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Riceball88
04-25-2004, 12:47 PM
Does anyone think the 109z is too good? Massive firepower and good speed, this machine is a handfull to dogfight against! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Riceball88
04-25-2004, 12:47 PM
Does anyone think the 109z is too good? Massive firepower and good speed, this machine is a handfull to dogfight against! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BuzzU
04-25-2004, 01:09 PM
Fantasy planes are always too good.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 01:14 PM
Nobody has thought about it as the ultimate long range 109 jabo. That's how I see it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Who knows it may be how Willy and engineers thought of it too and not just silly dogfighter. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
04-25-2004, 01:23 PM
Given how many times this has been discussed, and explained, I have to ask, are you little more than a troll, or, do you refuse to apply any effort and thought to the planes in the game? (to say nothing of not reading the forums actively lol)

Perhaps this thread should be locked or deleted now. Even if it's not an intentional troll (which I'd find hard to beleive), it's still gonna catch way too many fish. Just a waste of bandwidth and storage space.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Fennec_P
04-25-2004, 01:24 PM
I wish 1C would have made the one that was 6 bf-109s attached to each other 3 wide and 2 high.

It would go from 0-1100km/h in 12 seconds.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/urban.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 01:29 PM
Yeah but the ubi Newbies will find out what Fb109Z is and they will see how corny the old timer Z~Whiners look lol.

You know, the Newbies have stopped making threads asking where to find the flyable Gladiator. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
04-25-2004, 01:32 PM
Fennec, are you making some sort of comparison with those 3? The Urban Mech sucked even by 3025 standards. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

SKULLS Virga
04-25-2004, 01:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
I wish 1C would have made the one that was 6 bf-109s attached to each other 3 wide and 2 high.

It would go from 0-1100km/h in 12 seconds.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/urban.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone have a picture of this???

BuzzU
04-25-2004, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
I wish 1C would have made the one that was 6 bf-109s attached to each other 3 wide and 2 high.

It would go from 0-1100km/h in 12 seconds.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/urban.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone would still complain it was too slow.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Buzz
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/foto/anderson9.jpg

VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 01:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by il2master:
Does anyone think the 109z is too good? Massive firepower and good speed, this machine is a handfull to dogfight against! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes it is....most people here agree that it is...we've done this topic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

BlitzPig_DDT
04-25-2004, 01:45 PM
Prove it Ice.

I've been through this with you. I've taken it feature by feature and explained why it is not "too good". And I see abundand evidence why this place is so screwed up in such behavior from so many here.

Rather than going through it yet again, for no effect, prove that it is "too good".

Perhaps you are just not "good enough"? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-25-2004, 01:54 PM
With a plane that never existed and with no data how can we even debate such a question? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
=S=
www.vmf-214.net (http://www.vmf-214.net)
(The Original BlackSheep Squadron of IL-2)

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/hellcat_head_short.jpg

DJDalton
04-25-2004, 02:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF-214_HaVoK:
With a plane that never existed and with no data how can we even debate such a question? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
=S=
http://www.vmf-214.net
(The Original BlackSheep Squadron of IL-2)

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/hellcat_head_short.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

86 it

Get it out of the game

Its a theme wrecker

"I never lost a wingman"

Erich Hartmann

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 02:53 PM
LOL it grabs too much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Prof.Wizard
04-25-2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
I wish 1C would have made the one that was 6 bf-109s attached to each other 3 wide and 2 high.

It would go from 0-1100km/h in 12 seconds.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah I want one but can't find a link... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 03:31 PM
I knew when I saw the topic was 109Z that DDT would post...that the 109Z can be killed is not the issue, its the lack of vices it displays, given that it never flew, these will never be known...its FM is dubious, at best, regardless of AE estimates, they are human, and can err..
(remember also, that the FB 109Z is a conjoined 109G, which was never even built, let alone flew, the UNflown prototype was a conjoined 109F, making it twice removed from reality)
the other issue of the 109Z (in my opinion only, let it not be said I'm a "commie" or "fascist" as I've been called in my own deleted thread about 109Z and other non-flown types) is the possibility of more of these what if fantasy types being developed at the expense of "legitimate" types...
there are already too many estabished types that everone argues about, and feel need fixin, lets fix them, and get any future ones right, maybe THEN make room for fantasy planes.
Please excuse any grammatical, syntax or speeling mistakes. Please forgive whatever may be regarded as a personal attack on anyone, not intentional. Please forgive any ignorance I may show about any facts.
I ask for this forgiveness in advance, it seems most post I ever make on this subject is ripped for many of these reasons, too bad some people cannot respond to posts or debate facts or opinions with reason, my last 109Z/what if type thread was shouted down, I was called a commie, a fascist, and that I wanted to control people...then the thread was deleted after at least one person asked for it to be so, the same that called me a commie instead of debating my point...funny, he now has a thread about a certain type that is contrversial in FB, and while it is creative, and funny, (forgive me if I'm wrong here) it seems to take a jab at this particular a.c., I'm sure he wouldnt apprieciate anyone calling him a commie for this...and BTW, what was that about wasting space in the forum? seems THAT thread was a waste, too

RotGolem
04-25-2004, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
I wish 1C would have made the one that was 6 bf-109s attached to each other 3 wide and 2 high.

It would go from 0-1100km/h in 12 seconds.

http://members.shaw.ca/fennec/urban.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its roll rate would be porked http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-25-2004, 03:53 PM
You ask what ever questions you want il2master, most of these guys are morons any way!

yes i rule

BlitzPig_DDT
04-25-2004, 04:14 PM
Seeing Ki_Rin having posted here, I knew there would be more displays of ignorance, and desire to restrict everyone who would wish to play the game, all laced with a palpable intense dislike for the LW. I can see I was right. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

What I didn't expect was the seething hatred just below the surface and the attempt at subtle insults. lol Oh well. I really shouldn't be surprised.

My thread about the Ki-84 that you not so subtly referred to was not a jab at the plane. That's a really warped and demented view to come out of reading that thread with. It was a joke first and foremost, and, it was also a mild jab at the people that kvetch about that plane making it out to be some sort of alien spacecraft that doesn't obey the laws of physics as we know it. In fact, it was really a jab at all the people that complain about all the planes really. Because time and again, every thread, like this one, and most every post, like yours, are filled with bald faced ignorance and utter laziness. They don't know anything about the plane they are complaining about. Not IRL, and not even in the game. The claims made and charges leveled are always ludicrous. Furthermore, humor that is appreciated by large #s of community members is never a waste of space, trolling is. Not that I'd expect you to recognize that difference through the veil of your hatred. lol

Pray, tell us just what you think is wrong with it. What "vices" does it not have that other planes do have, that you think should be present.

You just won't admit that the only reason you are upset about it is that it's a LW plane that is competitive. The only difference between it and the 262 from your perspective is that you see there being more room to pitch a fit about this one since the 262 saw combat against enemy planes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:07 PM
Actually, I have no idea how you imagined I hate LW, while I dont fly German ac much at all, save the jets, and I perfer usa and brit types, I am not partisan, I love all ww2 ac types, at least the ones that flew...I stand corrected as to the song spoof, but dont get me wrong, I still enjoyed it
Please explain to me my ignorance...which fact ( at least about 109Z) am I ignorant of?
About the vices of 109Z...its just too easy to fly, too forgiving...the damn thing never flew, any possible comment about either its performance or its vices are moot, pure conjecture, and please, no crap about AEs knowing whats what, if that was the case, every ac type ever made wouldnt need flight test or prototypes, and just go straight into production, no?
only type i can think of offhand that went from paper to production was the B26 marauder, while moderatly successful, had to be modified from the original...looks like the AEs'predictions werent all that...
DDT, lets not flame, sir, we all love warbirds here, I just think relevant and proven types should take precedence over the fantasy jobs...may we discuss that issue only, with facts/and or reasonable debate?...please tell me (and others) just why the 109Z should belong with "real" types?

Prof.Wizard
04-25-2004, 05:13 PM
For me, every plane DESIGNED up until the official end of World War II (capitulation of Japan) is valid to enter IL-2 Sturmovik. Of course there are priorities, famous and popular aircrafts should enter first. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Jee guys, it's a simulation. Everyone's gonna whine for a small thing or two. Should I spam the fora to oblivion because I found out that my favorite's Me163 cockpit is not 100% as the real thing? No because it can't be... it tries to approach that in all aspects (from graphics to flight models). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

I'm sure Oleg and his team did their best to make the Bf-109Z as real as it might have been. And as it seems, they imagined it a good aircraft. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Last but not least, the aircraft will not always be the sole factor for air victories, remember that. Personally, I've died flying the most advanced jets and scored kills with I-16s... go figure! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 05:20 PM
Ki~rin:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>which fact ( at least about 109Z) am I ignorant of?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>(1) Cockpit and possibly external models easily modified from existing Fb109s in the game. This was an easy addition.

(2) 3D Max http://max3d.3dluvr.com/ in case you don't like the modders' work (bring your own money).



Ki~rin:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>DDT, lets not flame, sir, we all love warbirds here,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Real life fighter pilots always wanted to get their hands on the enemy's experimental warbirds. But then, we are only computer dogfighters here lol.

Yes, computer dogfighters Hate the Luftwaffe, Willy Messer and his hard working engineers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Why do I say that? Because the amatuer dogfighters say anybody who is interested in simming Messer's idea is wrong. So we go in circles of insult. Fine with me, I can deal with it lol.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:21 PM
DDT, please post the link for your gen discussion thread on the subject, Ive seen you refer to it before, but I cant seem to find it

Prof.Wizard
04-25-2004, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ki_Rin:
About the vices of 109Z...its just too easy to fly, too forgiving...the damn thing never flew, any possible comment about either its performance or its vices are moot, pure conjecture, and please, no crap about AEs knowing whats what, if that was the case, every ac type ever made wouldnt need flight test or prototypes, and just go straight into production, no?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
First of all, IMO it has a lot heavier feel than a single Bf-109, second what did you expect it to be? A second Bf-110? On paper it seems even lighter than the "Destroyer" and the performance-to-weight ratio is rather good.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
only type i can think of offhand that went from paper to production was the B26 marauder, while moderatly successful, had to be modified from the original...looks like the AEs'predictions werent all that...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Simulations are and will always be approximations. Oleg and his team probably placed their parameters in a computer, saw the final flight model and agreed on the outcome as pleasing. We now fly the model and are happy.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
DDT, lets not flame, sir, we all love warbirds here, I just think relevant and proven types should take precedence over the fantasy jobs...may we discuss that issue only, with facts/and or reasonable debate?...please tell me (and others) just why the 109Z should belong with "real" types?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Indeed, I don't know what happened between you in other threads but let's keep it civilized cause in the end you are both right.

Oh, and I agree with you that priorities must be respected. First the real deal and then fantasy planes, see my post above.

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 05:28 PM
--- Oh, and no I'm usually not that mean. But I am working on a dynamic campaign generator (Fortran) that can use any historic possibility that may arise like Germany winning the WAR or He~177 strategic bombing of Ural mountain factories (if we get He~177 that is).

As for the internet dogfight death match servers, the Fb109Z fits right into that Fantasy land anyway lol haha.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:31 PM
Lexx, I have no problem with the model of 109Z, its very well done, my problem is with its inclusion in a game that is touted as a "sim"...I know, I know, "simulation", to make something as if its real...but 109Z not real, just a hanger queen, no more, no less...I cant wait for more and more fantasy planes now, until almost no-one flies the real things, and FB becomes a pseudo-crimson skies
I dont hate LW, I dont hate VVS, or IJN/IJA, RAF or USAAF, I love all "real" types...
the Douglas Skyraider was on paper before VE day, should we be seeing Able Dogs in df servers?...it just dont seem right...
How about a XP-67 Moonbat?it flew a few times, and had revisions both done to it and planned....should that be in FB, with its "estimated" performance?...damn thing looks amazing, if youve ever seen it you know, but lets keep it REAL, please!

Prof.Wizard
04-25-2004, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ki_Rin:
the Douglas Skyraider was on paper before VE day, should we be seeing Able Dogs in df servers?...it just dont seem right...
How about a XP-67 Moonbat?it flew a few times, and had revisions both done to it and planned....should that be in FB, with its "estimated" performance?...damn thing looks amazing, if youve ever seen it you know, but lets keep it REAL, please!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well if it was up to me... YES! Afterall the game gives you the possibility to make multiplayer game rooms without one or more types of aircrafts.

So everyone is happy: you can make your "propeller-only" room or your "Crimson Skies" room. If we do what YOU propose though we'll only be flying the "usual stuff". Spits and Gustavs.

Oh, and regarding fantasy planes as a whole... in my books fantasy-rotten SWOTL has been one of the most successful games in history, even if it wasn't a simulation with the strict definition.

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:39 PM
Me hate the LW, lolol...I cant wait for the He100/112 and hope to hell we eventually get the Do-335, and especially the He219....and the FW 187 would be nice, too...geez, be nice to fly the henshel from the cockpit, too

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 05:41 PM
Ki~rin, we are not talking about the models but the ease of which the model was put into the sim with a minimum of resources. Fb109Z did not take resources away from other aircraft modding.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Well okay, I would prefer others like Do~335, but right now I'll take anything I can get for my historically possible dynamic campaign.

I have seen it said that Oleg also used the Fb109Z as an early experiment in future ideas for flight model coding. So in a way we may be guinea pigs in a test tube. But if so, if it means a better sim later I am Happy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

You must realize by now that all aircraft designers today "sim" their aircraft on computers long before any building begins. There is nothing radically new here in Oleg trying to predict a flight model on a computer and including it in a reasonably realistic sim. Also, your definition of "sim" may be internet death match servers where everybody Hates Fb109Z (but everybody flies it lol) rather than experimenting interesting "what ifs" in history. That's probably not the case, but just realize that Fb109Z did not take resources from other FB developments like Do~335.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

JG7_Rall
04-25-2004, 05:46 PM
Fly on historical servers or servers that have banned the plane. Problem solved.

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

BlitzPig_DDT
04-25-2004, 05:49 PM
Son of a.......! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

I had a huge response typed up and had a browser crash and lost it all.

Feck!

Maybe I'll try to recreate it later. I'm too frustrated over the loss to deal with it now. lol

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 05:49 PM
Oh and Ki~rin, if you want to prove you DON'T Hate the Luftaffe, make two threads in Oleg's Recovery Room entitled...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oleg, make Bf-109 B, C , and D please<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oleg, make Hs~123 Biplane ground attack please (historically better than Stuka)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, you pick one thread and I can start the other thread. Deal?

True Fans of the Luftwaffe ask for the planes Germany used to Rule the Sky! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 05:55 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
DDT:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Son of a.......!

I had a huge response typed up and had a browser crash and lost it all.

Feck!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>LOL haha http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Ki~rin, your off the hook! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:57 PM
Ok, good to know, Lexx (about not taking much resources to make it)...I would enjoy what if campaigns ( post45), I just cant help thinking that eventually most ppl will be cavorting about in Zs and god-only-knows-what else in future, making it like crimson skies...not all that impossible to imagine, given fliers want better ac, and most of these upcoming fantasy types (assuming there are more to come) will probably have superior performance, like the Z (not a world beater, but far for a slouch) most non-limited df servers now many ( dare i say most) ppl fly Ki84C, La7, and 109K, all top of the line performers...and so when the La7/La9, 109K, Ki84C pale against these "fantasies", and one will probably see less real types in use....and thats a shame...not to mention many younger or less informed ppl may take these fantasies to be as common and real as a Spit, or stang or Wurger...to have them alongside the real ones is (to me, Im NOT talking for anyone else, so no flames, please) doing them a real disrespect

Ki_Rin
04-25-2004, 05:58 PM
ok Lexx lol will post it tomorrow

LEXX_Luthor
04-25-2004, 06:06 PM
dude/dudette I feel you. I believe there are some servers that try to simulate realistic air warfare and not the death match servers, but its said the are disasters too lol. Honestly, "Fantasy" is the word best used for dogfight servers. Trust me when I say that the problem here is not Fb109Z but internet dogfighters. I always say flight sim realism is found offline in a good dynamic campaign....

*...LOL but FB didn't come with one....*

You want to see me BASH Oleg it will be over lack of dynamic campaign development tools forcing us to write a computer program and interfacing with, or "talking" to, the terrain and units on a map is a hideous task. Oleg really failed here miserably. The stock "campaigns" that shipped with FB are terrible, but only because of the sheer difficulty of making realistic air warfare missions. Also, the computers of that time could not handle enough aircraft and surface units to reasonably simulate frontline environment. But FB is so nice a sim its worth working to get one running.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Prof.Wizard
04-25-2004, 06:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ki_Rin:
not to mention many younger or less informed ppl may take these fantasies to be as common and real as a Spit, or stang or Wurger...to have them alongside the real ones is (to me, Im NOT talking for anyone else, so no flames, please) doing them a real disrespect<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Two things,
First) we the older are here to teach the younger which planes were real and in numbers and which not. Excuse me, but seeing more planes modeled in a simulation like this only a plus for me.
Second) you can't do anything about it. I would love to see in online rooms more people flying I16s and I153s (especially those elite guys who know they are good and could take on the challenge and fly something inferior) but persons tend to fly the best avail. And that's why the sky is full of these three aircrafts you mentioned.

There will always be the historical servers and/or those that prohibit year-after (eg '42) planes for those who feel... purer.

Personally, when they fix the Me163's engine bug I'll be flying the Komet almost everywhere it's permitted. Damnit, it's a real plane with advantages and disadvantages: SHOOT ME IF YOU CAN! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

XyZspineZyX
04-25-2004, 06:16 PM
Let's Flame, Let's Flame!!!! Germany Rules, the rest sucks. And Krazy Ivan is a bad moderator!!

FuryFighter
04-25-2004, 08:41 PM
as for the 109Z, I know this is a flame thread and is more of a pointless argument. But I have to add my 2 cents.

first off, there was actually a 109Z prototype. granted it may not have flown (no records exists as far as I know) but it was in existance.. in '43 I believe but was damaged beyond repair during an air raid. so its more than a hope or dream in terms of never existing. Some ppl need to research thier topics.

second. the 109Z is not uber. Its top dive speed peaks at 650, any faster and it sheds parts at an alrming rate. its roll rate is poor, its total agility is poor, its high speed (450km/h +) agility is terrible. As a dogfighter, the 109Z literly sucks. Also the view from the pit is rather dodgy.

However, its 2 powerful engines and large wing give it an excellent climb, and fairly decent low speed handling. It also has a fairly good acceleration and its guns are very heavy and will waste most planes with ease.

the weaknesses outweigh the good sides. But in good hands, the 109Z can match it with small and nimble La's and Kis with awesome terrifying effect.

http://www.angelfire.com/space2/messerschmitt262/cool_sig.jpg

JG6_Oddball
04-25-2004, 09:30 PM
cmon guys..dont you get it..the 109Z is olegs way of saying he has a sence of humor http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ...4 108's and 1 103...its a flying TIGER tank http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif who cares how it is modeled...its there for fun! enjoy flying "what could have been"

S!

http://www.geocities.com/rbmercsguild/pics/havespandua.txt

Bearcat99
04-25-2004, 10:32 PM
Theres no such thing. Everyplane in this sim has weaknesses. Look at the AEP track of the P-38 vs the Ki-84.. notice how the B&Z works in that plane. They all have weaknesses. I get shot down a lot.. but it isnt that the other guys plane is neccessarily better.. its always a combo of plane and pilot. When my skills foot the bill I come home on wheels.. when they dont..no matter what Im flying against or what Im flying I go to the refly button from my chute.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

Franzen
04-25-2004, 11:54 PM
I agree Bearcat. I also think certain plane suit certain styles. I fly the G2 all the time and get a few kills. But when I jump into a Spit(very seldom) I get a lot of kills. Although I love the LW planes and fly them 95% of the time they obviously don't match my fighting style. Most of the allied planes do.

I don't understand the complaining about the 109z. It's no different then taking a YP80 into combat. These planes are just extra little treats provided by Oleg and the gang. Why look a gifthorse in the mouth? This is just a game, awesome as it is, and not reality. The 109z is free and no one is obligated to fly it.

Fritz Franzen

Korolov
04-26-2004, 12:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
Fennec, are you making some sort of comparison with those 3? The Urban Mech sucked even by 3025 standards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but the Uber Urbie waddles. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Yes_I_Rule - did someone shove 20 squirrels and two ant farms up your a$$?

Bf-109Z - fun plane. YP-80 - even funner. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
04-26-2004, 12:01 AM
i see Ki-Rin dont like the Bf-109Z because its "too good"

but is it ?

the plane its based on is a VERY well understood thing . . . . the bf-109G6

aero design is a science & a well understood science

the fact that the Bf-109Z *could* be moddeled accuratly is TOTALLY possible

this sort of thing happens with every new A/C today ..... its not a new thing

EDIT : for my fricken n00bie spelling mistakes

XyZspineZyX
04-26-2004, 12:11 AM
funner not a work. Bad forum

Franzen
04-26-2004, 12:13 AM
I'm curious as to how anyone can say it's too good. There are so many things to consider, power, drag, and weight are just a few. Less wing area, more fuselage drag, two engines,(weight, power) even the tail has very different properties from the 109. As for the guns, that's simple. MK108 of the 109 times four. They are only powerful if you hit something. They are far from accurate. I would have preferred 8 151's but we must remember the design wasn't for dfighting. As I understand it was supposed to be a ground pounder. With pilots of equal skill the G2 will win.

So, my questions are; How can anyone claim its over or under? Relative to what? Who can actually claim they are 109z experten?

Fritz Franzen

Capt.LoneRanger
04-26-2004, 01:58 AM
I don't know is the 109Z is "too good".

IMHO it's okay, if there area other concept-planes or late-war-planes on the server.

I like the what-if-scenarios, too, and this is quite okay, but as we all agree, the "Z" never flew, so IMHO it should be banned on WW2-setting-servers, as the jets allready are. Just because 109Z has a prop doesn't make it any more WW2.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

Prof.Wizard
04-26-2004, 04:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:


I like the what-if-scenarios, too, and this is quite okay, but as we all agree, the "Z" never flew, so IMHO it should be banned on WW2-setting-servers, as the jets allready are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So what's really the problem? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
The jets existed but get banned the same.

Some people here just want to fly the same usual Spits vs Gustavs here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
Jesus guys, just don't fly the birds you don't like or don't get in servers that irritate you.

Anyway, my opinion on this thread: beating a dead horse...
http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_BeatADeadHorse.gif

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

Capt.LoneRanger
04-26-2004, 05:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So what's really the problem?
The jets existed but get banned the same. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THAT's the problem IMHO, since jets are banned, 109Z are not. That's why I said, there's no difference jets and 109Z. I don't even complain about 262s - they catch fire so quickly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
But when banning concept-fighters, jets or those actually never seeing action in europe, you cannot stop at 109z.

I don't have anything against bf109z, to make that clear, but hey, I also like flying jets and I cannot on most servers. But 109z is on practically all servers - so, where's the difference? Just because it has props?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

SeaFireLIV
04-26-2004, 05:24 AM
...I must.. resist.... reesssissstt!!

NorrisMcWhirter
04-26-2004, 06:22 AM
Hi,

Too good? Who knows?

What we do know is that the P38 is 'too good' with it's asbestos engines and clown guns.

Seems that this forum is full of 'the P51/47/38/.50cals is/are not good enough' and 'the &lt;insert Axis plane&gt; is too good' posts.

No wonder things are becoming biased.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
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Capt.LoneRanger
04-26-2004, 06:36 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

P38 too good? Sorry, but who do you mean with "WE know"?

Every plane has a weak spot and it's own strengths. So do the 109z and other planes, too.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

JtD
04-26-2004, 06:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Urban Mech sucked even by 3025 standards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the Urbanmech is totally overmodelled.

Capt.LoneRanger
04-26-2004, 07:12 AM
UrbanMech sux AND is ugly as hell.

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

NorrisMcWhirter
04-26-2004, 10:37 AM
"P38 too good? Sorry, but who do you mean with "WE know"?

Every plane has a weak spot and it's own strengths. So do the 109z and other planes, too."

Agreed: All planes have strengths and weaknesses.

I say 'we' because I'm not the only one who thinks the .50s are currently overmodelled (if they weren't, they wouldn't be addressed in the patch or so it is said) and 'we' know that it doesn't matter if you have a fire on a P38 engine because you can happily sit on the runway, with it blazing away, knowing that it isn't going to blow up (which I did in Warclouds TOH, yesterday, to much amusement - we were singing songs and toasting marshmallows around/on my number 2 engine).

What I am saying is that it is peculiar how the guns of the LW, in particular, are now less effective; a situation made even worse by the apparent increase in durabilty of their counterparts.

Cheers,
Norris

================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

: More irreverence :
http://www.tvgohome.com/

: You've seen them... :
www.chavscum.co.uk (http://www.chavscum.co.uk)

crazyivan1970
04-26-2004, 11:06 AM
Just another plane....

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

S 8
04-26-2004, 11:29 AM
When I fly all these "to good" planes they´re not good at all. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/113_1080237361_supersig2.jpg

p1ngu666
04-26-2004, 11:34 AM
it stalls better than a p38 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
good accel/climb but not that good in highspeed
id like the F version http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

LEXX_Luthor
04-26-2004, 11:58 AM
Wow, we seem to have formed a silent consensus, even at the ubi.com. Fb109Z being in the FB is 'okay' but teh onwhine "community" seems to be the problem. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack


"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Ki_Rin
04-26-2004, 02:52 PM
C'mon, IceFire, let it all out, hehehe...
Any plane has a weakness, when it's in the crosshairs...
For myself, it's not a question of 109Z being too good, it's simply that it's an unflown type in a "sim", when it belongs in crimson skies, STOLw, etc...
As I have stated before, the real thing (that never flew) was from 109F series...the FB 109Z is based on the paper (never built) 109G series.
The built Z was probably made with war weary clapped out Fs to check fit n finish etc.
Beyond me why jets are mostly banned, at least in a df server they are equally as hard to kill as they are easy to keep from killing one's self.
Even more interesting is that the Ki84C is often a banned type, but the Z still there...geez, the KI84C should be there before the Z, after all the A and B models are legit combat types, (I dunno if the C ever flew) the C merely being upgunned, and perhaps beefier wings for the extra weight and recoil. I dont know about structure changes in the C, if they ever happened, or if this is the case in FB.
It doesn't matter if an unflown type is really a dog or uber, it doesnt belong in FB.
I should say that I like the idea of what if scenarios, including the Z, thats fine, but its wrong to mix it in with legit types.
Wait till some 3rd party delevoper submits a TRULY uber unflown type that FM is only limited by his imagination, or what an AE optimisically
hoped his baby would do...and so on, and so on, and so on...........
Hard to find a server without Zs', I will still fly in them (the servers, not that BS Z) with the Z, but I will only ever imagine the pilot behind the monitor in the Z is a 13 y.o. kid that gets off playing ANY video game with all the cheats on, invulnerability, unlimammo, that sorta thing...fly what u want, but I think most pilots know the score on the Z...for lame-o's.
Is there anyone else that feels the Z flies more like the 38 SHOULD?

geetarman
04-26-2004, 03:00 PM
Funny, I have not seen one online for a few weeks now.

LeadSpitter_
04-26-2004, 03:14 PM
its funny the 109z has no elevator compressibility issues like the p38j bf110 and the p82 twin mustang had.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/newsig.jpg

Neww_Guy
04-26-2004, 04:36 PM
Holy Cats- I knew Ki-Rin was bitter about the whippin he got OVER a month ago, But never did I dream he'd be bitter enough to wear out ANOTHER keyboard over it. Its boring and even a little scary to see the same drivel rehashed as in the thread locked on 3/21/04.LET it GO!!

I do find it kind of wierd that he defends the KI-84 ( a plane I've seen him enjoy) as belonging in this sim- yet it was NEVER in europe....but the 109Z a GERMAN aircraft does not??

to summarize- Blitzpig DDt is right- just as right as he was back in march. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ki_Rin
04-26-2004, 07:48 PM
neww, if I know the Ki C never flew, id like to see it get same treatment as the 109Z, whatever that may be...and dont forget, we have the pacific "flavor" maps now, making any IJN/IJA type valid, excepting, of course (in my opinion), those that never flew.
Looks like, now that I'm writing this paragraph, that I'm going to sink to your level of stupidity and get my a** whipped by your experience, to use a clever phrase. You beat me once in a Z, SO WHAT? I've been killed by all sorts of pilots, in all sorts of planes...if you read my posts fully, you can see my points about the Z have nothing to do with what you are saying. Please, lets discuss the subject at hand reasonably, stop spewing. I just finished reading your post about TK/KS, and while you do raise valid points (bravo!), your tale shows your temper, let it go, man.
sure, I have enjoyed the Ki, but since AEP ive only flown the C a few times to check it out, but ive also flown many other types, including the Z....SO WHAT?
DDT was right in march? oh, you must mean when he called my among other things, a commie and fascist for airing my views. Thats what id like to do, here, now as well.
I know you will prob say more cr p to me, but try to avoid it....lets talk about the Z, hm?
The same drivel? looking at this thread alone, a lot of ppl in FB have a lot of opinions about the Z, Im not the only one on about the Z, wether for or against.
This sentence replaces one I wrote, but retracted, I dont wanna sling shet, sir, tell me about the Z instead, k? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BlitzPig_DDT
04-26-2004, 10:00 PM
Holy ****, is this thing still going?

I'd honestly forgotten about it with the Exchange 5.5 recovery and AD implementation I've been doing at work, combined with zilions of little fires here and there.

Anyway, Ki-Rin, your entire argument flawed. First off, you state that it is impossible to determine how it flew, because it never had test results or annecdotes. You are apparently incapable of comprehending that sometimes designers ust get it right, and that the concept the Z was built on was as old as dirt before the Z was ever thought of, and so was FAR from uncharted territory. They knew exactly what they were doing, and why, and what to expect. The ensuing 60 some odd years have left us with far greater understanding of aerodynamics and the ability to predict how a given design will fly so accurately, that many, if not most, modern designs are prototyped in software, and modified if necessary, and the test pilots and engineers know exactly what to expect before ever lighting the engine for real. &lt;- something else you seem incapable of accepting or understanding. It just happens that rather than a brand new design, this process is applied to the 109Z.

You comment about the P-38 shows more of the lack of understanding I referenced in my last post.

The core of your argument simply cannot be any of the above though, or else you'd not be so passionate about it's removal or consistent banning. Rather, it is something much more closely related to hating it because it's an opponent that is capable and you see it's lack of pre-existing data as a perfect opportunity to b|tch about it, and/or you just have an innate desire to control everyone else. Like I said before, wishing to regulate the fun we all can have, forcing us to the same, drab, boring, done to death a zillion times in sims and other fiction, creativity lacking plane set you obviously prefer.

Earlier you asked why it should be present with "real" planes. You state that "what if" scenarios are the only place for planes like the Z. Well, what you clearly aren't considering is that, even when you take a Yak up against a 109 of the same year, in a map location where those types actually met, in a full blown "realistic" recreation of a historical battle................it's *still* a "what if" scenario. Simply because you are involved and interacting. Having a side that lost historically, win any given battle re-enactment, or indeed, *any* DF server, is a "what if", and no different than having planes that never saw combat in WWII - like say, the F8F.

I would suggest that you'd have more fun by simply shaping the environment you play in as you see fit by hosting and enjoying the game rather than pissing and moaning in an attempt to get Oleg to screw up the FM based on your lack of understanding and flawed argument.....but it seems that would be incorrect. I've seen behavior like yours far too often. This is much more entertaining for you.

Sad. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

BlitzPig_DDT
04-26-2004, 10:01 PM
Holy c r a p, you can't say rap without using tricks or being censored. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

TAGERT.
04-26-2004, 10:10 PM
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TAGERT.
04-26-2004, 10:12 PM
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TAGERT.
04-26-2004, 10:12 PM
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Neww_Guy
04-26-2004, 11:55 PM
to KI-Rin

extended YAAWWWNNN