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Zigismund
03-14-2004, 11:01 PM
Hello,

This is not a whine. Simple observation. Do you people have the feeling that Ju-87 is way too tough. AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section. It was too easy to crack it with short burst from eight .303 MGs. When I fly offline against it, I have problems to destroy Ju-87s even when I fly P-47D. And yes, I am a good shooter.

All the best.

Zigismund
03-14-2004, 11:01 PM
Hello,

This is not a whine. Simple observation. Do you people have the feeling that Ju-87 is way too tough. AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section. It was too easy to crack it with short burst from eight .303 MGs. When I fly offline against it, I have problems to destroy Ju-87s even when I fly P-47D. And yes, I am a good shooter.

All the best.

chris455
03-14-2004, 11:11 PM
Zigismund,
It only lastsa few seconds against US .50 caliber fire in the damage model test mission I posted a link to on this forum earlier today.
Literally about 6 seconds and BOOM.
Not conclusive, I know, but the Fw190A8 swallowed a ton of fire and asked for seconds.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Zigismund
03-14-2004, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Zigismund,
It only lastsa few seconds against US .50 caliber fire in the damage model test mission I posted a link to on this forum earlier today.
Literally about 6 seconds and BOOM.
Not conclusive, I know, but the Fw190A8 swallowed a ton of fire and asked for seconds.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
S!

I am not sure what you mean. See, if Stuka was an easy prey for Hurri, Thunderbolt should chrush it in 0.5s burst. Just my opinion.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Urist
03-15-2004, 12:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zigismund:
Hello,

This is not a whine. Simple observation. Do you people have the feeling that Ju-87 is way too tough. AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section. It was too easy to crack it with short burst from eight .303 MGs. When I fly offline against it, I have problems to destroy Ju-87s even when I fly P-47D. And yes, I am a good shooter.

All the best.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I usually fly underneath them where they can't shoot back at me, pull up and spray the bottom front of the aircraft with bullets. A split second burst gets it smoking and it usually won't last very long afterwards.

Coming in from directly behind it is a pretty good way to get killed, they are a pretty tough airplane in the game so ripping it apart isn't very easy. Especially with Browning .303's.

Fillmore
03-15-2004, 01:21 AM
"AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section."

AFAIK we do not have the BoB Stuka.

From Alex Vanags-Baginskis book:

"Subsequently a number of field modifications were introduced in the light of operational experience and applied to both the Ju87B-1 and B-2...Ju87B-1/U3 (B-2/U3) (1941/1941) Fitted with additional armour protection for the crew and engine."

For Ju87D-3 he says:

"Basic "Dora" airframe with added armour protection for the crew, engine and radiators."

I believe BoB was the operational experience he is referring to that taught the Germans that they needed to up the armour on the Stukas (especially if they were going to invade Russia lol).

necrobaron
03-15-2004, 01:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section."

AFAIK we do not have the BoB Stuka.

From Alex Vanags-Baginskis book:

"Subsequently a number of field modifications were introduced in the light of operational experience and applied to both the Ju87B-1 and B-2...Ju87B-1/U3 (B-2/U3) (1941/1941) Fitted with additional armour protection for the crew and engine."

For Ju87D-3 he says:

"Basic "Dora" airframe with added armour protection for the crew, engine and radiators."

I believe BoB was the operational experience he is referring to that taught the Germans that they needed to up the armour on the Stukas (especially if they were going to invade Russia lol).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,the B-1 was the primary Stuka varient that saw service in the BoB. After the mauling over Britain,the new B-2 saw much improvement in armour protection. The B-1 is the varient that (perhaps unfairly and prematurely) destroyed the 87's previously fearsome reputation and instead gave the Stuka the reputation of being gun fodder.

"Not all who wander are lost."

Zigismund
03-15-2004, 02:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section."

AFAIK we do not have the BoB Stuka.

From Alex Vanags-Baginskis book:

"Subsequently a number of field modifications were introduced in the light of operational experience and applied to both the Ju87B-1 and B-2...Ju87B-1/U3 (B-2/U3) (1941/1941) Fitted with additional armour protection for the crew and engine."

For Ju87D-3 he says:

"Basic "Dora" airframe with added armour protection for the crew, engine and radiators."

I believe BoB was the operational experience he is referring to that taught the Germans that they needed to up the armour on the Stukas (especially if they were going to invade Russia lol).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,the B-1 was the primary Stuka varient that saw service in the BoB. After the mauling over Britain,the new B-2 saw much improvement in armour protection. The B-1 is the varient that (perhaps unfairly and prematurely) destroyed the 87's previously fearsome reputation and instead gave the Stuka the reputation of being gun fodder.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I didn't know that B-2 was improved over B-1 in armour protection. However, I was convinced that B-2 flew in BoB. Rear gunner can't kill me while I'm flying in P-47D.

http://www.bearplugs.com/Currentdesigns/alfred/Organization_Military/insured_by_s&w_10001.jpg

AWL_Spinner
03-15-2004, 06:33 AM
Even back in the Battle of France, Hurricane pilots relished chancing upon Stukas. Easy kills.

In FB, I'd far rather chance upon a 109 in my Hurricane. Stukas tend to prove more dangerous. And I never seem to have as much trouble from the rear gunner in a Bf110, either.

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

DamienW
03-15-2004, 06:46 AM
I did some semi-fictional malta missions with somefriends lately, with enemy Ju-87s escorted by G50s, and we haveno trouble slaughtering the stukas with only the 4 .303s when coming from below (no gunner fire this way, and hits are much more effective). They often either smoke or have a fire erupt, so we switch to another, and keep the cannon rounds for the fiats.

Kwiatos
03-15-2004, 06:49 AM
In 1.22 Stuka for sure was to tough. But in AEP Stukas burn from a few series from kms. I think its ok now.

VW-IceFire
03-15-2004, 07:06 AM
With the internal damage being more important now...a single one second burst from the Mustangs guns was enough to disable all flight controls of a Stuka I was fighting. He crashed into a hillside...

They are physically tough so don't expect to fall all apart but they are internally vulnerable as are most planes.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

AWL_Spinner
03-15-2004, 07:25 AM
Glad to hear there seem to be some differences in AEP, another four days before I get my hands on that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers, Spinner

http://www.alliedwingedlegion.com/members/signatures/spinner_sig.jpg

The_Red_Spoon
03-15-2004, 07:34 AM
The Stuka is one my favourite aircraft (dive bombing unsuspecting people from 3000m is fun), but it is like flying a fish in a barrel.

Even if they are too tough (and the rear gunner is a pain), shooting them down shouldn't be a problem because they cannot manouver without losing all of their hard-earned speed and altitude. If I ever get spotted on one of my climb-for-an-eternity and dive bomb someone attempts, there little point in continuing.

TooCooL34
03-15-2004, 07:37 AM
I got 4 Stukas with one sortie in Mig-3 1940(defalt armament) in last DCG mission.

It was fragile, especially their wings.

-----------------

=815=TooCooL34 in =815=Squadron

-= 8 1 5 =- FB Dedi Server is coming soon. (with AEP Dedicated Server)
100Mb IDC line, P4 2.8G server.
Full real but limited icon, minimap path and spdbar.
You can expect something, since I run the server myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kwiatos
03-15-2004, 08:15 AM
Its good that Stukas in AEP is not to tough now but its no good that major planes are to tough http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

clint-ruin
03-15-2004, 09:13 AM
Don't find the Ju-87 too tough at all. Against widely distributed hits - very tough - especially against rifle cal guns. But then the same could be said of any plane in FB. The wide dispersion we see on say, the Hurricanes .303s or the P-51s .50 cals with extended firing makes whacking the same structural point difficult, at times.

The 87s structure is probably pretty inherantly tough given the bombloads [1800kg!] and the dive bomb/pullup stress it has to withstand.

You can try for structural kills if you like, or you can throw a couple of cannon/.50 cal shots in the engine and watch it splutter and burn. Against any opponent [AI or human] it doesn't take a lot of damage to get a mission kill where the plane has to drop ordinance to stay airbourne ...

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Slush69
03-15-2004, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The_Red_Spoon:
The Stuka is one my favourite aircraft (dive bombing unsuspecting people from 3000m is fun), but it is like flying a fish in a barrel.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's as long as I came in this thread. Then, for the next minutes, I just sat there thinking: "flying a fish in a barrel? Hm... flying a fish in a barrel? Flying? A fish? In a barrel?". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

cheers/slush

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necrobaron
03-15-2004, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zigismund:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section."

AFAIK we do not have the BoB Stuka.

From Alex Vanags-Baginskis book:

"Subsequently a number of field modifications were introduced in the light of operational experience and applied to both the Ju87B-1 and B-2...Ju87B-1/U3 (B-2/U3) (1941/1941) Fitted with additional armour protection for the crew and engine."

For Ju87D-3 he says:

"Basic "Dora" airframe with added armour protection for the crew, engine and radiators."

I believe BoB was the operational experience he is referring to that taught the Germans that they needed to up the armour on the Stukas (especially if they were going to invade Russia lol).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,the B-1 was the primary Stuka varient that saw service in the BoB. After the mauling over Britain,the new B-2 saw much improvement in armour protection. The B-1 is the varient that (perhaps unfairly and prematurely) destroyed the 87's previously fearsome reputation and instead gave the Stuka the reputation of being gun fodder.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I didn't know that B-2 was improved over B-1 in armour protection. However, I was convinced that B-2 flew in BoB.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,I believe a few B-2s did indeed see some service toward the end of the BoB,but it certainly didn't see much action there. I think the B-2's major combat debut was in North Africa,but I'm not 100% sure.

"Not all who wander are lost."

Zigismund
03-15-2004, 11:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zigismund:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by necrobaron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fillmore:
"AFAIK, in the BoB Stuka was considered very weak, especially in its tail section."

AFAIK we do not have the BoB Stuka.

From Alex Vanags-Baginskis book:

"Subsequently a number of field modifications were introduced in the light of operational experience and applied to both the Ju87B-1 and B-2...Ju87B-1/U3 (B-2/U3) (1941/1941) Fitted with additional armour protection for the crew and engine."

For Ju87D-3 he says:

"Basic "Dora" airframe with added armour protection for the crew, engine and radiators."

I believe BoB was the operational experience he is referring to that taught the Germans that they needed to up the armour on the Stukas (especially if they were going to invade Russia lol).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,the B-1 was the primary Stuka varient that saw service in the BoB. After the mauling over Britain,the new B-2 saw much improvement in armour protection. The B-1 is the varient that (perhaps unfairly and prematurely) destroyed the 87's previously fearsome reputation and instead gave the Stuka the reputation of being gun fodder.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, I didn't know that B-2 was improved over B-1 in armour protection. However, I was convinced that B-2 flew in BoB.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,I believe a _few_ B-2s did indeed see some service toward the end of the BoB,but it certainly didn't see much action there. I think the B-2's major combat debut was in North Africa,but I'm not 100% sure.

"Not all who wander are lost."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, I think that B-2 saw major combat debut over Yugoslavia and Greece. BTW, I am glad to see that some people have similar feelings about Stuka toughness in the game. Also, I am glad that AEP has changed that.

Best,
Zigismund

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