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View Full Version : The He-219: Germany's Most Overrated Plane?



SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 05:21 PM
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From History of the German Night Fighter Force by Gebhard Aders.

Though the He 219 is recognized by all as the most efficient German night fighter type, its performance was not as extraordinary as is often claimed. In fact, the type never achieved even the values given in its manual. For instance, with almost full fuel tanks and full armament the He 219 could not get above 8000 m (26,250 ft) altitude, and passed the 10,000 m (32,810 ft) mark only at an equipped weight of about 10 tons - in other words with almost empty tanks and nearly all ammunition used up. And then it hung in the sky like a 'ripe plum', as the pilots used to say, and would stall at 5 m/sec (16.4 ft/sec) from a normal blind flying turn. Level performance was also less than it appeared: the He 219 could only reach its 'paper' maximum speed of 605 km/h (376 mph) if no night fighting equipment was fitted. With Lichtenstein and engine flame dampers the maximum was a good 45 km/h (28 mph) less at 6,200 m (20,340 ft) altitude and fell to about 500 km/h at 8,200 m (311 mph at 26,900 ft) - much too slow to catch a Mosquito at full power. Until June 1944 only two Mosquitos are known to have been shot down by He 219s.


and

from Wings of the Luftwaffe


I found no opportunity to fly the later DB 603G-powered He 219A-5, but imagine that it did not display any markedly different handling or performance characteristics to those of the A-2...
...I had read German reports that, fully loaded, the He 219 enjoyed an ample surplus of power and that an engine cutting immediately after take-off or during the approach presented little danger. There was, it is said, an instance of a pilot making an emergency take-off on one engine with his undercarriage locked in the 'down" position and with flaps fully extended! If there is any truth in this last report, I can only say that for this extraordinary feat the aircraft must have been equipped with JATO and have had a very long runway indeed! In my view, the Heinkel fighter, certainly in its He 219A-2 version - was decided underpowered. An engine failure on take off must have been a very nasty emergency to handle at night as, below 137 mpg (220 km/h) the aircraft was difficult to hold straight...
...The rate of climb was certainly unimpressive...A full power run at 20,000 ft revealed somewhat sluggish acceleration and a top speed of 378 mph (608 km/h), which was somewhat below the German handbook figures...
...From my experience with the He 219A-2, I would say that this Heinkel fighter's reputation was somewhat overrated. It was, in my view, basically a good night fighter in concept but if suffered from what is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin-engined aircraft can have - it was underpowered. This defect makes take-off a critical maneuver in the event of an engine failing and a landing with one engine out can be equally critical. There could certainly be no overshooting with the He 219 in that condition. Furthermore, it appeared to be short on performance to deal with the Mosquito, a task which was, in part, its raison d'etre.


Everything I've ever heard suggests this planes was the end-all-be-all German nightfighter. Guess not.

BTW, I predict 5 pages.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 05:21 PM
http://www.jg53-pikas.de/Uhu.ht1.jpg

From History of the German Night Fighter Force by Gebhard Aders.

Though the He 219 is recognized by all as the most efficient German night fighter type, its performance was not as extraordinary as is often claimed. In fact, the type never achieved even the values given in its manual. For instance, with almost full fuel tanks and full armament the He 219 could not get above 8000 m (26,250 ft) altitude, and passed the 10,000 m (32,810 ft) mark only at an equipped weight of about 10 tons - in other words with almost empty tanks and nearly all ammunition used up. And then it hung in the sky like a 'ripe plum', as the pilots used to say, and would stall at 5 m/sec (16.4 ft/sec) from a normal blind flying turn. Level performance was also less than it appeared: the He 219 could only reach its 'paper' maximum speed of 605 km/h (376 mph) if no night fighting equipment was fitted. With Lichtenstein and engine flame dampers the maximum was a good 45 km/h (28 mph) less at 6,200 m (20,340 ft) altitude and fell to about 500 km/h at 8,200 m (311 mph at 26,900 ft) - much too slow to catch a Mosquito at full power. Until June 1944 only two Mosquitos are known to have been shot down by He 219s.


and

from Wings of the Luftwaffe


I found no opportunity to fly the later DB 603G-powered He 219A-5, but imagine that it did not display any markedly different handling or performance characteristics to those of the A-2...
...I had read German reports that, fully loaded, the He 219 enjoyed an ample surplus of power and that an engine cutting immediately after take-off or during the approach presented little danger. There was, it is said, an instance of a pilot making an emergency take-off on one engine with his undercarriage locked in the 'down" position and with flaps fully extended! If there is any truth in this last report, I can only say that for this extraordinary feat the aircraft must have been equipped with JATO and have had a very long runway indeed! In my view, the Heinkel fighter, certainly in its He 219A-2 version - was decided underpowered. An engine failure on take off must have been a very nasty emergency to handle at night as, below 137 mpg (220 km/h) the aircraft was difficult to hold straight...
...The rate of climb was certainly unimpressive...A full power run at 20,000 ft revealed somewhat sluggish acceleration and a top speed of 378 mph (608 km/h), which was somewhat below the German handbook figures...
...From my experience with the He 219A-2, I would say that this Heinkel fighter's reputation was somewhat overrated. It was, in my view, basically a good night fighter in concept but if suffered from what is perhaps the nastiest characteristic that any twin-engined aircraft can have - it was underpowered. This defect makes take-off a critical maneuver in the event of an engine failing and a landing with one engine out can be equally critical. There could certainly be no overshooting with the He 219 in that condition. Furthermore, it appeared to be short on performance to deal with the Mosquito, a task which was, in part, its raison d'etre.


Everything I've ever heard suggests this planes was the end-all-be-all German nightfighter. Guess not.

BTW, I predict 5 pages.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Fornixx
01-31-2004, 05:25 PM
Bringing popcorn and a fire extinguisher......

Seriously I read the same thing somewhere. Strange considering the good rep it has gotten overall.

S!

DeBaer.534
01-31-2004, 05:31 PM
there always two or more points of view.
anyway, my favourite nightfighter is the ta154 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tenmmike
01-31-2004, 05:31 PM
i just glanced through a book that was only about it..their conclusion was the same over rated ..but mainly because of it being under powered...the plane never recieved the attencion from OKL that it should have as there were other planes that were doing a fair to good goob already ( me-110 and ju-88)..i believe it could have been a very very good plane but was not as high on priority as maybe it should have been
i predict only 3 at most though.(crosse fingers)
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Boandlgramer
01-31-2004, 05:32 PM
hehehe, no popcorn, no beer.
but i hope, ASAP somebody come in for a good entertainment.
here we go, its skychimps party http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif .

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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Xnomad
01-31-2004, 05:33 PM
I take this as a personal attack on what I've ever stood for! My great uncle worked for Heinkel! This means war! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

Red_Storm
01-31-2004, 05:34 PM
So here we have just you with two sources saying it sucks and millions of online sources saying it was the best German night fighter. Well, sorry to bring it to you, but it wasn't overrated. The He-219 was one of Germany's finest nightfighters.

DeBaer.534
01-31-2004, 05:34 PM
just think about the me262 nightfighters (dont know if these were already planned by this time). there would not have been any need for another additional nightfighter and the earlier planes did the job well as said.

SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 05:36 PM
What party? I'm just posting some qualified opinions on the plane.

Looks like Heinkel wasn't the only aircraft producer to publish better-than-real-life performance specs to get sales.

They would have been better off with the Mosquito.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
So here we have just you with two sources saying it sucks and millions of online sources saying it was the best German night fighter. Well, sorry to bring it to you, but it wasn't overrated. The He-219 was one of Germany's finest nightfighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, according to these guys, if this was Germany's finest night fighter, they all must have been poor performers.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Fornixx
01-31-2004, 05:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DeBaer.534:
there always two or more points of view.
anyway, my favourite nightfighter is the ta154 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The one with the radials you mean..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Tully__
01-31-2004, 05:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
So here we have just you with two sources saying it sucks and millions of online sources saying it was the best German night fighter. Well, sorry to bring it to you, but it wasn't overrated. The He-219 was one of Germany's finest nightfighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you read all of SkyChimp's post, he said he had thought the same but here are two evaluations from different sources (at least one of them German by the look) which say otherwise. Neither of them completely pan it, but both say that in operational trim it seemed to suffer from a lack of power in anything but ideal circumstances (at best).

I do grant that maybe the thread title is a bit extreme...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Salut
Tully

Boandlgramer
01-31-2004, 05:57 PM
you can say what you want, the best german nightfighter was the
Wolpertinger Special 133( active in the nighthours only )
was built from an small company in upperbavaria.
my scanner is down at the moment, but may skychimp can help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he is what we are calling "Schmarrnkibe" in aviation .

btw, the heinkel 219 sucks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 05:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boandlgramer:
you can say what you want, the best german nightfighter was the
Wolpertinger Special 133( active in the nighthours only )
was built from an small company in upperbavaria.
my scanner is down at the moment, but may skychimp can help http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif he is what we are calling "Schmarrnkibe" in avaition .

btw, the heinkel 219 sucks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I can find a picture of one somewhere. Otherwise, I can draw one myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
SkyChimp
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SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 06:01 PM
Here's a provocative thought: while the He-219 was overrated, the P-61 Black Widow was underrated.

I think the P-61 would have opened a can of whoop-a$$ on the He-219 in a one-on-one.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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DeBaer.534
01-31-2004, 06:03 PM
hehe, yeah the wolpertinger is a great thing.
i saw some last year down there in bavarian in action, many are still intact! the plain look at it makes you know that it combines the best of everything. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Boandlgramer
01-31-2004, 06:04 PM
yes please chimster, do it, you have a great fantasy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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faustnik
01-31-2004, 06:05 PM
Where is the P-61 underrated? I have always read that it was excelent at its job.

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Boandlgramer
01-31-2004, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Here's a provocative thought: while the He-219 was overrated, the P-61 Black Widow was underrated.I think the P-61 would have opened a can of whoop-a$$ on the He-219 in a one-on-one.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not bad for the moment, but you can it much better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


btw. i am out here, i need my sleep, good night friends .

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg

SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boandlgramer:
yes please chimster, do it, you have a great fantasy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would, but let's keep this thread serious and on on-topic - the mediocre and overhyped performance of the He-219.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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rugame
01-31-2004, 06:29 PM
BAH..

The best nightfighter Germany had was...

Radar controlled flak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WhiskeyRiver
01-31-2004, 06:42 PM
I wonder which version the report is talking about. They used 5 or 6 different engines in the different He219 models

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

LEXX_Luthor
01-31-2004, 06:49 PM
Possibly most effective in design concept, but the theoretical comparison fails because the USA aircraft design offices were never bombed repeatedly like the He-219 offices. This was one of the reasons for the bombing campaign, and it succeeded in Delaying basic research into He~219 development engineering.

Test Pilot:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"I found no opportunity to fly the later DB 603G-powered He 219A-5, but imagine that it did not display any markedly different handling or performance characteristics to those of the A-2..."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Note that no reasoning is given for this assumption. Nor are any Test Pilot names given.

I think we are still Red in the Face about P~47D~27 Roll. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



__________________
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LEXX_Luthor
01-31-2004, 06:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder which version the report is talking about.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not enough information given. But didn't that thing carry so much equipment that it HAD to suffer? Especially with the pressurized cabin? They probably would have optimized all that if the performance crippled missions bad enough, given time and freedom from bombing. I dunno.

From what I read Milch was "hostile" in this case because he was trying to put limits on the number of programs that Germany could not afford. That's all I know.



__________________
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DaBallz
01-31-2004, 07:05 PM
Keep in mind that a night fighter in 1944 need not
be much of a fighter. The P-61 was also a bit
under powered, and the P-70 was a converted
Douglas A-20 attack bomber. Both proved excellent
night fighters.

The P-61 could turn like a Zero, perhaps better (!).

I seem to have read where in desperation the
Luftwaffe in the west was forced to use night fighters
against day bomber formations. They were massacred
by both bombers and fighters.

i see NO reason to rate the He-219 anything but
an excellent night fighter. But that don't
make it a Mosquito or a P-38!
I would venture a guess it would have come
off second to a P-61 or an P-82.

Da...

F19_Olli72
01-31-2004, 07:10 PM
"On November 2-3, 1944, one He-219 downed six bombers in 12 minutes"
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm

Not bad for a mediocre, underpowered fighter....i wonder what that pilot wouldve achieved with an avarage, normal powered fighter hmmmmmm Not to mention it could catch Mosquitos http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

GoodKn1ght
01-31-2004, 07:21 PM
i dont believe anyone with a monkey in thier sig.

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

GoodKn1ght
01-31-2004, 07:23 PM
SC, what name do you use on HL? or do you not play online

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

SkyChimp
01-31-2004, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
"On November 2-3, 1944, one He-219 downed six bombers in 12 minutes"
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm

Not bad for a mediocre, underpowered fighter....i wonder what that pilot wouldve achieved with an avarage, normal powered fighter hmmmmmm Not to mention it could catch Mosquitos http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently for a plane that was supposed to be directed at Mosquitos, it did rather poorly against them.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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F19_Olli72
01-31-2004, 07:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
"On November 2-3, 1944, one He-219 downed six bombers in 12 minutes"
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm

Not bad for a mediocre, underpowered fighter....i wonder what that pilot wouldve achieved with an avarage, normal powered fighter hmmmmmm Not to mention it could catch Mosquitos http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently for a plane that was supposed to be directed at Mosquitos, it did rather poorly against them.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Its true, but then again...there werent many a/c that had the speed of the Mosquitos besides Me262 or Me163. Nevertheless, i would hardly call a fighter wich got 20 bombers and 6 mosquitos on its first 6 operational sorties a "mediocre" fighter. Werner Streib downed five RAF Lancaster bombers in this planes first ever combat sortie. From what ive read the He219 was a well liked plane by both pilots and groundcrew. And RAF did not like it. So it depends on how you define "mediocre" i suppose.

DaBallz
01-31-2004, 07:50 PM
Its true, but then again...there werent many a/c that had the speed of the Mosquitos besides Me262 or Me163. Nevertheless, i would hardly call a fighter wich got 20 bombers and 6 mosquitos on its first 6 operational sorties a "mediocre" fighter. From what ive read the He219 was a well liked plane by both pilots and groundcrew. And RAF did not like it. So it depends on how you define "mediocre" i suppose.[/QUOTE]


If you use the same standard to rate the Bolton Paul Defiant
you would come to the conclusion the Defiant was
a super fighter after the Battle for Dunkirk.
----We know better----

Da

tenmmike
01-31-2004, 07:54 PM
hey chimp your gonna get your number of pgs i already concede http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif....everybody else im a big 219 fan but when you look deep it was flawed not as engerring defect but of a OKL not pursuing it like they should have so in the end it was overrated even though it could have been great..IMHO

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F19_Olli72
01-31-2004, 07:58 PM
If you use the same standard to rate the Bolton Paul Defiant
you would come to the conclusion the Defiant was
a super fighter after the Battle for Dunkirk.
----We know better----

Da[/QUOTE]
Ok then, how about the 100s of sources that says he219 was the best nightfighter of the war...thats good enough for you? Its just cause Skychimp found 2 sources that says it was not good..whatever like i said theres lots more that contradicts those 2..have fun with this ill move on to CONSTRUCTIVE threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Olli72 on Sat January 31 2004 at 07:18 PM.]

Tully__
01-31-2004, 08:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
SC, what name do you use on HL? or do you not play online

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hardly has anything to do with the topic GK, chill.

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Salut
Tully

GoodKn1ght
01-31-2004, 08:58 PM
i just wanna know so i can kill him god whats the big deal

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"

pourshot
01-31-2004, 09:07 PM
You want to "kill" him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

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Ride It Like Ya Stole It

Gibbage1
01-31-2004, 10:16 PM
The P-61 would wax the He-219 any day

[This message was edited by Gibbage1 on Sat January 31 2004 at 10:22 PM.]

GonzoX
01-31-2004, 10:50 PM
Why worry about it and and why all the research?

The 219 will most likely NOT make it to FB anyway. And neither will the mossie so what's the point?

Arent there's enough of planes in the current FB to complain about LOL?

ausmondo
02-01-2004, 12:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
"On November 2-3, 1944, one He-219 downed six bombers in 12 minutes"
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm

Not bad for a mediocre, underpowered fighter....i wonder what that pilot wouldve achieved with an avarage, normal powered fighter hmmmmmm Not to mention it could catch Mosquitos http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently for a plane that was supposed to be directed at Mosquitos, it did rather poorly against them.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't have much in the way of reference material.
But one source has a factory document which gives a count of '7 Mossies kill'.
One source tells me that the He219 was a
"Good idea but underpowered.'
An other source tells me that the He219 was so good that, not only could it land on one engine,
but...take off on one engine.(?)
I do not believe that the He219 was designed to target Mossies.
Rather, to target bombers.
The biggest problem for the He219 was
Milch.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
( And the fact that Heinkel would not pay the bribe.)
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necrobaron
02-01-2004, 01:14 AM
I wouldn't be suprised if the He-219 was over-rated,but at least it looked cool.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

JG26Red
02-01-2004, 01:21 AM
WOW, skychump calling a german aircraft overrated and pointing out an american plane was better... now thats something you dont see everyday... lol

Boandlgramer
02-01-2004, 01:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
WOW, skychump calling a german aircraft overrated and pointing out an american plane was better... now thats something you dont see everyday... lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

surprise , surprise, if you see the headline of the thread and the name of the topicstarter, you know always what is coming http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. ( not with our friend SC only )



ohhh, good morning guys, have a nice sunday.

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg

wastel
02-01-2004, 03:35 AM
hi all,

the "underpowered" He219 was the only LW nightfighter that could fly with one engine
and hold its alt..even climb a bit. that was mentioned by lots of former NF pilots.

there is an nice good book out (in german) aboutthe 219,relatively new. to bad i dont have it.lots of infos there i guess.

and well..after doing research in the 109series i learned one thing..don't trust an allied test.

greetings
wastel

Aaron_GT
02-01-2004, 03:41 AM
Skychimp writes:
"Apparently for a plane that was supposed to be directed at Mosquitos, it did rather poorly against them."

The He219 was dsigned to attack heavy bombers.
At the time of its design Mosquitos weren't
flying NF escort missions with the bombers.
Thus it is unlikely thet the 219 was supposed
to be directed at Mosquitos. The Ta154 is the
plane that was designed o be the German Mosquito
(hence its name Moskito).

In terms of performance, the P61 and He219
weren't so different - P61 - 366mph as
originally delivered (didn't reach 425 until
the C version) against the He219's 367mph.
Pretty much a dead heat.

As originally delivered the P61 was also
considered to be underpowered and lack
sufficient high altitude performance, hence
the C version of 1945. The Germans were also
developing high altitude versions of the
219. Lack of official support for the project,
which ended in 1944, stopped deployment of
these.

Armament was fairly similar in power between
the two aircraft.

The P61 was more manoeuverable, so in a head
to head fight, the P61 would probably win,
but then neither type was actually designed
to dogfight.

The Mosquito NF series were only a little
faster - 5 to 10mph on the whole, than the
first P61 series.

Basically all three twin engined nightfighters
were of relatively similar speed performance,
if differing in range and high altitude
performance (Mosquito being better than the
first P61 series and the 219 at altitude),
and packed relatively similar power of
armament on the whole.

Aaron_GT
02-01-2004, 03:44 AM
Btw, the P61 was an excellent night
intruder - better than the He219 in
this projected role for it, and could
carry a much heavier bomb load than
the Mosquito NF series. In the end
the P61 was employed more as a low
level night intruder than as a true
night fighter.

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 03:54 AM
You all know that the top speed so often quoted is for a stripped a/c. No antenna for the radar, no flame dampers, some weapons removed.


@ WhiskeyRiver

What were those 5-6 engines used?


@ Olli72

So what, after Streib's good night, the He217 claimed a further 128 a/c in the next 5 months, of which only 10 were Mosquitos. It should also be noted that the night got his 5, was one of the worst nights for losses by the RAF of WW2.



Long live the Horse Clans.

Bill_Door
02-01-2004, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG26Red:
WOW, skychump calling a german aircraft overrated and pointing out an american plane was better... now thats something you dont see everyday... lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL 'fair and balanced' SkyChip http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I am not to sure what or who is "overrated" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Bill_Door on Sun February 01 2004 at 03:20 AM.]

Boandlgramer
02-01-2004, 04:34 AM
the special Mosquitohunter version was the A 6
(According to "Typenhandbuch der Deutschen Luftfahrttechnik". )
it was a lighter version with DB 603 E
without engine-armoring and without "schr¤ge musik ".

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg

AaronGT
02-01-2004, 07:09 AM
I suppose I should clarify. Originally the
He219 project was intended to be a fast
bomber, but was retasked to the night
fighter role from 1941. Still before the
Mosquito threat, though.

AaronGT
02-01-2004, 07:24 AM
Milo - It's still a fair comparasion if the
figures for speed of the Mosquito, P61, and
He219 are in similar configuration. Hard to
know, though, as most books give relatively
thin information unless they are specific
to the type, and often not even then. And
sometimes they are for initial variants of
the type (e.g. Spit XIV figures seem to mostly
be available for the prototype, even in the
really exhaustive sources I used to have
the links to on my PDA before the cat broke it!)

The 366mph (A2) figure is for a version with attenae, though. The He-219A-5 reportedly
managed about 380mph with attenae. The A-7
could manage up to 416mph, but that was
might well have been in a stripped configuration.

Also I would hardly say what even the A1 was
ineffective against Mosquitos (the A1 was
definitely underpowered) as in the first 10
days of operation in 1943 6 Mosquitos were
reportedly downed by it. Of course, you have
to treat some of these statistics with a grain
of salt. Also it might be that the Mosquitos
were simply unprepared for any plane moderately
comparable in terms of speed, rather than
indicating that the He219-A1 was in any way
comparable to the Mosquito.

If you look at the A2-A7 run, though, the
performance is relatively similar to the NF.II
(A 1942 plane) in terms of speed, although
later versions of the NF series were in
operation. Sadly I haven't been able to track
down the Mosquito book Milo recommended to find
stats for the later NF marks. I would syspect
that the later Mosquito NF Marks were faster,
though, as otherwise they wouldn't have
created the faster He219-A6.

DaBallz
02-01-2004, 07:47 AM
All versions of the p-61 were under powered.
Aircrews referred to them as "land lovers"
because they used 7,000' of runway to take off
when fully loaded.

the RADAR was of a American/British design that
used short wavelength (microwave) frequenqcies.
It was superior to anything the Germans had developed.

In a night fighter of 1944 speed was less important
than the performance of your radar.

The He-219 was developed as a bomber destroyer.
It did very well in that role. BUT I would never
think of it as the best night fighter that
saw service in WWII. The P-61 easily takes the nod
for it's RADAR. It's performance as an aircraft
was similar.

Da...

Red_Storm
02-01-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
So here we have just you with two sources saying it sucks and millions of online sources saying it was the best German night fighter. Well, sorry to bring it to you, but it wasn't overrated. The He-219 was one of Germany's finest nightfighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you read all of SkyChimp's post, he said he had thought the same but here are two evaluations from different sources (at least one of them German by the look) which say otherwise. Neither of them completely pan it, but both say that in operational trim it seemed to suffer from a lack of power in anything but ideal circumstances (at best).

I do grant that maybe the thread title is a bit extreme...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

=================================================

http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm

_IL2 Forums Moderator_
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Salut
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but I knew Skychimp was gonna bring up something like "Well, but I think [insert American plane here] was much, much better than [insert German plane]." and I was growing tired of seeing the same discussion over and ovre and over again. Gibbage, Skychimp and Tagert vs. people who like other nation's planes. It grows so tiresome and it's so childish.

Kampfmeister
02-01-2004, 08:25 AM
I always liked the He 219, and thought it was a great aircraft which could have made a significant impact on the allied bombing campaign had it been produced in significant numbers. Then along comes SkyChimp with his post and pisses in my cereal to ruin my day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif To think all this time I always thought he looked like such a cute little monkey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well I guess I'll just take it with a grain of salt. I have no idea what that really means http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I still like the 219 and think its a cool plane. It was definitely a much heavier aircraft than either the P-61 or the Mosquito. Perhaps had Heinkel managed to make it out of wood like the Mosquito, it's performance would have been much better.

But anyway, what source do you go by? Here's one out of my Illustrated History of Fighters book. "Political resistance to the type was to some extent overcome by the first operational flight of a pre-production A-0, which resulted in the destruction of 5 Lancaster Bombers, and the fact that six Mosquitos - previously almost immune - were among 20 more aircraft quickly downed."

Now, on to page five and beyond http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SkyChimp
02-01-2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tully__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red_Storm:
So here we have just you with two sources saying it sucks and millions of online sources saying it was the best German night fighter. Well, sorry to bring it to you, but it wasn't overrated. The He-219 was one of Germany's finest nightfighters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you read all of SkyChimp's post, he said he had thought the same but here are two evaluations from different sources (at least one of them German by the look) which say otherwise. Neither of them completely pan it, but both say that in operational trim it seemed to suffer from a lack of power in anything but ideal circumstances (at best).

I do grant that maybe the thread title is a bit extreme...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

=================================================

http://www.mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm

_IL2 Forums Moderator_
http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm

Salut
Tully<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but I knew Skychimp was gonna bring up something like "Well, but I think was much, much better than [insert German plane]." and I was growing tired of seeing the same discussion over and ovre and over again. Gibbage, Skychimp and Tagert vs. people who like other nation's planes. It grows so tiresome and it's so childish.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Notice how, espcially you Red_Storm, the vocal-majority-Luftwaffe-Fans are as quick to jump to the defense of a German plane as they claim I am to jump to the defense of an American plane? Ironic, huh? Yep, no German bias there.

Come on now, Luftfans, 2 more pages needed to support my prediction.

[I]Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

jensenpark
02-01-2004, 08:51 AM
I really don't care...

I think it's a deadly (and cool) looking plane.

What's the armament on this beast?

http://images.ucomics.com/images/doonesbury/strip/thecast/duke2.jpg

"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

Aaron_GT
02-01-2004, 09:12 AM
Well, I'm certainly no Luft-fan, and was
defending/hoping for the inclusion of the
P-61 in another thread. It was an excellent
night intruder, superior to the Mosquito
due to its much better load carrying capacity,
although by the time of its introduction
there were increasingly few opportunities for
it to be employed as a true nightfighter.

However, in aircraft performance terms the
Mosquito, P-61 and He-219 are fairly close
on the whole, with variation between sub
versions of course. The He-219 in late 1944
was faster than the P-61 at the time, but
the P-61 outstripped it by the appearance of
the C version of the P-61. The He-219 was
also a bit mediocre in the standard versions
above 9000m, and had a lower ceiling. Due
to the project cancellation in May 1944
high altitude versions never really appeared,
although they were prototyped.

Radar is another matter, of course, and
performance in the night intruder/bomber role
is yet another matter again.

Given the relative performances and apparent
success of the He-219 in the night fighter role
(admittedly in a target rich enviroment) it
would be wrong to dismiss it as medicore.

Aaron_GT
02-01-2004, 09:17 AM
Back to the original post subject - was
it overrated? Hard to say. That's a
question of historical interpretation of
its record, and hard to interpret of itself.
We can compare figures, tallies, maybe one
day, if sims support it, test it.

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 10:55 AM
AaronGT, there was no A-7 as there was no DB603G motors. The 416mph is not for the A-7 and is the speed when stripped.

The Mosquito NF 30 could do 655kph/407mph while the FB VI was good for 610kph/380mph. The B IX was good for 690kph/430mph. Now the FB and B weights are after dropping the bombload.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Long live the Horse Clans.

Boandlgramer
02-01-2004, 11:28 AM
Milo,
according "Typenhandbuch der Deutschen Luftfahrt Technik"
there was a A7 with an DB603 G
1 exemplar was also tested with the Jumo 222.

DB 603 G with 1900 PS, but there were just few built.

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg

C_FA
02-01-2004, 11:31 AM
Hmmm!!
Just was reading in the book War Planes of the 3rd Reich and it said,

Improved deliveries of the DB603G resulted in the final A-series version to appear on the assembly lines,
the He 219A-7 whitch was to become the most important service version of the fighter.

He 219 A7: final standard model, 1900 HP, DB 603 G, always with MK 108 as (schrage Musik) plus g 1 two MK 108 in the wings, two MK 103 at the belly, R2 four or six MK 108 forward, R3 two mg 151/20 in the wings, two mg 151/20 and MK 108 at the belly, R4 ever two mg 151/20 in the wings and at the belly. Listed top speed as 416 mph at 22965 feet.


There was a anti-mosquito model listed, the He-219A-6 nothing more then a stripped down 219A-5 with DB 603L engines.

He 219 A6: easier " Mosquito " hunter variant with equipment 11950 kg, DB 603 L, two-stage engine with MW 50und Gm-1 injection, 650 km/h, flight altitude to 12000 m.

~S~

Boandlgramer
02-01-2004, 11:36 AM
C_FA ,
the A 6 was an lighter version of the A2 with DB 603 E

Boandlgramer
Ein Stück vom Paradies ist Mein Bayern. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
http://images.google.de/images?q=tbn:10LP6FCHtuYJ:www.vhts.de/bilder/wappenbayern.jpg

jeroen_R90S
02-01-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wastel:
{snippetysnap}

there is an nice good book out (in german) aboutthe 219,relatively new. to bad i dont have it.lots of infos there i guess.

and well..after doing research in the 109series i learned one thing..don't trust an allied test.

greetings
wastel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello Wastel,

Is that Roland Remp's book on the 219 or is there a new book about it? Gotta save some money, then! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Overrated? Maybe.
Ugly? Definately.
Slow? You bet.
Interest-factor? 9/10 for me!

Jeroen

WWMaxGunz
02-01-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
If you use the same standard to rate the Bolton Paul Defiant
you would come to the conclusion the Defiant was
a super fighter after the Battle for Dunkirk.
----We know better----

Da<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok then, how about the 100s of sources that says he219 was the best nightfighter of the war...thats good enough for you? Its just cause Skychimp found 2 sources that says it was not good..whatever like i said theres lots more that contradicts those 2..have fun with this ill move on to CONSTRUCTIVE threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Olli72 on Sat January 31 2004 at 07:18 PM.][/QUOTE]


It depends on what you call Sources doesn't it?

What are SkyChimps sources? They read as if they were there and flew the plane but still there are details missing and maybes about if those planes tested were the best or average of the make.

If by Sources you mean 100's of people posting whatever they agree with on the net then forget counting because just ONE favorable report just as open as SC's TWO could be picked up and repeated as many times as there are fans who don't check or care for anything but whims. That is why taking accounts or numbers from histories written after events to balance out original reports and data is a false method to reach results. That's probably why Oleg insists on original documents and not 2nd, 3rd and more hand repeated accounts from later written books.


Neal

Red_Storm
02-01-2004, 01:36 PM
I personally believe the Mosquito, the Uhu and the Blavk Widow were very comparable. All three of them were great nightfighters and they each had their own ups and downs.

Oh, and Skychimp. Don't call me a nazi-lover. I live in The Netherlands and my grandma herself housed Dutch partisans in her farm. But not only partisans, she also housed British paratroopers while the Germans had made her farm into a field HQ. She risked her own life trying to safe these people. Remember that this is just a game we're playing and people that fly Luftwaffe aircraft don't necesarrily believe in the Third Reich's visions.

FW190fan
02-01-2004, 01:54 PM
Well, I'll have to admit - this thread has made me re-think the He-219.

I had kind of written it off after reading Eric Brown's report on it a long time ago, but looking a little closer it appears to be a pretty good aircraft after all.

Thanks Aaron GT and others - good info.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_FA:
Hmmm!!
Just was reading in the book War Planes of the 3rd Reich and it said,

Improved deliveries of the DB603G resulted in the final A-series version to appear on the assembly lines,
the He 219A-7 whitch was to become the most important service version of the fighter.

He 219 A7: final standard model, 1900 HP, DB 603 G, always with MK 108 as (schrage Musik) plus g 1 two MK 108 in the wings, two MK 103 at the belly, R2 four or six MK 108 forward, R3 two mg 151/20 in the wings, two mg 151/20 and MK 108 at the belly, R4 ever two mg 151/20 in the wings and at the belly. Listed top speed as 416 mph at 22965 feet.


There was a anti-mosquito model listed, the He-219A-6 nothing more then a stripped down 219A-5 with DB 603L engines.

He 219 A6: easier " Mosquito " hunter variant with equipment 11950 kg, DB 603 L, two-stage engine with MW 50und Gm-1 injection, 650 km/h, flight altitude to 12000 m.

~S~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is why one has to be careful with Green.

From the LEMB by a Felix99 who seems to know what he is talking about.

" As far as I know, there never was a He 219 A-7. I don't think that the He 219 was ever powered by anything other than the DB 603A. The farthest they ever got was the He 219 A-5/R2 which was still powered by the DB 603A, and was apparently converted from one of the prototypes. This, and four A-2s were the ones brought over to the UK. In addition, as I recall, the He 219 brought to the USA was also an A-2. If there had been any later sub-types I would have thought that they would have been included in the aircraft brought to either the UK or USA.

I imagine there are later C-Amts production reports on the He 219, but the latest one I have, for Nov 44, indicates that to that point only A-0s and A-2s had been produced. And, I find it difficult to believe that with all the chaos of the late war period there would be much development still possible on the aircraft."



Long live the Horse Clans.

KIMURA
02-01-2004, 02:37 PM
Ohhh, a new carousel game, did I miss something???

Yes the He219 was that overrated as 50 RAF airmen can proved that overrating the first night Steib took off for a kleine Nachtmusik.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Ohhh, a new carousel game, did I miss something???

Yes the He219 was that overrated as 50 RAF airmen can proved that overrating the first night Steib took off for a kleine Nachtmusik.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did the "heavies" have extra crew onboard KIM? Lans, Stirlings and Halis had 7 man crews.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif There was 38 a/c lost that night on the raid on Dusseldorf.

It also should be noted that Steib crashed on landing.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Just an extract from the He219 by Remp which commented that the Mossies flew at 9-10km where the 219 could not catch them. pg91



Long live the Horse Clans.

F19_Olli72
02-01-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Ohhh, a new carousel game, did I miss something???

Yes the He219 was that overrated as 50 RAF airmen can proved that overrating the first night Steib took off for a kleine Nachtmusik.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, i brought that up already, but someone said Bolton Paul Defiant was just as good (if not better)..... Guess we have to trust that chap since he never posted any stats http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Milo...does it matter? 5 bombers vs 1 fighter is a very good tradeoff (a poor one for RAF)...and the pilot survived so he could continue fighting. I mean cmon its not like he was Jesus or something,....theres a limit what a man can do!

DaBallz
02-01-2004, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Ohhh, a new carousel game, did I miss something???

Yes the He219 was that overrated as 50 RAF airmen can proved that overrating the first night Steib took off for a kleine Nachtmusik.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, i brought that up already, but someone said Bolton Paul Defiant was just as good (if not better)..... Guess we have to trust that chap since he never posted any stats http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"If you use the same standard to rate the Bolton Paul Defiant
you would come to the conclusion the Defiant was
a super fighter after the Battle for Dunkirk.
----We know better----

Da"


Above it the post you refered to Olli72.
You Luftwhiners resort to taking comments
out of contex when you are cornered.
It's become predictable.

Da...

C_FA
02-01-2004, 03:20 PM
Well if we start using the internet for data like (LEMB)Luftwaffe Experten Message Board.

These web pages support what is in War Planes of 3rd Reich book.

Here`s some.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/heinhe219.html.

http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/aircraft/night/he219_text.html

http://iquebec.ifrance.com/2iemeguerre/avions/heinkel_he219a7_uhu.htm

http://www.army.lt/air/vok/vok1.html

NASM Home Page
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/heinkel_219.htm


Plus many more with all having the same basic data.
These web pages support what is in War Planes of 3rd Reich book.

I would say that its posible to have somethings off ,printed incorrectly or just plain wrong all together.
But the numbers there. Not all of them can be wrong I would think.



Quote:
This is why one has to be careful with Green.
From the LEMB by a Felix99 who seems to know what he is talking about.

Green???
Felix99 (seems to know)??


~S~

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 03:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
Milo...does it matter? 5 bombers vs 1 fighter is a very good tradeoff (a poor one for RAF)...and the pilot survived so he could continue fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, but only part of the story was told.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And, those 5(38) a/c lost did not save Dusseldorf.

More, 783 a/c took-off with 693 finding the target. The loss rate was only 4.85%. Every seviceable LW NF was in the air that night.



Long live the Horse Clans.

F19_Olli72
02-01-2004, 03:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DaBallz:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Olli72:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KIMURA:
Ohhh, a new carousel game, did I miss something???

Yes the He219 was that overrated as 50 RAF airmen can proved that overrating the first night Steib took off for a kleine Nachtmusik.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, i brought that up already, but someone said Bolton Paul Defiant was just as good (if not better)..... Guess we have to trust that chap since he never posted any stats http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


"If you use the same standard to rate the Bolton Paul Defiant
you would come to the conclusion the Defiant was
a super fighter after the Battle for Dunkirk.
----We know better----

Da"


Above it the post you refered to Olli72.
You Luftwhiners resort to taking comments
out of contex when you are cornered.
It's become predictable.

Da...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I disagree;
#1 Did any Defiant shoot down 5 bombers on its first opretional mission??? No, what i was talking about if you wouldve understood my post was that the first missions was very successful and gave a hint about the potential of He219. But you did what the "anti axis planewhiners" always do; starting to blab that the allied planes was sooooooooo much better.

#2 Cos if you knew anything about me you wouldnt call me luftwhiner. On contrary i like both allied and axis planes. My biggest favorite in fb is the Brewster for example...after that the bf109. What does that mean? Absolutely nothing except that you ASSUME a lot of things you know nothing about. But this thread is about as constructive as "P51 won the war" thread and my mistake was to reply. Thats all...

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_FA:
Well if we start using the internet for data like (LEMB)Luftwaffe Experten Message Board.

These web pages support what is in War Planes of 3rd Reich book.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lots of copy and pasting.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The LEMB has some very smart people posting who know their German a/c. Some are even working on some German a/c books, such as Butch and ErichB.



Long live the Horse Clans.

Korolov
02-01-2004, 03:37 PM
The He-219 sucked. End of story.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

ElAurens
02-01-2004, 03:41 PM
http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/popcorn.gif

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

C_FA
02-01-2004, 04:01 PM
Lots of copying and pasting!

Yeah whatever!

Beer time!!!!!!!

MiloMorai
02-01-2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C_FA:
Lots of copying and pasting!

Yeah whatever!

Beer time!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While you are having that beer, cold I hope, check and see in your book what guns were listed for the Me109K-4.



Long live the Horse Clans.

SkyChimp
02-01-2004, 04:17 PM
If Heinkel published numbers the He-219 couldn't achieve just to get orders, what other German company did that? Focke Wulf?

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Blottogg
02-01-2004, 05:07 PM
I'm still contemplating SC's 1st page matchup:

[quote]

I think the P-61 would have opened a can of whoop-a$$ on the He-219 in a one-on-one.

[end quote]

Sort of like "Marco Polo" in the dark with cannons. "Marco" brrrraaappp..., "Polo" boom, boom, boom...

As for his "unnamed" sources, "Wings of the Luftwaffe" was written by Capt Eric "Winkle" Brown (and edited by William Green, sorry Milo.) I just got my used copy. Nothing like the musty smell of a 30 year old book. A good read so far though. I haven't read Gebhard Aders' book.

I'm still trying to reconcile the "Land Lover" reputation of the P-61 with stories of it "out-turning Zeros". Something doesn't jive, but my copy of AHT hasn't shipped yet. Airspeed and flap settings at which the turns were made will probably explain it.

Getting back to the subject at hand, what I've read here so far tells me the Uhu was deadly against 4-engined night bombers, and less so against Mossies. And that with 6+ cannon, armor, exposed radar aerials, a pressurized cabin (and its hardware), and a relatively small wing, it was perhaps a little horsepower challenged, at least on the back side of the L/D curve. Anybody surprised or offended by this?

Blotto

"Speed is life." - Anon
"Sight is life. Speed is merely groovy." - "Junior"

SkyChimp
02-01-2004, 08:14 PM
Page 5 yet?

I win.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

Kampfmeister
02-01-2004, 09:04 PM
Hey! That's cheating SkyChimp http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

FW190fan
02-01-2004, 10:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
The LEMB has some very smart people posting who know their German a/c. Some are even working on some German a/c books, such as Butch and ErichB.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Felix99 has posted some good and interesting info over there.

If I'm not mistaken Willaume is also writing a book and Schwarzman(sp?) has worked on German engines as well as doing some advising to Oleg I think.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

FW190fan
02-01-2004, 10:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Page 5 yet?

I win.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it would have been more impressive if you would have just shut up after your initial post and see if the thread could grow legs of it's own without, ahem, "nurturing" it along.

Not some of your best troll work but still, five pages is five pages after all. Hell, you might get 6-7 pages if *******es like me keep participating in it.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

Old_Canuck
02-01-2004, 10:57 PM
Sorry, SkyChimp, I know very little about the He-219 but here's a pic of the world's best night-fighter with highest amount of aerial kills http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00004R9VZ.01.MZZZZZZZ.jpg

OC

"You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing."

robban75
02-01-2004, 11:03 PM
Priceless Canuck! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/Dora-9-3.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

Hristo_
02-01-2004, 11:28 PM
He 219 was perhaps very good, but given that new projects like Me 262 night fighter version and Do 335 were soon to be available, it was a little behind its time.

It sure was fast for a two engined prop, equipped more than adequately (except gunner barbettes) and cool looking, but I'd rather be in a Do 335 if the sky was full of Mosquitos.

Underpowered ? You mean like P 51 ?

JR_Greenhorn
02-01-2004, 11:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Page 5 yet?

I win.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it would have been more impressive if you would have just shut up after your initial post and see if the thread could grow legs of it's own without, ahem, "nurturing" it along.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I, for one, would like to see that done.

Korolov
02-01-2004, 11:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
If Heinkel published numbers the He-219 couldn't achieve just to get orders, what other German company did that? Focke Wulf?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, Focke Wulf didn't NEED to! Though I'm sure some other specific company did... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Cajun76
02-02-2004, 03:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FW190fan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Page 5 yet?

I win.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but it would have been more impressive if you would have just shut up after your initial post and see if the thread could grow legs of it's own without, ahem, "nurturing" it along.

Not some of your best troll work but still, five pages is five pages after all. Hell, you might get 6-7 pages if *******es like me keep participating in it.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did someone mention "*******es"? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Whaddya need? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

OC, that there "nightfighter" is absolutely vital in Louisiana. I think the mosquito is our state bird.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Realfire_02.gif
Have you thanked a veteran today?

Aaron_GT
02-02-2004, 03:42 AM
"I'm still trying to reconcile the "Land Lover" reputation of the P-61 with stories of it "out-turning Zeros". "

I think the "Land Lover" reputation is a comment
on the high altitude performance, which was
largely fixed in the P61C.

"Nope, but only part of the story was told. And, those 5(38) a/c lost did not save Dusseldorf."

Milo, what has this got to do with the
relative merits of the He219? It's a pretty
meaningless argument as to the relative merits
of a plane since they have to be deployed in
sufficient numbers with the right tactics to
be effective. The LW was certainly on a
losing wicket with regard to the pressure of
Allied bombing on the whole, apart from
occasional wins forcing temporary suspensions
of activity. The He219 was a low production
plane on the whole, so it didn't have any
chance of defeating raids on its own. A single
initial sortie in a target rich environment
with crews not expecting to encounter anything
as effective certainly shouldn't be taken
as proof that the type as a whole was super
effective, not least because new types tend
to be given to the most experienced pilots -
a case of the man not the machine, or rather
the machine needs to be effective enough to
complement the man.

I tend to be sceptical about kill:loss
ratios, or kill:sortie ratios as you have
to take careful account of operational use
and target opportunities, and it is pretty
damn hard to account for all of them. Even
if a unit swapped from one plane to another
with no change of operational use, you'd
have to take into account them changing from
worn out planes they were familiar with
to brand new ones they weren't. Complex to
decide on.

SkyChimp:
With regard to the speed tests in the P-61
thread, was the Mosquito it flew against a
1944 model, similarly stripped? The rated
speed of the P-61 was initially 366 mph.
As Milo pointed out, this was exceeded by
the NF30 (late 1944) at 408mph. This in turn
was exceeded in Spring 1945 by the P-61C
at variously 415 to 425mph, a speed that
AFAIK NF Mosquitos didn't manage.

However I think it is disingenous to compare
a stripped P61 with a Mosquito of unknown
configuration. It's not a comparasion you'd
tolerate from Isegrim or Huckebein after all.

Signed: A tea drinking twit
(actually I drink coffee).

P.S. Milo - if you have the reference for
that Mosquito book could you PM me? When the
board swapped over I lost all my PMs and
can't remember the full title to be able
to track down a copy.

JG26Red
02-02-2004, 09:03 AM
I Think spychimp deep down inside loves all german planes, but has a hard time coming to the reality that he does, so he makes these posts to try to convince himself why he shouldnt like them... but in the end, he still loves them.,.. lol

SkyChimp
02-02-2004, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
SkyChimp:
With regard to the speed tests in the P-61
thread, was the Mosquito it flew against a
1944 model, similarly stripped? The rated
speed of the P-61 was initially 366 mph.
As Milo pointed out, this was exceeded by
the NF30 (late 1944) at 408mph. This in turn
was exceeded in Spring 1945 by the P-61C
at variously 415 to 425mph, a speed that
AFAIK NF Mosquitos didn't manage.

However I think it is disingenous to compare
a stripped P61 with a Mosquito of unknown
configuration. It's not a comparasion you'd
tolerate from Isegrim or Huckebein after all.

Signed: A tea drinking twit
(actually I drink coffee).

P.S. Milo - if you have the reference for
that Mosquito book could you PM me? When the
board swapped over I lost all my PMs and
can't remember the full title to be able
to track down a copy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stripped P-61? Where does what I posted say that? I reread what I posted and, I'm sorry, I'm still missing it.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

faustnik
02-02-2004, 05:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
If Heinkel published numbers the He-219 couldn't achieve just to get orders, what other German company did that? Focke Wulf?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! Now you're just being a monkey. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
www.7Jg77.com (http://www.7jg77.com)

SkyChimp
02-02-2004, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by faustnik:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
If Heinkel published numbers the He-219 couldn't achieve just to get orders, what other German company did that? Focke Wulf?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey! Now you're just being a monkey. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
http://www.7jg77.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

EPP-Gibbs
02-02-2004, 07:01 PM
Posted by Milo Morai:
"So what, after Streib's good night, the He217 claimed a further 128 a/c in the next 5 months, of which only 10 were Mosquitos. It should also be noted that the night got his 5, was one of the worst nights for losses by the RAF of WW2."

Streib? Possibly a case of the man and not the machine? Hitting a purple patch? After all, Two Finnish Aces scored over 70 kills each...mostly in Brewster Buffalos...does this make it an uber-fighter? Don't think so.

If I had all the money I'd spent on drink..I'd spend it on drink!

Aaron_GT
02-03-2004, 03:50 AM
Chimp - your post from the P-61 thread:
"To resolve the controvery, Lt. Gen. Carl A
Spaatz, Commander of United States Strategic
Air Forces in Europe, ordered a July 5, 1944,
fly- off a Hurn, England, pitting the P-61
diurectly against Vandenberg's choice, the
British Mosquito. Lt. Col. Winston W. Kratz,
director of night fighter training in the
United States, bet $500 thatr the Mosquito
could outperform the Widow. According to the
422d NFS historian, the competing P-61,
"tweaked" to get maximum performance, proved
faster at all altitudes [...]"

So maybe I was a little off in suggesting
it was stripped. However we don't know
to what extent the tweaking was, what Mark
of Mosquito it was, if that was tweaked,
or by what margin the speed advantage of the
P-61 was.

Maximum speed of the ia reported as P61B 322
mph at sea level rising to 366 at 20,000
ft. This is a production, non-tweaked version.
Initial climb rate was 2,200 ft/min.

At the time of the tests a comparable
Mosquito would have been the NF.XIII,
which could manage 350mph. I.e. faster
than the P61B. Climb was 1,850 ft/min.
So the P61B would have superior climb.

However coming on stream was the NF.30,
which managed slightly less at sea level
(338, still faster than a production
P61B), but rose to 400mph at 13,500 ft.
Initial climb rate was 2,250 ft/min.

So it is entirely possible that in a sustained
climb the production P61B would beat the XIII,
and maybe even the 30, it would be slower
than the Mosquito production versions in
level flight.

Now when the P61C came online in 1945, the
situation was reversed in terms of speed.

IIIJG53_Crinius
02-03-2004, 04:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
Here's a provocative thought: while the He-219 was overrated, the P-61 Black Widow was underrated.

I think the P-61 would have opened a can of whoop-a$$ on the He-219 in a one-on-one.

_Regards,_
_SkyChimp_
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Surprise, surprise. US planes rules and all others suck. Strangely Iam not too surprised to find this opinion from Chimp.

nicolas10
02-03-2004, 04:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IIIJG53_Crinius:
Surprise, surprise. US planes rules and all others suck. Strangely Iam not too surprised to find this opinion from Chimp.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't be serious???

Nic

The first official D12 whiner!

NorrisMcWhirter
02-03-2004, 10:06 AM
"i just wanna know so i can kill him god whats the big deal"

You ain't in the clique, mate. Someone posts what amounts to a troll post and you get told to chill.

Irony abounds.

Cheers,
Norris

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GoodKn1ght:
i just wanna know so i can kill him god whats the big deal

"Friends don't let friends fly arcade"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


================================================== ==========

: Chris Morris - Blue Jam : http://cabinessence.cream.org/

More irreverence:
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