PDA

View Full Version : Dear Ubisoft, please consider this for future games on PC



RVSage
12-11-2015, 07:20 PM
I would love to add the following to Ubisoft as whole

Please abandon, NVIDIA Gameworks, more often than not it earns you bad rep, turning gameworks on, impacts performance, Witcher 3 hairworks, AC Syndicate PCSS are some examples.

We already have consoles and PC we do not want specific games for AMD and NVIDIA in the PC market too,

And please release PC version along with consoles, do not delay PC releases., We do not want ports, we want games built from scratch for PC. I am a long time Ubisoft fan. Please this is my humble request for PC games

The first step in earning a good rep among PC community is to have the game, work same on similar NVIDIA / AMD hardware.

PS: I am a NVIDIA user, and I am not a fan of gameworks

Infinity8-8
12-11-2015, 08:13 PM
I disagree with the notion that Ubisoft should abandon NVIDIA Gameworks. Those gameworks features such as HBAO+, PCSS and hairworks do improve the visuals quite a bit. They are also intended to make the game future proof. So with current hardware it will impact the performance more than when you revisit the game few years later when there are more powerful graphics cards on the market.
What i do agree with is building the game from the ground up for PC. They should start having their game engines support DX12 and better optimize their games for PC.

RVSage
12-11-2015, 08:42 PM
I disagree with the notion that Ubisoft should abandon NVIDIA Gameworks. Those gameworks features such as HBAO+, PCSS and hairworks do improve the visuals quite a bit. They are also intended to make the game future proof. So with current hardware it will impact the performance more than when you revisit the game few years later when there are more powerful graphics cards on the market.
What i do agree with is building the game from the ground up for PC. They should start having their game engines support DX12 and better optimize their games for PC.

Yes they make games better, but do they work well on AMD??? No . When AMD released tressFX they optimized it for NVIDIA too.. Not like NVIDIA, who basically do not offer it for AMD. or help optimize it for AMD hardware. This is what I do not like. Nobody can deny the fact NVIDIA is playing anti-competitive, and by working with them, Ubisoft is earning itself a bad name

Yes one can disable gameworks and play the game. will work on AMD and NVIDIA cards , but that makes gameworks in a game basically useless

for instance look at syndicate run great on r9 390 (without gameworks), runs equivalent to my own 970, that is what is should be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SajaizcmMk

The second you turn on gameworks, the disparity between r9 390 and gtx 970 is too damn high (970 takes a performance hit too)

Frag_Maniac
12-12-2015, 04:55 AM
And please release PC version along with consoles, do not delay PC releases., We do not want ports, we want games built from scratch for PC.

This is a contradiction in terms. Even with ports, simultaneous releases can present a problem on PC, but surely you must realize that games built from scratch for PC, takes even longer.

I really wish you'd stop saying "we", because this is the kind of impatient, unrealistic thinking that PC players that came from being exclusive console players indulge in, and it's a big part of what's actually hurting, not helping PC.

TreadLife
12-12-2015, 07:05 AM
While you have a point, I really don't see Gameworks being that much of a reason for PC Ubi games being blighted. Simply put, the issue has been, and seems to continue to be, that the money controlling, powers that be, that make the decisions at Ubi, have never valued the PC market or it's customers as they deserve. They continue to make ports of games, and worse, always give the job to the cheapest, lowest common denominator they can find.
That's where the issues lie. Cutting out Nvidia made features might level things off more with AMD, but it won't change the glaring problems like an entire section of the Syndicate map causing an entire section of the PC players to have crashes and unloadable save games.
Making games from the ground up for PC would make a world of difference. But go ahead and try to count how many AAA publishers aren't console centric.

Frag_Maniac
12-12-2015, 07:26 AM
The Nvidia vs AMD endorsement debacle will be a bit more clear when we see Hitman and Mankind Divided release next year, both AMD endorsed.

Rohith_Kumar_Sp
12-12-2015, 01:26 PM
you can always turn them off if you don't want to use them and play without it, i don't see the point of removing them entirely. the more things you card has to render the more impact it has on your card. it's like saying remove the ultra settngs as it's too much hit on the peformance.

RVSage
12-12-2015, 07:37 PM
This is a contradiction in terms. Even with ports, simultaneous releases can present a problem on PC, but surely you must realize that games built from scratch for PC, takes even longer.

I really wish you'd stop saying "we", because this is the kind of impatient, unrealistic thinking that PC players that came from being exclusive console players indulge in, and it's a big part of what's actually hurting, not helping PC.

I really wish people stop assuming, I am a PC gamer since 1990s, never played on consoles. And I never said this should happen over night. Being a software dev myself(I am not a game dev), I exactly know how long it takes to shift development process. So next time you try reading between lines, you better do a better job of it. I am not asking things to change over night. I am just asking them to look into things that may benefit them in the long run. As you said in your other comment, game developers need stay out off NVIDIA vs AMD specific features and try remain neutral.

RVSage
12-12-2015, 07:52 PM
you can always turn them off if you don't want to use them and play without it, i don't see the point of removing them entirely. the more things you card has to render the more impact it has on your card. it's like saying remove the ultra settngs as it's too much hit on the peformance.

Yes these are above ultra or ultra settings. My point is they should work the same on both AMD and NVIDIA. If they work better on one card. What is the point, of having them. There must be parity for customers who pay the same amount for a similar graphic card, from a different vendor. A 390 should be more or less the performance region of a 970. but the disparity on such cards with NVIDIA gameworks enabled is too huge. The question is not if the features add to beauty, The question does everybody get the same , for the price they payed (In this case I mean the graphic card + game)

YazX_
12-12-2015, 09:28 PM
Yes these are above ultra or ultra settings. My point is they should work the same on both AMD and NVIDIA. If they work better on one card. What is the point, of having them. There must be parity for customers who pay the same amount for a similar graphic card, from a different vendor. A 390 should be more or less the performance region of a 970. but the disparity on such cards with NVIDIA gameworks enabled is too huge. The question is not if the features add to beauty, The question does everybody get the same , for the price they payed (In this case I mean the graphic card + game)

i do understand and value what you are saying, from customers stand point this is the right thing to do, but in business, it doesn't work this way, don't forget that AMD started this whole thing, they started to give free games and partnering with devs and publishers to optimize games for their hardware, Nvidia naturally had to respond and partnered with other devs and publishers, i do hope for this to stop and just get back to the old days, but i don't think this will come any time soon, unfortunately, we as customers have to play and get affected by these rules set by both vendors.

Frag_Maniac
12-13-2015, 05:44 AM
I really wish people stop assuming, I am a PC gamer since 1990s, never played on consoles. And I never said this should happen over night. Being a software dev myself(I am not a game dev), I exactly know how long it takes to shift development process. So next time you try reading between lines, you better do a better job of it. I am not asking things to change over night. I am just asking them to look into things that may benefit them in the long run. As you said in your other comment, game developers need stay out off NVIDIA vs AMD specific features and try remain neutral.


I never said directly you came from exclusive console playing, I said this is the exact kind of talk that comes from those whom did. Meaning you are not being at all understanding about it, esp if you've done any significant game related developing for PC as you say now.

And actually it DOES sound like you think things should be equal in time frame of development. Your tone is that of the dime a dozen disgruntled, impatient customer, not one whom has been on the other side of the coding. So if anything, you should know better.

The subject of neutrality is another issue, and has little to do with customers because they don't really have any control over it. Realistic release dates are something that customers can easily influence with a little patience though, just by not paying $60 for rushed games.

RVSage
12-13-2015, 08:21 AM
I never said directly you came from exclusive console playing, I said this is the exact kind of talk that comes from those whom did. Meaning you are not being at all understanding about it, esp if you've done any significant game related developing for PC as you say now.

And actually it DOES sound like you think things should be equal in time frame of development. Your tone is that of the dime a dozen disgruntled, impatient customer, not one whom has been on the other side of the coding. So if anything, you should know better.

The subject of neutrality is another issue, and has little to do with customers because they don't really have any control over it. Realistic release dates are something that customers can easily influence with a little patience though, just by not paying $60 for rushed games.

clearly said I am not a game dev . And regarding time frame I never said it is a must. AS the the title of my thread says , I am only saying consider this. I am not saying do this . Everything discussed here is some suggest ions I feel could help Ubi, gamers. Not everyone needs to agree, with me. Like you, I like some aspects of the game. I am not a fan of some aspects. My very title is "consider this" not "DO THIS" Anyway let's move this to PM shall we

RVSage
12-13-2015, 09:00 AM
i do understand and value what you are saying, from customers stand point this is the right thing to do, but in business, it doesn't work this way, don't forget that AMD started this whole thing, they started to give free games and partnering with devs and publishers to optimize games for their hardware, Nvidia naturally had to respond and partnered with other devs and publishers, i do hope for this to stop and just get back to the old days, but i don't think this will come any time soon, unfortunately, we as customers have to play and get affected by these rules set by both vendors.

As a customer, we can explain out point of view to devs can't we? Maybe they will listen and figure out something :) And they may not. But worth a try. And as you said, let's hope we get back to the old days

Rohith_Kumar_Sp
12-13-2015, 09:57 AM
you mean the old days where devs had mutiple saves and ambient tracks while free roaming in game ? idk, i dont think they will get back to it.
you just have to adapt.

strigoi1958
12-13-2015, 02:10 PM
Nvidia gameworks is the biggest source of complaints by a huge margin, unfortunately people complain to the game devs and do not come to the geforce forum where the rest of us give feedback... the amount of people who do not understand that settings can be selected and do not have to be "MAXXED OUT" is unbelievable... especially people who complain about an occasional 5 FPS drop when they're exceeding the capability of their system with these performance crushing settings :(:confused:

Perhaps educating people would be a good start as I doubt Nvidia will make settings greyed out and unusable for people with insufficient GPU's....
Nvidia's showpiece is gameworks... their selling point... they are aware it causes performance problems but... that makes people upgrade to more expensive GPU's (As I do frequently but it makes little difference). And so they will never go away.... and "game ready" drivers will never be game ready and the real ones will be 4 weeks later just as they've always been ;)

I can honestly say that if I were able to use a controller or a keyboard was an option I'd probably game on a console. The console graphics nowadays are very very good and failing that I'd happily play games that do not require 60 FPS to be locked at 30 FPS just to stop the few who have little else to fill their lives apart from scouring games to nit pick ;)

Seaclean
12-13-2015, 03:34 PM
I highly disagree. I love Nvidia Gameworks features and it helps distinguish them from the inferior console versions... I agree that sometimes Gameworks creates more problems simply by being there, and of course, it goes without saying that I prefer the game to actually WORK and SUPPORT gameworks and not have a cheap gameworks feature slapped on without any proper technical support.

But yeah, I love Gameworks features. :)

RVSage
12-13-2015, 08:05 PM
you mean the old days where devs had mutiple saves and ambient tracks while free roaming in game ? idk, i dont think they will get back to it.
you just have to adapt.

Hmm okay , ambient tracks was not there in unity, even if not like black flag, syndicate had some nice tracks, which was okay to me, you clearly are not happy with it (which is your personal opinion). Multiple saves again, to me it is not a great issue , I can work around it (Note I do agree it is an issue, but I would not worry too much about it, because I can work around).

Yes right now I am adjusting. But just like you are asking for multiple saves, I asking them to consider this. It may or may not happen. We both know that, don't we?

RVSage
12-13-2015, 08:07 PM
I highly disagree. I love Nvidia Gameworks features and it helps distinguish them from the inferior console versions... I agree that sometimes Gameworks creates more problems simply by being there, and of course, it goes without saying that I prefer the game to actually WORK and SUPPORT gameworks and not have a cheap gameworks feature slapped on without any proper technical support.

But yeah, I love Gameworks features. :)

I like the features as well, it is beautiful. But as I have stated in the thread. It is the breeding ground for some unfair things happening to customers , which I would like to see avoided.

Anykeyer
12-14-2015, 08:25 AM
You can always disable this stuff.

RVSage
12-16-2015, 06:51 AM
You can always disable this stuff.

Well yes, As I stated before disabling it is not the issue. Why have something that cannot work on equivalent hardware? It is not fair to customers who pay for the a similar card, but cannot access all features because they chose a different brand ? Nope

Between, AMD has just done one step better
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-gpuopen-open-source-development,30750.html

Rohith_Kumar_Sp
12-16-2015, 07:29 AM
Well yes, As I stated before disabling it is not the issue. Why have something that cannot work on equivalent hardware? It is not fair to customers who pay for the a similar card, but cannot access all features because they chose a different brand ? Nope

Between, AMD has just done one step better
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-gpuopen-open-source-development,30750.html

you buy an apple watch you pay the same price as everyone and yet i can't use the all the features of the watch when i use it on a android phone, not fair to the customers who pay for a similar phone, apple watch should remove ios on their watch and make use of an open source linux os. right ?

Anykeyer
12-16-2015, 09:20 AM
LOL. So if 20% of the userbase cant have it with a good performance no one should? Are you a communist by any chance?

RVSage
12-16-2015, 06:59 PM
LOL. So if 20% of the userbase cant have it with a good performance no one should? Are you a communist by any chance?

I am not saying no one should, I am saying everyone should. Not that Ubi is going to change any of it. Just giving it a try.

@Rohit_kumar_Sp your anology does not fit here. ioS and android are for two different things, with differenr apps (some common apps of course). Apps developed are developed differently.

But do games have different codes running on different machines? (yea different drivers, but the base code is the same). Hence on competing hardware they should run more or less the same. One can edge out the other, but to cause disparity, via specific features does not seem the best way to do it..

And AMD's attempt to offer similar technologies open source , means, it will work on NVIDIA too

PS: I use nvidia , I use it primarily because of lower power consumption

Anykeyer
12-16-2015, 09:04 PM
You realise nvidia helps Ubisoft with porting AC games to PC? And not just by adding GW extras.
So you suggest Ubisoft should develop similar tech on its own? Because otherwise it would be a downgrade for everyone. I really doubt it would be ecomically feasible, and there is no guarantee it wouldnt end up running better on nvidia's hardware anyway.

RVSage
12-16-2015, 11:03 PM
You realise nvidia helps Ubisoft with porting AC games to PC? And not just by adding GW extras.
So you suggest Ubisoft should develop similar tech on its own? Because otherwise it would be a downgrade for everyone. I really doubt it would be ecomically feasible, and there is no guarantee it wouldnt end up running better on nvidia's hardware anyway.

Totally agree there are economics involved. And NVIDIA's help only extends to gamework features (i.e offer the Black Box API and driver support). It is very highly unlikely they would help with the general PC port. And Ubisoft already has similar tech of their own, AO called SSBC. And I also know they have a custom AA of their own, which they use in many console versions. They could improve on them, or try the newer AMD open source offering. Historically i like tressfx. The newer shadows from AMD, I cannot comment on , because no game implements, them.

The way I see it,
1. Either NVIDIA should help optimize gamework features for AMD (Which is very highly unlikely)
2. Or NVIDIA should make the gameworks feature non-black-box to game developers atleast and have them optimize for AMD
3. Or a game developer , like Ubisoft should look for more open options, which they do have as I stated above

My whole point is people should get what they pay for. Consumers should not be affected by their GPU competition. Rather consumers should benefit from competition. NVIDIA's strength in not gameworks, it is their more efficient architecture and better performance per watt, which AMD is trying to catch up.

Anyway, I do not want to beat around the bush. This is my take on the issue. And of course everyone has their opinions and views on this. And from the poll , I do get people do not want it go. This is my suggestion to Ubisoft, whether they take it or not is up to them.

Anykeyer
12-17-2015, 01:15 PM
Every TWIMTBP title gets help through its entire development. It goes far beyond giving GW tools. In fact GW integration is often a form of "payment" to nvidia for their help.

RVSage
12-17-2015, 11:27 PM
Every TWIMTBP title gets help through its entire development. It goes far beyond giving GW tools. In fact GW integration is often a form of "payment" to nvidia for their help.

Oh , that's news to me. If that's the case, I guess, the probability of them considering other options is going to be less.