PDA

View Full Version : What's wrong with the P-47? Rephrase of question



Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 01:06 PM
I originally posted this a few minutes ago and it was quickly deleted, I guess because the topic line included bad word. So I rephrased the question.
Seriously, it seem's that nobody but the devoted fans of the P-47(Myself included obviously)take it seriously. Even Oleg has stated that they were basically a sub-standard a/c. This apalls me, to believe that one of the most used and valuable a/c in the USAAF could be considered not valuable to this game. While I understand it is not the most glamorous of aircraft, nor the best turner and so on, BUT she has many, many very good attributes. Last time I checked the true value of a fighter a/c was it's ability to bring it's pilot home after a successful encounter or even after a little abuse. The Jug is very well known for this, and was used with much success in all theatres of operation as the true workhorse of the fighter corps of the USAAF. But yet she is forgotten, always overshadowed by the very deservingly loved P-51, but is there not enough light for the P-47 to shine as well? I cannot understand why there seem's to be so much animosity from OM's standpoint on the Jug as well as some of the community. Tell me what makes the Jug the crappy plane you all seem to think it is. Can we not have a natural line of variants like the Yaks, 109's, 190's, La's and so on? There were many, many variants of the P-47 each adding more to the already good list of excllent qualities of the Jug. Yet we cannot have them, because of what reason? I am dying to know, this is not a flame war, but I want to know if there are any good reasons why we dedicated P-47 jocks are always at the bottom of the list, we have kept fairly quiet and yet we still have an undermodelled a/c(D-27), we just happily fly it. But the second we ask nicely for a/c that actually flew combat and with excellent records(see my P-47M and N thread), we get slapped in the face. Many a/c are in this game because a dedicated fan took the tiem to create them, well here I am been fighting this for so long with a modeller to make the a/c and yet I can't have mine too? Why? And before you even feel like saying because it is too late, I have been trying to get this done for almost a year now, and the first two modellers either got too busy or were discouraged by the apalling bias on some peoples parts. Yet I carried on and here I am with a third modeller and even a fourth to try again and still they fight us. Why? I want a serious answer, I feel those of us who are dedicated to the P-47 deserve an answer, we have been playing by the rules, and yet we silently watch as all of these other a/c get added, hoping that the kind wizard will grant us our wishes as he has done for everyone else. But alas, he does not, and I am curious as to why. So now you can flame away, or what I really am hoping for a sincere discussion on why this is occuring.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 01:06 PM
I originally posted this a few minutes ago and it was quickly deleted, I guess because the topic line included bad word. So I rephrased the question.
Seriously, it seem's that nobody but the devoted fans of the P-47(Myself included obviously)take it seriously. Even Oleg has stated that they were basically a sub-standard a/c. This apalls me, to believe that one of the most used and valuable a/c in the USAAF could be considered not valuable to this game. While I understand it is not the most glamorous of aircraft, nor the best turner and so on, BUT she has many, many very good attributes. Last time I checked the true value of a fighter a/c was it's ability to bring it's pilot home after a successful encounter or even after a little abuse. The Jug is very well known for this, and was used with much success in all theatres of operation as the true workhorse of the fighter corps of the USAAF. But yet she is forgotten, always overshadowed by the very deservingly loved P-51, but is there not enough light for the P-47 to shine as well? I cannot understand why there seem's to be so much animosity from OM's standpoint on the Jug as well as some of the community. Tell me what makes the Jug the crappy plane you all seem to think it is. Can we not have a natural line of variants like the Yaks, 109's, 190's, La's and so on? There were many, many variants of the P-47 each adding more to the already good list of excllent qualities of the Jug. Yet we cannot have them, because of what reason? I am dying to know, this is not a flame war, but I want to know if there are any good reasons why we dedicated P-47 jocks are always at the bottom of the list, we have kept fairly quiet and yet we still have an undermodelled a/c(D-27), we just happily fly it. But the second we ask nicely for a/c that actually flew combat and with excellent records(see my P-47M and N thread), we get slapped in the face. Many a/c are in this game because a dedicated fan took the tiem to create them, well here I am been fighting this for so long with a modeller to make the a/c and yet I can't have mine too? Why? And before you even feel like saying because it is too late, I have been trying to get this done for almost a year now, and the first two modellers either got too busy or were discouraged by the apalling bias on some peoples parts. Yet I carried on and here I am with a third modeller and even a fourth to try again and still they fight us. Why? I want a serious answer, I feel those of us who are dedicated to the P-47 deserve an answer, we have been playing by the rules, and yet we silently watch as all of these other a/c get added, hoping that the kind wizard will grant us our wishes as he has done for everyone else. But alas, he does not, and I am curious as to why. So now you can flame away, or what I really am hoping for a sincere discussion on why this is occuring.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 01:10 PM
oops there it is, it seems the boards are up to their usual shenanigans. You can delete this one or the other Mods. But please leave one up, this is for a serious discussion.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

VW-IceFire
01-26-2004, 01:15 PM
The response that Oleg gave you shows us that he is a human being like the rest of us. He's capable of mistakes and having beliefs that may or may not be true. What he's learned about WWII aircraft come from a different perspective than we do. I've had to shed alot of belief that was hammered into me when I was learning about this stuff as a kid in the 80's and early 90's where it was still believed that every piece of Russian equipment was substandard. The Russian contribution in WWII was never even mentioned to me until I got this huge book on WWII aircraft about 1992 or so and there was info on the IL-2.

Even more recently have I been able to shed some other beliefs of mine that Russian present day jets were substandard to US equipment when they infact represented a equal (although in different ways) level of technology and effectiveness.

What Oleg replied with to you shows that he doesn't know everything (none of us do). The P-47 in its last role of the war became a ground attack plane...I suspect later he learned that it was THE frontline fighter to beat and a GOOD fighter for the USAAF for most of the European War. We know the P-47N served in the PTO and would have served in the ETO had the war lasted even another few weeks because the aircraft had already been shipped over for deployment (with the war over they were quickly shiped to Iwo Jima for redeployment there).

Now the biggest problems of the P-47D-27 have been solved (the poor firepower and the serverly crippled roll rate). That roll rate still isn't perfect but its not bad...I can fight effectively in this plane. Its deadly now where it wasn't before.

I think in some ways we are challenging perceptions left over from old Cold War thinking that filtered down into the lowest levels. I don't for a second believe that its an intentional slight...it shouldn't be taken personally and nor should it be responded to personally. We should have hard facts, evidence, historical information, and the whole deal.

We know the P-47N served, was effective, was better than the D-27 in virtually all capacities. The N should probably roll a bit faster than the D-10 we have right now. Just the facts...ultimate decision is not in our ball court.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

A.K.Davis
01-26-2004, 01:27 PM
Oleg's perspective is based on the P-47 in Russian service. In Russian service, the P-47 was sub-standard (to their own standards and operational requirements). Why? Because the Russians were not fighting the Germans at 6000m+. Even U.S. pilots could agree that in all characteristics save durability, the P-51 was superior to the P-47 at altitudes below 6000m.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 01:29 PM
Excellent, you are right I had the same view of Russian equipment and contribution. We were never taught it in history and books have been obscure on the fact. It has taken this game to open my eyes and to learn more to realize just how great the VVS stuff was and how great their contribution was. I can only hope with a steady diet of information and facts we can show OM that the P-47N in the very least deserves to be in this game, because it was the supreme P-47. But as you said once he has those facts it is up to him, and out of our hands completely. Only time will tell.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

A.K.Davis
01-26-2004, 01:49 PM
The P-47N is not absent from the game because Oleg has not recognized it's quality, or because he has some deep-seated bias against it. The P-47N is not in the game because no person with the 3-D modelling skills has shown interest in creating it.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 01:55 PM
Actually A.K.
I have a modeller ready to do it, and this is the third time I have requested it to finally hearing back from Oleg simply stating he wont add it beacuse it is a crappy plane. His email is in my Attn P-47 lovers thread. I have repeatedly emailed him(understandably he is busy), with a modeller ready to go to action but not wanting to waste their time and mine. And his only response is no because he doesn't feel like adding another P-47. I really am trying not to be bitter about the whole deal, but we have played by the rules and done what you are supposed to do and it has counted for nothing.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

Freycinet
01-26-2004, 02:54 PM
You whine about not getting a certain sub-model of the P-47 in the game!??

Think of the Bf-110-lovers, the Pe-2-lovers, the Spitfire-lovers, etc., etc. who haven't even gotten ONE flyable of their favourite plane in this game!!

Meanwhile you've got the P-47 in two major variants in the game.

Frankly, that counts as whining in my book.

Oleg bent over backwards to get you the Jug, working together with the marvellous Brazilian modellers who made the external model and the cockpits. I think he did quite something, but there's some people you can never satisfy, even though they got free P-47's and a free p-51.

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 03:02 PM
Free??? Hell I don't mind if I pay for it, and I am the one paying the modeller to make it in the first place. I am doing something about getting a P-47 added, instead of *****ing about it. And even then it won't get into the game. I understand that there is no flyable 110, Spit and Pe-2 and many, many more which are all tragedies in my book. But I am here trying to get a model I am putting together and funding that will not be included, and it's not just some "sub-model" it's a member of the family of the P-47 regardless. It would be same if someone said the same thing about some "sub-model" of the 109 like a K-4 or a some "sub-model" of the 190 like the Dora. Think about what you are saying. If I knew anything about those various a/c,and was rich enough to do it, I would be funding even more of these projects, but this is the one I am working on now. Maybe more people should do as I am, and actually do something about getting whatever plane they deem needed instead of knocking other peoples works and complaining.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

[This message was edited by Eagle_361st on Mon January 26 2004 at 02:15 PM.]

p1ngu666
01-26-2004, 03:13 PM
for the M version, very little work would be need tbh. a few minor bits on the 3rd model, probably a bit of cockpit work, and some slight fm changes
its hardly like making a entire plane from scratch

RED_BEAR8
01-26-2004, 03:36 PM
sub models well if that is the point to be a whiner i am a big one for example, i would like to see the Flyable models of doras like d13 d12 etc. I would like the bf 110 on A C and G a great missing of this game and of couser the

P-47n m the b24 the b26.

About the focus of oleg about the plane, i agreed he has the russian piont of view, the jug is a thinker palne is not a plane to be turning as i have seen some many guys in online, this is a very good high altitud plane that makes you think, not use g for brain.

About the time i was thinking on that Oleg is allready commited to BOB. letys cross fingers and see.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Chuck_Older
01-26-2004, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
You whine about not getting a certain sub-model of the P-47 in the game!??

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a bit out of line, isn't it? I can see how you may be sick of hearing the same arguments again and again, but nobody's whining here. I wonder if there's such a thing as whine-whiners? Not a dig on you but every time I see someone comment on something he thinks may be wrong, he's immediately a whiner of one sort of another.


For the record, I play FB as it was out-of-the-box. I have a crummy dialup on ancient phone lines and online play isn't fun, it's frustrating because of the lag and I can't have much fun as a target drone. Also I haven't dl'd a single update or patch. BUT
I can say that from what I know of the P-47 the 'mush' feels right-on. I've never flown, say, a P-51 in FB. I have no reason to right now as I still enjoy the game as a sort of microcosm of war, where a certain type of high performance low and mid altitude plane was best. It's a little bit like why I liked WWI sims, but that's another story. But my point is: The P-47 and to a lesser extent the P-51 is not an easy a/c to get into FB and be effective. Just like an La-5 might have a tough time escorting B-17s to Regensburg from Debden then fighting a high altitude fight, the P-47 isn't as easy to integrate into a low level turn fight arena. When I get the add-on maybe that will be different as I assume that the updates and patches will ship with it. I guess we'll see.

*****************************
do I hear the echoes of the days of '39? ~Clash

A.K.Davis
01-26-2004, 04:57 PM
Okay, I hadn't read the other thread before, but I don't see Oleg calling it a "crappy plane." I think his point is that it is not significantly different than the D-27, saw little service, and would require all the work of a whole new model (cockpit, external and FM), not just a sub-variant.

If you are expecting a promise from him to include a hypothetical aircraft not yet modelled, especially one that doesn't have particular appeal (in a wider sense), then I'm not surprised about his response.

If you came to him with a complete model and cockpit that required no reworking from Maddox Games, I'm sure he might reconsider. He would know then exactly how much work his team would have to do, and how much time to do it in.

But coming to him with a hypothetical project, well, it really is in both his interests and the interests of the modeller to encourage something of more value to the future of FB.

I'm glad you asked him, though, because it had the unintended consequence of "officially" confirming that Luthier's project is indeed the Pacific. Thanks.

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

SpremeCommander
01-26-2004, 05:05 PM
I have been kicking butt big time in the 47 recently. It's very fast, very tough, and has a huge punch. Like any other plane, you must know its strengths and weaknesses in order to do well.

Eagle_361st
01-26-2004, 05:13 PM
Good point A.K. well I am going forward with the P-47N as a whole new model with cockpit included. Perhaps I am reading between the lines, but it seems as if though everytime a Jug get's mentioned has nothing good to say about it. If the P-47N makes it into the game, great if it doesn't well I tried and then I will move on to the next sim in hopes of it getting included there.

~S!
Eagle
Commanding Officer 361st vFG
www.361stvfg.com (http://www.361stvfg.com)
http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1003.jpg

Menthol_moose
01-26-2004, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SpremeCommander:
I have been kicking butt big time in the 47 recently. It's very fast, very tough, and has a huge punch. Like any other plane, you must know its strengths and weaknesses in order to do well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im not a expert, but id say the P-47 is a plane that requires a huge amount of patience to fly properly. Lots of altitude and speed, flying down on a opponent for a unsuspecting deadly one shot pass, then fleeing to the skys again for another pass.

"This is my mustang, there are many like it but this one is mine ! "

Bearcat99
01-26-2004, 09:55 PM
I know what Oleg said but I cant help but thnk that once he does some research or once he gets the completed model..especially if it is good he will put it in. Oleg is just like all of us..he has the limitations of HIS siide of the story but as a simmaker I am sure he has done loads of research. I cant help but think once he gets the model the chances of getting it in go up dramatically. Especially since the PTO is coming. For me IL2 was an eye opener. I had no idea that the Russians had such awesome aircraft. These sims have not only rekindled my intrest in WW2 AC but opened up worlds I never even dreamed existed........ Hang in there Sean.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

TheGozr
01-26-2004, 11:18 PM
Yea do it.

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

Cajun76
01-27-2004, 03:13 AM
AKD, the P-47N outperformed the D series in every way, especially in roll and top speed, two of the best attributes of the D series. It represents the ultimate P-47, especially for PTO operations, like we're apparently getting. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

467mph @ 32,000 ft, 100 degrees/ second roll at 250mph TAS, versus the best D at about 85 degrees/second at the same speed. As speed increases, the N increases the differance in rollrate even more. Range of over 2300 miles with max internal and external fuel. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Cajun likes. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-27-2004, 03:39 AM
I know one thing. The TA-152 is going to be tuff to beat without the P-47N http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif As of now I fly 2 planes 99% of the time P-47 and P-51 and although they both have issues I would like to see corrected I do very well in both. And I cant help to mention that I flew the Jug exclusivly even in 1.0 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg