out rooftop chases... I dunno... maybe they were getting a lot of feedback to stop including them? maybe the devs just didn't want to always have rooftop chases in every game? maybe it just didn't make sense for those time periods? For Unity it probably made sense to cut out rooftop chases because the buildings were getting really tall and the rooftop shapes are more varied, lots of people thought combat was harder so they need the escapes to have less resistance, and probably other stuffs too.

I dunno... it's hard to say. Guess we'll just wait and see where they go next with everything.

SixKeys
02-24-2016, 06:15 AM
If they don't plan on bringing back the acrobatic guards (in the near future), they could give the ai new/old abilties to counter the Assassin Advantage, such as:

1. Brutes/heavies can use their large weapons to "break" ladders while you're climbing up.
2. Agiles can throw daggers to activate the lifts prematurely and tackle you.
3. Peons can throw rocks, punch/kick you off certain areas.
4. Seekers could instantly react if you try to mount a horse by knocking you off with a spear (other guards can still try to dismount you but the Seeker will be fastest).
5. Elites/Templars can do all of the above and even circumvent some of your tools (like smoke bombs) to keep up with you.
6. And the usual investigation stage where they'll break up crowds and inspect hiding areas if you try to end the chase too early.


Oh man, these are awesome suggestions. Especially the first two. :cool: (Throwing rocks or other projectiles is already in the games, but it's rarer to actually get hit by them, compared to AC1.)

The Templars or elite soldiers dodging smoke bombs is something that should already have been implemented ages ago. The smoke bombs have always been ridiculously OP and in Rogue it's especially stupid how Shay is the only person smart enough to wear a mask when facing the assassins.

As for the poll, I'm all for rooftop chases, regardless of enemy archetypes. Brutes would be the only one I would exclude, but as long as there are ladders around, I don't see why enemies couldn't follow you. It was always a thrill in the early games to escape when guards would follow you relentlessly until you found a hiding place.

Edit: I would add that if seekers can follow you on the rooftops, hiding spots should only be relatively safe. Seekers should be smart enough to check nearby rooftop gardens and such before climbing down.

MikeFNY
02-24-2016, 08:51 AM
If they don't plan on bringing back the acrobatic guards (in the near future), they could give the ai new/old abilties to counter the Assassin Advantage, such as:

1. Brutes/heavies can use their large weapons to "break" ladders while you're climbing up.
Clever.

Hoping of course there will no primitive prototype of rope launcher attached to a spear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzyP7ukogGQ#t=330

LoyalACFan
02-24-2016, 10:08 AM
IMO there should be some differentiation between classes, as the majority seems to be saying. I don't think any enemies should be able to climb up walls, though.

cawatrooper9
02-24-2016, 05:40 PM
If they don't plan on bringing back the acrobatic guards (in the near future), they could give the ai new/old abilties to counter the Assassin Advantage, such as:

1. Brutes/heavies can use their large weapons to "break" ladders while you're climbing up.
2. Agiles can throw daggers to activate the lifts prematurely and tackle you.
3. Peons can throw rocks, punch/kick you off certain areas.
4. Seekers could instantly react if you try to mount a horse by knocking you off with a spear (other guards can still try to dismount you but the Seeker will be fastest).
5. Elites/Templars can do all of the above and even circumvent some of your tools (like smoke bombs) to keep up with you.
6. And the usual investigation stage where they'll break up crowds and inspect hiding areas if you try to end the chase too early.


Great suggestions! I really like the idea of guards actively working with the environment against you and eliminating your options, rather than constantly bullying the player with the good old fashioned AC2-era pushings.

crash_1232015
02-25-2016, 12:35 AM
More lightly armoured soldiers should be able to access rooftops - I really hope the next AC game has more roof archers to add more challenge and encourage stealth

Jessigirl2013
02-26-2016, 08:53 PM
IMO there should be some differentiation between classes, as the majority seems to be saying. I don't think any enemies should be able to climb up walls, though.

Yeah, It just seems bizarre if all enemies have been highly trained in parkour.:rolleyes:

Civona
03-15-2016, 05:40 AM
just a general thing: it would be nice if clothing choice were considered when deciding what characters can free-run or not. Currently it feels like climbing ability is considered almost wholly separately from if the character is actually wearing practical clothing. Why is adewale one of the few assassins who has bare arms? the rest of those folks must get pretty sweaty needlessly.

In ac3 and such it makes sense considering the climate, but that's just one of the things that should be considered: what would a person who was going to do some climbing look like and wear in this time and place and season.

cawatrooper9
03-15-2016, 02:38 PM
just a general thing: it would be nice if clothing choice were considered when deciding what characters can free-run or not. Currently it feels like climbing ability is considered almost wholly separately from if the character is actually wearing practical clothing. Why is adewale one of the few assassins who has bare arms? the rest of those folks must get pretty sweaty needlessly.

In ac3 and such it makes sense considering the climate, but that's just one of the things that should be considered: what would a person who was going to do some climbing look like and wear in this time and place and season.

Well, specifically with the Assassins we can assume that they dress for more than just climbing- we must also consider other things too, like concealment and combat.

As far as NPCs go, though, I agree. If we have specific classes that can run on roofs and parkour, perhaps those classes shouldn't wear heavy armor.

Jessigirl2013
03-18-2016, 02:59 PM
Well, specifically with the Assassins we can assume that they dress for more than just climbing- we must also consider other things too, like concealment and combat.

As far as NPCs go, though, I agree. If we have specific classes that can run on roofs and parkour, perhaps those classes shouldn't wear heavy armor.

But then what's the point in them chasing you if you can easily kill them.:confused:

Its one of those things that sound good in theory but in game if could come across as a gimmick.

cawatrooper9
03-18-2016, 03:17 PM
But then what's the point in them chasing you if you can easily kill them.:confused:

Its one of those things that sound good in theory but in game if could come across as a gimmick.

Well, I definitely think that there needs to be a balance. Sure, maybe chasers wear very light armor and are easier to kill, but they're fast. That's the tradeoff.
Plus, if they catch you and force you into a fight, you'll be exposed on a rooftop and vulnerable to enemy fire. It's certainly not an enviable situation to be in.

Jessigirl2013
03-20-2016, 03:29 PM
Well, I definitely think that there needs to be a balance. Sure, maybe chasers wear very light armor and are easier to kill, but they're fast. That's the tradeoff.
Plus, if they catch you and force you into a fight, you'll be exposed on a rooftop and vulnerable to enemy fire. It's certainly not an enviable situation to be in.

Good point, They would have to change the whole dodging bullets thing though... That made being shot at rarely a threat.