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pres_
05-29-2004, 11:56 PM
To the old hands here this is probably a statement of the bleeding obvious, but I only just worked this out after two weeks of playing. I've been reading too and this hasn't come up in the articles I've read so I thought I'd share.

I've been trying to get on the six of my targets and firing only when AoT is almost nothing ... that is, when I am directly behind them. This is easy to calculate because there is no need to lead shots. *But* I have found that this is hard in other ways, planes are not super vulnerable from behind. Even with cannons, wing shots, tail shots and especially fusilage shots are not greatly damaging and a lot of ammo may be needed. So I had a study of deflection shots and found two important things :

1. The adjustment you need to make is not often a fine adjustment. Look at your replays from the bogie's point of view, I learnt a lot from doing this. At short range I am firing and the bogie is not at all withing my reticule for a good shot. Sometimes quite far from.

2. A shot on the top of the wing, if the wing is under stress (the bogie has his stick back, as he will if he's circling) from a cannon can easily smash the wing off. Fuilage shots can smash off the whole tail.

Long story short - deflection shooting is harder but if you can get one good one on him he's going down.

pres_
05-29-2004, 11:56 PM
To the old hands here this is probably a statement of the bleeding obvious, but I only just worked this out after two weeks of playing. I've been reading too and this hasn't come up in the articles I've read so I thought I'd share.

I've been trying to get on the six of my targets and firing only when AoT is almost nothing ... that is, when I am directly behind them. This is easy to calculate because there is no need to lead shots. *But* I have found that this is hard in other ways, planes are not super vulnerable from behind. Even with cannons, wing shots, tail shots and especially fusilage shots are not greatly damaging and a lot of ammo may be needed. So I had a study of deflection shots and found two important things :

1. The adjustment you need to make is not often a fine adjustment. Look at your replays from the bogie's point of view, I learnt a lot from doing this. At short range I am firing and the bogie is not at all withing my reticule for a good shot. Sometimes quite far from.

2. A shot on the top of the wing, if the wing is under stress (the bogie has his stick back, as he will if he's circling) from a cannon can easily smash the wing off. Fuilage shots can smash off the whole tail.

Long story short - deflection shooting is harder but if you can get one good one on him he's going down.

Gyre1
05-30-2004, 12:12 AM
Good first post Pres_! Welcome aboard.

The #2 observation is potentially very useful and totally makes sense. I've made alot of kills this way but never would've articulated the reason as well as you've done. Good job!

Gyre

3ghz Northwood on a gig of fast rambus stuff. Mitsu 930sb and 9700pro. Saitek x36usb, WinXP, TBSC sound, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Jetbuff
05-30-2004, 12:25 AM
Wait till you get to snapshots, (approx 90? or higher AoT) they're even better! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://members.rogers.com/teemaz/sig.jpg

Resident_Jock
05-30-2004, 12:40 AM
Deflection shooting is essential if you want kills in this game. Nobody is going to stick around and let you get on their six unless you bounce them and they are caught looking at the pretty cockpits :P

The problem is that there is no real tips to give since every deflection shot is different. The only thing I can think of is on high angle snapshots, it's better to line yourself up on the target's last known vector (I say last known because he will most likely be out of sight) and when you think he is approaching your cone of vision, let loose until he flies past. You may not hit him if he has maneuvered, but in most cases you will score hits. Keep in mind that doesn't mean hold down the triggers for 5+ seconds, that should only be a few moments.

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg

karost
05-30-2004, 02:44 AM
well, good skill for you

ok let me share you my offline training , I like I-16 ace for my target training


http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_A.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_B.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_C.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_D.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_E.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_01_F.JPG

now let's see how I do that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_A.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_B.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_C.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_D.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_E.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_F.JPG

well see again with this view http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_02_A.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_02_B.JPG
http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_02_C.JPG

just try 90 degree deflection shot you will like it.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

Abraxa
05-30-2004, 03:17 AM
Pres, if you have Excel, try this utility, the Sniper's Corner.

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/SC_2_Eng.zip

It was created by Bruno and myself and it was made to learn deflection shooting.

BBB_Abraxa

http://ourworld.cs.com/Abra772/Data/veltro.jpg

G_Unterberg
05-30-2004, 06:44 AM
karost - excellent tutorial

thanks!!

uberweng
05-30-2004, 07:28 AM
karost,
Cheers for the post, it was really helpful and well done.

Uberweng

TD_Klondike
05-30-2004, 09:43 AM
Abraxa, that's a fantastic tool. Thanks.

VonKlugermon
05-30-2004, 09:58 AM
karost has excellently described what hunters would call "lead"! Anyone that ever hunted quail, dove, ducks, etc., would instantly recognize that sequence! Good job Karost!


Willy

Dawg-of-death
05-30-2004, 10:08 AM
Excellent ........

BadM-F(Mongrel-Fighter)...... AKA Dawg-of-death

VW-IceFire
05-30-2004, 10:12 AM
Thats some awesome deflection shooting. I'm terrible at the snap shots in most aircraft so I concentrate on 20 degree's deflection shooting which still means you're on their tail but not right on their six.

Weapons such as .50cals do massively better when shooting a deflected target because you can rake the target from oblique angles and pour your fire across the target rather than from a slim profile from the rear (the FW190 is particularly slim from the rear profile).

If I'm not mistaken most gunsight rings at 20 degree's deflection. Once I learned that and what it looks like you can hit with .303's and other weapons at 300 meters with deadly precision.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Vargtass-0e
05-30-2004, 10:33 AM
I would also like to point out that you need practice to make good deflection shots. If you play alot, you will obviously improve. Lately I have been alot better taking down planes from 9 o clock .. i really prefere it, just like the pictures posted by karost shows .. my fav.pos now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif practice practice practice http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

karost
05-30-2004, 01:32 PM
Hey, Thank you for everyone who like my tutorial ~S

EDIT:
And this is for a blind spot deflection shoot track file
Hi yoyo and blind spot deflection shooting (http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/track/hi_yoyo_blind_deflection.ntrk)
this track file show about pull lead to shot a blind spot position


120-90 degree blind spot deflection shooting (http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/track/gg_10_df_zero.ntrk)

this track file is good for zero, spitfire sample but not easy, you have to replay with 1/4 speed when the time I open fire to study the angle of deflection, a pilot was kill by machine gun not a cannon

I'll try to make more screen shot tutorial for you if you like it.

S!

HotCarl73
05-30-2004, 04:27 PM
great post karost. i'm going to view your tracks right now, could learn something. speaking of learning, pres_, it's spelled fuselage. not busting on you or making fun, just letting you know.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/HotCarl73-KrustyPatch.jpg

Sofiyah
09-14-2004, 07:44 AM
hi

the link for the recoards.rar is dead, but great posts any way, we should use this thread as form of faq for people who are not used to deflection shooting. I have beein playing this sim for years but I cannot get the hang of it, well thats is due to lazyness and me not bothering to learn http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I just played il2 for fun and that was off line. I have never been online yet,this is partly due to fear and time, plus my internet connection was not too hot.

good posts guys
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

VMF513_Sandman
09-14-2004, 09:01 AM
can u do the same in p-38's with 50 cal and 20mm...should be no differnt than those 1/2 pound bowling ball mk108's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Diablo310th
09-14-2004, 09:08 AM
One thing I have noticed with the new .50's is that you don't have to pull as much lead anymore. In fact I have cut my lead as shown in Snipers Corner to 1/2 of what is shown. I find I get alot more hits this way.

http://img54.photobucket.com/albums/v166/310thDiablo/DiabloSig.gif

karost
09-14-2004, 12:52 PM
Hi,Sofiyah
Thanks for call my post at the top again.

Oh sorry for dead rar file, now I update new track file ( that is a same track file that post at your tread ) just look at same place again.

S!

karost
09-14-2004, 02:35 PM
DFR (deflective fuselage range)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Diablo310th:
One thing I have noticed with the new .50's is that you don't have to pull as much lead anymore. In fact I have cut my lead as shown in Snipers Corner to 1/2 of what is shown. I find I get alot more hits this way.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you right Diablo310th ~S~

your .50 M2 (ap) has Muzzle Velocity about 880 m/s but MK 108 30mm has 505 m/s

http://www.allthaiproperties.com/tempsite/bmax/fb/img/109G6/109DF90_04_B.JPG

I found a tip to calculate DFR (deflective fuselage range) from one web site three years ago and not remember that url now. that is a good guildline ( estimate ) to setup a "red cycle" in my picture for setup deflection shooting point
--------------------------------------------------------------
DFR = (P * T ) / 9
T = R/MV
--------------------------------------------------------------
MV = Muzzle Velocity of bullet ( m/s )
R = Range to shooting
T = Time ( sec. ) of Muzzle Velocity from shooter plane to target plane ( R )
P = target plane air speed ( m/s)
9 = 9 meter of fighter fuselage range ( so it more easy than estimate with meter unit )


from my picture I estimate I-16 speed about 350 km/h and I will open fire at 100 meter

R = 100 meter
P = 350 km/h -&gt; 97 m/s


for .50 AP(M2)
============
MV = 880 m/s
T = 100/880 = 0.11s
DFR = (97 x 0.11)/9 = 1.2


for MK 108
===========
MV = 505 m/s
T = 100/505 = 0.19s
DFR = (97x0.19)/9 = 2.0

so DFR for your .50(m2) is 1.2 , and for my MK 108 is 2.0 that's why you can set up deflection point shorter then me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


# remark: this calculation is for a basic guildline for setup a deflection shooting profile please remine that
1. you don't know how fast for a real air speed of your opponent in a moment that you open fire
2. you not sure for a correct range to open fire ( in case no icon )
3. bullet Muzzle Velocity that I refer may / or may not are the same data in a game parameter

So... have good skill and good hunt http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

S!


good URL if you want to make your own DFR table
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-pe.html
http://www.axishq.wwiionline.com/~ring/info/ammo/ww2ol-weapons.htm