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VestigialLlama4
01-29-2016, 10:16 AM
A full ps4/xbox1/pc game of the Jewish assassins called the "sicarii" (the Spanish word for assassin or killer, sicario, comes from there) against the Roman Empire in Jerusalem, that actually happened!!

Would never get made because that era is part of the Jesus times. Touching on it will earn criticism from Christian groups, Israeli groups and everyone.

Ubisoft wants to be no-drama all the time.

Bipolar Matt
01-29-2016, 04:39 PM
A full ps4/xbox1/pc game of the Jewish assassins called the "sicarii" (the Spanish word for assassin or killer, sicario, comes from there) against the Roman Empire in Jerusalem, that actually happened!!

It's a very good idea but it's too controversial. Too much religious pot-stirring to be had there.

cawatrooper9
01-29-2016, 07:40 PM
Should it happen? Well, that's pretty subjective, but I think it would be a great and bold era for the franchise.

Will it happen? I sincerely doubt it- not unless Ubisoft really steps out of their comfort zone.

VestigialLlama4
01-29-2016, 08:29 PM
Should it happen? Well, that's pretty subjective, but I think it would be a great and bold era for the franchise.

Historically that era is pretty fascinating. The era of Jewish Revolts, caught in the crossroads between the end of Hellenism and the rise of the Romans, the Jews becoming diaspora and the many religious cults that existed there (of which Christianity was merely one among many and very much a minority in its oirgins).

In terms of architecture and cities though...its Jerusalem, the Negev Desert and the Holy Land...aka same as AC1, only with even more architecture to make up and work around (such as recreating the original Jewish Temple digitally, which alone will bring down upon Ubisoft the wrath of the Orthodox Rabbinate).

This is assuming we do this historically. The fact is there is no historical evidence that the Big Celebrity of this Era, Jesus of Nazareth, actually existed. No Primary Sources, or Secondary Sources in a short interval. The only time anyone ever tells a story in this era and setting is when they make Jesus movies. It would be bold for ubisoft to deal with this era without Jesus but commercially it just doesn't make sense.

cawatrooper9
01-29-2016, 08:47 PM
Historically that era is pretty fascinating. The era of Jewish Revolts, caught in the crossroads between the end of Hellenism and the rise of the Romans, the Jews becoming diaspora and the many religious cults that existed there (of which Christianity was merely one among many and very much a minority in its oirgins).


Yeah, it's kind of a pressure-cooker of a period of time, but not necessarily focused on open war- the type of setting that AC thrives in the most, it seems.


In terms of architecture and cities though...its Jerusalem, the Negev Desert and the Holy Land...aka same as AC1, only with even more architecture to make up and work around (such as recreating the original Jewish Temple digitally, which alone will bring down upon Ubisoft the wrath of the Orthodox Rabbinate).

True, Jerusalem would be similar, but maybe they could make a better use of a "Kingdom" type setting, complete with smaller towns that would be relevant. Then, of course, Naval gameplay could always be implemented, if we were to try instead for a bit more of a Mediterranean setting, with Jerusalem (or any other Holy Land city) being only one area on the map.


This is assuming we do this historically. The fact is there is no historical evidence that the Big Celebrity of this Era, Jesus of Nazareth, actually existed. No Primary Sources, or Secondary Sources in a short interval. The only time anyone ever tells a story in this era and setting is when they make Jesus movies. It would be bold for ubisoft to deal with this era without Jesus but commercially it just doesn't make sense.
That is true (much as many would deny it), but there are other "celebrities" that would be easier to verify- Pontious Pilate for one, or maybe Herod. As far as Jesus goes- well, I'll try to be as respectful as possible toward our Christian fellow forum members, but perhaps his appearances could be a little more ambiguous. Don't outright show miracles, but also don't imply that he had a POE either (I could see that being a pretty big issue). Just make him a man in the era, with maybe a spin for characterization, and let players draw their own conclusions.

It's the same advice I'd give for any holy figure really, from Muhammad to Siddhartha Guatama... well, other than L. Ron Hubbard- that guy was clearly either a Templar or a sage off his rocker.

ze_topazio
01-29-2016, 08:58 PM
The Sicarii appeared some 40 years after Jesus supposed death, I think it's fine.

VestigialLlama4
01-29-2016, 09:59 PM
The Sicarii appeared some 40 years after Jesus supposed death, I think it's fine.

That doesn't matter...in the minds of marketing people, when people say Jerusalem First Century, everyone will say...Jesus! The fact is the Jewish Revolts and the Sicarii are not big enough draws for people to play it. Jesus is. Take The Da Vinci Code...that piece of trash book taught people the existence of real-world documents like the Dead Sea Scrolls and introduced words like Gnosticism to the general public. Gnosticism and the Dead Sea Scrolls actually have very little to do with Jesus but Jesus sells...


Just make him a man in the era, with maybe a spin for characterization, and let players draw their own conclusions.

The fact is religion is something Ubisoft is uninterested in dealing with, and is probably not talented to tackle. They barely get stuff like the French Revolution right. And you know, I don't think Ubisoft is very much interested in Jewish history either.

They have certainly gone out of their way to avoid showing Jews even in eras where they were significant. Like they did Rome for Brotherhood and conveniently forgot about the area known as the Jewish Quarter, which absolutely existed in this time period. Venice was also a city with a significant Jewish population, heck the word Ghetto comes from Venetian dialect. It refers tot he dirty part of town where the Renaissance Venetians forced Jewish people to live in. We don't see this in AC2 anywhere. It's only in Syndicate that you have Jewish characters (Marx and Disraeli) and I don't know, 2 Jewish characters in say the 9th game of a series about an organization that protects and empowers minorities is a pretty weird omission. As is the fact that reformers who helped Jewish people like Pope Alexander VI and Robespierre being shown as bad guys.

One of the weird subtexts in UNITY is the revelation that the Assassins worked with the French King Philip le Bel, that one of the Assassins was Guillaume de Nogaret who was Philip's chief Prime Minister. The real King Philippe and Guillaume Nogaret persecuted French Jews, kicked them out of homes and stole their property, and Ubisoft says these guys are Assassins and they allied with the King...

ERICATHERINE
01-29-2016, 10:35 PM
We don't see this in AC2 anywhere.

Well, we can read about it in the database of the game. ^-^

VestigialLlama4
01-30-2016, 04:45 AM
Well, we can read about it in the database of the game. ^-^

It's not mentioned in the databases either. The only real Jewish presence is there in AC1 where you have a lovely wooden Synagogue in Jerusalem's Middle District with a giant Star of David on the Roof.

I wonder if this is a Canadian thing. Maybe Canadians are a little too provincial. Like their new Prime Minister made a speech on Holocaust Remembrance Day and somehow didn't mention Jews:

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/197266/what-justin-trudeau-did-and-did-not-include-in-his-holocaust-remembrance-statement

I-Like-Pie45
01-30-2016, 05:34 AM
It's not mentioned in the databases either. The only real Jewish presence is there in AC1 where you have a lovely wooden Synagogue in Jerusalem's Middle District with a giant Star of David on the Roof.

I wonder if this is a Canadian thing. Maybe Canadians are a little too provincial. Like their new Prime Minister made a speech on Holocaust Remembrance Day and somehow didn't mention Jews:

http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/197266/what-justin-trudeau-did-and-did-not-include-in-his-holocaust-remembrance-statement

well it's really a bit too much optimism on your part to think that a politician knows a thing about history, let alone views history as anything beyond propaganda fuel.

ERICATHERINE
01-30-2016, 06:02 AM
It's not mentioned in the databases either.

Yes it is, my young padawan. If you want to read about it, follow these steps :

#1 In ac ii, select database in the menu (I know, it's obvious).
#2 select the part of the database about the cities and select Venice.
#3 select the entry "CANNAREGIO DISTRICT".

The entry talk nearly only of the jewish people and their Ghetto. ;-)

VestigialLlama4
01-30-2016, 06:42 AM
well it's really a bit too much optimism on your part to think that a politician knows a thing about history, let alone views history as anything beyond propaganda fuel.

What can I say, Pie, when you're right, you're right.


If you want to read about it, follow these steps :

And what exactly does this possibly achieve...why is it that you seize on the tiny morsel of references, one tiny mention in one entry, amidst a large number of database entries (which by and large don't mention this) among several cutscenes, and casual environmental dialogue...as if this alone refutes my argument. It does no such thing.

The point is the logic of the games, the setting and the character philosophy necessitates that Jews in the Renaissance, in the French Revolution, and even in the Crusades be more prominent than they are shown in the games. Assassins stand for reason, progress, they argue against intolerance, they protect the weak and the oppressed, the obvious leap when a bunch of Europeans in a medieval setting say these things, is to think of the most persecuted minority group in European history.

And I am not the first one to notice this. This article mentions this:

http://www.quartertothree.com/inhouse/news/375/
Where are your b--ls, Ubisoft? Talk more about the Prophet, peace be upon Him. Put a Jewish character in the game and let him be reviled. Show the Crusaders as something other than the dudes playing the role of the cops from GTA. Because you know everyone's thinking about it when they see your game. It's a potentially powerful subject, and it's on all our minds...

Not dealing with Jewish history when showing such medieval periods is a bit like making a story set in the New World and not dealing with slavery and native american genocide. Ubisoft honestly avoided the latter in games like AC3 and Black Flag, but they avoid doing the same to their European set games, probably because in their mind Jewish history only becomes relevant in World War II, and also because of their anti-American bias where they think such bad things as racism and colonialism is something that Americans do and obviously European High Culture is above such things.

From an open-world perspective its also dishonest. Like making Rome in Brotherhood but somehow not showing a widely documented Jewish Quarter anywhere in the map is a pretty shocking omission. Same with Venice. You can't say its anachronistic because this absolutely was part of the late 1400s-1500s era...and Pope Alexander VI was a big part of it.

Jessigirl2013
01-30-2016, 11:12 AM
What can I say, Pie, when you're right, you're right.



And what exactly does this possibly achieve...why is it that you seize on the tiny morsel of references, one tiny mention in one entry, amidst a large number of database entries (which by and large don't mention this) among several cutscenes, and casual environmental dialogue...as if this alone refutes my argument. It does no such thing.

The point is the logic of the games, the setting and the character philosophy necessitates that Jews in the Renaissance, in the French Revolution, and even in the Crusades be more prominent than they are shown in the games. Assassins stand for reason, progress, they argue against intolerance, they protect the weak and the oppressed, the obvious leap when a bunch of Europeans in a medieval setting say these things, is to think of the most persecuted minority group in European history.

And I am not the first one to notice this. This article mentions this:

http://www.quartertothree.com/inhouse/news/375/
Where are your b--ls, Ubisoft? Talk more about the Prophet, peace be upon Him. Put a Jewish character in the game and let him be reviled. Show the Crusaders as something other than the dudes playing the role of the cops from GTA. Because you know everyone's thinking about it when they see your game. It's a potentially powerful subject, and it's on all our minds...

Not dealing with Jewish history when showing such medieval periods is a bit like making a story set in the New World and not dealing with slavery and native american genocide. Ubisoft honestly avoided the latter in games like AC3 and Black Flag, but they avoid doing the same to their European set games, probably because in their mind Jewish history only becomes relevant in World War II, and also because of their anti-American bias where they think such bad things as racism and colonialism is something that Americans do and obviously European High Culture is above such things.

From an open-world perspective its also dishonest. Like making Rome in Brotherhood but somehow not showing a widely documented Jewish Quarter anywhere in the map is a pretty shocking omission. Same with Venice. You can't say its anachronistic because this absolutely was part of the late 1400s-1500s era...and Pope Alexander VI was a big part of it.

I even found Syndicate abit odd how it glossed over Victorian London in some parts, That time was brutal.
Maybe its just me still in shock from not major characters dying!!!!! Like what!
Edit- Or ANY characters dying :rolleyes: not counting Templars of course:rolleyes:

ERICATHERINE
01-30-2016, 04:25 PM
Not dealing with Jewish history when showing such medieval periods is a bit like making a story set in the New World and not dealing with slavery and native american genocide. Ubisoft honestly avoided the latter in games like AC3 and Black Flag, but they avoid doing the same to their European set games, probably because in their mind Jewish history only becomes relevant in World War II, and also because of their anti-American bias where they think such bad things as racism and colonialism is something that Americans do and obviously European High Culture is above such things.

You saying such things makes me realise you don't watch the canadian news often.

I'll tell you what, I'm a bilangual canadian and I'll resume you a story.

In a day where the canadian governement started feeling the need to save the people of the holy land of a war started with Ossama Ben Laden (or how ever his name might be wrote) and George W. Bush, the Canada started welcoming many people from many countries (so not only the people who had their country waging a war) for the sake of equality.

The people which would have to reside in the province of Quebec started only had to learn french, like everyone living there, for them to go live in the Quebec. The people migrating there said "yes they will" and promised they will to the governement of Canada, but some of some of them never did learn french even after many many years. When some of them learn that the governement would let them live in Quebec witout them having to learn the french if they were enough, the people of the holy land learned about the power of the greatest number.

The people of the holy land became the first group of person to be forcing the governements to let them do thing to other person living in Quebec (which for some of them lived there way before the people of holy land) that they didn't want to, like making them push every table in a place called the "cabane sucre" while every one was already eating, to prey. Then other people started thinking that them too could use the power of number.

And now read carfully, because we arrive at the part of the story for which I'm telling it.

One day, where a little girl named Catherine returned from elementary school, when arrived at 18 h, she watched the news. When she watched a particar new she didn't understand anything (just like every person in the Quebec) because of what the jewish people wanted to force the governement to do by using the power of the greatest number. They wanted every school to not make the young one learn about world war 2, because they didn't want their kids to learn their ancestors were persecuted by a bad man named Adolf Hitler and the persons under his commands. The people of the province of Quebec thinked it was time to learn how to use the power of the greatest number and they used it so that this part of history would not be forgoten yet. Unfortunately the jewish people was close enough (that time) to achieve their goals for many people like, for exemple, the people working at ubisoft to fear the wrath of the jewish people. So, the people directing ubisoft forbid their employes to show the jewish people being persecuted like, for instance in a franchise they made, named Assassin's creed.

The peole working at ubisoft didn't feared only the jewish people, they started, just like the people born in Quebec, to fear talking about any type of minority to the point that the only person that weren't feared were the white americain, man who don't believe in any religion and that don't have any problem may it be physic or mental.

That, my friend, is why when ubisoft do something in Canada they do it like that.

Also know that since I'm a canadian from Quebec I don't like it when you write bad things about my coutry, the people living in it ofr even the governement without knowing the story of what caused what you don't like in us. For instance if our governement didn't talk about the jewish people, the day you named, it's probably not because he don't like them or because he didn't knew about them, like pie said. It was more probably because of that day I named. Believe me about this, I was in primary school when the fear of the minority was born and I also was when the governement started to let people enter our coutry for them to be saved from the war, after the world trade center was destroyed. :-/

VestigialLlama4
01-30-2016, 04:53 PM
I'll tell you what, I'm a bilangual canadian...

I'll tell you what, some of my best friends are Canadian...:cool:


One day, where a little girl named Catherine returned from elementary school, when arrived at 18 h, she watched the news. When she watched a particar new she didn't understand anything (just like every person in the Quebec) because of what the jewish people wanted to force the governement to do by using the power of the greatest number.

This is such balderdash...There are barely 14 million Jews in the world, most of them are in USA and Israel. How in the heavens could they constitute the "power of the greatest number" to a nation like Canada (which has 35 million people).


Also know that since I'm a canadian from Quebec I don't like it when you write bad things about my coutry...

If a pompous internet commenter such as myself offends you then there's not a lot to say.

Anyway, I would prefer we keep this discussion to Ubisoft and AC...

ERICATHERINE
01-30-2016, 05:21 PM
This is such balderdash...There are barely 14 million Jews in the world, most of them are in USA and Israel. How in the heavens could they constitute the "power of the greatest number" to a nation like Canada (which has 35 million people).

By the power of the greatest number, I meant that the big majority of the people I named, only considering the ones in Canada since our governement don't care that much about the people from other country, compared to the people of there country. The reason why they care about the people who came to live here is actually because they now live here.


Anyway, I would prefer we keep this discussion to Ubisoft and AC...

If that's what you want, we'll talk about that. After all, my last comment was about the real life, because you were talking about the real life as well. ^-^

BATISTABUS
02-02-2016, 12:29 AM
I don't feel particularly strong about this time period, but I don't know where people get the idea that Ubisoft is too timid to put "touchy" subject matter into their games.

>The Crusades
>The Burning of Native American Villages
>Slavery
>Fist-fighting the Pope

That being said, characters are typically put in a grey area of the conflict to avoid Ubisoft completely taking a side.

>Connor is half Mohawk/British, Aveline is a half Black/French affluent woman
>Altair is an atheist rather than a Muslim, supposedly has a European mother(?)
>As a Florentine noble, Ezio would likely have been raised Catholic

If they did cover this time period, I very much doubt they would make the protagonist a Jew fighting for his/her faith.

cawatrooper9
02-02-2016, 03:29 PM
I don't feel particularly strong about this time period, but I don't know where people get the idea that Ubisoft is too timid to put "touchy" subject matter into their games.

>The Crusades
>The Burning of Native American Villages
>Slavery
>Fist-fighting the Pope

That being said, characters are typically put in a grey area of the conflict to avoid Ubisoft completely taking a side.

>Connor is half Mohawk/British, Aveline is a half Black/French affluent woman
>Altair is an atheist rather than a Muslim, supposedly has a European mother(?)
>As a Florentine noble, Ezio would likely have been raised Catholic

If they did cover this time period, I very much doubt they would make the protagonist a Jew fighting for his/her faith.

I think that this sentiment reflects the status of more recent games. The past few years have seen relatively simplistic black and white plots. Perhaps the most controversial things have been Shay killing Assassins (which is really only controversial within the context of the lore) and Unity's female Assassin scandal (which is more of a meta-controversy). Nothing in Unity, Rogue, Syndicate, or even Black Flag really puts Ubisoft and gamers out of our comfort zone.

BATISTABUS
02-02-2016, 07:53 PM
I think that this sentiment reflects the status of more recent games. The past few years have seen relatively simplistic black and white plots. Perhaps the most controversial things have been Shay killing Assassins (which is really only controversial within the context of the lore) and Unity's female Assassin scandal (which is more of a meta-controversy). Nothing in Unity, Rogue, Syndicate, or even Black Flag really puts Ubisoft and gamers out of our comfort zone.
I don't think it's really a matter of being black and white. If that were going based on that, the Ezio games are the least grey of the franchise, while Rogue is the most grey of the franchise and Black Flag is the most neutral. Unity was basically one big murder mystery combined with a tragic love story, but these games don't all have to tell the same story. I haven't played Syndicate.

As for uncomfortable/controversial real-life content, I wouldn't say there's nothing. You have the Freedom Cry DLC, harpooning (it's controversial to some people), the fact that Shay can kill civilians (even though this doesn't really make sense from a narrative standpoint), seeing people decapitated in France, etc. A lot of the most interesting/well known controversial periods have already been used, so if the series is to continue, I think it's more important to focus on the grey area to keep the franchise interesting. Unity was light on it, and maybe Syndicate was as well, but I don't think we can just say "Ubisoft these days" as if what we're talking about is a complete thing of the past.

cawatrooper9
02-02-2016, 08:04 PM
I don't think it's really a matter of being black and white. If that were going based on that, the Ezio games are the least grey of the franchise, while Rogue is the most grey of the franchise and Black Flag is the most neutral. Unity was basically one big murder mystery combined with a tragic love story, but these games don't all have to tell the same story. I haven't played Syndicate.

As for uncomfortable/controversial real-life content, I wouldn't say there's nothing. You have the Freedom Cry DLC, harpooning (it's controversial to some people), the fact that Shay can kill civilians (even though this doesn't really make sense from a narrative standpoint), seeing people decapitated in France, etc. A lot of the most interesting/well known controversial periods have already been used, so if the series is to continue, I think it's more important to focus on the grey area to keep the franchise interesting. Unity was light on it, and maybe Syndicate was as well, but I don't think we can just say "Ubisoft these days" as if what we're talking about is a complete thing of the past.

Well yeah, in regards to the in game lore, but I'm referring to the context of the history.

AC1 was probably the most gutsy when it came to history- and clearly is why we have the "multicultural team of varying faith" (or whatever it is) disclaimer to this day.
Ezio's era was pretty straightforward as far as Templars go, but it's portray of many other things (particularly Christianity) was pretty ballsy.
Then, of course, there was the depiction of Washington and the Continental Army that seemed to go over about 90% of gamers' heads... presumably because of "woo 'Murica!"

Nothing since then has really felt like it's walked the fine line.

I mean, Freedom Cry and Liberation looked at the issue of slavery, but their stance on it was (thankfully, I'll admit) not all that controversial. It basically boiled down to "slavery is bad" (which it certainly is). We even saw Templars and Assassins working together because slavery is bad!

BATISTABUS
02-02-2016, 08:24 PM
Just as a note, I meant to say that Rogue is among the most grey, not the most.


Nothing since then has really felt like it's walked the fine line.

I pretty much agree with all of what you've said, but I don't know. I'll just say that I feel like the decision to move away from historically controversial portrayals is more based on telling different types of stories, rather than Ubisoft not having the balls. There are countless historical moments that could be used to criticize religion, governments, corporations, etc. If it's already been done well a couple of years ago, what's the point of rehashing it with a different coat of paint? AC has already tackled some of the biggest and most popular. If people see this "trend" as an issue, perhaps this is more of a symptom of franchise fatigue than anything else.

I-Like-Pie45
02-02-2016, 10:01 PM
Rogue is about as grey as polar bears are black

VestigialLlama4
02-03-2016, 04:46 AM
I pretty much agree with all of what you've said, but I don't know. I'll just say that I feel like the decision to move away from historically controversial portrayals is more based on telling different types of stories, rather than Ubisoft not having the balls.

The thing is Ubisoft has always been timid about the potential implications of these games. Like Patrice Desilets said recently that they refused to let the use of the word "sodomy" in AC2, despite the fact that the game had Pope-Punching at the end. They refused to let him show Da Vinci's homosexuality directly in the game. This was in 2009.

Then Jeffrey Yohalem said in a podcast recently that Ubisoft told them to not directly state the Creed: "Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted" that's why its been absent in the last three games (Unity/Rogue/Syndicate), because they are afraid it's too nihilistic or the like.

Basically the development was always a clash between those who wanted to push harder for bolder stories and those who were a little timid and restrained. In the last two years, the timid dudes have won and that leads to safe products like ROGUE/UNITY/SYNDICATE

Mr.Black24
02-03-2016, 07:06 AM
The thing is Ubisoft has always been timid about the potential implications of these games. Like Patrice Desilets said recently that they refused to let the use of the word "sodomy" in AC2, despite the fact that the game had Pope-Punching at the end. They refused to let him show Da Vinci's homosexuality directly in the game. This was in 2009.

Then Jeffrey Yohalem said in a podcast recently that Ubisoft told them to not directly state the Creed: "Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted" that's why its been absent in the last three games (Unity/Rogue/Syndicate), because they are afraid it's too nihilistic or the like.

Basically the development was always a clash between those who wanted to push harder for bolder stories and those who were a little timid and restrained. In the last two years, the timid dudes have won and that leads to safe products like ROGUE/UNITY/SYNDICATE
When did Patrice say this? Was this in his playthrough of AC2?

VestigialLlama4
02-03-2016, 07:12 AM
When did Patrice say this? Was this in his playthrough of AC2?

Yeah here...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syV2-ZuaxC8&list=PLIhLvue17Sd5E75N5z8hK0-X7LXgGsJA5&index=4

Go to 51-52 minutes...

LoyalACFan
02-03-2016, 08:01 AM
I would love to see them go to the 1st century, but as others have said, there's no way in hell that it's going to happen. The fact that they're still rolling with the "multicultural team of various faiths and beliefs" disclaimer in the opening credits is proof enough of that. I think in Syndicate they even tacked gender identities and sexual orientations onto that disclaimer; for God's sake, they're tripping over themselves to avoid stepping on anyone's toes, and Syndicate is one of the tamest, most tepidly uncontroversial games on the AAA market this year. I mean, a vaguely-implied transgender character whose role spans about five lines of dialogue and a smattering of homoeroticism from Roth, and they've got to smack a frigging warning label in the opening credits? Please. Fat chance they'll ever tackle Jewish Assassins in Jesus Christ's backyard.

cawatrooper9
02-03-2016, 03:22 PM
They refused to let him show Da Vinci's homosexuality directly in the game. This was in 2009.

To be fair, Leonardo did look pretty upset when I didn't hug him in the QTE.

VestigialLlama4
02-03-2016, 03:33 PM
To be fair, Leonardo did look pretty upset when I didn't hug him in the QTE.

Well the subtext of Ezio and Leonardo's friendship is that Leonardo loves Ezio but knows it's an impossible crush. It's not uncommon for (some) gay men to form impossible crushes on straight guys who are their friends. It happened a lot with Andy Warhol for instance. It's also there in the popular movie Rebel Without A Cause. So that lends a certian poignancy to their friendship and you can see it in the cutscenes, like Leonardo telling Ezio that Caterina Sforza is way off his level. And then in Brotherhood, at the last cutscene, Leo tells Ezio that he doesn't like women while trying to put an arm over him while Ezio says, "Wait, I don't get it." (either being confused or lying politely because he doesn't want to hurt him).

BATISTABUS
02-04-2016, 01:10 AM
Then Jeffrey Yohalem said in a podcast recently that Ubisoft told them to not directly state the Creed: "Nothing is True. Everything is Permitted" that's why its been absent in the last three games (Unity/Rogue/Syndicate), because they are afraid it's too nihilistic or the like.
Which podcast? Can I get a link? I'd say that's a pretty significant piece of evidence in this argument's favor. That'd certainly make me reconsider.

Ureh
02-04-2016, 01:23 AM
Which podcast? Can I get a link? I'd say that's a pretty significant piece of evidence in this argument's favor. That'd certainly make me reconsider.

Might be loomer's interview. Haven't listened to it yet, still waiting on my game copy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBIkGNJMkaU

BATISTABUS
02-04-2016, 03:02 AM
Might be loomer's interview. Haven't listened to it yet, still waiting on my game copy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBIkGNJMkaU
I haven't played it either. :(

Sesheenku
02-04-2016, 05:05 AM
Historically that era is pretty fascinating. The era of Jewish Revolts, caught in the crossroads between the end of Hellenism and the rise of the Romans, the Jews becoming diaspora and the many religious cults that existed there (of which Christianity was merely one among many and very much a minority in its oirgins).

In terms of architecture and cities though...its Jerusalem, the Negev Desert and the Holy Land...aka same as AC1, only with even more architecture to make up and work around (such as recreating the original Jewish Temple digitally, which alone will bring down upon Ubisoft the wrath of the Orthodox Rabbinate).

This is assuming we do this historically. The fact is there is no historical evidence that the Big Celebrity of this Era, Jesus of Nazareth, actually existed. No Primary Sources, or Secondary Sources in a short interval. The only time anyone ever tells a story in this era and setting is when they make Jesus movies. It would be bold for ubisoft to deal with this era without Jesus but commercially it just doesn't make sense.

They couldn't do it without Jesus, they said he abused the apple to perform his miracles.

LoyalACFan
02-04-2016, 12:27 PM
They couldn't do it without Jesus, they said he abused the apple to perform his miracles.

That was back when Ubi had the testicular fortitude to deal with challenging religious topics. Their first protagonist was openly atheist, and their second one stabbed the Pope. They've been considerably less anti-establishment in recent years, and it's not like they've been afraid to retcon the Abstergo/POE stuff before. Remember in AC1 when they said like 98% of Africa had been wiped out by disease in 2012? Yeah, neither does Ubisoft.

Farlander1991
02-04-2016, 12:58 PM
Remember in AC1 when they said like 98% of Africa had been wiped out by disease in 2012?

To be fair, that's kinda a justifiable retcon given the change from 'only 3 games' (original idea) to 'a franchise that will span for years' (which is something that pretty much became clear to them as early as AC2), even if explanation of those e-mails being a result of Erudito hacking is kinda 'eh'. But it allows to play with current events the same way they played with history before.

LoyalACFan
02-04-2016, 01:12 PM
To be fair, that's kinda a justifiable retcon given the change from 'only 3 games' (original idea) to 'a franchise that will span for years' (which is something that pretty much became clear to them as early as AC2), even if explanation of those e-mails being a result of Erudito hacking is kinda 'eh'. But it allows to play with current events the same way they played with history before.

That's fair; the Africa virus was a bad example since it was kind of dumb to begin with, and it would have destroyed the whole metagame thing they've been going for since AC3. Still, there are plenty of other things in the same vein that have since been erased or handwaved out of the canon. Virtually everything 16 ever said pre-Revelations, for starters. "The sun, your son" in particular still bugs me.

VestigialLlama4
02-04-2016, 01:29 PM
That was back when Ubi had the testicular fortitude to deal with challenging religious topics. Their first protagonist was openly atheist, and their second one stabbed the Pope.

The few times Ubisoft has tackled religion it's always been half-hearted. The game uses First Civ to say that yes, the Gods did exist in some shape and form, there are these Pieces of Eden...I mean in the ACR Templar Emails they talk about how the Bible got some things right after all. The most openly anti-religious statements in AC always, without exception, come from Templars, aka bad guys. And as for Altair being an atheist, well its more acceptable for a Western viewer to see an Arab claim atheism against Islam than for a Western man to reject Christianity. That's why Ezio in AC2 doesn't openly say anything against Christianity. In fact when he confronts Rodrigo, Rodrigo is the one saying Christianity is bunk and Ezio is saying "You are the Pope! And yet you dismiss the central text of your Faith?" basically calling his hypocrisy.

So there has never been any fortitude, testicular or otherwise, from Ubisoft, not on this front. Their fortitude is more about selling games with interesting stories rather than criticizing religion. To take a game which tries to make some sort of religious criticism, you have to go to Kevin Levine's Bioshock Infinite, he dealt with issues pertaining to baptism and religion from a secular perspective and he almost faced a writer revolt or quitting and he had to modify it somehow, and the finale still has that criticism of religion but it's more subdued certainly.

cawatrooper9
02-04-2016, 03:32 PM
Remember in AC1 when they said like 98% of Africa had been wiped out by disease in 2012? Yeah, neither does Ubisoft.

I really don't remember that actually, but it's likely I missed it since I didn't really do any of the snooping stuff in the first game. Was that really a thing? That's pretty messed up.

Even regardless of the weird of intent in including that in the story(seems like some sort of dark racial supremacist fantasy), there's no way that a continent like Africa could be decimated that bad by a disease and its ripples wouldn't cause huge cataclysm in the MD sections of the games. Humanity has gotten pretty good at isolating and containing diseases, but we're certainly not that good.