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patch_adams
07-14-2004, 03:32 PM
Here is the scenario. You are in pure pursuit of an enemy bandit stuck in a SUSTAINED TURN. The bandit has more energy than you do. You cannot turn your plane fast enough to pull lead for a shot but you are right behind him at about his seven o'clock.

Assume the aircraft have the SAME TURNRATE and Identical flight characteristics (same plane) just for example and to better understand the concept.

DO you continue to turn with him and hope he makes a mistake?

Do you goto lead pursuit and angle above or below him and try to cut inside his turn? (high, low yo yo?)

Lag pursuit?

Do you extend?

What is the best option?

Assume your goal is to down your opponent and not run away. Thanks please explain your answer choice.

patch_adams
07-14-2004, 03:32 PM
Here is the scenario. You are in pure pursuit of an enemy bandit stuck in a SUSTAINED TURN. The bandit has more energy than you do. You cannot turn your plane fast enough to pull lead for a shot but you are right behind him at about his seven o'clock.

Assume the aircraft have the SAME TURNRATE and Identical flight characteristics (same plane) just for example and to better understand the concept.

DO you continue to turn with him and hope he makes a mistake?

Do you goto lead pursuit and angle above or below him and try to cut inside his turn? (high, low yo yo?)

Lag pursuit?

Do you extend?

What is the best option?

Assume your goal is to down your opponent and not run away. Thanks please explain your answer choice.

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 03:36 PM
Not enough info.

How high are we?
What type of plane? Fighter? Bomber?
Are other aircraft around? Enemy? Friendly?
Why is he stuck? Mechanical failure?


Given sufficient height, and a pure 1 on 1 situation versus a fighter with no rear gunner, I would go into lead pursuit and then when I am ready I'd execute a high yo-yo, rolling into him from above and diving past after my firing pass. I'd use the energy gained to do it again and again until he's downed, or I run out of ammo, or we are too low.

In short, i would always keep him under my thumb

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Karaya_69th
07-14-2004, 03:37 PM
Might be able to try a vector roll attack. P-47's used this against 109's with good success

JG14_Josf
07-14-2004, 03:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The bandit has more energy than you <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A Barrel Roll Attack is an overshoot control maneuver so it would not apply if the target has more energy = speed or altitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>you are right behind him at about his seven o'clock <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same altitude?

The target is then faster.

The faster plane will have a larger turn radius.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You cannot turn your plane fast enough to pull lead for a shot <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This contradicts the previously declared energy state.

and this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>SAME TURNRATE and Identical flight characteristics <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The slower plane will have a smaller turn radius and therefore be able to pull lead, even if the faster plane is maximizing turn rate at corner speed.

If the slower plane is out of range (not close enough for a shot) then the situation appears to be defensive, despite relative possition.

The situation is made more defensive subject to the degree of relative speed. If the target is a whole lot faster than the situation is more defensive.

If the situation is that the target plane is only slightly faster than the situation is more offensive.

If the target keeps turning and keeps the power on then the slower plane can gain even more angles by reducing the throttle.

Check here:Virtualpilots (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/#tactics)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>" When the enemy decreased power, I used to throttle back even more. In a high speed the turning radius is wider, using less speed I was able to out-turn him having a shorter turning radius. Then you got the deflection, unless the adversary did not spot me in time and for example banked below me. 250kmh seemed to be the optimal speed." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kysoti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories.

patch_adams
07-14-2004, 04:07 PM
same altitude, pure 1v1, assume the bandit conserves energy by arching his turn up and then down but still remains a circle fight. if you do nothing then eventually he will out muscle you and get behind you because of his initial speed/energy advantage. Remember that you cannot pull lead and have less energy even if you have a smaller turn radius.

eXtra_Corrosiv
07-14-2004, 04:09 PM
do basically you're saying i'm just out of firing range, tailing a fighter with an e advantage, and he's pulling away...

since it's a fighter, and is not going to bomb my house, i will dive, extend and climb all at the same time.

I will let him increase his lead, while I pull away to a safe distance and gain altitude.

If he wants to run, that's fine by me, If he wants to turn around, bleed off some e, and come after me when I have equal or better state, than it's his folly.

Im not gonna waste my time chasing him down when he could be setting me up for his wingman or some AA fire.

Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45

Chuck_Older
07-14-2004, 04:17 PM
Josf's points are valid.

Also, if it's the same aircraft, how can he use his intital speed advantage to constantly be faster than me?


I go into lead pursuit. I cut his corner because I am in lead pursuit. Same turn radius doesn't mean we are both at max turn rate.

When he is low on energy from his short climb, I climb, too, but I don't turn.

he continues his turn, he's stuck there.

I drop a wing, kick over the rudder, dive onto him and let him hold a few hundred rounds of lead.

if he doesn't get flamed, now I have e-advantage, and I grind him into dust by out climbing and out speeding him. I constantly pounce.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

chilicheese
07-14-2004, 04:23 PM
lag pursuit, build e, high yo yo and smoke his ****.

BaldieJr
07-14-2004, 04:40 PM
The setup doesn't make sense, but based on what you've provided, loop. If he's doing a full-on turn with more E, go high and hope for the best. Maybe catch him after you reverse.

Dnmy
07-14-2004, 05:25 PM
The situation looks like you're stuck in lag.
no energy to pull lead for a shot, always one step behind. You basically made a misjudgement somewhere along the line and gotten yourself in deep doodoo.

If you got alt point the nose down, make a diving run and roll toward the opposite direction to try and get some some separation first. At least enough for you to reverse it into a neutral headon situation again.

You may be behind him still now, but you're on the defense. There's no magic maneuver. Get separation first.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"

Scen
07-14-2004, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dnmy:
The situation looks like you're stuck in lag.
no energy to pull lead for a shot, always one step behind. You basically made a misjudgement somewhere along the line and gotten yourself in deep doodoo.

If you got alt point the nose down, make a diving run and roll toward the opposite direction to try and get some some separation first. At least enough for you to reverse it into a neutral headon situation again.

You may be behind him still now, but you're on the defense. There's no magic maneuver. Get separation first.

--------------------------------

"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with you on this one. I think he's stuck in Lagg... The real option is to extend and gain some e and re-engage. Basically you've lost the advantage and soon you will be at a disadvantage

I need a little bit more information but that's what it sounds like for now.

Scendore

patch_adams
07-14-2004, 05:47 PM
Thanks, I think DMNY hit the nail on the head. Although lag pursuit and high yo yos may work Im not sure.

patch_adams
07-14-2004, 05:52 PM
baldie your suggestion is a setup for diaster. If he is tracking you he will drop flaps and get you when you go vertical because his extra speed transfers to turn rate and smaller radius.

El Turo
07-14-2004, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Here is the scenario. You are in pure pursuit of an enemy bandit stuck in a SUSTAINED TURN. The bandit has more energy than you do. You cannot turn your plane fast enough to pull lead for a shot but you are right behind him at about his seven o'clock.

Assume the aircraft have the SAME TURNRATE and Identical flight characteristics (same plane) just for example and to better understand the concept.

DO you continue to turn with him and hope he makes a mistake?

Do you goto lead pursuit and angle above or below him and try to cut inside his turn? (high, low yo yo?)

Lag pursuit?

Do you extend?

What is the best option?

Assume your goal is to down your opponent and not run away. Thanks please explain your answer choice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't read any of the responses, so forgive me if this has already been said.. but it is nearly impossible for you to have an inferior turn rate/radius when you are at a lower energy state and basically co-altitude (on his 7 oclock).

If you are in identical aircraft, you've got one or the other... more speed or better turn rate/radius.

If I'm slightly slower than he, I'm going to pull high lead angle and come back over the top for my kill shot if he is still turning at higher speed.. I'll be able to cut the corner and there you have your end game. If you're on his 7 o'clock, the dude is already 95% dead.


Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

TheJoyStick
07-14-2004, 06:36 PM
I dunno, I'm a "fill the windscreen" type of fighter.. I follow the guy til he's about .15k away from me, and let em have it.

It takes a while to get there, but I've got plenty of time =)


Err, just to clarify, that'd what I'd do in your situation.. Ride him like a pony til he gets tired, then kill him.

patch_adams
07-14-2004, 06:57 PM
joystick-
Thats a valid tactic joystick but its like a chess match where someone sacrafices their queen to get a checkmate. You will not gain on him in a sustained turn and eventaully the bandit will turn the tables if he plays his cards right. He will win a sustained downward spiral to the deck and get behind you.

turo-

If you try and drop flaps to pull lead for a shot you only have 1 chance and its a high deflection shot. If you miss, he has significant energy over you because you used flaps and burned what little energy you already had. you then risk being hammerheaded or spiral climbed.

HomeboyWu
07-14-2004, 07:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by El Turo:

I didn't read any of the responses, so forgive me if this has already been said.. but it is nearly impossible for you to have an inferior turn rate/radius when you are at a lower energy state and basically co-altitude (on his 7 oclock).

If you are in identical aircraft, you've got one or the other... more speed or better turn rate/radius.

If I'm slightly slower than he, I'm going to pull high lead angle and come back over the top for my kill shot if he is still turning at higher speed.. I'll be able to cut the corner and there you have your end game. If you're on his 7 o'clock, the dude is already 95% dead.


Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, no. Being slower doesn't gaurantee a tighter turn and/or a better turn rate. Ever heard of "corner speed"? It's the speed where the turn rate is highest, and it's nowhere near stall speed. So if the bandit is near corner speed, there's absolutely no way for a slower pursuer to pull lead in a flat turn.

Another example, at stall speed, which is as slow as you can get, you get ZERO turn rate and INFINITE turn radius. Not a good speed for turn fighting!

BaldieJr
07-14-2004, 09:22 PM
Let me clarify: don't pull a full loop. Start into one and see where he goes. You can't catch him cause he has more speed (according to you). You can't out turn him either. Might as well start climbing. He's already dumping speed, you'll probably get the advantage once you've reversed.

But if you try climbing away, he'll latch onto you and start shooting, so hope for a headon, or a direction change by him.

XyZspineZyX
07-14-2004, 09:28 PM
If it's the same type AC, and he's already enjoying an energy advantage, you're not gonna catch him.

You *might* drop the nose and try to do a low yo-yo for some extra energy, but it's doubtful if you'll ever make up the energy shortfall and get enough of an advantage to make up the angles.

I'd flatten out, and pull out of that idiot turn (what are you doing in a silly turnfight anyway?) and extend straight away, and if I get a chance start getting some alt. Let him blow E to reverse if he wants, that helps me nullify his E advantage.

brimigus
07-14-2004, 11:33 PM
Oh thats easy I just ram the thing and blame it on lag ,then exchange insults about noob flying ability and warping technics for about the next half hour.

alarmer
07-15-2004, 12:50 AM
I would say you gotta be quite lucky to survive a situation like that.

Me personally consider pilots who turn and burn stupid. Easyest way to get killed, so I would stay out of those situations. Then again Iam a Axis pilot so guess I have one way view on this situation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Basicly it all comes down to situation awardness, if you are good at that, you wont get into messy situations. Atleast not that often http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In VEF I would try to get on my side of the front and if enemy would have gotten my plane even slightly damaged I would bail out.

badatit
07-15-2004, 01:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
Oh thats easy I just ram the thing and blame it on lag ,then exchange insults about noob flying ability and warping technics for about the next half hour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

As for the ACM situation...Time to alert you wingman, take your deflection shot, and extend.
You do have a wingman....dont you? I mean, your flying around and around and around....tell me you have sombody watching you back.

Hoarmurath
07-15-2004, 02:20 AM
This seem the perfect situation to go for a low yo yo...

http://hoarmurath.free.fr/images/sighoar.jpg (http://hoarmurath.free.fr/)

Salfordian
07-15-2004, 07:04 AM
Well if its me doing the flying they're bound to get me sooner or later so I'd just give in and BAIL OUT http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Farkitt_
07-15-2004, 09:42 AM
Roll out and down, get some speed up and some distance, gain altitude then Re engage.

If you've not got enough energy to pull a lead shot on him, how are ya gonna lead pursuit him?

Alternativly, I'd Dive and cut the corner, climbing back up at the opposite side in the hope of a full deflection shot at him as he comes around, if I don't get him then, extend and re engage

http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

"You do that again, I'll boot your bollocks till they ring like the church bells at St Mary's. Next time, Ding ****" -Fanny Barton in "A Good Clean Fight" written By Derek Robinson

badatit
07-15-2004, 09:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badatit:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
Oh thats easy I just ram the thing and blame it on lag ,then exchange insults about noob flying ability and warping technics for about the next half hour.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

As for the ACM situation...Time to alert you wingman, take your deflection shot, and extend.
You do have a wingman....dont you? I mean, your flying around and around and around....tell me you have sombody watching you back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On second thought (I've had some sleep)...
If you cant get a shot, without breaking out of plane, he's probally at his best corner speed.
Your gonna be in even worse shape if you try a high deflection, or snap shot on him. Plus, we have three more high, bogies inbound from the West (probaly the rest of his flight)...And one outbound, low, and smoking (shot-up friendly, no dought).
Dive out to the East, if he follows, break left ...and I'll swat him for ya http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

VF-10_Snacky
07-15-2004, 10:10 AM
Open canopy, pull out pistol, fire one shot and kill his engine.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/belushi_1941_4.jpg

Chuck_Older
07-15-2004, 10:31 AM
OK, I am really confused now...the enemy is stuck in a sustained turn.

quote:

You are in pure pursuit of an enemy bandit stuck in a SUSTAINED TURN

unquote

there is no danger of him climbing or diving, on reconsideration. he is stuck in a sustained turn. Stuck. Can't stop turning under any circumstance. All he can do is turn at that rate, and presumably, that speed.

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

diomedes33
07-15-2004, 12:03 PM
Here's what I'd do. This works really well if the guy has tunnel vision and knows he has a greater e-advantage.

level off and aim right for his tail and try to gain as much energy as possible. You will be flying straight gaining energy, while he is bleeding energy trying to turn on to your 6.

When he is about 45 degrees off your wing, start a climb about 15 degrees or so. Hopefully in the turn he bled so much energy that your starting to have the advantage.

Now you will be climbing while, he is on your 6. Hopefully he's far enough away that he is out of range.

You can do two things here.
1) continue your climbing extension and engage him at will

2) start steepining your climb until you loop or go into a hammerhead. If you did everything right, he will stall right below you and you will be diving on him when he has no energy to maneuver.

If you misjudge the bogey in option 2, you could get lit up at the top of your maneuver. So you have to make sure you will have a big enough e-advantage that it will keep you out of guns-range. If you are in doubt, just climb away and come back around.

If you want to bleed even more energy off the target, put a slight turn in the same direction (5-10 degrees) direction when you level off. This will force him to turn even more.

I fly 190 and 109s most of the time against allied aircraft. Usually means I have a climb advantage, so this is even easier. What you really have to look out for, is his wingman. This guy gets me more times than the guy I'm engaged with.

hope it helps.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

El Turo
07-15-2004, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HomeboyWu:
Well, no. Being slower doesn't gaurantee a tighter turn and/or a better turn rate. Ever heard of "corner speed"? It's the speed where the turn rate is highest, and it's nowhere near stall speed. So if the bandit is near corner speed, there's absolutely no way for a slower pursuer to pull lead in a flat turn.

Another example, at stall speed, which is as slow as you can get, you get ZERO turn rate and INFINITE turn radius. Not a good speed for turn fighting!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a HUGE difference between instantaneous turn rate and sustained turn rate. If I am on the guy's seven oclock and pulling pure pursuit (gunsight is ON his plane), then, at a lower airspeed I am able to turn momentarily tighter (albeit less efficiently and at the sacrifice of even more Energy). This provides me the split second I need to get my nose just a few small degrees higher to obtain my kill shot end game.

Of course, I don't recall the original situation dictating range to the bandit, but I assume it is at effective gun-range.

It's basic geometry that allows for the kill shot if the guy is going to continue a sustained turn.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 03:23 PM
Chuck you would make a good lawyer or you are reading too hard. Well its probably my fault for not being descriptive enough.

I just want to understand this concept, it is an imaginary situation ONE versus ONE, NO wingmen. Im looking for the maneuver that presents the greatest chance of success with the least risk to me.

When I say stuck, i mean both of you are stuck in the "stalemate" of a circle turn fight. Obviously you are not "permanently" stuck as you seem to be reading it. THe situation is suseptible to change.

Diomedes thats a feasible option although you run the risk that the bandit will see you extend and reverse his turn and close on you. He wont necesirily turn the long way and burn energy.

Assume you are up against an expert pilot.
Thanks again for everyones help in this hypothetical fantasy* situation.

El Turo
07-15-2004, 03:35 PM
If you're that close to a firing solution and following your bandit nearly co-E through a sustained turn, your best bet is to take a "line" (racing reference) that has higher peaks and lower valleys than his so you effectively cut the corner in the vertical.. out "yoyo" his yoyo, so to speak.

Although, if you're really on his 7 oclock and pulling pure pursuit (your gunsight is directly pointing at his aircraft), he is 95% dead already. Sacrifice a bit of energy by pulling back on the throttle slightly or kicking in a notch of flaps and get the extra few degrees of angle you need for a solution.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 03:39 PM
you are on to something turo. Please explain the first paragraph of your last post with the yo yos. The last part of your post doesnt accurately describe the situation i have imagined.

BaldieJr
07-15-2004, 04:06 PM
Go vertical.

flockzap
07-15-2004, 04:14 PM
Switch off your computer, thus avoiding any mistake from the first scenario, then sleep over it... and live to fight another day
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I would go for a low yo-yo, cut is turn and gain speed

S!
Flockzap

diomedes33
07-15-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Diomedes thats a feasible option although you run the risk that the bandit will see you extend and reverse his turn and close on you. He wont necesirily turn the long way and burn energy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The guy that you are behind is probably very angry that you are back there, and he's trying to shake you and deny you the shot by turning as sharp as possible. Most likely he'll be at corner speed or at least closer than you are.

When you go level, he'll keep turning. It will take him a couple seconds to realize that you aren't pursuing him anymore. You'll be gaining speed again. Now if he tries to reverse like you said, go into a shallow dive rather than a climb. If he is an expert pilot, he'd probably do a rolling reversal to retain as much energy as possible. In this case you will most likely end up in a rolling scissors, or extend away. If he does an in-plane reversal, you'll still have more energy then him and just extend away.

There is really no super-maneuver that will work 100% of the time. Ever move you have, has a counter, and you have a counter to that. As long as you have air under your wings there's a way to beat it. The hard part is seeing what the target is doing and judging how it reacts to what you're doing. Then adjusting what you're doing to make him screw up.

Much harder done than said by the way.

http://www.public.asu.edu/~guthriec/ubi_sig.jpg

El Turo
07-15-2004, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
you are on to something turo. Please explain the first paragraph of your last post with the yo yos. The last part of your post doesnt accurately describe the situation i have imagined.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imagine two hoops laying on the ground, one slightly larger than the other as representations of turning circles viewed from directly above.

Now, take the slightly larger hoop and pinch it at one end so it becomes a bit eliptical and lay it back on top of the smaller circle. You'll now notice that it crosses the smaller circle in at least two positions, maybe four.

When you are on the "up" swing of your yo-yo, you are trading speed for altitude and slowing down which reduces your turning radius and allows you to change directions quickly (the pinch at the top of your oval). As you come back down the back side of the yo-yo you are trading that altitude for speed and so on and so forth as you continue.

If he is performing a yo-yo as well, his "hoop" is going to be slightly elliptical as well. By making your "hoop" take on a bit more vertical of an angle, you will also have a tighter turning circle as seen from above and will (generally speaking) have more than one position where your flight paths will cross and you should have a firing opportunity if you have aligned yourself properly and assuming that you began in your bandit's close rear quarter.

That's the whole concept of the yo-yo is to improve your angles on your bandit by using thinking in three dimensions.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 08:36 PM
GREAT POSTS. by both diomedes and turo. thanks a ton!

patch_adams
07-15-2004, 08:42 PM
oh i do have a question for you turo. Do you recommend using flaps at all in the yo yo? you do have a lower energy state. Also when is the best time to begin your yo yo if he is doing the same thing? should you try and stay in the same plane(level with him) as the bandit, or should you be going down while hes going up, etc. What ususally provides the best shot opportunity?

El Turo
07-16-2004, 10:25 AM
Those are all good questions, but are really more of a case-by-case and an airplane-by-airplane kind of thing.

If you deploy flaps, you must do so with the conscious decision that you are sacrificing energy for angles and that if you blow your E for the shot and miss it, that you're likely opening the door for a reversal or at least a worsening of your relative position to some extent.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Chuck_Older
07-16-2004, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by patch_adams:
Chuck you would make a good lawyer .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I never insulted you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


OK, I understand what you mean now in your scenario

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

crazyivan1970
07-16-2004, 10:40 AM
Very good thread, useful for many.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

CRSutton
07-16-2004, 10:46 AM
"Ctrl E" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

geetarman
07-16-2004, 10:50 AM
Kinda hard to give advice when you're not actually "in" the fight. One thing, though, I try never to give up on my advantage. Seems like from your hypo, you're basically on his six and not the opposite. Therefore, at least for a time, you have the advantage. I would not roll and extend away for another set-up at that time.

I would attempt to continue the turn and raise my nose, via the rudder, to slightly gain alt. When high enough that I could convert to speed, I would high yo-yo into him and close the gap.

If his greater speed advantage during the turn starts to put him on your six, then it's time to bug out and try to extend.

Dnmy
07-16-2004, 11:22 AM
If you're stuck in lag you're not in position of advantage even if you're behind the bandits wingline.

You can be behind someone but at such an energy disadvantage that you pose no threat at all. No opportunity for a shot and no opportunity to pull lead as per the example here.

The guy in front with the energy advantage, assuming he's not a total rookie, wants you to think you are in position of advantage so he can have you on a leash (rope a dope).

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"killstealing only exists in the minds of score*****s"