PDA

View Full Version : Nomonhan/Khalkin Gol - a possibility?



chris455
08-30-2004, 07:36 PM
We already have nearly all of the Soviet types, I-16, TB3,etc. If we could get a Mongolia map and a Ki-27 plus a Japanese bomber, we could see some truly "Forgotten Battles".
I wonder if anyone besides me would be interested?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

chris455
08-30-2004, 07:36 PM
We already have nearly all of the Soviet types, I-16, TB3,etc. If we could get a Mongolia map and a Ki-27 plus a Japanese bomber, we could see some truly "Forgotten Battles".
I wonder if anyone besides me would be interested?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

necrobaron
08-30-2004, 11:24 PM
Actually, a Khalkin Gol project is already in the works. It's headed by Saqson(I think), so he could probably provide some details. I have no idea if this will get added to PF but I certainly hope so. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Feathered_IV
08-31-2004, 06:27 AM
Ah! Fingers crossed.

"If you tell me that it is necessary that we fight, then in the first six months to a year I will run wild, and I will show you an uninterrupted succession of victories. Should the war be prolonged for two or three years....I have no confidence in our ultimate victory" - Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto.

Tooz_69GIAP
08-31-2004, 06:38 AM
Yup, crappy plane heaven!!!! I'd love to see this as a campaign. How many maps would you need to model the theatre? Just one, or maybe two?? How long d'ye reckon it would take to do the maps?

From the terrain and location of the river valley, and from photos I've seen, the terrain is fairly rocky and barren, and has a fair amount of hills all around. The main river valley where most of the action took place is approx 60km x 120km I think, which is a reasonable size for a map in FB.

The other thing is also the aircraft. Although we have already the I-16 and 1-153, the I-16s available were generally the earlier types like the 5 and 6 with the sliding canopy and only 2 small MGs and stuff. And I think the most most numerous soviet fighter in the theatre was the I-15bis. I don't know what Japanese aircraft were present there though, so I can't comment on that.

And then there are the ground objects required. The soviet forces had T-34s, but I dunno which model, or if we already have that model in the game. And the different artillery units, and so on. And the japanese armour, I have no idea what type of armour they had present (although I do know that they pulled their artillery along with camels!!!).

Would be very cool if this could be added in.

Here's a good site with maps of the theatre and other good info about the battles:

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources/csi/drea2/drea2.asp#25

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

http://www.baseclass.modulweb.dk/69giap/fileadmin/Image_Archive/badges/69giap_badge_tooz.jpg (http://giap.webhop.info)
Executive Officer, 69th GIAP
Za Rodinu!
Petition to stop the M3 motorway through the Tara-Skryne Valley in Co. Meath, Ireland (http://www.petitiononline.com/hilltara/petition.html)

Giganoni
08-31-2004, 01:21 PM
The Japanese armor consisted of:

Type 89 Medium Tank (their first native built tank)
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/Yi-go.JPG

Type 97 Medium Tank that was common in WWII
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/chiha.gif

Type 94 Tankette
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/tk2.JPG

And the common type 95 light tank
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/ha-go.JPG

All tanks fine against soft targets, not against tanks.

IJAAF fighter planes consisted of probably the Ki-10 (type 95 fighter) and mostly the Ki-27. Maybe some older types like the 92 as well, not sure.

All tank images from this great webpage
http://www3.plala.or.jp/takihome/

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

SaQSoN
08-31-2004, 03:02 PM
We're working on it. Unfortunately, the work on the project have been slowed down due to my work in PF project.
Fortunately, the PF has almost all necessary ground units for the Halkhin-Ghol. And, BTW, we did some of them.
Now the map is also under construction.
And if the project will be ever finished, it, probably, will be a PF addon.
BTW, some planes from it, like Ki-30, Ki-27 and Ki-21 are also sutable for the Burma campaign.

drapis
08-31-2004, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Yup, crappy plane heaven!!!!
...
The other thing is also the aircraft. Although we have already the I-16 and 1-153, the I-16s available were generally the earlier types like the 5 and 6 with the sliding canopy and only 2 small MGs and stuff. And I think the most most numerous soviet fighter in the theatre was the I-15bis. I don't know what Japanese aircraft were present there though, so I can't comment on that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We would need some light army bombers: Ki-30&Ki-32, Fighters Ki-10&27 and Ki-21 bomber minimum.

Russian I-16 Type 10, I-152 and Polikarpov R-Z and TB-3 we already have http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


PS: Those I-16 drivers would have to use B&Z, LOL

Killing for peace is like whoring for virginity.

LEXX_Luthor
08-31-2004, 04:28 PM
Not just Mongolia but CHINA also saw the largest air battles since World War 1.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>On 4 November 1939 72 G3Ms....attacked Chengdu in Sichuan Province in retaliation for a highly successful attack on the Hankou Huang-chia-tun Airfield on 14 October 1939. (DB-3 bombers flown by Soviet volunteers, who claimed over 50 Japanese Army and Navy aircraft destroyed during this attack.) The G3Ms came over in two formations, each with 36 aircraft. Captain Okuda (nicknamed 'King of the Bombers'), commander of the 13th Ku, led the first formation with all of the aircraft from 13th Kokutai.

The Chinese responded by sending two formations against the attackers. The first Japanese formation was heavily attacked by seven http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif Dewoitine D.510s http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif of the 17th PS, led by Captain Shen Tse-Liu and seven I-15bis from the 27th PS led by Captain Hsie Chuan-Ho.

Under "1939" ~&gt; http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
For the whole story on this battle Word Search for--&gt; 4 November 1939 and above it to find the earlier Soviet raids destroying Japanese airfields...DB3s bombing from 8700m altitude in one example. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif


Mission Builders Be Ready http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

heywooood
08-31-2004, 05:15 PM
it sounds craptacular...count me IN. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
Ol' Tired 'wooood

chris455
09-01-2004, 12:05 AM
I'm glad I asked, now the only question is:
What the hell will I fly? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/p47n2.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
09-01-2004, 01:24 AM
FLYABLE SB and DB~3.

SB with single seat pilot cockpit and Vee windscreen would feel like fighter (Lockheed P~38 had racing wheel too).


http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/images/Jatkosota/Rintama/43V%E4riLent%E4j%E4Koneessaan.jpg
~ http://www.sodatkuvina.cjb.net/



More here... http://www.netwings.org/dcforum/DCForumID43/1038.html



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

ELEM
09-01-2004, 01:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
The soviet forces had T-34s, but I dunno which model,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The T-34 did not enter service until mid 1940. The main tanks used by Zhukov in the Khalkin-Gol were T-26 and BT-7, both of which were better than anything the Japanese had.

I wouldn't join any club that would have ME as a member!

http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/I-16_desktop.jpg http://img35.photobucket.com/albums/v107/Elem_Klimov/dhm_787_small.jpg

SaQSoN
09-01-2004, 05:16 AM
There were no DB-3 used at Halkhin-Ghol or China. It was the TB-3.
No one, never said "flyable SB". It's not even in any plans of us.

LEXX_Luthor
09-01-2004, 08:58 AM
Wow! So this site is wrong about DB~3 in China? I hope not. If so, what else can they be missing?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Under "1939" ~ http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm

In the summer of 1939 the DB-3 long range bomber received its baptism of fire in the Chinese sky. They had no occasion for combat in Spain, for they had not yet been sufficiently developed, and very few machines had left the factory. It was decided to give the new equipment a test in China.

The first group of twelve DB-3s was commanded by Captain G. A. Kulishenko. Its crews were mainly from the 3rd Air Brigade based at Zaporozh'e. Kulishenko himself had a lot of flight time on this aircraft, even as a lieutenant he took part in the military testing of the DB-3 with the 90th Squadron. About a month the group prepared near Moscow. In June 1939 the aircraft flew off along the route Moscow-Orenburg-Alma-Ata. In each machine flew four to six men (since they took with them the staff and ground crews), and cargo of supplies, instruments and replacement parts. Polynin, who had just become deputy to the route commander, led the group along the southern route flying in an SB. All the landing fields as far as Anxi were to short for the DB-3s and their fuel reserves permitted them not to land. Therefore Polynin prepared a second SB at Urumchi. And while the bombers circled over the airfield, he landed and changed aircraft "on the run" and then flew on. As leader he led the DB-3s to Lanzhou, while they flew on their own the rest of the way to Chengdu.

After the first group there followed a second group, also of twelve DB-3s, under the command of N. A. Kozlov. With it went experienced pilots of the Voronezh 11th Aviation Brigade. The base for these groups at Chengdu became Taipingsi aerodrome (training centre). The aircraft were camouflaged, concealed with nets, and dispersed; the fuel was drained and the scaffolding was dragged off into a swamp.
:
:
:
3 October 1939
On 3 October the Kulishenko's group attacked Hankou aerodrome, which by then was in the deep rear of the enemy. The SBs could not reach this far and the Japanese did not expect any attacks. In the open the Japanese had located a naval aviation aerodrome designated "Base W." It was also used by pilots of Army Aviation. On this day the airbase prepared to receive new aircraft ferried from Japan and representatives of the fleet command and the city authorities had assembled there.

Nine DB-3s flew to the target unobserved, in a tight wedge, maintaining radio silence. They attacked as the ceremony was in progress. Aircraft stood in four rows, wing tip to wing tip. From an altitude of 8700 m. the Soviet volunteers bombed them with a mix of high explosive, fragmentation-high explosive and incendiary bombs.


14 October 1939
The attack on Hankou aerodrome was repeated on 14 October. Twelve DB-3s flew to the target, again led by Kulishenko. But just after dropping their bombs they were attacked by Japanese fighters and three bombers received damage. Wounded, Kulishenko flew his bomber as far as the city Wangxian, where he landed on the Yangtze River about 100-150 m. from the bank. After the aircraft came to a halt, he lowered the landing gear and the aircraft began to sink. Kulishenko died of his wounds. The aircraft was later pulled from the water and repaired.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bombing from 8700m does seem...excessive...for 1939. What gives here?

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif