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View Full Version : Why do antagonists stand up and while they die?



CatsNipYummy
12-22-2015, 09:21 PM
I finally got around to playing Syndicate and the one of the first things I noticed is how antagonists stand up and converse with you after we've delivered the final blow. Isn't this the first time Ubisoft has tried this? I felt a serious sense of disconnect when the camera was switching between say Jacob and an antagonist. Here's a random walkthrough video I found online. Did anyone else feel the same when they played the game? Just curious.


https://youtu.be/xpInw6fXdYs?t=1232

VestigialLlama4
12-22-2015, 09:28 PM
I finally got around to playing Syndicate and the one of the first things I noticed is how antagonists stand up and converse with you after we've delivered the final blow. Isn't this the first time Ubisoft has tried this?

Actually no. You had this in the very first Assassin's Creed game..The post-kill dialogue was always intended to be a stylistic thing. The sequels made these instances more realistic by making it look like they are actually speaking on their deathbeds.


I felt a serious sense of disconnect when the camera was switching between say Jacob and an antagonist. Here's a random walkthrough video I found online. Did anyone else feel the same when they played the game? Just curious.

Basically, it's a stylistic quirk, the point is that when Assassins attack their targets, the game wants you to realize that the targets are human and have some qualities and viewpoints.

cawatrooper9
12-22-2015, 10:04 PM
VL4's right, this is very evocative of AC1- only this time it's a little more blatant and convenient, since you don't have to press the button to trigger the glitch that shows them walking around and alive.

And yes, it's to make them more sympathetic- the targets typically talk about their actions from their point of view, so showing them as they lived, rather than as they are dying, is to make them more sympathetic.

Assassin_M
12-22-2015, 10:08 PM
Welcome to the family

Farlander1991
12-22-2015, 11:02 PM
Also, Syndicate while doesn't blatantly state or prove that, it hints that targets don't actually say anything, which in real life would be hard considering that with the throat damage they'd be gurgling blood more than talking. They even show a bit of gurgling in some split seconds between switches from 'stand' to 'lie down in blood'. It's even more abstract than in AC1 where, if you didn't press buttons when glitches appeared, targets would talk lying down.

Btw, speaking of throat damage, I just realized, did Edward Kenway in AC4 never kill anyone with a strike to the throat? As far as I remember they all were holding their chests (which is why dying was slow and they could talk, I guess).

Sesheenku
12-23-2015, 12:08 AM
You must be new dear... This has been in the game since day 1. Only a few main games didn't have it. Unity being one of them.

phoenix-force411
12-23-2015, 02:56 AM
It's been in the games since the original Assassin's Creed. It didn't officially come back until Assassin's Creed Syndicate. I've always liked this idea. The Ezio Trilogy abandoned it, and because Ubisoft was super bias with the Assassins vs Templars conflict, Ezio pretty much overshadowed his enemies. He sounded like he was right and they were wrong which defeated the purpose of the White Rooms being relevant. Only Tarik's white room scene was actually the most meaningful one in the Ezio's Trilogy, to me, at least. ACIII still has the best White Room scenes, because they were powerful.

Civona
12-23-2015, 05:54 AM
yeah it's a way to give targets more ability to convey their attitude and motivation while they're dying, since generally people lose most of their charisma while they're bleeding out.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's a shortcut that allows you to avoid having to tell the story of who the target is BEFORE the player kills them, because the target can just talk to you and tell you what's going on instead. I think my favorite memory corridor scenes were the happy medium AC3 established: the targets didn't get up and walk around, but their animations were unique realistic death throes, according to the circumstance they were dying in. So instead of showing these targets at their most charismatic, they showed them at their most vulnerable and pitiable, which I feel is a more human and relatable approach than AC usually takes.

Black Flag did this sort of as well, but it wasn't good in the same ways because Edward's self-interest usually took precedence over whatever the target was actually saying. To be fair that's what that story was about, but I liked Connor partially because he seemed to genuinely care about trying to understand the people whose lives he was ending.

VestigialLlama4
12-23-2015, 06:36 AM
yeah it's a way to give targets more ability to convey their attitude and motivation while they're dying, since generally people lose most of their charisma while they're bleeding out.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think it's a shortcut that allows you to avoid having to tell the story of who the target is BEFORE the player kills them, because the target can just talk to you and tell you what's going on instead. I think my favorite memory corridor scenes were the happy medium AC3 established: the targets didn't get up and walk around, but their animations were unique realistic death throes, according to the circumstance they were dying in. So instead of showing these targets at their most charismatic, they showed them at their most vulnerable and pitiable, which I feel is a more human and relatable approach than AC usually takes.

Black Flag did this sort of as well, but it wasn't good in the same ways because Edward's self-interest usually took precedence over whatever the target was actually saying. To be fair that's what that story was about, but I liked Connor partially because he seemed to genuinely care about trying to understand the people whose lives he was ending.

In AC1, the point was to emphasize that killing is a big deal. That taking somebody's life is a serious matter as Altair keeps discussing with the Rafiqs and Al Mualim. In gameplay terms this is problematic because shouldn't every random guard have a killchat with Altair after he kills them? Or can we assume that the only people Altair kills are his targets. So I like the concept, it's meant to dial down the whole triumphal aspect of you killing someone in a cool and awesome way. This works better in AC3, because Connor has nonlethal options unlike Altair, he can beat up people with his fists and theoretically not kill anyone who isn't a target, and there the Templar targets were all genuinely believable human types. In Black Flag, the saddest dialogue was with Hornigold because he and Edward were once friends.

I always felt that the kill-chat dialogue is not meant to be taken literally, that it should be something left for the audience to interpret. Is this really how it happened, is this merely an imaginary conversation that the Assassin had with the target, is this, as Unity suggested (not entirely successfully) a result of the Eagle Sense communing with the target's departing consciousness, or is this something the Animus cooks up?

I think these devices work the less it's explained. And that's kind of true to a lot of the larger mythic aspects of AC. Especially the First Civ and the Apples and Pieces of Eden.

CatsNipYummy
12-23-2015, 11:24 PM
The post death sequence has always been a part of Creed. I've seen it from AC 1 onwards. What was troubling me was the way the antagonists talk to you. They are standing up while they converse, which I found was a disconnect. I was looking at videos from past games like Brotherhood and Unity. Its true Unity does not have the "animus" looking background while they talk. In the below screenshot, Ezio has Cesare in his arms while he talks. That feels right. But now, when Jacob talks, he's talking to a body that's on the floor but when that body is talking back to him, he seems to be standing up. That felt weird to me.

http://imgur.com/qwxbByx

Assassin_M
12-23-2015, 11:53 PM
The post death sequence has always been a part of Creed. I've seen it from AC 1 onwards. What was troubling me was the way the antagonists talk to you. They are standing up while they converse, which I found was a disconnect. I was looking at videos from past games like Brotherhood and Unity. Its true Unity does not have the "animus" looking background while they talk. In the below screenshot, Ezio has Cesare in his arms while he talks. That feels right. But now, when Jacob talks, he's talking to a body that's on the floor but when that body is talking back to him, he seems to be standing up. That felt weird to me.



https://youtu.be/gHVFMJvg4Q4?t=17m17s

17:17

ImaginaryRuins
12-24-2015, 11:52 AM
The post death sequence has always been a part of Creed. I've seen it from AC 1 onwards. What was troubling me was the way the antagonists talk to you. They are standing up while they converse, which I found was a disconnect. http://imgur.com/qwxbByx

I believe most other forum users have already answered your question rather brilliantly. In reality, the dying targets speak while lying down, but to emphasize that the targets are also humans and highlight their expressions / gestures to us observers, the designers insert those "targets look like still alive" scenes. Furthermore, when the dying targets have so many things to say, the camera angle staying the same, focusing on the lied-down-targets the whole time, would make the conversations boring.

In AC1, I believe most, if not all, targets' post-assassination cutscenes feature them standing up talking.

As for whether this decision is good or not, that is up to everyone's own opinion. I personally do not see that problematic as I know it is done out of stylistic consideration rather than reality.