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chris455
03-04-2004, 02:58 PM
I was flying QMB against a Ki-84 in a P-38L.
I blew him up (a rare occurence)at point blank range and the force of the explosion blew my port engine OFF, I mean it was GONE. The entire engine nacelle.

Imagine my surprise when I was able to continue flying @ 350KpH with only slight left aileron pressure to counteract the yaw effects of the remaining engine.

I know the P-38 could fly on one engine, but I would tend to think a MISSING engine would create more handling problems then I encountered.

I still LOVE the P-38, and AEP!!!
Thanks Oleg-

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

chris455
03-04-2004, 02:58 PM
I was flying QMB against a Ki-84 in a P-38L.
I blew him up (a rare occurence)at point blank range and the force of the explosion blew my port engine OFF, I mean it was GONE. The entire engine nacelle.

Imagine my surprise when I was able to continue flying @ 350KpH with only slight left aileron pressure to counteract the yaw effects of the remaining engine.

I know the P-38 could fly on one engine, but I would tend to think a MISSING engine would create more handling problems then I encountered.

I still LOVE the P-38, and AEP!!!
Thanks Oleg-

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

Zen--
03-04-2004, 03:26 PM
I had a rough headon against a spit while flying the P38 today...not sure whether it was gunfire or a clipped rudder from the spit, but the P38 lost the front section of the engine...the prop, the spinner and the first 30% of the nacelle. It looked like it was shorn completely off and there were bits of jagged metal hanging off it.

I was amazed...first off that the 38 was still flying and second off at the detail modelled. The DM is well done I think and the plane is superb.


Thanks Maddox/1C and Gibbage for including it in game :)

-Zen-

chris455
03-04-2004, 03:34 PM
I agree Zen,
considering that 1 or 2 bulet holes in the wing will, for many planes, cause significant changes in their handling qualities, did you notice that the Lightning was remarkably docile when it lost the nacelle?
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

WhiskeyRiver
03-04-2004, 06:23 PM
by all accounts the P-38 was easy to fly on one engine. I think a lot had to do with the twin rudders(the rudder behind the good engine had the prop blast blowing over it)

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

Cragger
03-04-2004, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
by all accounts the P-38 was easy to fly on one engine. I think a lot had to do with the twin rudders(the rudder behind the good engine had the prop blast blowing over it)

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Engine out flight characteristics are completely different than those of when the nacelle housing the engine has been sheared off and a giant funnel open to the airflow is now present. In reality the pilot would probably have to bail because of the yaw from the induced drag let alone the wing damage that would occur from such destruction.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.png

Copperhead310th
03-04-2004, 11:42 PM
my problem is not so much the damage model as it is the flight model.

waaaaaaayyyyy off In MY OPINION.
& before you go spouting off "your not flying it right you have to B&Z in US planes" may i remind every one of Bongs kills in the PTO with the P-38 & that id COULD turn with the Zeeks.

the Flight model for the p-38 was msitanenly given to the Bf-109Z! lol

here. try this. got fly the p-38's for a 1/2 an hour & the go fly the 109Z for a 1/2 an hour & you'll see what i mean.

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LeLv28_Masi
03-05-2004, 12:30 AM
And every US advice I have read about Zekes was do not dogfight with them.

You can turn with Zekes in high speeds (Zeke was sluggish in high speeds), but if you think you can T&B with Zekes then you have misunderstood somethinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

WhiskeyRiver
03-05-2004, 12:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cragger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
by all accounts the P-38 was easy to fly on one engine. I think a lot had to do with the twin rudders(the rudder behind the good engine had the prop blast blowing over it)

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Engine out flight characteristics are completely different than those of when the nacelle housing the engine has been sheared off and a giant funnel open to the airflow is now present. In reality the pilot would probably have to bail because of the yaw from the induced drag let alone the wing damage that would occur from such destruction.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.png <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm guess that the engine falling off is a visual effect only. I've never heard any accounts from WW2 describing the entire engine of any aircraft falling completely off the airframe

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

03-05-2004, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>waaaaaaayyyyy off In MY OPINION.
& before you go spouting off "your not flying it right you have to B&Z in US planes" may i remind every one of Bongs kills in the PTO with the P-38 & that id COULD turn with the Zeeks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just how do you assume that is possible, when everything about what physics have to offer in reality, suggests that the A6M is clearly the winner in turning contests?

Did Bong outturn the Zeke momentarily because the circumstances, not to mention his personal skill, allowed him to?

Or was he able to do that because the twin engined monstrosity which is heavier and larger than the P-47, was able to turn like a Ki-43 in real life?

My guess is the former. Is your guess the latter? Because that definately seems to be what you are going at.

Don't step over the complaint/whine border. Once you go there, you're branded for life, so becareful of what you say in these forums.

WWMaxGunz
03-05-2004, 05:13 AM
If the P-38 came in with enough smash then for a while it could make the tighter turn. Also at high enough speed the P-38 might turn with or better, but at very high speed. Planes that turn well at low speeds often do not turn well at high speeds. In fact they often don't do anything well at high speeds. If you really push hard turns then it becomes a matter of which pilot can take the G's better anyway. Perhaps Richard was a tough guy or had a technique to hold off greying or blacking out, or both?

I was reading at the AVG homepage accounts of how they fought in the FAQ's. It said the Japanese Zeros had very large ailerons. He called them barn doors and said while they were excellent at low speeds, they were weak (hard to deflect?) at high speeds so the Tigers would turn while losing alt to keep speed up when they needed to get away. Those guys flew in the Pacific as US after they flew over China, so they did know about Zeroes.

PIlots accounts leave things out that to them are only natural and don't need explaining. Later on people fill those spaces with assumptions or just ignore them altogether. It is not good to go by accounts execpt where the accounts are very specific and very detailed. Even then a pilot can be wrong, even an ace.


Neal

p1ngu666
03-05-2004, 07:47 AM
i find some wing damage and its a REAL handful, infact i couldnt control it till other wing got damaged and evened it out

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-05-2004, 04:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
I'm guess that the engine falling off is a visual effect only. I've never heard any accounts from WW2 describing the entire engine of any aircraft falling completely off the airframe

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can't really quote anything but I have heard of entire engines falling off of the plane but leaving the rest of it intact. Its not something that would happen all the time but I'm sure I've read or seen some pictures.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

necrobaron
03-05-2004, 04:59 PM
There's a famous pic of a A-20(I think) that actually shows it's engine flying off.

"Not all who wander are lost."

necrobaron
03-05-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:

I'm guess that the engine falling off is a visual effect only. I've never heard any accounts from WW2 describing the entire engine of any aircraft falling completely off the airframe

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I was wrong. It was a B-26 I was referring to:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/b26-003.jpg

"Not all who wander are lost."

necrobaron
03-05-2004, 05:11 PM
Double post.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Cragger
03-05-2004, 05:34 PM
That B-26 also went in shortly after that picture.

http://redspar.com/redrogue/cragger_sig.png

chris455
03-05-2004, 09:28 PM
Sad picture. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

necrobaron
03-05-2004, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by chris455:
Sad picture. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I always get a funny feeling looking at pics like that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Bearcat99
03-06-2004, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Copperhead310th:
my problem is not so much the damage model as it is the flight model.

waaaaaaayyyyy off In MY OPINION.
& before you go spouting off "your not flying it right you have to B&Z in US planes" may i remind every one of Bongs kills in the PTO with the P-38 & that id COULD turn with the Zeeks.

the Flight model for the p-38 was msitanenly given to the Bf-109Z! lol

here. try this. got fly the p-38's for a 1/2 an hour & the go fly the 109Z for a 1/2 an hour & you'll see what i mean.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
_http://www.members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Copper.... I think even with the P-40s the general doctrine was to NEVER get in a turnfight with the Zeros... B&Z was the way most of the Pacific aces got thier kills...especially in the beginning when they had te P-40s, P-39s, and P-38s..... before the Cats really came off... and even with the Cats..B &Z was the way to go. Read some of the Osprey books on P-38 Aces of the PTO.... you will be amazed at what the P-38 could take.. I think a lot of it had to do with airspeed... below a certain speed it was almost certain death... but if you were goinf fast enough and were high enough you could limp back home on the one nacelle.. as long as the entire nacelle wasnt gone... I took a hit online the other night from a 108 and I was in a turn and never could recover control.......

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chris455
03-06-2004, 12:15 PM
You can outturn a Ki-84 in the L model (ace AI only) using the Fowler flaps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-06-2004, 02:07 PM
I don't have AEP yet but does the P-38 have a superior turn ability at high speed like the P-47? If so, then this is definately where US pilots were using their better high speed manuverability against Japanese planes that were also in a similar speed range and therefore vulnerable. As soon as the Japanese plane gets into a solid turn its speed will decrease and its turn rate will tighten substantially....but...in those crucial seconds the Japanese plane can be easily out turned by a faster American plane. This was the case for the Hellcat, the Corsair, the P-47, and presumably the P-38...and I do see this with the P-47 (it can really solidlyy turn at 500kph and higher).

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Korolov
03-06-2004, 04:06 PM
Around the 500kmh or so range is where the P-38 will outturn the Zeke. Any faster and compressability becomes too much of a problem, which starts to hit at about 600kmh or so.

But in the case of the Zeke, no point to turning with it - so damn slow you can just hit and run to your heart's content.

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chris455
03-06-2004, 06:09 PM
What Korolov said.
But I will add, that the L model P-38, with it's Fowler flaps, will outturn the Ki-84 in about 3-4 times around the plate, then you've got nose position on him. I have done this against the AI (ace setting) I am reasonably certain it would be difficult, if not impossible, to duplicate versus a human. But it does turn like Hell.
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

RavagerOCHW
03-07-2004, 10:08 AM
Are the fowler flaps the normal flaps at combat setting or the dive flaps/brakes? Sorry for the stupid question http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif(

Gibbage1
03-07-2004, 02:35 PM
The fowler flaps is the type of flaps on the P-38 and how its deployed.

Standard flaps have 1 hindge and just swing down. Fowler flaps extend back and down, increasing the wing area with less drag and are much more efficiant. You see fowler flaps on all military and comercial aircraft today, were the standard flaps are only used on small private aircraft because they are more simple, cheaper, and easier to maintain.

Gib