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qmagnet
01-24-2016, 06:35 PM
Hello people.
I am new here but I wanted to discuss some logic issues with the Assassin's Creed saga. I just started playing Unity, after finishing Rogue. Yes, I'm a bit behind, but the price of new games is too much for me. Regardless, this post will contain a minor insignificant spoiler - it happens withing a 15 minutes of the game.

So if you're a long time AC fan, such as myself, you understand the Animus, and how it uses ancestor DNA to replicate genetic memories. This is means for someone's experience to be played through, that ancestor would have to pass that memory along to his/her offspring.

In the opening prologue of Unity, we play a Templar, who begins chasing an Assassin to recover a stolen book. MINOR SPOILER Well, the Templar ends up catching the Assassin and gets the book back. Shortly after, the Assassin kills the Templar (kills you).

How is this possible? If the Animus/Helix uses ancestor memories, how could you see a memory of death? Either the Templar has no kid, which means there would be no memory, or the kid was already born and the kid would not have that memory because the kid's DNA was established at conception.

Now I haven't played much of the game yet, but I assume this Templar isn't mentioned again. One possible theory I came up with is that this Templar didn't die, but got knocked unconscious. But I'm not sure what kind of the crappy Assassin this would have to be to not kill a Templar with such an easy opportunity. Another theory is that this is just a past experience outside the Animus, but the following scene with Bishop clearly shows you were in the Animus.


I wrote a blog about it with a bit more detail here:
http://negativepositivegamer.blogspot.ca/2016/01/assassins-creed-unity-genetic-memory.html


What do you think? Am I missing something here? Will it make sense later on?
What are your thoughts and theories?

Farlander1991
01-24-2016, 07:02 PM
Two things to consider that, I don't think were stated directly but were heavily hinted to in some previous games:
1. If you get DNA from the dead body then you'll get access to all the genetic memories of the person up until his death.
2. What we see in the beginning is an Abstergo product released to the public, and as we know from Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag (as they want to heavily edit Edward Kenway's adventures for public release) and Assassin's Creed: Liberation (we're there from perspective of user, experience ourselves that there's deleted information there and a mysterious hacking group helps us unlock them), Abstergo tampers and edits the memories to what fits their purpose. So the prologue sequence should be taken with a grain of salt.

I don't remember exactly, but I think in Unity Bishop mentions something how Abstergo wants to use history for their own purpose or something like that? Maybe misremembering from a different game.

qmagnet
01-24-2016, 07:40 PM
1. From what remember, this was something they discovered with Desmond. Regardless, it would be impossible to recover that body from 1300.
2. That's a good point. Perhaps Abstergo manufactured the death. Or maybe the entire sequence is falsified. I guess the burning of Jacques de Molay can't actually happen either unless that DNA was recovered by a bystander or their offspring.

So now you've made me wonder if that event was completely fabricated by the Templars. Kind of loses the coolness of the Animus though , if true.

Farlander1991
01-24-2016, 08:02 PM
Well, it is stated that the rest of Unity that we see is raw unfiltered DNA data, so the uniqueness of the Animus/Helix is still there. But ever since Abstergo started releasing public products, starting with Liberation, it's been a point that they don't want to show the truth and just want to see what they want us to see.

ERICATHERINE
01-25-2016, 12:31 AM
@ Farlander1991. I know I'm off topic, but I see you're an "AC Expert" on this forum. I became a "senior member" when wrote my 500 comment, but I think I've seen other members that wrote more comment than you and are still "senior member", so can you tell me how you got to be described like that by the forum? ^-^

Sesheenku
01-25-2016, 04:41 AM
I'd care if the story wasn't average as hell like every other triple a game in the last 5 years.


@ Farlander1991. I know I'm off topic, but I see you're an "AC Expert" on this forum. I became a "senior member" when wrote my 500 comment, but I think I've seen other members that wrote more comment than you and are still "senior member", so can you tell me how you got to be described like that by the forum? ^-^
Kiss a mod on the cheekand offer your soul.

Civona
01-25-2016, 06:05 AM
as others have said, the idea is that they're using the actual person's remains as their sample rather than their descendent's DNA. That was the entire point of Unity: the Templars were looking for the Sage's body so they could use it to relive memories.

Viewing memories through non-living subjects was supposed to be the big new technology advance that happened in the world during Unity, though they didn't explain it all too well. I really loved that moment, because I also knew the rule about not seeing people die, and was excited that they'd found a way to break it. Shame that Unity didn't really follow through on anything related to that in the main game, Arno got the same hero's ending as everyone else.

Farlander1991
01-25-2016, 08:51 AM
@ Farlander1991. I know I'm off topic, but I see you're an "AC Expert" on this forum. I became a "senior member" when wrote my 500 comment, but I think I've seen other members that wrote more comment than you and are still "senior member", so can you tell me how you got to be described like that by the forum? ^-^

Well, one day I arrive on the forums and see that I am an AC expert now :D A bunch of these titles were given out to some forum members close to release of Black Flag. I think for me it was because of my blog posts related to AC and threads like this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/898522-Assassin-s-Creed-series-stealth-viability-sheet) and this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1259896-Assassin-s-Creed-world-usage-in-missions-analysis).

ERICATHERINE
01-25-2016, 08:15 PM
Well, one day I arrive on the forums and see that I am an AC expert now :D A bunch of these titles were given out to some forum members close to release of Black Flag. I think for me it was because of my blog posts related to AC and threads like this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/898522-Assassin-s-Creed-series-stealth-viability-sheet) and this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1259896-Assassin-s-Creed-world-usage-in-missions-analysis).

Ah, ok. ^-^

JWRK
01-27-2016, 06:22 PM
1. From what remember, this was something they discovered with Desmond. Regardless, it would be impossible to recover that body from 1300.


You can recover bodies much older than that.
I saw a documentary where they recovered dinosaur DNA from mosquitoes in amber and then cloned them.

ERICATHERINE
01-27-2016, 08:43 PM
You can recover bodies much older than that.
I saw a documentary where they recovered dinosaur DNA from mosquitoes in amber and then cloned them.

Are you sure you're not talking about the movie "Jurrassic park"? Unless you meant "...amber to clone them". There is a big difference in wanting to do something and actualy doing it, you know. :rolleyes:

VoldR
01-28-2016, 04:21 AM
as others have said, the idea is that they're using the actual person's remains as their sample rather than their descendent's DNA. That was the entire point of Unity: the Templars were looking for the Sage's body so they could use it to relive memories.
I believe they need the body to create a new precursor body for Juno or something...


Viewing memories through non-living subjects was supposed to be the big new technology advance that happened in the world during Unity, though they didn't explain it all too well.
That idea started with AC4. Where we used Helix? to access Desmond's dna by a non related host.

According to the secret tapes of the late vedic, this idea was conceived by subject 0. A female scientist, using the animus as a template to relive other people's ancestry.

Same time as when Vedic got subject 1 of Aveline's descendant.


Arno got the same hero's ending as everyone else.

what is a hero ending?

He lost he's adopted sister/girlfriend.
Went rogue and want out of paris in the DLC "Dead Kings"

Got his friend Napoleon Imprisoned and then later help him in his romantic life few yrs later and prevented an assassination attempt.

Then just head to the ruins to spread the remains of Garmain across Paris underground with his pal Napoleon in the early 19th century

VoldR
01-28-2016, 05:16 AM
About the main topic,

when hearing a narrator talking about something in the program. It starts to feel like propaganda already...

The illogical part is no where in the AC world is asking the same question here, should have an email of a forum notice from the Abstergo or a public forum to the user replying to their question...

"How come we're seeing a memory of a person being killed... Burned even..." Oo

Btw, i like that feel of a templar. Unable to jump into a hay, rely on ladders to get up. I think got a bit of wall climbing, No eagle vision, swinging a huge sword... No hidden blades.

Feels different... very unlike Shay

qmagnet
01-31-2016, 07:05 PM
You can recover bodies much older than that.
I saw a documentary where they recovered dinosaur DNA from mosquitoes in amber and then cloned them.

:D I saw that documentary too. Dr. Alan Grant was particularly interesting.

Ureh
01-31-2016, 08:06 PM
Ezio had similar "desync" moments as well. In ACB when he was shot it appeared like that was the end. A bunch of moments where he should've died but somehow only got away with a scratch. Who knows what is the backstory between the playable Templar and Thomas, maybe there was a reason for him to inflict only a shallow wound or some kind of fast poison on the blade. Ezio had every chance to kill Rodrigo but chose not to, so it's not impossible for Thomas to have his own reasons. Or... Maybe Thomas did intend to kill the Templar but he had to run away and didn't have enough time to ensure if the wound was fatal. Or maybe the Templar really was dead and his memories were somehow recovered for story purposes. It could be anything!?!

As for the the burning of Jaques we get a few close-up shots of Philip's eyes, it could be that we're experiencing the memories through his line. Maybe the Sages can somehow save their memories in the grey or the cloud or whatever and then the next Sage can download the back-up save files?!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/I1XSjuigg1o/maxresdefault.jpg

Megas_Doux
01-31-2016, 09:55 PM
llogical or not, Unity's prologue is my favorite mission, part, moment or whatever you call in the franchise.

VoldR
01-31-2016, 11:27 PM
Who knows what is the backstory between the playable Templar and Thomas, maybe there was a reason for him to inflict only a shallow wound or some kind of fast poison on the blade. Ezio had every chance to kill Rodrigo but chose not to, so it's not impossible for Thomas to have his own reasons. Or... Maybe Thomas did intend to kill the Templar but he had to run away and didn't have enough time to ensure if the wound was fatal. Or maybe the Templar really was dead and his memories were somehow recovered for story purposes. It could be anything!?!

As for the the burning of Jaques we get a few close-up shots of Philip's eyes, it could be that we're experiencing the memories through his line. Maybe the Sages can somehow save their memories in the grey or the cloud or whatever and then the next Sage can download the back-up save files?!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/I1XSjuigg1o/maxresdefault.jpg

???

Didn't the guy who got stab was being burn as well because he lived?

A sage there? Who?
There's no indication of one that i can recall. Even if there was, Abstergo have no access to one in order to do so. Even though one is working under their nose.

ERICATHERINE
02-01-2016, 12:53 AM
A sage there? Who?
There's no indication of one that i can recall. Even if there was, Abstergo have no access to one in order to do so. Even though one is working under their nose.

It's Jacques de Molay. ^-^

VoldR
02-01-2016, 01:46 PM
It's Jacques de Molay. ^-^
Is this about what Gairman said about being related to him?

To me that's just wishful thinking. Just because he found the book. Thinking in order to have such lure to it is the reason they're related.

I may be wrong, but is there any picture of his eyes? To prove without a doubt.

ERICATHERINE
02-01-2016, 06:24 PM
Is this about what Gairman said about being related to him?

To me that's just wishful thinking. Just because he found the book. Thinking in order to have such lure to it is the reason they're related.

Exactly, Germain said he was related to him because the two of them were sage.


I may be wrong, but is there any picture of his eyes? To prove without a doubt.

I don't know if there is a picture showing his eyes, but if you want proof I'm pretty sure ubisoft already comfirmed it. I just don't remember where in which game I learned it. I'll try to find something for you. ^-^

ERICATHERINE
02-01-2016, 06:29 PM
Is this about what Gairman said about being related to him?

To me that's just wishful thinking. Just because he found the book. Thinking in order to have such lure to it is the reason they're related.

I may be wrong, but is there any picture of his eyes? To prove without a doubt.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay

This site confirm he is a sage. ^-^

Sorrosyss
02-01-2016, 08:49 PM
In the Helix menu its called 'The Tragedy of Jacques De Molay'. Seems pretty clear to me its a propaganda piece, with the usual creative editing by Abstergo. I wouldn't worry on it too much. ;)

qmagnet
02-03-2016, 01:15 AM
In the Helix menu its called 'The Tragedy of Jacques De Molay'. Seems pretty clear to me its a propaganda piece, with the usual creative editing by Abstergo. I wouldn't worry on it too much. ;)

Okay. But that's not the illogical part. People are getting caught up with Jacque de Moaly.

I'm talking about the Templar character you play. That Templar is the memory you are playing and you get stabbed - probably killed. One theory here was that Abstergo created a false death with the Helix program. IDK, doesn't seem to be logical the more I think about it since the way all the previous Animus memories have played out. My problem with the recovery of a dead body is, how would Abstergo even know where to find this mystery Templar's body? Chances are his body burned up in the city on fire anyway.


Ezio had similar "desync" moments as well. In ACB when he was shot it appeared like that was the end. A bunch of moments where he should've died but somehow only got away with a scratch. Who knows what is the backstory between the playable Templar and Thomas, maybe there was a reason for him to inflict only a shallow wound or some kind of fast poison on the blade. Ezio had every chance to kill Rodrigo but chose not to, so it's not impossible for Thomas to have his own reasons. Or... Maybe Thomas did intend to kill the Templar but he had to run away and didn't have enough time to ensure if the wound was fatal. Or maybe the Templar really was dead and his memories were somehow recovered for story purposes. It could be anything!?!

As for the the burning of Jaques we get a few close-up shots of Philip's eyes, it could be that we're experiencing the memories through his line. Maybe the Sages can somehow save their memories in the grey or the cloud or whatever and then the next Sage can download the back-up save files?!

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/I1XSjuigg1o/maxresdefault.jpg

But Ezio didn't actually hidden blade him, like the playable Templar clearly was in the prologue. I'm okay with Abstergo using the Templar's remains for the Animus, but I don't believe they could actually locate that body. Like that city was in flames. It likely burned up.

As for the burning of Jacques, IDK. I'm thinking that's not Jacques memory. We aren't playing that scene so it's hard to tell who's perspective the Animus is on. Like you said, there is a closeup of the King.

cawatrooper9
02-03-2016, 08:37 PM
Okay. But that's not the illogical part. People are getting caught up with Jacque de Moaly.

I'm talking about the Templar character you play. That Templar is the memory you are playing and you get stabbed - probably killed. One theory here was that Abstergo created a false death with the Helix program. IDK, doesn't seem to be logical the more I think about it since the way all the previous Animus memories have played out. My problem with the recovery of a dead body is, how would Abstergo even know where to find this mystery Templar's body? Chances are his body burned up in the city on fire anyway.



I mean, there might be numerous explanations for this. Perhaps the process was sort of reverse engineered- they just stumbled upon some preserved DNA from this guy, and realized it would be useful. Maybe they used some First Civ technology, like the discs in ACR. Maybe the Sword of Eden likely had something to do with it.

Or maybe we're just waaaaay overthinking things... :rolleyes:

qmagnet
02-04-2016, 12:38 AM
I mean, there might be numerous explanations for this. Perhaps the process was sort of reverse engineered- they just stumbled upon some preserved DNA from this guy, and realized it would be useful. Maybe they used some First Civ technology, like the discs in ACR. Maybe the Sword of Eden likely had something to do with it.

Or maybe we're just waaaaay overthinking things... :rolleyes:
I hate to think it's a simple as Ubi making a stupid game design choice outside the established Animus logic just to make the player feel emotion. I love speculating and creating fan theories. But honestly I just think it was a stupid decision.

VoldR
02-04-2016, 01:20 AM
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay

This site confirm he is a sage. ^-^

Thanks but I don't think that proves he's a sage. More that it proves he's not. As they state he don't have two eye colour and assume he's a sage anyway.

So He may be related by blood but not necessarily make him a sage.

Not every one born will inherite the awareness of being a sage.

I think that only falls to those with heterochromia...

So, what's his name probably lived and died without seeing golden visions

Ureh
02-04-2016, 01:27 AM
Thanks but I don't think that proves he's a sage. More that it proves he's not. As they state he don't have two eye colour and assume he's a sage anyway.

So He may be related by blood but not necessarily make him a sage.

Not every one born will inherite the awareness of being a sage.

I think that only falls to those with heterochromia...

So, what's his name probably lived and died without seeing golden visions

One of the sources in that article is Darby's twitter post. He says that the lack of heterochromia was an oversight and that Jacques is indeed a sage. I guess they could always say that Darby's statement is false for future games but for now it's 100% real stuff.

ERICATHERINE
02-04-2016, 02:59 AM
One of the sources in that article is Darby's twitter post. He says that the lack of heterochromia was an oversight and that Jacques is indeed a sage. I guess they could always say that Darby's statement is false for future games but for now it's 100% real stuff.

This. ^-^

Farlander1991
02-04-2016, 09:15 AM
Maybe it wasn't an oversight (unless Darby's statement is not his opinion but something he asked the writers/artists/etc.)

Once again, the prologue is an Abstergo product. I always thought that Jacques didn't have the Sage eyes because Abstergo didn't want people to get any possible ideas about Sages and the like.

Jessigirl2013
02-05-2016, 08:02 PM
Well, one day I arrive on the forums and see that I am an AC expert now :D A bunch of these titles were given out to some forum members close to release of Black Flag. I think for me it was because of my blog posts related to AC and threads like this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/898522-Assassin-s-Creed-series-stealth-viability-sheet) and this (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1259896-Assassin-s-Creed-world-usage-in-missions-analysis).

Cool :cool:

Jessigirl2013
02-05-2016, 08:04 PM
http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jacques_de_Molay

This site confirm he is a sage. ^-^

The database in Syndicate also confirms he is a sage.:rolleyes: