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Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 12:51 AM
Just something that popped into my mind. I keep seeing everyone saying that they like Evie, that she's amazing, better than Jacob...etc, but I really thought she was bland. That's not to say I liked Jacob any better, I really thought both were very bland and uninspired, but apparently everyone likes Evie. I'm only curious to see people discussing their views.

Ichrukia56
12-04-2015, 12:57 AM
i think its because she respects all of the diehard AC fans who love the lore and story that this series is know for, that and she is also awesome :)

phoenix-force411
12-04-2015, 01:05 AM
You and I both. I am still questioning that as well. I actually really like Jacob's character more. I don't really like assassins that are too committed to the creed.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 01:06 AM
i think its because she respects all of the diehard AC fans who love the lore and story that this series is know for, that and she is also awesome :)
Well, why is she awesome? Also, maybe I look at it differently, but how does she respect diehard fans who are in for the story and lore? I don't understand this part.


You and I both. I am still questioning that as well. I actually really like Jacob's character more. I don't really like assassins that are too committed to the creed.
I thought Jacob was okay, at least he had a more concise character arc, but yeah. I just think Evie was sort of....I dunno...really, there is nothing to her at all. Maybe I'm too dumb or too cynical now, but I much preferred Arno to Jacob and Evie.

D.I.D.
12-04-2015, 01:12 AM
Mainly like her appearance, tbh. Clothes are the best in the series. And she's not Jacob, so of the two I wanted to spend time with her. I don't think she's positively great for identifiable reasons, but she's not wrong in any way.

Bear in mind that I'm still waiting for an assassin who I can fully hold up and say, "THIS one", but there are lots that are similarly good. I put her alongside Aveline, Adéwale, and Edward but she edges them out because she has a better wardrobe.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 01:18 AM
Mainly like her appearance, tbh. Clothes are the best in the series. And she's not Jacob, so of the two I wanted to spend time with her. I don't think she's positively great for identifiable reasons, but she's not wrong in any way.

I guess that makes sense. Jacob can be an unbearable bloke, at times. Though I tend to think that having nothing wrong is not necessarily a good thing, just makes for a blank slate with nothing on it.

phoenix-force411
12-04-2015, 01:19 AM
I thought Jacob was okay, at least he had a more concise character arc, but yeah. I just think Evie was sort of....I dunno...really, there is nothing to her at all. Maybe I'm too dumb or too cynical now, but I much preferred Arno to Jacob and Evie.

I do like Arno's character, but maybe less than I do like Jacob. I can't really blame Arno's character for having little story due to development. Arno's character was very different in the E3 Demo, because he actually sounded like he was committed to the creed, but the final product said otherwise. As for Elise, I think you'd have to read the Unity novel to even start liking Elise.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 01:22 AM
I do like Arno's character, but maybe less than I do like Jacob. I can't really blame Arno's character for having little story due to development. Arno's character was very different in the E3 Demo, because he actually sounded like he was committed to the creed, but the final product said otherwise. As for Elise, I think you'd have to read the Unity novel to even start liking Elise.
I think Unity was going for portraying Arno as a genuinely good chap who would lend a hand to anyone in need. From the side missions, I thought he was someone who legitimately felt sorry for the state of France and wanted to help its suffering people and deliver Justice and this is why he butted heads with the council so much. The Assassins in Unity were far less concerned for people than their other counterparts.

Unfortunately, this was botched a bit because the game was short and they wanted the romance between Arno and Elise to take center stage and so we got Unity. But this isnt about Arno, so lets end it here before VestigialLama skins me alive, lol.

SixKeys
12-04-2015, 02:15 AM
1) She has a great fashion sense
2) She has witty banter with her brother
3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)
5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
6) She favors stealth, that automatically makes her cool
7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.

RVSage
12-04-2015, 02:35 AM
1) She has a great fashion sense
2) She has witty banter with her brother
3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)
5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
6) She favors stealth, that automatically makes her cool
7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.

This I guess, is the best answer to your question M. the points are very valid

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2015, 03:21 AM
Just something that popped into my mind. I keep seeing everyone saying that they like Evie, that she's amazing, better than Jacob...etc, but I really thought she was bland. That's not to say I liked Jacob any better, I really thought both were very bland and uninspired, but apparently everyone likes Evie. I'm only curious to see people discussing their views.

To me there's a lot of hypocrisy. I mean Connor had more personality than Evie Frye but the minute you try to point out the issue of everyone going after a non-white AAA hero and everyone gets huffy. Now we have Dame Evie Frye and the main reason everyone relates to her is that she looks and plays like "The Ideal Female Protagonist" (i.e. the one who is not as offensive as all the other attempts at female characters in games) even if she has 2 out of the 7 Assassinations, has no real drive and her entire arc is about her relationship with men (Dead Daddy, Live Brother, Live Boyfriend). Sure she passes the Bechdel test with Clara O'Dea, Florence Nightingale, train operator, Queen Victoria but so what.


I think Unity was going for portraying Arno as a genuinely good chap who would lend a hand to anyone in need. From the side missions, I thought he was someone who legitimately felt sorry for the state of France and wanted to help its suffering people and deliver Justice and this is why he butted heads with the council so much. The Assassins in Unity were far less concerned for people than their other counterparts.

The thing is the Assassins in both UNITY and SYNDICATE really don't care about the people at all. It feels like they are working on entirely different principles than the Assassins we know from AC1 to Black Flag. None of the Assassins feel like characters from a historical period, neither Arno, nor Jacob nor Evie. Their entire identity comes from the AvT conflict rather than actual social issues, the whole story is tied to them killing Templars and nothing else.

Altair is obviously an exception since AC1 is set in a time and place when the Assassins actually did exist. But Ezio was a Renaissance aristocrat, Connor was a Mohawk whose land was encroached upon, Edward was a peasant turned pirate. Those characters were primarily determined by their historical and social era. The games also was more about that time and place and the AvT was the metaphor used to help us play and understand that conflict. Unity and Syndicate elevates the AvT over the historical element. Jacob and Evie aren't poor smalltowners who come to London to seek opportunities, they are middle-class pampered snots who become Assassins as a lark.


But this isnt about Arno, so lets end it here before VestigialLama skins me alive, lol.

I am in a forgiving mood so I will let this go. The fact is seen objectively in terms of the context, Arno is a psychopathic right-wing royalist. If that character was in Berlin in the 30s, he'd be supporting Hitler.

Namikaze_17
12-04-2015, 04:16 AM
I've yet to find any thread or article that thoroughly goes into why she's liked; so with that, I can't help but denounce that she really isn't great in the first place - she only serves as a convenience to not be her brother, and the vision most people hold of a "true assassin". She's only seen as "refreshing" due to Jacob suffering from the 'Ezio Stigma' around him, which automatically makes her seem favorable by default; all while considering that she hardly goes through much as a character herself.

She's an ideal, and that simply makes her boring to me.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 04:19 AM
2) She has witty banter with her brother
Eh, I didn't think it was special. Nothing still beats Haytham/Connor banter or even Haytham/Ziio banter. That was gold.


3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)

I don't think that's sexist. There's a lot of historical data about women in history who used their feminine qualities to get what they wanted. Needless to say, Aveline only used the "lady" persona to blend in and the whole seduction mechanic was barely used.


5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
Well, I guess this is only good because Jacob is there.


7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.
Now THAT is a good point. I like that.


To me there's a lot of hypocrisy. I mean Connor had more personality than Evie Frye but the minute you try to point out the issue of everyone going after a non-white AAA hero and everyone gets huffy. Now we have Dame Evie Frye and the main reason everyone relates to her is that she looks and plays like "The Ideal Female Protagonist" (i.e. the one who is not as offensive as all the other attempts at female characters in games) even if she has 2 out of the 7 Assassinations, has no real drive and her entire arc is about her relationship with men (Dead Daddy, Live Brother, Live Boyfriend). Sure she passes the Bechdel test with Clara O'Dea, Florence Nightingale, train operator, Queen Victoria but so what.
Yeah, I was kind of hoping I'd get more substantial reasons other than dress and her being a strategist (Among other things that only stand out because of Jacob), but to each their own.


The thing is the Assassins in both UNITY and SYNDICATE really don't care about the people at all. It feels like they are working on entirely different principles than the Assassins we know from AC1 to Black Flag. None of the Assassins feel like characters from a historical period, neither Arno, nor Jacob nor Evie. Their entire identity comes from the AvT conflict rather than actual social issues, the whole story is tied to them killing Templars and nothing else.

Altair is obviously an exception since AC1 is set in a time and place when the Assassins actually did exist. But Ezio was a Renaissance aristocrat, Connor was a Mohawk whose land was encroached upon, Edward was a peasant turned pirate. Those characters were primarily determined by their historical and social era. The games also was more about that time and place and the AvT was the metaphor used to help us play and understand that conflict. Unity and Syndicate elevates the AvT over the historical element. Jacob and Evie aren't poor smalltowners who come to London to seek opportunities, they are middle-class pampered snots who become Assassins as a lark.
Yeah, it doesnt feel like the new Assassins have any ground to stand on when it comes to the world they inhabit. There's nothing really that substantially connects them to their universes. I think that's a result of the complaints about "Hurr durr Connur and Edwood are not reall azzazzinz"


I am in a forgiving mood so I will let this go. The fact is seen objectively in terms of the context, Arno is a psychopathic right-wing royalist. If that character was in Berlin in the 30s, he'd be supporting Hitler.
Agree to disagree :p

Ichrukia56
12-04-2015, 04:37 AM
1) She has a great fashion sense
2) She has witty banter with her brother
3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)
5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
6) She favors stealth, that automatically makes her cool
7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.

What she said :)

ERICATHERINE
12-04-2015, 05:07 AM
Just something that popped into my mind. I keep seeing everyone saying that they like Evie, that she's amazing, better than Jacob...etc, but I really thought she was bland. That's not to say I liked Jacob any better, I really thought both were very bland and uninspired, but apparently everyone likes Evie. I'm only curious to see people discussing their views.

I think Evie and Jacob are in my top 2 of the character we had the opportunity to control that I like the most, because they remember me of me and my twin brother.

1) My brother always act as a complete bafoon and I think Jacob is as funny as my brother that always find a way to make me laugh. (Yes I know Evie don't find him as funny as I think Jacob is)

2) Just like me, Evie is more preocupied with the pieces of eden.

3) like the 2 of them lives in the same train, the 2 of us lives in the same house.

4) like my brother, Jacob is a very muscular men.

5) like Evie, I always come up with good plans that works to undo what my brother did wrong. (I could tell you about my most brilliant plan now, but I prefer to wait for someone to ask me about it)

And finaly, but more importantly, 6) Evie and Jacob are twins just like Éric and me.

^-^

RA503
12-04-2015, 05:16 AM
For those guys , did you know that someone can likes both Connor and Evie right ?

I likes Eve because of all things Sixkeys said and because is cool likes something that is not bashed by jornalists some time,Evie is a character that you can like without feel ashamed...

ERICATHERINE
12-04-2015, 05:18 AM
For those guys , did you know that someone can likes both Connor and Evie right ?

That's my case. ^-^

Wolfmeister1010
12-04-2015, 06:42 AM
Evie really YELLS in combat, unlike Jacob. It's pretty badass.


I like playing as Jacob better though. Mostly because of the outfits I guess.

LoyalACFan
12-04-2015, 09:01 AM
I like her. She's not like OMG BEST CHARACTER EVER material but she's fairly unique in this series; a pretty grounded character with intellectual interests, who's honestly a bit of a nerd, geeking out over Assassin lore and whatnot, and that makes her endearing because it's relatable to us as fans. She feels like an actual person rather than an archetype; you might say that's "bland" but hey, most people are bland; it's okay to have someone like that as a protagonist now and then. At any rate she was a refreshing change of pace from the "brash, confident young dude" model (which is especially nice since her brother is the extreme embodiment of that stereotype). Plus she doesn't have her tits hanging out 24/7 which is more than can be said for most female VG leads.


I like playing as Jacob better though. Mostly because of the outfits I guess.

Jacob's top hat is like 99% of the reason I play as him.

ModernWaffle
12-04-2015, 12:52 PM
I like her. She's not like OMG BEST CHARACTER EVER material but she's fairly unique in this series; a pretty grounded character with intellectual interests, who's honestly a bit of a nerd, geeking out over Assassin lore and whatnot, and that makes her endearing because it's relatable to us as fans. She feels like an actual person rather than an archetype; you might say that's "bland" but hey, most people are bland; it's okay to have someone like that as a protagonist now and then. At any rate she was a refreshing change of pace from the "brash, confident young dude" model (which is especially nice since her brother is the extreme embodiment of that stereotype). Plus she doesn't have her tits hanging out 24/7 which is more than can be said for most female VG leads.

Completely agree. Although she has some generic traits I still like her character since she has a sense of decency; when she talks to other characters she treats them with a sort of mutual respect (with the exception of Jacob, though this is clearly due to their sibling relationship rather than any outward show of hostility) and her resolve to help London comes across as more genuine to that of Jacob as she tries to stop the Templars through minimal conflict in the city - in other words I would trust her leadership in liberating London but not Jacob's.



but I much preferred Arno to Jacob and Evie.

I think Arno is more complicated as a character to either Jacob or Evie but this is not the sole factor which makes me like a character. Jacob and Arno come across as people who would be ready to wrong people if it suited their needs showing a lack of respect to anyone but themselves. It doesn't help that neither seem to change that much by the end of their respective games.

In comparison, Connor, Shay and Evie are the opposite - they would not be hostile / disrespectful to others without a proper reason and this makes them more human and relatable. They are also people who would be more open to questioning their own views and appreciating their flaws.

Altair and Ezio are in between. They both start off as more selfish but express a proper change by the end of their arcs hence why they end up likeable as well.

Saith-Masu
12-04-2015, 12:59 PM
Her voice is so beautiful;)
And she is kinda adorable.
She is just a well refined character and the first real woman as a main protagonist in an AC Game ( Liberation aside).

AdrianJacek
12-04-2015, 01:10 PM
Eh, I didn't think it was special. Nothing still beats Haytham/Connor banter or even Haytham/Ziio banter. That was gold.

"Me Haytham! I come in peace!"
"Why. Are. You. Speaking. So. Slow?"

"We need to get out of here!"
"You don't say..."

"Oh. No. Don't do that. There's no way of knowing what's on the other siiiii–"
...
" –iiiiide!"

Danny_rx7
12-04-2015, 02:14 PM
Victoria Atkin sexy voice/accent <3

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2015, 02:41 PM
Yeah, I was kind of hoping I'd get more substantial reasons other than dress and her being a strategist (Among other things that only stand out because of Jacob), but to each their own.

I am not sure what Ubisoft's definition of strategist is. Strategy in military terms is defining overall goals and focusing everything on achieving it. Tactics are about how you achieve a particular target. Strategy is Macro, Tactics is Micro. It's possibly to lose tactically but win strategically. Like in AC1, at the beginning, Altair had a tactical defeat at the hands of Robert de Sable. Sable killed one Assassin, decommissioned another, and crippled a third but thanks to Malik, the Assassins secured the Apple so it was a strategic victory even if it was a heavy loss and it was mostly by luck anyway.

Evie Frye isn't strategic or tactical at all. She basically plays the same as Jacob. Jacob is very stealthy too and he gets most of the blackbox missions. So again this whole strategy fetish is something the marketing have made up but isn't something supported by gameplay or story. Jacob is a better tactician than Evie. He knows what are the actions you need to get to the Templars, he's a very good tactician but a poor strategist. Jacob knows who to target and how to get inside and up close but he doesn't have any grand strategy or end-goal. So both the Frye twins in Syndicate essentially just stumble around London really.

About the only times being an Assassin felt strategic was Brotherhood, where Ezio is the man with the plan, ideas and schemes. And again that was mostly in cutscenes rather than gameplay. AC1 had the most tactical gameplay. But the overall strategy was decided by Al Mualim and thr Rafiqs. Connor and Edward were less so. The latter was a treasure hunter who basically d-cked around the Caribbean searching for the Sage and stumbled around the Assassins.


Yeah, it doesnt feel like the new Assassins have any ground to stand on when it comes to the world they inhabit. There's nothing really that substantially connects them to their universes. I think that's a result of the complaints about "Hurr durr Connur and Edwood are not reall azzazzinz"

Which is absurd because the only real Assassin is Altair. Ezio Trilogy was essentially Renaissance Patron of the Arts Simulator. You are a Renaissance Prince, you live the fantasy of indulging in righteous vendettas against other Renaissance Princes, you get to renovate your town while everyone grovels at the feet of Ser Ezio, you have Renaissance authors and painters on your speed dial and fellow countesses are your "with benefits" types. You also command a private army, a vast banking network with which you acquire small shopowners and indulge in the fantasy of benevolent capitalism. Basically if Ezio was in Victorian London, he would be Crawford Starrick.

In other eras, Assassins have period appropriate jobs and identities. If you are a pirate there are certain experiences that might bring you to the Assassin side. Like Mary Reade is a woman who doesn't want to be a prostitute or a housewife, Adewale is a fugitive slave, Edward is a peasant with ambition and some conscience who is trying to find some ideals he can live up to. If you are a Native American there are certain experiences that might make you an Assassin so that leads to Connor. I mean what are the reasons why a spoiled French aristocrat joins the Assassins in Unity? What are the reasons why middle-class towndwellers and their kids join a murder-cult? In the first case, there is nothing in that social experience that leads him to the Assassins it's some manufactured family story, in the case of Syndicate, it's again family legacy and bull--it. So the Assassins are now a cult that you have to be born into or be part of already.

We all know Groucho Marx said, "I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member." I think keepign the historical context only makes the Assassins more real and meaningful.

Rohith_Kumar_Sp
12-04-2015, 02:46 PM
because there's been only one major female lead in the AC franchise besides aveline who no one played for the most part.

cawatrooper9
12-04-2015, 03:33 PM
I like Evie because she's a step in the right direction. She's certainly not the ideal female Assassin (after all, Jacob gets most of the good missions), but she's far better than nothing. Better yet, she's not sexualized, nor is she completely a Mary Sue (both Jacob and Evie were wrong- their best strategy was in dividing and conquering after all).

To be honest, I liked Evie less than I was hoping- but, like I suspect most people did, I liked the concept of her.

In fact, she couldn't have her own game. Neither could have Jacob. But Evie's level-headedness and Jacob's complete abandon make for a pretty acceptable pair of protagonists in my eyes.



In other eras, Assassins have period appropriate jobs and identities. If you are a pirate there are certain experiences that might bring you to the Assassin side. Like Mary Reade is a woman who doesn't want to be a prostitute or a housewife, Adewale is a fugitive slave, Edward is a peasant with ambition and some conscience who is trying to find some ideals he can live up to. If you are a Native American there are certain experiences that might make you an Assassin so that leads to Connor. I mean what are the reasons why a spoiled French aristocrat joins the Assassins in Unity? What are the reasons why middle-class towndwellers and their kids join a murder-cult? In the first case, there is nothing in that social experience that leads him to the Assassins it's some manufactured family story, in the case of Syndicate, it's again family legacy and bull--it. So the Assassins are now a cult that you have to be born into or be part of already.


Personally, I really like the sort of dual identities that the Assassins have, now. It gives each of them unique character and ambitions (or at least potential for those things).

Besides, historically, Altair really is the only real Assassin, given that he's the only character that's a part of the original order that actually existed. I mean, all of the protagonists are fictional, but Altair at least has the closest roots to real life individuals in the Assassins.

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2015, 05:32 PM
Personally, I really like the sort of dual identities that the Assassins have, now. It gives each of them unique character and ambitions (or at least potential for those things).

Besides, historically, Altair really is the only real Assassin, given that he's the only character that's a part of the original order that actually existed. I mean, all of the protagonists are fictional, but Altair at least has the closest roots to real life individuals in the Assassins.

The thing is I always saw the Assassins post-Crusades as a metaphor and not a real organization. I felt that in AC2-AC3-Black Flag, the idea of the developers was "Obviously there is no conspiracy organizations, no Assassins and Templars, but hey...they work as video game factions and we can use it to do historical games that we otherwise can't properly brand."

For me Assassin's Creed is fundamentally historical fiction, and the first civ and all the other stuff is just there to serve that. So to me the historical era is always the most important part of the character and story. Like in the earlier games, even if we have conspiracies and secret societies, most of the time we see events and actions as they did in recorded history. The historical revisionism was never to such a level that it overwhelmed everything. Like it's still more accurate than Pirates of the Caribbean or The Patriot.

I always thought that the point of the games was to spoof conspiracy theories showing how crazy and impossible that kind of all-powerful hold on history actually is. With Unity and Syndicate you have a complete change of attitude, what is unmistakably a dumbing down I think. There's none of that elegance and sophistication the earlier games had.

AeraLure
12-04-2015, 06:12 PM
1) She has a great fashion sense
2) She has witty banter with her brother
3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)
5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
6) She favors stealth, that automatically makes her cool
7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.

All of this. I haven't much to add except that I also really liked the voice actress and how that rounded out the character.

SixKeys
12-04-2015, 06:20 PM
Eh, I didn't think it was special. Nothing still beats Haytham/Connor banter or even Haytham/Ziio banter. That was gold.

Just because there has been good banter in the series before doesn't make this one invalid. I think Evie and Jacob are at least on the level of Haytham and Ziio, or Shaun and Rebecca. Haytham/Connor was gold, though.



I don't think that's sexist. There's a lot of historical data about women in history who used their feminine qualities to get what they wanted. Needless to say, Aveline only used the "lady" persona to blend in and the whole seduction mechanic was barely used.

Yes, it has been known to happen IRL but it's a trope that has survived and permeated even modern entertainment. In many movies and games women's superpower is to cry to get what they want or seduce a man to get him to lower his guard. It's like these writers think that makes them good characters because they have "agency". "She's a strong female character because she uses her womanly wiles!" Uhh, why can't she use her fists instead? Whereas we rarely see male characters using sex as a weapon (Ezio was actually one of the rare reversals with Lucrezia) or pretending to be weak and helpless so they can take advantage of a man. Even Mary Reed who was a badass female character had one moment where she slapped on make-up and acted like a weak and helpless girl to get what she wanted. She was a skilled assassin, I'm sure she could have fought or stalked her way through, but we had to be shown how "cunning" she was because that's what girls do, donchaknow. The fact that it's still so prevalent in modern entertainment makes it a harmful trope.

I love Evie precisely because nobody ever questions or draws attention to her capabilities as an assassin. I'm in sequence 6 and so far no character has gone: "Wow, you fight well for a girl" or "hey Jacob, your sister sure is hot". She's not treated as an object of men's desire and she doesn't get special treatment just because she's a woman. She doesn't hold big speeches about how nobody takes her seriously and how she wants to prove herself. Characters in the game simply act like it's a given that she and Jacob are equals. She's not a female assassin, she's just an assassin, period.


Well, I guess this is only good because Jacob is there.

No, I simply prefer strategic assassins. Even if Jacob wasn't in the game at all, I would still admire Evie's tendency to look before leaping.



Yeah, I was kind of hoping I'd get more substantial reasons other than dress and her being a strategist (Among other things that only stand out because of Jacob), but to each their own.

Excuse you, dress is a perfectly valid reason. ;)

Honestly, it's not like most of the series' protagonists have been any deeper. Altaïr was especially two-dimensional (before Revelations). Edward is probably the character with the most depth, the others are kind of flimsy. Which doesn't make them bad, just on the level of popcorn entertainment.

Sesheenku
12-04-2015, 06:28 PM
Just something that popped into my mind. I keep seeing everyone saying that they like Evie, that she's amazing, better than Jacob...etc, but I really thought she was bland. That's not to say I liked Jacob any better, I really thought both were very bland and uninspired, but apparently everyone likes Evie. I'm only curious to see people discussing their views.

Hah, I agree with you entirely and you know if I agree with you, you gotta be right.

They were extremely uninteresting, no motivation, no standout characteristic, just basic people on some random task for some reason that is never properly explained.

Even Arno had motivation as cliche as it was in this series.

SixKeys
12-04-2015, 06:37 PM
Hah, I agree with you entirely and you know if I agree with you, you gotta be right.

They were extremely uninteresting, no motivation, no standout characteristic, just basic people on some random task for some reason that is never properly explained.

Even Arno had motivation as cliche as it was in this series.

Why would they need special motivation beyond "we're assassins, let's fight some Templars"? We're following the lives of two assassins who have grown up in the Order, the first ones since Altaïr. This lifestyle is all they know. I like the fact that we're focusing on what they're like as characters, not just defined by outside circumstances.

GunnerGalactico
12-04-2015, 07:50 PM
1) She has a great fashion sense
2) She has witty banter with her brother
3) None of her assassin skills rely on sexist tropes like Aveline's magical seduction powers. Evie gets **** done without resorting to cheap tricks like fainting spells or fake tears.
4) She feels better in combat (srsly, it could all just be in my head but it feels like her movements are quicker)
5) She is the more strategic of the two, compared to Jacob's flying-by-the-seat-of-your-pants approach
6) She favors stealth, that automatically makes her cool
7) She's not over-sexualized nor an over-the-top "badass female warrior". She feels like she was written by someone who actually knows how to write women.


Yes, it has been known to happen IRL but it's a trope that has survived and permeated even modern entertainment. In many movies and games women's superpower is to cry to get what they want or seduce a man to get him to lower his guard. It's like these writers think that makes them good characters because they have "agency". "She's a strong female character because she uses her womanly wiles!" Uhh, why can't she use her fists instead? Whereas we rarely see male characters using sex as a weapon (Ezio was actually one of the rare reversals with Lucrezia) or pretending to be weak and helpless so they can take advantage of a man. Even Mary Reed who was a badass female character had one moment where she slapped on make-up and acted like a weak and helpless girl to get what she wanted. She was a skilled assassin, I'm sure she could have fought or stalked her way through, but we had to be shown how "cunning" she was because that's what girls do, donchaknow. The fact that it's still so prevalent in modern entertainment makes it a harmful trope.

I love Evie precisely because nobody ever questions or draws attention to her capabilities as an assassin. I'm in sequence 6 and so far no character has gone: "Wow, you fight well for a girl" or "hey Jacob, your sister sure is hot". She's not treated as an object of men's desire and she doesn't get special treatment just because she's a woman. She doesn't hold big speeches about how nobody takes her seriously and how she wants to prove herself. Characters in the game simply act like it's a given that she and Jacob are equals. She's not a female assassin, she's just an assassin, period.

Good answers!

http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Young-Jackie-Chan-Thumbs-Up-Smile-Gif.gif

D.I.D.
12-04-2015, 07:51 PM
Why would they need special motivation beyond "we're assassins, let's fight some Templars"? We're following the lives of two assassins who have grown up in the Order, the first ones since Altaïr. This lifestyle is all they know. I like the fact that we're focusing on what they're like as characters, not just defined by outside circumstances.

It was a little bit strange that they just did it with no sanction, given what the games have led us to believe about the organisation. It would be one thing if they were going to take Crawley, but to leave Crawley to take London is a strange thing to just go and blag.

No real complaints from me, either - I just wanted them to go to London with as little dallying as possible, and they did. It might have been a little smoother if their move to London was actually their dad's dying wish, but all they disagreed about was the timing (Evie: "Father would have wanted us to prepare, to go when we're more mature", Jacob: "Forget that, we're as ready as we'll ever be! Let's go while we're still young").

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2015, 07:56 PM
Why would they need special motivation beyond "we're assassins, let's fight some Templars"? We're following the lives of two assassins who have grown up in the Order, the first ones since Altaïr. This lifestyle is all they know. I like the fact that we're focusing on what they're like as characters, not just defined by outside circumstances.

All characters are shaped by outside circumstances. Hamlet wouldn't be Hamlet if he wasn't Prince of Denmark you know. Dracula has to be a Count, Batman has to be rich while Sherlock Holmes has to be British. Even V for Vendetta, also a story of a British character who goes on a revenge spree against government authority albeit in a sci-fi context. But even if we don't know that guy's name we know he comes from a solid place and has a story and motivation.

There has to be some reality otherwise they are just not believable. The Fryes basically go after Starrick because, "We hunt Templars!". That motivation made sense in AC1, because the Templars are physically an occupying army and a military force. Here the Templars are upper-middle class businessmen at best.

The Fryes are essentially kinetic cosplay art rather than assassins, their characters are not deeper than their costume design and silhouette on the box art. This is of course true of Arno as well I will admit, except he has a plausible relatable desire to have sex with that hot girl and dislike everyone who gets in the way of that happening.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 08:23 PM
This lifestyle is all they know. I like the fact that we're focusing on what they're like as characters, not just defined by outside circumstances.
Ironically, this whole character is only defined by the circumstance of her being an Assassin. Or at least, that's how I saw it. I think outside circumstances add depth to characters, else they, in my opinion, risk becoming parodies. Even Altair, who's the closest archetype to Evie, was not defined by him being an Assassin, no he was defined by his arrogance and pride and how that changed and molded him into a different person.



They were extremely uninteresting, no motivation, no standout characteristic, just basic people on some random task for some reason that is never properly explained.

Pretty much how I felt. I don't think Victoria did a bad job, she was great, but I think my problem is more with the writing and characterization.


Just because there has been good banter in the series before doesn't make this one invalid. I think Evie and Jacob are at least on the level of Haytham and Ziio, or Shaun and Rebecca. Haytham/Connor was gold, though.
Didn't say it made it invalid, I just said that compared to AC III's banter, Jacob and Evie are really meh.


Yes, it has been known to happen IRL but it's a trope that has survived and permeated even modern entertainment. In many movies and games women's superpower is to cry to get what they want or seduce a man to get him to lower his guard. It's like these writers think that makes them good characters because they have "agency". "She's a strong female character because she uses her womanly wiles!" Uhh, why can't she use her fists instead? Whereas we rarely see male characters using sex as a weapon (Ezio was actually one of the rare reversals with Lucrezia) or pretending to be weak and helpless so they can take advantage of a man. Even Mary Reed who was a badass female character had one moment where she slapped on make-up and acted like a weak and helpless girl to get what she wanted. She was a skilled assassin, I'm sure she could have fought or stalked her way through, but we had to be shown how "cunning" she was because that's what girls do, donchaknow. The fact that it's still so prevalent in modern entertainment makes it a harmful trope.

I love Evie precisely because nobody ever questions or draws attention to her capabilities as an assassin. I'm in sequence 6 and so far no character has gone: "Wow, you fight well for a girl" or "hey Jacob, your sister sure is hot". She's not treated as an object of men's desire and she doesn't get special treatment just because she's a woman. She doesn't hold big speeches about how nobody takes her seriously and how she wants to prove herself. Characters in the game simply act like it's a given that she and Jacob are equals. She's not a female assassin, she's just an assassin, period.
I don't see the logic. I personally don't see the problem in showing how women got around in real life history AND portraying them as capable badasses, like Aveline. We'll get nowhere with this discussion, so lets just agree to disagree.


No, I simply prefer strategic assassins. Even if Jacob wasn't in the game at all, I would still admire Evie's tendency to look before leaping.
I'm just saying what I feel, not what you or anyone else should feel. I mean, most of the Assassins were tacticians and strategists and I never really thought that stood out since it was a given.


Excuse you, dress is a perfectly valid reason. ;)
You misconstrue my disagreement with me saying that's invalid, I'm not saying that:p


Honestly, it's not like most of the series' protagonists have been any deeper. Altaïr was especially two-dimensional (before Revelations). Edward is probably the character with the most depth, the others are kind of flimsy. Which doesn't make them bad, just on the level of popcorn entertainment.
Ohohohoh no, that's just way too disagreeable. I even think Ezio had more depth than Evie, lol.




Personally, I really like the sort of dual identities that the Assassins have, now. It gives each of them unique character and ambitions (or at least potential for those things).
This might be just me, but I think this is the reason things like level headedness and being a strategist stand out.


I am not sure what Ubisoft's definition of strategist is. Strategy in military terms is defining overall goals and focusing everything on achieving it. Tactics are about how you achieve a particular target. Strategy is Macro, Tactics is Micro. It's possibly to lose tactically but win strategically. Like in AC1, at the beginning, Altair had a tactical defeat at the hands of Robert de Sable. Sable killed one Assassin, decommissioned another, and crippled a third but thanks to Malik, the Assassins secured the Apple so it was a strategic victory even if it was a heavy loss and it was mostly by luck anyway.

Evie Frye isn't strategic or tactical at all. She basically plays the same as Jacob. Jacob is very stealthy too and he gets most of the blackbox missions. So again this whole strategy fetish is something the marketing have made up but isn't something supported by gameplay or story. Jacob is a better tactician than Evie. He knows what are the actions you need to get to the Templars, he's a very good tactician but a poor strategist. Jacob knows who to target and how to get inside and up close but he doesn't have any grand strategy or end-goal. So both the Frye twins in Syndicate essentially just stumble around London really.

About the only times being an Assassin felt strategic was Brotherhood, where Ezio is the man with the plan, ideas and schemes. And again that was mostly in cutscenes rather than gameplay. AC1 had the most tactical gameplay. But the overall strategy was decided by Al Mualim and thr Rafiqs. Connor and Edward were less so. The latter was a treasure hunter who basically d-cked around the Caribbean searching for the Sage and stumbled around the Assassins.
I actually agree with that a lot. As much slack as people give Jacob for not being a "strategist", he's a brilliant tactician able to pinpoint an opportunity when it presents itself. Sure, he can be a bit more naive, evident by the times the Templars managed to use him for their gain, but he still managed to liberate London from Templar control while Evie spent her time looking for the shroud.


Which is absurd because the only real Assassin is Altair. Ezio Trilogy was essentially Renaissance Patron of the Arts Simulator. You are a Renaissance Prince, you live the fantasy of indulging in righteous vendettas against other Renaissance Princes, you get to renovate your town while everyone grovels at the feet of Ser Ezio, you have Renaissance authors and painters on your speed dial and fellow countesses are your "with benefits" types. You also command a private army, a vast banking network with which you acquire small shopowners and indulge in the fantasy of benevolent capitalism. Basically if Ezio was in Victorian London, he would be Crawford Starrick.

In other eras, Assassins have period appropriate jobs and identities. If you are a pirate there are certain experiences that might bring you to the Assassin side. Like Mary Reade is a woman who doesn't want to be a prostitute or a housewife, Adewale is a fugitive slave, Edward is a peasant with ambition and some conscience who is trying to find some ideals he can live up to. If you are a Native American there are certain experiences that might make you an Assassin so that leads to Connor. I mean what are the reasons why a spoiled French aristocrat joins the Assassins in Unity? What are the reasons why middle-class towndwellers and their kids join a murder-cult? In the first case, there is nothing in that social experience that leads him to the Assassins it's some manufactured family story, in the case of Syndicate, it's again family legacy and bull--it. So the Assassins are now a cult that you have to be born into or be part of already.

We all know Groucho Marx said, "I wouldn't want to be part of any club that would have me as a member." I think keepign the historical context only makes the Assassins more real and meaningful.
I think at this point, they've thrown consistency out of the window, and why not? Since when anything like that is brought up, the excuse is "Well, AC is not 100% accurate" or "There're POEs and diving into bales of hay and you're complaining about zis?". This is an expected outcome.


"Me Haytham! I come in peace!"
"Why. Are. You. Speaking. So. Slow?"

"We need to get out of here!"
"You don't say..."

"Oh. No. Don't do that. There's no way of knowing what's on the other siiiii–"
...
" –iiiiide!"
It was just brilliant.



And she is kinda adorable.
I honestly hate that. Why does every woman have to have the "adorable" features? What about other women with none such features? The game depicts female blighters with HUGE noses and scanted eyes, not features one would consider "cute", I guess, so go figure. Evie's concept art depicted her with much sharper features, and I wish they modeled her after Victoria Atkin, it would have been better, imo.


She is just a well refined character
How?


I like her. She's not like OMG BEST CHARACTER EVER material but she's fairly unique in this series; a pretty grounded character with intellectual interests, who's honestly a bit of a nerd, geeking out over Assassin lore and whatnot, and that makes her endearing because it's relatable to us as fans. She feels like an actual person rather than an archetype; you might say that's "bland" but hey, most people are bland; it's okay to have someone like that as a protagonist now and then. At any rate she was a refreshing change of pace from the "brash, confident young dude" model (which is especially nice since her brother is the extreme embodiment of that stereotype). Plus she doesn't have her tits hanging out 24/7 which is more than can be said for most female VG leads.

Pretty much the only thing I agree with from everyone is that she's not sexualized one bit. I dunno, maybe I just expected more or I just put more weight on narrative arcs. I thought that we didnt see enough different interactions with people other than Jacob. I mean, she only met Florence once and Clara once, never Darwin...etc, apart from side missions. I also don't relate with "geeking out" or being a nerd. I imagine any of the Assassins would geek out at Assassin lore, Ezio did it when he was 52 and I imagine Connor would too, but we just weren't shown that stuff.

Sorrosyss
12-04-2015, 09:07 PM
She does seem to have been widely well received. Honestly, I just think the character is highly likeable, and I feel Victoria Atkin is to be commended for her performance - not just in the voice acting, but her motion capture as well. She really brought the character to life.

I know some people have reacted saying "You just like her because of her gender!" Well no. We have had Aveline and Shao Jun previously, and I would not put either anywhere near the top of my favourite protagonist list. Both of them had glaring character issues, and as with several of the assassins were pretty naive in some of their stories. But what do I like about Evie? I think it is mainly that from the start we are already a master assassin. I really have got tired of playing the amateur assassin who has to slowly grow into the role. With Evie she was already established as an expert, and I really enjoyed her gameplay. Stealthing through sections with her knife throwing skills was really rewarding.

I adore her standard outfit as well. Ezio's ACR outfit was always my favourite of all the protagonists, and I love how Evie's has very similar colour tones with the dark grey and red highlights. Its not overtly sexualised, and with the decorative pattern work, Its honestly beautiful. I've never worn a costume to a convention, but Evie's is my number one choice for whenever I muster the courage to do so.

Many have compared her personality to Altair, and I can see the similarities in her attitude towards the Creed. It was just refreshing to get away from the brash character that we have been stuck with for so many games now, and have someone who takes being an assassin a little more seriously. Having said that, she still had a good deal of wit ("Smells like Jacob's cooking!") like her brother, but it was far more dry. She's down to earth, practical, and not quick to rush to her emotions.

For these reasons and more, she's my favourite assassin so far. I still love Edward though. Just not ... as much.

Assassin_M
12-04-2015, 09:27 PM
She does seem to have been widely well received. Honestly, I just think the character is highly likeable, and I feel Victoria Atkin is to be commended for her performance - not just in the voice acting, but her motion capture as well. She really brought the character to life.

I really had no qualms with the acting performance, I thought Victoria did a marvelous job and I'm looking forward to the big project that Jeffery Yohalem referred to with her.


I know some people have reacted saying "You just like her because of her gender!"
Honestly, it's just as valid as any other reason. If people can like her for her voice and outfits, i'd say you can liker her just for her gender.


We have had Aveline and Shao Jun previously, and I would not put either anywhere near the top of my favourite protagonist list.
I prefer Avline, but Shao Jun from the CC game is completely different from the one in Embers and that was off-putting.


I think it is mainly that from the start we are already a master assassin. I really have got tired of playing the amateur assassin who has to slowly grow into the role. With Evie she was already established as an expert
I agree that origin stories are now boring cliches, but what growth does Evie experience? For example, in AC I, ACB and ACR, we're already established Master Assassins, but, barring Brotherhood, the Assassins grow in different ways, other than going from initiate to master.


Many have compared her personality to Altair
It was mainly the devs who said that and just as they were glaringly wrong with comparing Arno to Ezio, they're glaringly wrong here too. Sometimes I think they just say these things to hopefully attract people to the new characters, even if they're nothing like Ezio or Altair. She's honestly more like Ezio, if anything.


and I can see the similarities in her attitude towards the Creed.
It was more of her attitude to her father's teachings that to the Creed. Regarding her attitude to the Creed, she's more like Achilles in that all she focuses about are the pieces of eden.


For these reasons and more, she's my favourite assassin so far. I still love Edward though. Just not ... as much.
Reading your review gave me more insight, thanks.

VestigialLlama4
12-04-2015, 09:33 PM
I actually agree with that a lot. As much slack as people give Jacob for not being a "strategist", he's a brilliant tactician able to pinpoint an opportunity when it presents itself. Sure, he can be a bit more naive, evident by the times the Templars managed to use him for their gain, but he still managed to liberate London from Templar control while Evie spent her time looking for the shroud.

The point of Syndicate is that Jacob is essentially right. Evie agrees with him that them coming to London was right, him forming the Rooks was right and so on. The thing is Jacob is reckless.

Evie in the cutscenes struck me as incompetent. I mean two times a Templar steals that necklace hanging around her neck (Lucy, Starrick). Miss Stealthy also creates a lot of noise, like in the Kenway mansion she gives away her position to the Blighters on the exit, and then Lucy Thorne sneaks on her behind her back. So the story doesn't give her a lot of chance to shine in my view.

That said I do like Evie mostly for the voicework and I like Jacob too but generally in Syndicate, I found them weak characters. I found the Templars of that game, Starrick and his crew more interesting and better written as characters, which is a first for the series weirdly enough.


I also don't relate with "geeking out" or being a nerd. I imagine any of the Assassins would geek out at Assassin lore, Ezio did it when he was 52 and I imagine Connor would too, but we just weren't shown that stuff.

Connor is a "bro", he loves ships, sailing and fighting and he loves treasure maps. Ezio is a man of culture, he likes art and literature. In revelations, when one of his apprentices mentions a Templar agent, the actress Lysistrata, Ezio says, "Like that play of Aristophanes". He also discusses Dante with Sofia Sartor, but of course there he's trying to hit on her so there is that. He's also a guy who likes painting and architecture based on side activities.

Edward Kenway is a peasant. Arno Dorian had some cultural education since he's shown reading some books in the Versailles scene. Jacob though is quasi-illiterate. So the Frye dynamic is basically Boys=Jocks, Girls=Nerds which is I don't know kind of reductive I think.

SixKeys
12-04-2015, 10:38 PM
Ironically, this whole character is only defined by the circumstance of her being an Assassin. Or at least, that's how I saw it. I think outside circumstances add depth to characters, else they, in my opinion, risk becoming parodies. Even Altair, who's the closest archetype to Evie, was not defined by him being an Assassin, no he was defined by his arrogance and pride and how that changed and molded him into a different person.

The way I see these two characters is as if they were like Ezio's recruits in ACB. All we knew about those people was that they wanted to help liberate Rome, that's it. In Project Legacy the writers went a little deeper, giving them real personalities. They still remained recruits whose main function was to serve as Ezio's henchmen, not super important in the grand scheme of things, but the PL writers came up with stories and personalities for them anyway. Jacob and Evie may not be destined to become mentors like Ezio or Connor, leaders of the entire brotherhood. They're just a couple of recruits doing their thing, with their own simple backstory and clashing views. I like that. I like that for once the game doesn't thrust a predictable revenge story upon its heroes and make the whole game about their rise to the ultimate position in the brotherhood. Jacob and Evie move among the common people, they are common people, playing by the common people's rules.

If Evie is defined by something other than being an assassin, I would say it's her relationship with her father. She sometimes shows hesitation because "it's not what father would have done". She's afraid of not measuring up to his expectations, of not being good enough. She can be a bit insecure but mostly hides it around her brother. She gets somewhat flustered around Henry Green, then tries to cover it up by acting professional. The way I see it, she wears a mask of seriousness and professionalism, scoffing at her brother's antics, but sometimes the mask cracks and she breaks into a mischievous grin. She feels like she needs to be the mature one since Jacob isn't, but secretly she doesn't always want to be. Like there's a weight on her shoulders to uphold the family name while Jacob couldn't care less (or at least, that's how she sees it).

That enough personality for you? :)


Didn't say it made it invalid, I just said that compared to AC III's banter, Jacob and Evie are really meh.

We'll just have to disagree then. I've loved every scene with the twins arguing so far.


Ohohohoh no, that's just way too disagreeable. I even think Ezio had more depth than Evie, lol.

Not having finished ACS yet, I can't really compare the two. I'm just saying it's not like AC has ever been known for its amazing characterization. Its primary focus is on other things and that's okay.


I actually agree with that a lot. As much slack as people give Jacob for not being a "strategist", he's a brilliant tactician able to pinpoint an opportunity when it presents itself. Sure, he can be a bit more naive, evident by the times the Templars managed to use him for their gain, but he still managed to liberate London from Templar control while Evie spent her time looking for the shroud.

You say that like Jacob was the only one doing the liberation while Evie was off doing other things. I play as Evie 99% of the time, so she's been doing all the liberating in my game. Both twins are nearly always together when starting a new series of quests, so they both get the same debriefing and then decide to do with that information what they wish.


Pretty much the only thing I agree with from everyone is that she's not sexualized one bit. I dunno, maybe I just expected more or I just put more weight on narrative arcs. I thought that we didnt see enough different interactions with people other than Jacob. I mean, she only met Florence once and Clara once, never Darwin...etc, apart from side missions. I also don't relate with "geeking out" or being a nerd. I imagine any of the Assassins would geek out at Assassin lore, Ezio did it when he was 52 and I imagine Connor would too, but we just weren't shown that stuff.

Huh? She met Darwin in every mission if you chose to play them as her. The only ally missions I've been doing with Jacob are the Marx missions.

D.I.D.
12-04-2015, 10:58 PM
Huh? She met Darwin in every mission if you chose to play them as her. The only ally missions I've been doing with Jacob are the Marx missions.

Sadly not. I played as Evie unless forced to be Jacob too, and the Darwin missions use Jacob. It's the story of the whole game, really - anything they really cared about is not Evie's domain, except one major mission that you'll see in time. There isn't the amount of pick-your-protag missions that we hoped there would be.

[edit] Ah, hang on, I'd thought some main missions were Darwin's because he appears in them, so I was thinking of things like the mission to break into the factory and sabotage the machines to kill everyone inside with gas which is strictly Jacob only. Still fits the pattern though - Darwin events big enough for the main story go to him, while she gets the scraps.

Assassin_M
12-05-2015, 01:37 AM
The way I see these two characters is as if they were like Ezio's recruits in ACB. All we knew about those people was that they wanted to help liberate Rome, that's it. In Project Legacy the writers went a little deeper, giving them real personalities. They still remained recruits whose main function was to serve as Ezio's henchmen, not super important in the grand scheme of things, but the PL writers came up with stories and personalities for them anyway. Jacob and Evie may not be destined to become mentors like Ezio or Connor, leaders of the entire brotherhood. They're just a couple of recruits doing their thing, with their own simple backstory and clashing views. I like that. I like that for once the game doesn't thrust a predictable revenge story upon its heroes and make the whole game about their rise to the ultimate position in the brotherhood. Jacob and Evie move among the common people, they are common people, playing by the common people's rules.
But I didn't even say that's what I wanted in my post, I didn't say that what makes them bad is that they're not important. Furthermore, Evie and Jacob are actually more in-line with the Altair, Ezio, Connor importance archetype. The common people who were "just another nobody" were Arno and Edward (until Syndicate effed that up). Evie and Jacob are a pretty big deal. They're the ones who single handedly destroyed the Templar structure that controlled London for over ONE HUNDRED years. How's that not important? How's that not legendary? The twins who took out the most powerful Templar branch in the world, Evie and Jacob.

My point was that the twins, particularly Evie, are not defined by anything other than the game's circumstances. Evie's arc revolves around a shoddy romance and there's not enough time to properly showcase her insecurities. That's what I'm saying. So what if she's a brilliant strategist? It's aesthetic, it doesn't appeal to me as something to like about a character. When I say I like Connor, I don't say "He was a hunter, a sailor and brilliant tactician". I say those things when arguing who's the better Assassin, not why I like Connor. Of course, I'm not saying your points are invalid, just that I don't agree with them. You can like Evie for whatever reason you want.


If Evie is defined by something other than being an assassin, I would say it's her relationship with her father. She sometimes shows hesitation because "it's not what father would have done". She's afraid of not measuring up to his expectations, of not being good enough. She can be a bit insecure but mostly hides it around her brother. She gets somewhat flustered around Henry Green, then tries to cover it up by acting professional. The way I see it, she wears a mask of seriousness and professionalism, scoffing at her brother's antics, but sometimes the mask cracks and she breaks into a mischievous grin. She feels like she needs to be the mature one since Jacob isn't, but secretly she doesn't always want to be. Like there's a weight on her shoulders to uphold the family name while Jacob couldn't care less (or at least, that's how she sees it).
Which is only ever rarely brought up. We properly divulge her relationship with Ethan very late into the story and the circumstances of how that happens do not exactly make room since the player is busy doing something else. Lets take her insecurity for example. Evie vehemently opposes Jacob's idea of creating the Rooks. Not once, not twice, but three times and that leads to a precursor of their big fight. Yet, in the next scene when we help the Clinkers, Evie's up there, taking charge and giving a speech about joining the fight against the Blighters. Errrr why? It was Jacob's idea and you didn't like it, so why are you up there? This could have been a great chance for that insecurity to subtly show.




That enough personality for you? :)
No need to get defensive, it's nice to be on the other side of this type of argument for once :p


Not having finished ACS yet, I can't really compare the two. I'm just saying it's not like AC has ever been known for its amazing characterization. Its primary focus is on other things and that's okay.
I disagree with that. I thought at times, AC entered the realm of epic storytelling with characters such as Edward, Altair and Connor. For that matter, thinking that characterization was never impressive, is not enough reason to ignore the problem entirely, at least to me.


You say that like Jacob was the only one doing the liberation while Evie was off doing other things. I play as Evie 99% of the time, so she's been doing all the liberating in my game. Both twins are nearly always together when starting a new series of quests, so they both get the same debriefing and then decide to do with that information what they wish.
I like to view it as they do all the missions together since they're ALWAYS together. They're there at the start of every series of missions, they're at the end of every series of missions, they're together after every gang war...etc. So taking that into account, and the fact that Jacob gets to do the important assassinations, I'd say Jacob was doing more damage to the Templars than Evie.


Huh? She met Darwin in every mission if you chose to play them as her. The only ally missions I've been doing with Jacob are the Marx missions.
That's why I said "aside from side missions" ;)

LoyalACFan
12-05-2015, 03:58 AM
I also don't relate with "geeking out" or being a nerd. I imagine any of the Assassins would geek out at Assassin lore, Ezio did it when he was 52 and I imagine Connor would too, but we just weren't shown that stuff.

Whether you identify with it or not, my point is that it's fun to see a character who geeks out over references to Assassin lore from the previous games, and I do think that it's something unique to Evie; Ezio had great respect for Altair, at least in later life, but he never went "EHRMAGERD IT'S ALTEIAR!!!" like Evie did at the Kenway mansion or the underground armor room thingy (still haven't looked for the music boxes). Connor and Arno didn't really seem to give a crap, and Edward certainly didn't.

I-Like-Pie45
12-05-2015, 04:14 AM
Whether you identify with it or not, my point is that it's fun to see a character who geeks out over references to Assassin lore from the previous games, and I do think that it's something unique to Evie; Ezio had great respect for Altair, at least in later life, but he never went "EHRMAGERD IT'S ALTEIAR!!!" like Evie did at the Kenway mansion or the underground armor room thingy (still haven't looked for the music boxes). Connor and Arno didn't really seem to give a crap, and Edward certainly didn't.

that is a narrative technique called manipulation of the target audience by including a blank slate character for them to project themselves onto to complement their power fantasy character (Jacob) - see how the only lore in Syndicate regarding past games features only the popular Assassins like Edward and Ezio, aka Ubisofts target audience. this way, even if somebody feels like they can't be jacob, they can still be someone who can be alongside jacob

it's like the kid in Iron Man 3, the kid in Schindler's List, or the one-note farmer boy in Star Wars, people who the audience can imagine themselves actually being amidst a sea of characters they want to be but can't really

Assassin_M
12-05-2015, 04:45 AM
My point is that it's fun to see a character who geeks out over references to Assassin lore from the previous games
And my point was that I disagree. Seriously, why is everyone so sensitive about this? :p


and I do think that it's something unique to Evie;

"EHRMAGERD IT'S ALTEIAR!!!" like Evie did at the Kenway mansion or the underground armor room thingy
Certainly didn't feel that way at the mansion. If anything, she seemed kind of snide at the mention of Edward.

At Reuge's vault...ehhhh...okay.


Connor and Arno didn't really seem to give a crap
Arno certainty not, but Connor did. He was pretty insistent on knowing stuff like who Achilles' originally outfit belonged to and who De La Tour was.

LoyalACFan
12-05-2015, 05:53 AM
And my point was that I disagree. Seriously, why is everyone so sensitive about this? :p

Not being sensitive; like I said, I like Evie alright but she's not one of my favorites. I just thought you weren't getting what I was saying; geeking out over past Assassin lore is a fresh twist that I think IS a unique and relatable trait of Evie's. You're saying that other Assassins have had that trait as well, which I don't think is the case.


Certainly didn't feel that way at the mansion. If anything, she seemed kind of snide at the mention of Edward.

Not when they went into the secret underground Assassin man cave.


Arno certainty not, but Connor did. He was pretty insistent on knowing stuff like who Achilles' originally outfit belonged to and who De La Tour was.

Eh, I dunno, Connor was way more focused on actually doing stuff versus learning about all the history and customs of the Brotherhood (I mean sure, he probably thought it was interesting and he took the lessons of the Creed to heart, but he was never vocally passionate about it). He wasn't exactly adamant about John de la Tour; he asked about him once, got a one sentence answer, and never asked again. Plus he never actually mentioned the Creed or any other Assassins by name.

And I noticed you're breaking your "no smileys" rule :rolleyes::p

I-Like-Pie45
12-05-2015, 05:58 AM
that is another narrative technique in writing called subtle metaphorical allusions vs. waiting for the hammer to fall. In certain situations, you have to decide which is the better tool to get your point across to the audience. Do you risk the audience missing the message, or do you risk alienating the audience with preachiness? With Evie it seems the writers went for the latter and it seems it worked. After the mixed receptions to Connor and Edward and Arno as Assassins, the writers wanted to make it really clear that these are Assassins in the assassinating game that people are playing.

Assassin_M
12-05-2015, 06:52 AM
And I noticed you're breaking your "no smileys" rule :rolleyes::p
Because I don't want my buddies to think I'm being aggressive :p

SixKeys
12-05-2015, 09:31 AM
But I didn't even say that's what I wanted in my post, I didn't say that what makes them bad is that they're not important. Furthermore, Evie and Jacob are actually more in-line with the Altair, Ezio, Connor importance archetype. The common people who were "just another nobody" were Arno and Edward (until Syndicate effed that up). Evie and Jacob are a pretty big deal. They're the ones who single handedly destroyed the Templar structure that controlled London for over ONE HUNDRED years. How's that not important? How's that not legendary? The twins who took out the most powerful Templar branch in the world, Evie and Jacob.

My point was that while I do think there's more to Evie than that, being defined by simply being an assassin isn't really a bad thing. People are often defined by their job or lifestyle. It may not be everything they are, but it does shape their personality a great deal. Look at Leonardo, the artist and inventor. Look at Bartolomeo, the soldier. Their characters were largely informed by their professions. Leonardo was excitable and fascinated by everything, Bartolomeo was proud and confrontational.



Which is only ever rarely brought up. We properly divulge her relationship with Ethan very late into the story and the circumstances of how that happens do not exactly make room since the player is busy doing something else. Lets take her insecurity for example. Evie vehemently opposes Jacob's idea of creating the Rooks. Not once, not twice, but three times and that leads to a precursor of their big fight. Yet, in the next scene when we help the Clinkers, Evie's up there, taking charge and giving a speech about joining the fight against the Blighters. Errrr why? It was Jacob's idea and you didn't like it, so why are you up there? This could have been a great chance for that insecurity to subtly show.

People read all kinds of things into Connor that aren't properly explored in the actual story, either. We see glimpses of who he's supposed to be, but it's the fault of the script if they never take that to its full potential. Same with Evie.

I will admit there are some odd moments like that in the game, that don't necessarily seem consistent with the characters' personalities. It's happened in every game so far, though, so I don't take Syndicate to task for it any more than I do those games. Sometimes these things are a result of too many chefs, each studio doing its own thing and not keeping up with how the whole balances out.



No need to get defensive, it's nice to be on the other side of this type of argument for once :p

I'm only defensive in the sense that I'm defending Evie's character. Not trying to be passive-aggressive or anything.



I disagree with that. I thought at times, AC entered the realm of epic storytelling with characters such as Edward, Altair and Connor. For that matter, thinking that characterization was never impressive, is not enough reason to ignore the problem entirely, at least to me.

Meh. You already know how I feel about Connor, and I still think Altaïr is very two-dimensional. Revelations gave him a bit more depth, but not much. He starts off as laughably cliché, saying things like "my way is better". When the change happens, it feels quite sudden. Not completely, but there is a clear moment in the game when his voice suddenly goes from stern to soft to signify the start of his transformation, and that moment comes pretty early. That could be read as being the voice actor's fault, though.
Edward is the only one with a truly believable, consistent character arc, with a lot of symbolism and nuance in his story. He doesn't just immediately go from "lol assassins" to "omgz yay assassins", we see the change progressing naturally through the events he witnesses.



I like to view it as they do all the missions together since they're ALWAYS together. They're there at the start of every series of missions, they're at the end of every series of missions, they're together after every gang war...etc. So taking that into account, and the fact that Jacob gets to do the important assassinations, I'd say Jacob was doing more damage to the Templars than Evie.

I have a hard time seeing it like that. If I play as Evie in almost every mission except the big assassinations, then it feels like she's been doing most of the work. She's the one taking down gang strongholds, she's the one liberating children, she's the one trying to gain the approval of Henry, Ned, Clara, Abberline, Darwins, ****ens and Marx. She's the one raiding Templar shipments and hunting their leaders. She's the one conducting all the gang wars after conquering boroughs. So all Jacob really does is form the Rooks and take down a few head Templars.


That's why I said "aside from side missions" ;)

Why should those be considered separately? They're just as much a part of the plot. Evie met Darwin, D*ckens et al several times, period.

Sesheenku
12-05-2015, 09:44 AM
Why would they need special motivation beyond "we're assassins, let's fight some Templars"? We're following the lives of two assassins who have grown up in the Order, the first ones since Altaïr. This lifestyle is all they know. I like the fact that we're focusing on what they're like as characters, not just defined by outside circumstances.

Because it's boring. They literally stand in the opening and are just like... Hey wanna liberate London? Hmmmm okay!

The hell is that?

It's not really relatable. Why are they doing that? Just because it's their job? Why do they continue to do said job?

This is never delved into, we know they have a dead assassins father, we know Jacob likes killing Templars and Evie likes hunting for artifacts. That's pretty much it.

You need motivation to get the player invested and "let's do this because it's what we do" isn't enough.

Nobody has to die, maybe it's a quest for enlightenment, maybe they just wanna be a hero, maybe they want money, power, glory, etc...

Something needs to be present so they can develop. For these two it would have been as easy as writing it so that they question why they do what they do and by the end of the game they make a decision on whether or not to keep doing it that shows personal growth.

If there's no development than the characters might as well be silent, the only thing that can carry the game from there is the game play.

Oh and btw, Altair was on a quest to regain his honor. So yeah his reason for doing what he did was more interesting.

SixKeys
12-05-2015, 10:31 AM
Because it's boring. They literally stand in the opening and are just like... Hey wanna liberate London? Hmmmm okay!

The hell is that?

It's not really relatable. Why are they doing that? Just because it's their job? Why do they continue to do said job?

This is never delved into, we know they have a dead assassins father, we know Jacob likes killing Templars and Evie likes hunting for artifacts. That's pretty much it.

You need motivation to get the player invested and "let's do this because it's what we do" isn't enough.

Nobody has to die, maybe it's a quest for enlightenment, maybe they just wanna be a hero, maybe they want money, power, glory, etc...

Something needs to be present so they can develop. For these two it would have been as easy as writing it so that they question why they do what they do and by the end of the game they make a decision on whether or not to keep doing it that shows personal growth.

If there's no development than the characters might as well be silent, the only thing that can carry the game from there is the game play.

Oh and btw, Altair was on a quest to regain his honor. So yeah his reason for doing what he did was more interesting.

Evie's motivation is to honor her father's legacy by continuing his work. Good enough for me. Not sure about Jacob, though. Probably just because he likes causing a ruckus.

Now Aveline, I have no idea why she does what she does. She wants to find her mom but does she need to be an assassin to do it? Maybe I missed something. Just saying we haven't always delved that deeply into each assassin's motivations.

I didn't say anything about Altaïr's motivation, but thanks for pointing that out, I guess?

VestigialLlama4
12-05-2015, 12:42 PM
My point was that while I do think there's more to Evie than that, being defined by simply being an assassin isn't really a bad thing. People are often defined by their job or lifestyle. It may not be everything they are, but it does shape their personality a great deal. Look at Leonardo, the artist and inventor. Look at Bartolomeo, the soldier. Their characters were largely informed by their professions. Leonardo was excitable and fascinated by everything, Bartolomeo was proud and confrontational.

Being an Assassin is not really the same thing as being an artist or mercenary. An Assassin is a philosophicaly minded murderer/quasi revolutionary. It's not a paying job or an artistic skill or talent. Being an Assassin is essentially being a metaphor, at least that is how it is in all the post-Altair games. For Altair, being an Assassin made sense because it was a real public organization, with its own fortress and village and everything. After that they are an underground organization and they hide behind fronts. So Arno, Evie and Jacob can't just be an Assassin. They have to have a public front for it to make some sense that Darwin and Marx and others are interacting with them. Ezio could interact with people around him because he was an aristocrat, he owned a villa in Monteriggioni, Connor could interact with others because he was a privateer, yeoman landlord, soldier and property owner.


I have a hard time seeing it like that. If I play as Evie in almost every mission except the big assassinations, then it feels like she's been doing most of the work. She's the one taking down gang strongholds, she's the one liberating children, she's the one trying to gain the approval of Henry, Ned, Clara, Abberline, Darwins, ****ens and Marx. She's the one raiding Templar shipments and hunting their leaders. She's the one conducting all the gang wars after conquering boroughs. So all Jacob really does is form the Rooks and take down a few head Templars.

From a plot and gameplay perspective, Jacob's actions are more substantial than Evie's, that's all. Heck even Henry Green is more substantial, he was the man with all the contacts (Abberline, Clara, Graham Bell). It's not any real equality really.

I-Like-Pie45
12-05-2015, 05:45 PM
until ubisoft comes out with the official canon as to who did what missions, side missions where you can pick between the twins cannot be counted to a protagonist's accomplishments

SixKeys
12-05-2015, 08:10 PM
Being an Assassin is not really the same thing as being an artist or mercenary. An Assassin is a philosophicaly minded murderer/quasi revolutionary. It's not a paying job or an artistic skill or talent. Being an Assassin is essentially being a metaphor, at least that is how it is in all the post-Altair games.

I've seen you make the metaphor claim before and I disagree with it. What was Yusuf's "front"? La Volpe's? Nikolai's? Shao Jun's?



From a plot and gameplay perspective, Jacob's actions are more substantial than Evie's, that's all. Heck even Henry Green is more substantial, he was the man with all the contacts (Abberline, Clara, Graham Bell). It's not any real equality really.

Again, I don't get that line of thinking. Storywise Jacob may have killed the biggest head honchos, but Evie did literally everything else (in my game). Without Evie's actions, my map of London would still be almost entirely red. How does that not make her substantial?


until ubisoft comes out with the official canon as to who did what missions, side missions where you can pick between the twins cannot be counted to a protagonist's accomplishments

It's all canon. That's the beauty of it. As long as you get 100% sync in a mission, that means that's how it really happened, regardless of which twin you're playing with. Which makes me happy because it reminds me of AC1 and AC2, when we still didn't have full sync restrictions telling us exactly how to perform a mission. In one save file, Ezio may have killed someone with an air assassination and that was canon. In another save file, he may have killed them with the hidden gun, and that was canon. Every playthrough you could change things up and shape the story to your liking. Full sync is really restrictive to the imagination, but in this case I'm free to change things up again if I ever start over. Maybe next time I'll do most of the missions as Jacob and no-one can tell me either save file is more canon than the other. As long as I reach full sync in any given mission, I've got "proof" that that's exactly how things happened. :)

I-Like-Pie45
12-05-2015, 08:20 PM
no you're just creating time paradoxes and alternate realities with this blatant tampering sixkeys :eek:

more than what the laws of thermodynamics within the universe can handle

so when the empty hand envelops our existence and feasts upon us till we're nothing more than atomic skeletons drifting amongst stardust we'll know who to blame :eek:

Sesheenku
12-05-2015, 08:22 PM
Evie's motivation is to honor her father's legacy by continuing his work. Good enough for me. Not sure about Jacob, though. Probably just because he likes causing a ruckus.

Now Aveline, I have no idea why she does what she does. She wants to find her mom but does she need to be an assassin to do it? Maybe I missed something. Just saying we haven't always delved that deeply into each assassin's motivations.

I didn't say anything about Altaïr's motivation, but thanks for pointing that out, I guess?

A father we never met, know practically nothing about and thus don't care about. Truly great writing.

You compared them to Altair here dear.

"Why would they need special motivation beyond "we're assassins, let's fight some Templars"? We're following the lives of two assassins who have grown up in the Order, the first ones since Altaïr. This lifestyle is all they know."

It's all Altair knew too but he still had an interesting motive and we actually knew enough to give a damn about it.

I don't bother with the carelessly made spinoff games so I don't know anything about Aveline nor do I care about the game or her quite frankly, I saw someone play it and it looked extremely bland.

Assassin_M
12-05-2015, 08:43 PM
My point was that while I do think there's more to Evie than that, being defined by simply being an assassin isn't really a bad thing. People are often defined by their job or lifestyle. It may not be everything they are, but it does shape their personality a great deal. Look at Leonardo, the artist and inventor. Look at Bartolomeo, the soldier. Their characters were largely informed by their professions. Leonardo was excitable and fascinated by everything, Bartolomeo was proud and confrontational.
You keep misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and you do it with Llama too. I'm not saying they need jobs outside of being Assassins, I'm saying her character traits are not defined by ANYTHING else. Lets look at other protagonists. Altair was arrogant and full of pride, Ezio was....., Connor was naive and idealistic, Edward was selfish and reckless. These traits have nothing to do with other jobs, these traits defined them throughout the game and they changed as the story advanced, giving them meaningful motivations.

Evie's entire arc is based on a romance. That vehicle is a very weak one, in my opinion and doesn't serve an arc well, just look at Arno and Elise.


People read all kinds of things into Connor that aren't properly explored in the actual story, either.
Well, most of the time, you dismiss any of those "deeper outlooks" :rolleyes: But okay, such as? Even before the monologue was put up on YT, people had already figured Connor's arc and how he changed as a person. When the monologue was released, everyone said "Just confirms how I viewed Connor". No one was surprised. I'd say if people figured it out without the monologue, then the script wasn't that bad. When you finish the game, tell me at which point did the game make clear how Evie was going to grow as a person. What flaw or emotional burden was she supposed to overcome. In my experience, the game makes it clear PRETTY late into the story and that's not a good thing.


it's the fault of the script if they never take that to its full potential. Same with Evie.
Well, when I say I don't like Evie, I'm actually blaming the script, so :p


I will admit there are some odd moments like that in the game, that don't necessarily seem consistent with the characters' personalities. It's happened in every game so far, though, so I don't take Syndicate to task for it any more than I do those games. Sometimes these things are a result of too many chefs, each studio doing its own thing and not keeping up with how the whole balances out.
Well, just one more to add to the list. Criticism ensures it doesn't happen again, right?


I'm only defensive in the sense that I'm defending Evie's character. Not trying to be passive-aggressive or anything.
I know, I know, just wanted to make sure you don't think I'm being passive aggressive either.


Meh. You already know how I feel about Connor, and I still think Altaïr is very two-dimensional. Revelations gave him a bit more depth, but not much. He starts off as laughably cliché, saying things like "my way is better". When the change happens, it feels quite sudden. Not completely, but there is a clear moment in the game when his voice suddenly goes from stern to soft to signify the start of his transformation, and that moment comes pretty early. That could be read as being the voice actor's fault, though.
Just gonna disagree there.


I have a hard time seeing it like that. If I play as Evie in almost every mission except the big assassinations, then it feels like she's been doing most of the work. She's the one taking down gang strongholds, she's the one liberating children, she's the one trying to gain the approval of Henry, Ned, Clara, Abberline, Darwins, ****ens and Marx. She's the one raiding Templar shipments and hunting their leaders. She's the one conducting all the gang wars after conquering boroughs. So all Jacob really does is form the Rooks and take down a few head Templars.
This logic makes the most sense. You compared 100% sync objectives to this, but it's very different. The Sync objects don't go so far as to say someone else did a certain task while you did nothing. 100% sync either show HOW a kill was done or whether or not you completed an unimportant, secondary objective. The ancestors STILL did the things, even if you didn't exactly do them in the memory. Saying that whatever the player does is canon is very convenient, so in this discussion it'd be better to stick to a general rule, rather than one experience, else it'd devolve to "But I did everything with Jacob". There'd be no objective ground to stand on.


Why should those be considered separately? They're just as much a part of the plot. Evie met Darwin, D*ckens et al several times, period.
I thought you didn't consider side missions a part of the plot? At least that's what I remember when I bring up side missions and how they contribute to Connor's character.

VestigialLlama4
12-05-2015, 08:49 PM
I've seen you make the metaphor claim before and I disagree with it. What was Yusuf's "front"? La Volpe's? Nikolai's? Shao Jun's?

La Volpe was the head of the Thieves Guild in Florence and in Rome, he starts his own Tavern, your classic bad guy bar called La volpe addormentata which is explicitly built as a front to police the underworld. The whole point of the story in AC2 is to show how the Assassins have survived and blended into Italian society. Like initially Ezio doesn't entirely understand why his banker-Dad was also an Assassin, he initially thinks Mario is not making sense. The climax is when Ezio finds out that all those people he met along the way were all Assassins, each one blending and occupying a certain faction (either Courtesan/Thief/Mercenary). As Mario Auditore says, "In this modern age we are not so literal as our ancestors". The point is Assassins change with the times, blend in society and work in the shadows by taking certain fronts.

As for Yusuf Tazim, we don't know his background too well to say one way or another since we see Istanbul from Ezio's eyes, and Ezio is a travelling scholar/independent archaeologist. One of the Assassins is Piri Reis who is a cartographer/officer in the Ottoman Navy so there is some involvement. As for Shao Jun she's a former concubine in the Ming Court. So she has a social background if not a civilian identity. Her mentor Wang Yangming is an actual Confucian scholar. In Black Flag, the Assassins obviously largely draw their base from the dispossessed peoples of the New World, the Maya, the Taino, the fugitive slaves, and there are fewer European Assassins in the New World.

It's only with Unity-Syndicate you have the decay...where the Assassins stand apart from the setting rather than inside it.


Again, I don't get that line of thinking. Storywise Jacob may have killed the biggest head honchos, but Evie did literally everything else (in my game). Without Evie's actions, my map of London would still be almost entirely red. How does that not make her substantial?

Because Jacob also did that. The real difference is when the game actually tells you what Evie alone did and what Jacob alone did. Evie and Jacob probably did all the side missions together anyway, that's why they play the same regardless of who you choose, it's just that as Yohalem told Loomer, they didn't know how to code the pathfinding of an AI Companion, so you didn't have Evie and/or Jacob accompany each other. It's too hard (ubisoft are too lazy) to do so. I am not saying Evie isn't substantial or relevant to the game, she is. I am just saying that she is clearly second to Jacob in emphasis and gameplay, objectively speaking.

BananaBlighter
12-05-2015, 09:20 PM
She's nice. Nothing too special, but Ubi did handle the first real female protagonist very well. Honestly, I can't really imagine Syndicate with just Evie or just Jacob. They're both pretty boring by themselves, it's their interactions that made them feel alive.

I mean, throughout the story, Evie is focused on the PoE and that's it. I don't like the fact that she isn't interested in taking back London for the good of the people as much as Jacob is. I guess she's determined, but a lot of people are determined.

And then she just doesn't get any development. At least Jacob has some sort of minor character arc. He messed up and he admits it, becomes a slightly nicer person by the end of it. You don't think of him as really caring until the later sequences.

There's nothing about Evie that's not about the creed, even her love life! Altair is the only other protagonist to follow this, though, as Vestigial points out, it is literally all he knows. He spends his whole life carrying out their orders, of course he's going to be devoted to them. At least Altair gets character development, something that is lacking from Evie's story.

DynaRider
12-05-2015, 09:45 PM
Evie is a vicious fighter who I definitely wouldn't get into a fight ring with and better than Jacob. I had her in a fight with a thug and he made the mistake of putting his hand on top of a wooden box. Evie stabbed his hand with a knife sticking it to the top of the box and then she finished him off. She carries more throwing knives and is just an all around better assassin.

crusader_prophet
12-07-2015, 01:00 AM
Just something that popped into my mind. I keep seeing everyone saying that they like Evie, that she's amazing, better than Jacob...etc, but I really thought she was bland. That's not to say I liked Jacob any better, I really thought both were very bland and uninspired, but apparently everyone likes Evie. I'm only curious to see people discussing their views.

Evie felt like more of an Assassin in comparison to Jacob if we keep the context just to AC Syndicate. May be it is due to the inherent design of the story and side missions. Or that UbiSoft wanted to wield a dual blade by giving gamers the fun of AC4 via Jacob while serving the AC universe's lore via Evie. She is also more relevant and true to the overall narrative of the creed compared to Jacob. The fact that she was cleaning up after Jacob, had her priorities right by virtue of the narrative design and she stood up to Queen Victoria to deny allegiance to her and "work" for her - all that earned her respect from me.

CrossedEagle
12-07-2015, 01:38 AM
I liked Jacob and Evie about the same. I think I preferred Jacob's character a bit more, but Evie's quest for the POE was a better story. They aren't my favorite Assassins although I think they were both performed well. Their mo-cap actors are awesome from what I've seen.

I know a lot of people want a Frye twin sequel, but I honestly think that there story will be complete with the WWI rift and the Jack the Ripper DLC.

Megas_Doux
12-07-2015, 02:24 AM
To me there's a lot of hypocrisy. I mean Connor had more personality than Evie Frye

.

The thing that kills Connor for me is the super sub-par VA. Connor's story is really good, but the way Watts acted was the dullest thing ever....To me, at least.

Mr.Black24
12-07-2015, 03:02 AM
I'm still in Sequence 4 or 6 (I don't remember really as I am busy as a full time collage student + job)

However, from what I've seen so far, she wants to free London from the corruption and dismay that is brought by the Templars there. She also wants to honor her father's memory by searching for the pieces of eden. She has those nice adorkable moments when she finds Assassin history. Granted, I know someone here said that it can be the same for the other Assassins, like how Ezio was to Altair, but its similar.
Evie was more like "Holy crap thats Edward Kenway's flag! I can't believe its still here! Look at all this Assassin history!"

while Ezio was more in tone of "Altiar's seal, nice".

Plus its refreshing to see a female protagonist take charge and be able to take the wheel since Aveline, while most of the time they had taken a secondary position.


Evie's entire arc is based on a romance. That vehicle is a very weak one, in my opinion and doesn't serve an arc well, just look at Arno and Elise. It could have been something strong, but I blame poor writing. I wanted to see more conflicts on their views with the French Revolution as well as the possibility of union, just like their fathers wanted, which I highly expected. The revenge part was great, but alone it wasn't strong enough to carry it out. But alas, it was not meant to be.

Perhaps I will create a thread dissecting Arno and Elise's character, that is if anyone is interested, although I might do it anyway. There was much there that I think it was just blind hatred for the broken game itself that damaged Arno/Elise's story, similar effect happened to Connor and his game. As if somehow the glitches is Connor's fault.




This logic makes the most sense. You compared 100% sync objectives to this, but it's very different. The Sync objects don't go so far as to say someone else did a certain task while you did nothing. 100% sync either show HOW a kill was done or whether or not you completed an unimportant, secondary objective. The ancestors STILL did the things, even if you didn't exactly do them in the memory. Saying that whatever the player does is canon is very convenient, so in this discussion it'd be better to stick to a general rule, rather than one experience, else it'd devolve to "But I did everything with Jacob". There'd be no objective ground to stand on.

Not to mention that the Animus has the ability to modify and reconfigure memories so it would be easier for the user to flow about in the sequences. After all, if the Animus went full on reviewing the memories on how the Assassins moved EXACTLY the way they did, the user would just be watching their memories like a movie, and not actually interacting with the world through the subject.


I thought you didn't consider side missions a part of the plot? At least that's what I remember when I bring up side missions and how they contribute to Connor's character.

Like that ****ing idiot reviewer Luke from Kotaku who was reviewing Connor's character, saying that the side missions are just fluff, and all the character traits that Connor fans view on him are just "projections" as he is "blank like a white canvas", and is just amazed at where they are coming to "such conclusions".

****ing hate the idiot to the bone.


The thing that kills Connor for me is the super sub-par VA. Connor's story is really good, but the way Watts acted was the dullest thing ever....To me, at least.

Somehow a calm, disciplined, and stoic tone means dull. Especially since Noah Watts went that way as consulted by the actual Mohawk people. After all, the man himself while he is native, he isn't Mohawk, so he received training by the Mohawk consultants in order to get the tone and language properly.

Besides, don't people realize not everyone was sun shiny happy, and not everyone in the world speaks in a happy pippy manner like in America? Tones and accents are different with everyone, everywhere.:rolleyes:

Megas_Doux
12-07-2015, 03:47 AM
Somehow a calm, disciplined, and stoic tone means dull. Especially since Noah Watts went that way as consulted by the actual Mohawk people. After all, the man himself while he is native, he isn't Mohawk, so he received training by the Mohawk consultants in order to get the tone and language properly.

Besides, don't people realize not everyone was sun shiny happy, and not everyone in the world speaks in a happy pippy manner like in America? Tones and accents are different with everyone, everywhere.:rolleyes:

You didn't get my point: I like Connor's story and I do understand his behavior, manners and such... But I just can't stand Watt's performance for I find it plain and overall just bad, as simple as that. I mean, you can have Shakespeare material if you like, but if the actor doesn't deliver, well........

Mr.Black24
12-07-2015, 04:44 AM
You didn't get my point: I like Connor's story and I do understand his behavior, manners and such... But I just can't stand Watt's performance for I find it plain and overall just bad, as simple as that. I mean, you can have Shakespeare material if you like, but if the actor doesn't deliver, well........
But you missed my point too. I said the reason why Watt's performance was so because he received training by the Mohawk consultants in order to get the tone and language properly. The reason why he spoke they way he spoke is because the Mohawk consultants trained him too, as that's just how it was back then. I mean we do see him evolve a bit more in TTOKW, as hinted when he talked to Falkner about his grandfather, he said so much more light heartedly and prideful. It could have expanded that Connor learned to relax a bit more now, and thus have a much more flexible tone. Alas, it is unknown if that is ever truly meant to be, as Ubisoft just decided to drop him.

Sesheenku
12-07-2015, 04:59 AM
Evie felt like more of an Assassin in comparison to Jacob if we keep the context just to AC Syndicate. May be it is due to the inherent design of the story and side missions. Or that UbiSoft wanted to wield a dual blade by giving gamers the fun of AC4 via Jacob while serving the AC universe's lore via Evie. She is also more relevant and true to the overall narrative of the creed compared to Jacob. The fact that she was cleaning up after Jacob, had her priorities right by virtue of the narrative design and she stood up to Queen Victoria to deny allegiance to her and "work" for her - all that earned her respect from me.

Meh. She was TOO soft. Jacob isn't a crappy assassins and neither is Evie but they are incomplete without each other. The Templars would not have fallen without Jacob's work.

She may have been cleaning up the messy way he went about it but it needed to be done and he took care of it.

Neither of them had their priorities right because both of their jobs should have been priorities to both of them.

Assassin_M
12-07-2015, 05:05 AM
But you missed my point too. I said the reason why Watt's performance was so because he received training by the Mohawk consultants in order to get the tone and language properly. The reason why he spoke they way he spoke is because the Mohawk consultants trained him too, as that's just how it was back then. I mean we do see him evolve a bit more in TTOKW, as hinted when he talked to Falkner about his grandfather, he said so much more light heartedly and prideful. It could have expanded that Connor learned to relax a bit more now, and thus have a much more flexible tone. Alas, it is unknown if that is ever truly meant to be, as Ubisoft just decided to drop him.
Noah's work was top notch for me.....most of the time. Even I can agree with Megas and others that sometimes.....the lines weren't delivered well. Now, seeing that Noah had amazing moments, I'd say this is likely the director's fault or maybe Noah just does better in full body capture acting, since he's a theater actor originally. I say this because the lines that I thought weren't that great were in the Homestead interludes. Not the full cutscenes, but the less impressive ones where they just stand and talk.

If I get the chance to remake AC III, I would definitely re-record some of those lines.

Megas_Doux
12-07-2015, 05:19 AM
The reason why he spoke they way he spoke is because the Mohawk consultants trained him too, as that's just how it was back then. I mean we do see him evolve a bit more in TTOKW, as hinted when he talked to Falkner about his grandfather, he said so much more light heartedly and prideful. It could have expanded that Connor learned to relax a bit more now, and thus have a much more flexible tone. Alas, it is unknown if that is ever truly meant to be, as Ubisoft just decided to drop him.

You have a point, direction is super important!!!!!

Which is why I, unless we encounter exaggerations/stereotypes, I like to have some sort of liberties for the sake of gameplay or in this case, performance. I do agree with you that in terms of VA, Tyranny's Connor is WAY better than AC III, at least to me. And that not only applies to Connor, but also to the entire mohawk set characters.You know, I appreciate Ubisoft's dedication to have actual mohawk people portraying those mohawk characters, in the likes of the clan mother for instance. However that doesn't mean there's going be quality acting.....

I wont forget the sequence in which Connor finds out about plot involving Lee, Washington, the village and his long time childhood friend. The scene in which the Clan mother warns him about the situation should've been this emotional exchange between two characters... Yet the tone in mohawk makes it sound like they are discussing trivial matters :(

One of the reasons for which I prefer its DLC over the game. Well, the war atmosphere helped a lot, as well :p

SixKeys
12-07-2015, 05:31 AM
You keep misunderstanding what I'm trying to say and you do it with Llama too. I'm not saying they need jobs outside of being Assassins, I'm saying her character traits are not defined by ANYTHING else. Lets look at other protagonists. Altair was arrogant and full of pride, Ezio was....., Connor was naive and idealistic, Edward was selfish and reckless. These traits have nothing to do with other jobs, these traits defined them throughout the game and they changed as the story advanced, giving them meaningful motivations.

And Evie is a bookish perfectionist with a penchant for tradition. She geeks out over assassin lore, she wears outfits that look kind of old-fashioned and out of place in the Victorian age (whereas Jacob is much more a man of his time) and she chides herself when she makes mistakes because she's desperate to live up to her father's name.



Well, most of the time, you dismiss any of those "deeper outlooks" :rolleyes: But okay, such as? Even before the monologue was put up on YT, people had already figured Connor's arc and how he changed as a person. When the monologue was released, everyone said "Just confirms how I viewed Connor". No one was surprised. I'd say if people figured it out without the monologue, then the script wasn't that bad. When you finish the game, tell me at which point did the game make clear how Evie was going to grow as a person. What flaw or emotional burden was she supposed to overcome. In my experience, the game makes it clear PRETTY late into the story and that's not a good thing.

Such as Connor supposedly being a depressed introvert with PTSD who is "bullied" and "taken advantage of" by the women in his life, and how anyone who doesn't see these things is obviously a racist, uncultured moron. :rolleyes:

As far as growing as a character, I agree with what D.I.D. pointed out in another thread which is that protagonists don't always necessarily need an arc to be compelling. Ezio barely had one in AC2. He wouldn't have had one at all had they gone with their original plan of killing Rodrigo at the end of the game. Yet he was still popular enough to spawn two more games.

Can't say yet if Evie turns out the same way, will have to play the rest of the game first. Just saying that even if she doesn't go through a personal change, it's not automatically a sign of bad character.



I thought you didn't consider side missions a part of the plot? At least that's what I remember when I bring up side missions and how they contribute to Connor's character.

I suppose it depends on how those side missions relate to the overall plot. Like the naval missions in AC3 are important to the plot because they're about hunting down What's-his-face who only moves by ship, and he is one of the main Templars. Tombs and assassination contracts? Not so much. (I'm not just saying that because the contracts in AC3 were exceptionally crap, BTW. Other games had better ones but they were still largely irrelevant to character insight and plot.)

It's admittedly difficult for me to judge all of Syndicate when I'm only halfway through the game. So I might be wrong in assuming that Darwin and the other companions are part of the main plot somehow, since you brought up the argument that Evie's not important because she supposedly never met Darwin. I can only assume that means it's somehow relevant that she should have met him.

crusader_prophet
12-07-2015, 06:24 AM
Meh. She was TOO soft.
How was she soft? Please describe. She had PoE as the priority from the beginning, not that she was soft, instead the templar leaders weren't her priorities except Lucy and Starrick.

Assassin_M
12-07-2015, 06:40 AM
And Evie is a bookish perfectionist with a penchant for tradition. She geeks out over assassin lore, she wears outfits that look kind of old-fashioned and out of place in the Victorian age (whereas Jacob is much more a man of his time) and she chides herself when she makes mistakes because she's desperate to live up to her father's name.

Overlooking the fact that most of these are aesthetic traits, do they impact any element of the narrative in interesting and meaningful ways? Does her penchant for tradition, for example, create any dynamic between her and other characters? Is it a good thing? Does someone call her out on it? Does it create any problems? Does her chiding herself manifest in other ways? Do we see her reflect on this? Do we see other characters around her bring it up? Does it risk other people's lives? Does it save lives? This is exactly what I talked about to D.I.D in his thread about arcs.


Such as Connor supposedly being a depressed introvert with PTSD who is "bullied" and "taken advantage of" by the women in his life, and how anyone who doesn't see these things is obviously a racist, uncultured moron. :rolleyes:
Suuuuuuure, lets take the example of one person and apply it to everyone, don't dodge my point :p


As far as growing as a character, I agree with what D.I.D. pointed out in another thread which is that protagonists don't always necessarily need an arc to be compelling. Ezio barely had one in AC2. He wouldn't have had one at all had they gone with their original plan of killing Rodrigo at the end of the game. Yet he was still popular enough to spawn two more games.

Can't say yet if Evie turns out the same way, will have to play the rest of the game first. Just saying that even if she doesn't go through a personal change, it's not automatically a sign of bad character.
And here's what I said to D.I.D:

Firstly, I've no problem with the lack of concise character arcs or a Hero's Journey, to be more precise. You've played right into my territory with the detective genre. Another example, which I'll use later to illustrate my point, would be Conan Edogawa/Shnichi Kudo (Holmes and Poirot were the precursors to me being a fan of Detective Conan). Conan has no character arc where he starts off as one person and changes into another person. What drives this character vehicle is the intrigue of him being a teenage detective who outsmarts dangerous criminals and catches them faster than the police. Conan doesn't grow, his outlook on life and crime never changes, he pretty much starts and continues as he is. Goku from Dragonball too, he's the same way. He's the same ol' guy, no matter what happens and no matter how much time passes. Are they bad characters? Nope. They're amazing and hugely popular.

Secondly, I don't value character arcs for no reason. I value them because it's how Ubisoft writes their protagonists. In every interview, every video, every time they talk about the characters, they emphasize the fact that they wrote Evie and Jacob to start out as something and end up as something else. They've always used the Hero's Journey concept, they like it a lot. It's a pretty solid concept, one that's been used in video games since forever. Me criticizing Evie is not because she HAS to have an arc, but rather it's because this is how Ubisoft intended to write her and in my view, it wasn't very good.


What I'm saying is, if I was served a dish that had no chicken on the menu, I wouldn't criticize it for NOT having chicken, but if it did have chicken on the menu and came without it, then I have grounds to criticize. Is chicken absolutely essential? Of course not.


Now, back to characters like Conan, Holmes and Goku. Think about those characters for a second. You've brought up all of Holmes' interesting points. Him being a sociopath veering on psycho, being addicted to narcotics, addicted to solving crimes....etc. Those are very interesting character concepts and add layers upon layers of depth to both narrative and the character. Conan is a teenager who loves crime novels and has an insane amount of knowledge. He uses that to solve crimes that even the police cannot solve. He's a paragon of justice and goodness because he refuses to push his proverbial victims to suicide, viewing such an act equal to murder. He's selfless, brave, courageous and values human life to an illogical extent, even willing to disregard his own safety to save one single person. This never changes. He's like this from the very beginning. What makes this character good is the fact that, like you said, all these traits add depth. We're not TOLD about these traits, we're shown these traits in meaningful ways throughout the narrative. These traits influence the situations he's in, the world around him, the people he meets, even some of the criminals that shrunk his body, intending to initially murder him. Conan is interesting because of how he interacts with the characters he meets.


Heiji, another detective in the show, is introduced as a punk teen who views himself as a rival to Conan/Shinichi. Heiji places this rivalry on a huge pedestal, viewing it as extremely important, but because of his interaction with Conan/Shinichi, he starts to see that there are other, more important things to solving crime and it becomes apparent in his later actions such as when he risks his life to save a criminal who did his crime and wanted to commit suicide. Heiji has an arc, but he's not better than Conan/Shinichi. Conan is just as good of a character because of that interaction. This depth, this chemistry, it's essential to a good narrative. A hero doesn't have to change, they can be the same from start to end, but there has to be depth, there has to be meaningful impact and interesting discussions. Goku from Dragonball is the same way. There are tons of other examples but I wont bore you with details, you get my point.


I have always said that what makes AC unique and interesting is the fact that its entire premise is based on a discussion. A very simple yet violent discussion about Freedom vs Control. Look at a game like RDR. John Marston doesn't change at all, but the game uses the characters that interact with Marston as the player vehicle. They ask him questions and call him out on his occasional hypocrisy and that gives way to John showing his depth to the viewer. Irish, a common thief and arms dealer. West ****ens, a swindler. Leigh Johnson, the lawman. All characters with different outlooks and they interact with John. This narrative vehicle spawns deep dialogue and an outlook mirror from the characters to John Marston. See, there's a dynamic. Something's happening around John and he reacts to it, based on how he's written.


A character like Evie, on the other hand, has no such depth to her. She doesn't affect her brother in any meaningful way and we're not shown that she's a stone cold Assassin who closed her heart to love and romance. She instantly falls in love with Henry the moment they meet and keeps chastising and patronizing Jacob for his recklessness, there's nothing endearing about her. Okay, sure, lets have the romance be the main catalyst of her narrative, but she does NOTHING for the other side of the narrative, Jacob. The dialogue is uninteresting and the very dynamic is simply uninspired. She does nothing of emotional or narrative impact on the screen. Reflecting AC narrative, her impacts merely pertain to in-game Macguffins, gameplay mechanics or plot devices. Killing Templars, finding Pieces of Eden, liberating London and there's little else.


I suppose it depends on how those side missions relate to the overall plot. Like the naval missions in AC3 are important to the plot because they're about hunting down What's-his-face who only moves by ship, and he is one of the main Templars. Tombs and assassination contracts? Not so much. (I'm not just saying that because the contracts in AC3 were exceptionally crap, BTW. Other games had better ones but they were still largely irrelevant to character insight and plot.)
When you and I argued, it was on the Homestead missions. Knowing how the side character missions are like in Syndicate, I would say the Homestead missions were a lot more important.


It's admittedly difficult for me to judge all of Syndicate when I'm only halfway through the game. So I might be wrong in assuming that Darwin and the other companions are part of the main plot somehow, since you brought up the argument that Evie's not important because she supposedly never met Darwin. I can only assume that means it's somehow relevant that she should have met him.
I understand that and I hope we can continue the discussion when you finish the game. Also, to the underlined, weeeellll, that's not what I said exactly. I said that Jacob takes most of the screen time, so Evie feels like an afterthought, giving meeting Darwin as an example where interesting discussions between them could have taken place. And no, meeting Darwin is not that relevant.

SixKeys
12-07-2015, 08:34 PM
Overlooking the fact that most of these are aesthetic traits, do they impact any element of the narrative in interesting and meaningful ways? Does her penchant for tradition, for example, create any dynamic between her and other characters? Is it a good thing? Does someone call her out on it? Does it create any problems? Does her chiding herself manifest in other ways? Do we see her reflect on this? Do we see other characters around her bring it up? Does it risk other people's lives? Does it save lives? This is exactly what I talked about to D.I.D in his thread about arcs.

Yes, her penchant for hanging onto traditions causes friction between her and Jacob. She immediately finds a connection with Henry who shares her reverence for traditional assassin ways. (Whereas Jacob seems to get along better with someone like Ned who doesn't mind a bit of destruction and mayhem now and then if it's for a good cause.) It causes problems insofar that she's not open to ideas that don't fit her traditionalist view of an assassin. As for all the other stuff, can't comment on those before finishing the story. Just pointing out that this is what I've observed so far.



Suuuuuuure, lets take the example of one person and apply it to everyone, don't dodge my point :p

What do you mean one person? These are points I've seen posted many times over on the forums, YouTube and Tumblr.



When you and I argued, it was on the Homestead missions. Knowing how the side character missions are like in Syndicate, I would say the Homestead missions were a lot more important.

Yes, chasing pigs and collecting flowers was so meaningful to Connor's character arc. :rolleyes:
J/k, I think I know what you're getting at. Helping Darwin et al was just a way to kill time basically, those characters didn't really help us learn anything about the twins. Except D*ckens, I would argue, since his introduction revealed that Jacob and Evie have different approaches to supernatural phenomena. (Jacob laughed at the idea when D*ckens asked if they believed in ghosts, Evie enthusiastically nodded "yes".) In the same sense, I think there is a LOT of fluff in the Homestead missions that show absolutely nothing about Connor. My favorites were the ones where he was truly helping people, like when he carried an injured Miriam to the mansion or helped protect the seamstress (forgot her name) from her ex-husband. Those types of missions showed us what kind of person he was. But then there was crap like going back and forth between cities just to get some guy a hammer, helping Norris blow up some cave and doing all his courting work for him.

The associate missions in Syndicate are more related to the overall theme of liberating London, just like ACB. That game also had a lot of nonsense, like collecting flags apparently somehow helped liberate Rome. Syndicate is driven by the same principle of having all missions tie into the overall goal. There is some ACB-like weirdness there that feels out of place, like the races and fight clubs. Stuff that doesn't seem to have anything to do with liberating London and don't make a lot of sense for the characters to waste their time on. It's a difficult balance to strike, I imagine, designing missions that are simultaneously fun and make sense for the plot/characters.

It's funny that you say Evie feels more like an afterthought, because I often have the opposite feeling. I feel like Jacob's character is pretty boring and cliché, just another brash, fun-loving male protagonist that they needed to sell the game. All the stealth missions (including Templar hunts and gang hideouts) seem tailored for Evie, whereas it makes less sense for Jacob to take the stealthy approach in the main missions. The weaker side missions like cart-driving and fight clubs (much as I love them) make more sense for Jacob, but they're super-simplistic and feel thrown in at the last minute to add more content. I feel Evie could have easily carried the game on her own had Ubi only had the balls to make a main title with a female protagonist. But it feels like they came up with the idea of twins because they weren't sure how well the game would sell if she was the sole hero. To me it's Jacob who feels like the afterthought.

cawatrooper9
12-07-2015, 08:45 PM
I've seen a lot of squabbling over which character is better, which character is "right"... perhaps answer to these questions is the same: both, together. Evie's quest for the POE ended up being vital to taking down Starrick... but they never would've gotten close to him without Jacob's interference with the Rooks.

Likewise, I don't think Evie and Jacob can individually be fairly compared to other protagonists. I don't necessarily see this as a limit of the game- I'm sure that if the writers wanted to create more flushed out characters, they could've. I think the point is that alone they're weak- but together, they're greater than the sum of their parts.

I-Like-Pie45
12-07-2015, 09:28 PM
well the "depressed introvert with PTSD who is "bullied" and "taken advantage of" by the women in his life" isn't something that gets posted a lot

and besides

how do you know that the racism accusations aren't valid

nobody enjoys being called a racist but few people who are actual racists actually think that they're racists or will admit to it but all you have to do is take a look at the world and the landscape and it's pretty apparent that everyone has a little bit of it inside of them.

SixKeys
12-07-2015, 10:06 PM
well the "depressed introvert with PTSD who is "bullied" and "taken advantage of" by the women in his life" isn't something that gets posted a lot

I just said I've seen similar claims posted on multiple different platforms. One person didn't say all of that, it's a combination of several claims. So one person may have called Connor an introvert who gets bullied a lot, another person says he had PTSD, a third person talks about the women in his life and so forth. The point I was making is that people read all kinds of things into a character for which there is no concrete evidence in the script. Which is fine, everyone has their own interpretation of a character. I just don't appreciate it when people act like everyone who doesn't agree with their interpretation is dumb.



and besides

how do you know that the racism accusations aren't valid

nobody enjoys being called a racist but few people who are actual racists actually think that they're racists or will admit to it but all you have to do is take a look at the world and the landscape and it's pretty apparent that everyone has a little bit of it inside of them.

Not sure if you're being serious or not, but on the off-chance... :rolleyes:

I'm not saying it isn't possible there are some people who simply don't like Connor because they're racists. I'm saying that disagreeing with claims like "Connor has PTSD" has nothing to do with racism. It would if the claim was something like "Connor is a native and that makes him stupid", but that's not the kind of claim we're talking about.

Mr.Black24
12-07-2015, 11:04 PM
I just said I've seen similar claims posted on multiple different platforms. One person didn't say all of that, it's a combination of several claims. So one person may have called Connor an introvert who gets bullied a lot, another person says he had PTSD, a third person talks about the women in his life and so forth. The point I was making is that people read all kinds of things into a character for which there is no concrete evidence in the script. Which is fine, everyone has their own interpretation of a character. I just don't appreciate it when people act like everyone who doesn't agree with their interpretation is dumb.

I was just confused when you said that Connor had all these things cuz of the women in his life. I frequent a lot on tumblr, and I never seen a post like that in my entire life so far. The Homestead missions just shows that Connor cares for his new friends and would do even menial tasks for them.

" I think there is a LOT of fluff in the Homestead missions that show absolutely nothing about Connor."

Besides, why let a pregnant woman chase after pigs? They can't move fast, they waddle! How is that not truly helping someone?

"But then there was crap like going back and forth between cities just to get some guy a hammer, helping Norris blow up some cave and doing all his courting work for him."

Sometime I wonder what else is needed to show that Connor does all these things simply because he is a good person.

Assassin_M
12-08-2015, 02:54 AM
Yes, her penchant for hanging onto traditions causes friction between her and Jacob.
Yes, but the execution of this dynamic lacks depth because beyond some arguments, this penchant for tradition has no profound impact on Jacob. There's no interesting dynamic. Connor and Achilles were interesting because not only did they argue, they called each other out on BS, they challenged each other and then they finally made up and admitted their wrongs.

Let's take Arno and Elise, they're the closest to Jacob and Evie in how they interact with each other. They're Assassin and Templar respectively. That's a very interesting backdrop, but, again, apart from Elise showing mistrust towards the Assassins, there's no interesting dynamic akin to Haytham and Connor. Arno and Elise don't call each other out on their beliefs, they don't argue, just nothing, there's nothing.

If there's no arc, at least have something substantial between your characters, make their traits interesting to watch. I really didn't get that at all from Evie. I was honestly trudging through the story and I kind of thought she was a **** to Jacob. Yeah, Jacob is a reckless fool, but she's supposedly the level headed twin. She offers very little advice and when she does, it's patronizing and aggressive. I wont delve into anymore because it happens later into the game.


She immediately finds a connection with Henry who shares her reverence for traditional assassin ways.
Which makes no sense since she's supposedly this stone cold Assassin who locked her heart and threw away the keys. This what I mean by interesting dynamics. Not that something happens, but HOW it happens and whether or not it's convincing.


It causes problems insofar that she's not open to ideas that don't fit her traditionalist view of an assassin.
It doesn't at all. She's against starting a gang and going in loud and dumb, but the next minute, she's totally fine with the Rooks and taking on gang leaders in gang wars. Her character shifts and jumps between traditional Assassin and Rook gangster whenever it's convenient.



As for all the other stuff, can't comment on those before finishing the story. Just pointing out that this is what I've observed so far.
Maybe that's why you don't agree with me :P




What do you mean one person? These are points I've seen posted many times over on the forums, YouTube and Tumblr.
Well, I thought you were referring to some of the fangirls here. As for my view on this, I think it's exaggerated. It's nothing compared to how Ezio fans are like. It's natural for someone who's a fan of someone who they view as underrated to think that people who don't like the character didn't pay enough attention or didn't look deeply enough to analyze things.


Yes, chasing pigs and collecting flowers was so meaningful to Connor's character arc. :rolleyes:
Gameplay presentation not withstanding, the stories behind these trivial sections are what count. I know you're not referring to all the missions, but even those two particular ones add something to the story of the homestead.


Helping Darwin et al was just a way to kill time basically, those characters didn't really help us learn anything about the twins.
They're just a part of the historical tourism aspect.


Except D*ckens, I would argue, since his introduction revealed that Jacob and Evie have different approaches to supernatural phenomena. (Jacob laughed at the idea when D*ckens asked if they believed in ghosts, Evie enthusiastically nodded "yes".)
I don't think Evie actually believes in ghosts. She nudges Jacob and says yes to get closer to D-ickens. Anything Evie does for others is to establish a strong network in London.


In the same sense, I think there is a LOT of fluff in the Homestead missions that show absolutely nothing about Connor.
Some missions here and there, maybe. A lot? I disagree.


But then there was crap like going back and forth between cities just to get some guy a hammer
I'll give you that one.


helping Norris blow up some cave
That was to find Achilles' outfit. Achilles' strand is one of the most important in the Homestead set of quests.


and doing all his courting work for him.
You never courted someone for a friend? Never helped them to think of gifts? It may be boring gameplay wise, but trivial little stories like this add humanity to a character who's angry at a world that just wont stop screwing him over.


The associate missions in Syndicate are more related to the overall theme of liberating London, just like ACB. That game also had a lot of nonsense, like collecting flags apparently somehow helped liberate Rome. Syndicate is driven by the same principle of having all missions tie into the overall goal. There is some ACB-like weirdness there that feels out of place, like the races and fight clubs. Stuff that doesn't seem to have anything to do with liberating London and don't make a lot of sense for the characters to waste their time on. It's a difficult balance to strike, I imagine, designing missions that are simultaneously fun and make sense for the plot/characters.
I don't think every side mission needs to tie into one single theme. Witcher III, for example, has side quests that focus on the theme of the politics of the war going on, side quests that deal with the history of Witchers, side quests that deal with lore and finally side quests that are just plain silly. Nothing wrong with ACB's approach, but it's not a bad thing if another approach is taken.


It's funny that you say Evie feels more like an afterthought, because I often have the opposite feeling. I feel like Jacob's character is pretty boring and cliché, just another brash, fun-loving male protagonist that they needed to sell the game.
I think they're both boring as hell, believe me. The only memorable characters from this game for me are Pearl, Starrick and Roth. I'm singling Evie out because everyone seems to like her a lot.


All the stealth missions (including Templar hunts and gang hideouts) seem tailored for Evie
Well, Jacob takes most of the important blackbox missions, so.


I feel Evie could have easily carried the game on her own had Ubi only had the balls to make a main title with a female protagonist. But it feels like they came up with the idea of twins because they weren't sure how well the game would sell if she was the sole hero. To me it's Jacob who feels like the afterthought.
I feel the opposite. I would love a game with an only female lead, but Evie? They dodged a bullet, I'd say.

AdrianJacek
12-08-2015, 06:21 AM
Yes, chasing pigs and collecting flowers was so meaningful to Connor's character arc. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/rolleyes.png

Actually, yes.

"Norris is trying to-- court...a woman. What do-- you-- women, like...in terms of gifts." - that mission showcases his virgin-ness. This alongside one dialogue with Dobby tells us he cares more about his work for now. As he doesn't have time to give a woman what she deserves.

"The things I do for this place." - that mission shows his devotion to the Homestead and its people. He's willing to do the most menial tasks.

SixKeys
12-08-2015, 01:48 PM
Which makes no sense since she's supposedly this stone cold Assassin who locked her heart and threw away the keys. This what I mean by interesting dynamics. Not that something happens, but HOW it happens and whether or not it's convincing.

What? Since when is she stone-cold? There are several moments in the game where she shows that there's a mischievous, fun-loving side to her, like when Jacob suggests they go to London. You can see she kinda wants to go along with his idea because it sounds like an adventure, but she has to justify it to herself through work. Like "oh yeah, we can totally go to Hawaii as long as it's for.....research". :p She's just reluctant to let her light-hearted side show because she feels like she should be more mature. She smiles a lot throughout the game, even when her brother is annoying her, and she's warm around Henry. Being an efficient assassin doesn't have to mean you're cold-hearted.



It doesn't at all. She's against starting a gang and going in loud and dumb, but the next minute, she's totally fine with the Rooks and taking on gang leaders in gang wars. Her character shifts and jumps between traditional Assassin and Rook gangster whenever it's convenient.

This is a legitimate criticism I can get on board with. But then, the same can be said for Jacob, who vascillates between brash, foolhardy mobster and master of stealth. The devs should have simply locked down the different mission types for whichever assassin seemed more appropriate. Jacob for races, fight clubs and gang wars, Evie for anything that requires stealth. But I think they were afraid to do that, so they allowed players to freely switch between characters except in the biggest stealth missions which they reserved for Jacob for no reason.

Maybe that's why you don't agree with me :P



Well, I thought you were referring to some of the fangirls here. As for my view on this, I think it's exaggerated. It's nothing compared to how Ezio fans are like. It's natural for someone who's a fan of someone who they view as underrated to think that people who don't like the character didn't pay enough attention or didn't look deeply enough to analyze things.

On this we agree. You asked me to provide examples of traits that people read into Connor's character that I don't think were necessarily supported by the script, and I provided them. It's not my intention to argue whether it's wrong or right to do that, just answering your question.



I don't think Evie actually believes in ghosts. She nudges Jacob and says yes to get closer to D-ickens. Anything Evie does for others is to establish a strong network in London.

You could be right, I may have misread her expression.



That was to find Achilles' outfit. Achilles' strand is one of the most important in the Homestead set of quests.

Fair enough. I didn't remember Norris was part of the Achilles missions.



You never courted someone for a friend? Never helped them to think of gifts?

No. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to do their work for them. You want a boy/girlfriend? Go after them your damn self. Especially if they were as thankless about it as Norris.



I don't think every side mission needs to tie into one single theme. Witcher III, for example, has side quests that focus on the theme of the politics of the war going on, side quests that deal with the history of Witchers, side quests that deal with lore and finally side quests that are just plain silly. Nothing wrong with ACB's approach, but it's not a bad thing if another approach is taken.

Sure, nothing wrong[ with it exactly but AC4 and ACB are the only ones to do that before ACS. Most games end up with a lot of ex tempore excursions to stuff that has nothing to do with the main quest. AC has been notorious for it. I'm happy that they're trying this approach again for a change.



Well, Jacob takes most of the important blackbox missions, so.

Yes, he does, and like I said, I feel like they were originally tailored for Evie. As in, Evie was planned to do at least a few of them but they were worried about having a female character be so prominent in gameplay, so they gave most of them to her brother, even though it doesn't really seem like something he would do. This is what I mean when I say Jacob is the one who feels like an afterthought.



I feel the opposite. I would love a game with an only female lead, but Evie? They dodged a bullet, I'd say.

Well, obviously we'll just have to agree to disagree at this point. She has more personality than Aveline and Shao Jun, at least.


Actually, yes.

"Norris is trying to-- court...a woman. What do-- you-- women, like...in terms of gifts." - that mission showcases his virgin-ness. This alongside one dialogue with Dobby tells us he cares more about his work for now. As he doesn't have time to give a woman what she deserves.

Lol, and his virginity is relevant to the plot or his character development because....?



"The things I do for this place." - that mission shows his devotion to the Homestead and its people. He's willing to do the most menial tasks.

Yeah, but we do all kinds of menial BS in every game. It doesn't make the characters noble, it means it's a video game and video game characters always have to do pointless crap for everyone else for some reason. When Ezio delivered a bunch of letters and had a punchout with random cheaters, did that reveal how devoted he was to each individual city in Italy and their inhabitants?

AdrianJacek
12-08-2015, 03:07 PM
@SixKeys
And yet, pig herding showcased Connor's character (and inspired some fanart, to boot!) but letter delivering did no such thing for Ezio (and no fanart of courier Ezio. As far as I'm aware...).

Oh, and Ezio delivered the letters for money. Connor helped the Homestead residents because he cared.

ImaginaryRuins
12-08-2015, 03:54 PM
I personally like Jacob more than Evie. For female assassins I like Shao Jun more.

Nickyhaswifi
12-08-2015, 07:28 PM
Ok... I don't know how this turned into a conversation about Connor...


She's smart.
She's a nerd obsessed with lore like the hardcore fans on this forum.
She's shrewd and cunning - the way she played Lucy Thorne like a fiddle by getting her to reveal info about the shroud and she seemed to have all he historical figures eatinf out of her hand.
She's really pretty.
She has a big heart and her love for her father is touching.

Hans684
12-08-2015, 07:34 PM
Dame Perfect, so much to like there's nothing to like. The perfection is imperfection.

Assassin_M
12-08-2015, 07:50 PM
What? Since when is she stone-cold? There are several moments in the game where she shows that there's a mischievous, fun-loving side to her, like when Jacob suggests they go to London. You can see she kinda wants to go along with his idea because it sounds like an adventure, but she has to justify it to herself through work. Like "oh yeah, we can totally go to Hawaii as long as it's for.....research". :p She's just reluctant to let her light-hearted side show because she feels like she should be more mature. She smiles a lot throughout the game, even when her brother is annoying her, and she's warm around Henry. Being an efficient assassin doesn't have to mean you're cold-hearted.
This is exactly what I mean. You'll see later in the game why I say she's supposed to be a stone cold killer who closed her heart to outside distractions.


This is a legitimate criticism I can get on board with.
Are you saying my other criticisms are not legit? :rolleyes:


But then, the same can be said for Jacob, who vascillates between brash, foolhardy mobster and master of stealth. The devs should have simply locked down the different mission types for whichever assassin seemed more appropriate. Jacob for races, fight clubs and gang wars, Evie for anything that requires stealth. But I think they were afraid to do that, so they allowed players to freely switch between characters except in the biggest stealth missions which they reserved for Jacob for no reason.
I don't like either of them, I swear xD


On this we agree. You asked me to provide examples of traits that people read into Connor's character that I don't think were necessarily supported by the script, and I provided them.
Everything you mentioned is perfectly supported by the script :p



No. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to do their work for them. You want a boy/girlfriend? Go after them your damn self. Especially if they were as thankless about it as Norris.
Well, you and I are opposites then, lol. That was basically my high school life.


Sure, nothing wrong[ with it exactly but AC4 and ACB are the only ones to do that before ACS. Most games end up with a lot of ex tempore excursions to stuff that has nothing to do with the main quest. AC has been notorious for it. I'm happy that they're trying this approach again for a change.
But why should that be notorious? Like I said, not everything has to directly feed into the main narrative. Things like leisure activities such as drinking, gambling...etc are ways to offer more immersion, to ground the player in the game's world.


Yes, he does, and like I said, I feel like they were originally tailored for Evie. As in, Evie was planned to do at least a few of them but they were worried about having a female character be so prominent in gameplay, so they gave most of them to her brother, even though it doesn't really seem like something he would do. This is what I mean when I say Jacob is the one who feels like an afterthought.
But even loud people such Edward used stealth efficiently. Being loud and reckless doesn't mean you're an idiot. Pretty sure even a block head like Jacob could see that he can't infiltrate a target's base without being stealthy. Sure, he prefers a good brawl, but he knows when to keep his head down and hood up.


She has more personality than Aveline and Shao Jun, at least.
More than Shao Jun, yeah, but Aveline? You're right. Just gonna A to D, Aveline was amazing.

Assassin_M
12-08-2015, 07:52 PM
Ok... I don't know how this turned into a conversation about Connor...
Comparisons. It could very well turn into a conversation about Ezio soon.


She's shrewd and cunning - the way she played Lucy Thorne like a fiddle by getting her to reveal info about the shroud and she seemed to have all he historical figures eatinf out of her hand.
I don't remember that happening?


She's really pretty.

If people can like how she dresses, I can they like her for being pretty. Does this mean you wouldn't like her as much if she wasn't pretty?

SixKeys
12-08-2015, 10:35 PM
Ok... I don't know how this turned into a conversation about Connor...

It's a curse.



Are you saying my other criticisms are not legit? :rolleyes:

We wouldn't be having this discussion if I thought they were. :p



Everything you mentioned is perfectly supported by the script :p

Really? At what point did Connor's PTSD come into play? Which scene was it where he was bullied by women?



But why should that be notorious? Like I said, not everything has to directly feed into the main narrative. Things like leisure activities such as drinking, gambling...etc are ways to offer more immersion, to ground the player in the game's world.

Because there's always a certain amount of ludonarrative dissonance that comes with leisure activities. It's not just Ubi who does it, almost every developer does. I understand why they put that stuff there, they just want to allow the player to explore the world and have fun in a way that doesn't drive the plot forward, like playing mini-games. In a game like AC it's just unintentionally funny that the protagonist would halt their pursuit for Templars who want to take over the world, just so they can go play chess or deliver letters or look for treasure for a while. It's not more immersive if those actions make no sense for the character. RDR had a lot of pointless mini-games, but its story wasn't as urgently paced as AC.

One exception to the rule that I can think of was when Haytham played board games while on the ship to America. That was immersive, because it made perfect sense. It's a long journey, he no doubt got bored and didn't have much else to do. It didn't really make sense for Connor, though, who was so driven and preoccupied with his quest. If he didn't have time to meet women, how did he have time for Twelve Men's Morris? :p

For Edward those activities also made more sense because he was more of a pirate than an assassin. He didn't have the same sense of responsibility.



But even loud people such Edward used stealth efficiently. Being loud and reckless doesn't mean you're an idiot.

Um, yes, yes it does. "Reckless" is the exact opposite of being stealthy. :p Reckless means not considering where your actions might lead. There's a difference between hiding in plain view even while being flamboyant - like Ezio using courtesans - and just being irresponsible and not thinking ahead. Jacob is, at times, both. Sometimes he shows he can be smart, other times he's too impatient to think about what he's doing so he just does the first thing that occurs to him.



More than Shao Jun, yeah, but Aveline? You're right. Just gonna A to D, Aveline was amazing.

I'm genuinely baffled how anyone would describe Aveline's personality, let alone think she's more interesting than Evie, but I don't want this to get off-topic again.



If people can like how she dresses, I can they like her for being pretty. Does this mean you wouldn't like her as much if she wasn't pretty?

Let's be real: a lot of Ezio and Connor fans are fans because they find those characters hot. ;)

Hans684
12-08-2015, 11:12 PM
Well Aveline is more interesting because she isn't perfect and the story itself has both orders shown as bad. It's not exactly gray, it's black vs black. Only game with that if I'm right, but it's whole other discussion.

cawatrooper9
12-08-2015, 11:21 PM
Yeah, but Evie's cool because she evolves differently based on what Piece of Eden you give to her.

pacmanate
12-08-2015, 11:23 PM
Hmm, well I like Evie cause

1. Not sexualised
2. Good personality
3. Good motives/Sticks by the Creed/Loyal (Not saying this is a draw point for me, cause I like Edward the most, but its the consistency that was nice)
4. Great voice acting
5. Consistent character development/portrayal
6. Not overpowered because she is a female/Not underpowered because she is a female (basically treated the same as a male character which makes you "forget" she is female... if that makes sense)

BUT

I definitely think so many people jumped on the Evie bandwagon pre release purely because she was a woman.

Nickyhaswifi
12-09-2015, 12:09 AM
I don't remember that happening?

It was during their first confrontation and in Evie's diary she revealed that was her plan.


If people can like how she dresses, I can they like her for being pretty. Does this mean you wouldn't like her as much if she wasn't pretty?

No. I would still like her. Her beauty is just the icing on the cake.

Eduard413
12-09-2015, 02:00 AM
Evie is overrated - well, she is better than Aveline and she is not a bad character, but she just acts like a normal teenage girl - just cares about Handsome Henry Green (who was awesome btw and I would be happy to play as him) anyway, she just complains how Jacob is stupid (she sounded like normal teenage girl = Oh my God, you boys are so stupid and inmature! we girls are better and smarter, we don't cheat you and we care about how you treat us and blah blah... but I am an Assassin, Girl Assassin! and I have a Hidden Blade so I am really bad *** woman and best character EVER! What I liked about her was that she really cared about the Pieces of Eden because Pieces of Eden rulez!!! and also she had a good voice and of course, she looked really nice
And Jacob was more badass and better character + more funny unlike her and also, he actually Liberated London not her, even if he made mistakes he was the one who liberated London not her
I actually think Lydia was more interesting character than Evie even if she had just one Sequence in WW1

If there would be a twins duo - Jacob and, Female Comander Shepard, well that would be better :D

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 03:36 PM
Evie is overrated - well, she is better than Aveline and she is not a bad character, but she just acts like a normal teenage girl - just cares about Handsome Henry Green (who was awesome btw and I would be happy to play as him) anyway, she just complains how Jacob is stupid (she sounded like normal teenage girl = Oh my God, you boys are so stupid and inmature! we girls are better and smarter, we don't cheat you and we care about how you treat us and blah blah... but I am an Assassin, Girl Assassin! and I have a Hidden Blade so I am really bad *** woman and best character EVER! What I liked about her was that she really cared about the Pieces of Eden because Pieces of Eden rulez!!! and also she had a good voice and of course, she looked really nice
And Jacob was more badass and better character + more funny unlike her and also, he actually Liberated London not her, even if he made mistakes he was the one who liberated London not her
I actually think Lydia was more interesting character than Evie even if she had just one Sequence in WW1

If there would be a twins duo - Jacob and, Female Comander Shepard, well that would be better :D

You do realize that Evie and Jacob liberated London together, right? Notice how they're both present after gang fights- Jacob doesn't say "You work for me", they both say "You work for us".

Just because you used Jacob to do activities doesn't necessarily mean that's the only canonical way that it happened.

Kaschra
12-09-2015, 04:58 PM
Evie is overrated - well, she is better than Aveline and she is not a bad character, but she just acts like a normal teenage girl - just cares about Handsome Henry Green (who was awesome btw and I would be happy to play as him) anyway, she just complains how Jacob is stupid (she sounded like normal teenage girl = Oh my God, you boys are so stupid and inmature! we girls are better and smarter, we don't cheat you and we care about how you treat us and blah blah... but I am an Assassin, Girl Assassin! and I have a Hidden Blade so I am really bad *** woman and best character EVER! What I liked about her was that she really cared about the Pieces of Eden because Pieces of Eden rulez!!! and also she had a good voice and of course, she looked really nice
And Jacob was more badass and better character + more funny unlike her and also, he actually Liberated London not her, even if he made mistakes he was the one who liberated London not her
I actually think Lydia was more interesting character than Evie even if she had just one Sequence in WW1

If there would be a twins duo - Jacob and, Female Comander Shepard, well that would be better :D


No, Evie doesn't only care about Henry
Evie complains about Jacob's behaviour because he is completely reckless
She never said nor implied that girls are better and smarter than boys
No, both Jacob AND Evie liberated London together

SixKeys
12-09-2015, 09:48 PM
Evie is overrated - well, she is better than Aveline and she is not a bad character, but she just acts like a normal teenage girl - just cares about Handsome Henry Green (who was awesome btw and I would be happy to play as him) anyway, she just complains how Jacob is stupid (she sounded like normal teenage girl = Oh my God, you boys are so stupid and inmature! we girls are better and smarter, we don't cheat you and we care about how you treat us and blah blah... but I am an Assassin, Girl Assassin! and I have a Hidden Blade so I am really bad *** woman and best character EVER!

Yeah, I hate how the male assassins are always like "OMG, I am a Boy Assassin! I have a hidden blade, so I am a really badass man and best character EVER!". :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
12-09-2015, 11:43 PM
I like both Evie and Jacob. The way they're written though, it doesn't really make sense to me to look at them separately, they kind of together form a whole.

Speaking of the romance plot for Evie, though, I actually like that it's not a big deal in the game and that it's more of a 'pre-steps to first date' rather than a 'love story', gives it more grounding in reality (except that cutscene when you collect all the pressed flowers that makes absolutely no ****ing sense in the context of the game even if you see it after the end of the game)

Ceelaris
12-11-2015, 11:57 AM
Let me just agree with almost everything that SixKeys brought up... :D

More random thoughts:

For me, both twins would be much more boring if they were on their own. Their differences make them more interesting, and make their faults more obvious and impactful on the story.
Jacob is fun to play, not taking anything too seriously and just feeling invincible. Playing as him is making me feel carefree as well. Evie is much more serious (or tried to be at least), and playing as her made me feel very in control and resourceful. Like I knew why I was doing something in the grander scheme of things, whereas Jacob worked for short-term goals. The thing that made Evie more interesting than Jacob to me was that conflict within herself, though. She tried to be this responsible, serious, determined adult that could not be distracted by anything. With Jacob being so confidently carefree (even reckless), she basically has no other choice than to become the serious half of the duo. But she also has a lighthearted side that I absolutely loved when it showed, like when they get childishly competitive ("Race you to the train?" - "You're on." - and both just take off without a second thought)

I really love how Evie gets so excited about Assassin lore. She's not doing it for anyone or anything, she just loves these items and info she comes across (and I can absolutely identify with that). Imho that is also why she is drawn to Henry so quickly, she basically applied her love for these details to the first person (as far as we see) who shared this love.

I don't think the romance was Evie's main story vehicle though - it was romance vs. "the mission". Basically, "Evie as an Assassin operative" vs. "Evie as a human being". And imho learning that she can find a way to be both was a lesson she sorely needed.

(However, I absolutely agree with the criticism of the post-gang war cut scenes. It was just plain weird for Evie to be there at all, let alone give a speech about how everyone was working for the Rooks now. I guess that was the only way they could think of to have the gang wars playable by both twins and not have it look disconnected if you played it with Evie, but then only Jacob would be there all of a sudden...)

By contrast, I absolutely loved how the romance plot unfolded. I have heard comments that some people didn't see it coming and were surprised when Henry "suddenly" proposed to Evie, but I love the romance for being so subtle. It reminded me a lot of Jane Austen's novels (and I'd argue that you can spot their budding love easily if you're used to how Austen and others describe people falling in love).
(Another, very personal reason for me to adore Evie+Henry: I'm also a Caucasian in a relationship with a South Asian, and goodness I had no idea representation felt so EFFING GREAT!)

I played almost everything I could as Evie. On top of all the other reasons why I prefer Evie, we've played as so many "brash, confident, young dudes" that the chance to play someone different would have been enough of an incentive. I'm SO glad Evie isn't oversexualized because that would have been really uncomfortable to play. I normally don't care about a character's looks or way of walking/moving, and least of all their clothes, but with a 3rd person view like in AC, where I actually see the character ALL THE TIME, I do care. And Evie is just more interesting in all of these aspects. This MIGHT simply be due to her being a woman, but I don't remember noticing it with Aveline (whose "lady" persona dress I like, but was very bored by very quickly. I think you could only change the colour of some parts, but not the actual dress?). So I'm putting it down to Evie herself being nicely animated/motion-captured.

Lastly, my two cents on the twins' incentive for going to London. To me, it was quite understandable... They were given that first mission (in the game) by their teacher like it was a lesson, meeting up with him and discussing results afterwards. But it seems natural for people their age to want to leave constant supervision behind and explore the world and the unknown. I sure remember I was like that! That scene also shows Evie's conflict again, she wants to go to London just as much as Jacob, but she feels the need to be the responsible one.

ImaginaryRuins
12-12-2015, 04:33 AM
I have to say I don't particularly like Evie, mainly because she shows less character development compared to Jacob. Though of course, that could be the fault of Ubisoft's storytelling or mission planning.

Jacob discovering Pearl was a Templar was a rather important moment for him - he trusted the wrong person. Then he cut ties wtih Roth immediatley after learning that Roth intended to sacrifice innocent children. Jacob finally sees the danger of complete freedom - turned to chaos and burned the entire opera house. You can tell how he was affected by that mission if you go straight to Sequence 9. He returned to the train hideout in a foul mood, perhaps reflecting on his experience with Roth and his own way of dealing with problems.

SunderedStar
12-12-2015, 06:11 AM
Evie to me represent what an assassin should be to a greater degree. Stealthy.

The girl being the uh...more subtle one while the guy being the more brash fisticuffs one was kinda generic, but that's kinda the reality of biology. I suppose Arno and Elise were the other way around in that regard.

SixKeys
12-12-2015, 06:12 PM
Evie to me represent what an assassin should be to a greater degree. Stealthy.

The girl being the uh...more subtle one while the guy being the more brash fisticuffs one was kinda generic, but that's kinda the reality of biology. I suppose Arno and Elise were the other way around in that regard.

If Elise and Arno were the other way around, then it's not the reality of biology.

I-Like-Pie45
12-12-2015, 06:36 PM
based on what bar room bouncers can attest, women are actually more violent when provoked so if anything evie should have been the brash one and jacob the stealthy one

SunderedStar
12-13-2015, 04:12 AM
If Elise and Arno were the other way around, then it's not the reality of biology.

Ah yes, if 99% of people are one way, then obviously the 1% who aren't that way are the rule and not the exception, right?

SixKeys
12-13-2015, 04:34 AM
Ah yes, if 99% of people are one way, then obviously the 1% who aren't that way are the rule and not the exception, right?

You just used one example to claim that because these two people are this way, that makes it a biological reality. I pointed out that that's a flimsy claim since I can just as easily name a couple that is different. Where did you suddenly get 99% from?

whatr_those
12-13-2015, 04:57 AM
Because they do.

Nickyhaswifi
12-14-2015, 09:25 PM
Even Jacob seems to think Evie is the cat's pajamas - just went on the train and he said "Evie, a man couldn't have a better sister." Awww.

ACfan443
12-15-2015, 01:26 PM
I think it's because she's a refreshing antithesis to Jacob, who's probably the most unbearable protagonist of any AC game (at least during the first half, I haven't fully completed the campaign yet).

Eddo36
12-15-2015, 03:38 PM
Because she's a girl.

BlackSassyWolf
12-15-2015, 04:11 PM
Because she's a girl.
^This^ Or least this seems to be the reason.
Personally, I'm not a fan of Evie at all. I find her obsession with finding POE a little disturbing. Plus, I much prefer Jacobs personality.

cawatrooper9
12-15-2015, 05:24 PM
Because she's a girl.

Honestly, yeah, some people like that about her- and there's nothing wrong with that.

Some people might not think that it's fair that, for instance, Evie gets a lot of attention whereas a character like Arno doesn't have that going for him- and maybe it isn't fair, but neither is the fact that Evie is (almost a decade into the series) the first female protagonist in a major console release.

In a way, it's sort of like the affirmative action of video games- it may not be equal access to everyone currently involved, but it rectifies mistakes of the past.

briangade
12-17-2015, 09:22 AM
First of I have not played Syndicate so my opinion is based on the two playthroughs I have seen,so you can take my opinion for what it is.

I like Evie a lot,and sort of hope we get to see her in a game again.To me she semed the most assassin like of the two.
I have to agree with what a lot of what have been said,and it's nice they did not oversexualize her,and she did not come across as a male character just fitted with boobs.
Whether she's a deep and complex character that's a different thing,but IMO she easily holds her own against most of the other protagonists ion the series.


Jacob,to me,looked like another glib "lovable rouge" type to make us go see he's a bit like Ezio the one you liked a lot.

Well that was my 2 cents anyway.

raytrek79
12-17-2015, 07:35 PM
I like both, they have a good banter with each other most of the time, they pretty much compliment each other as both Assassin's and as personalities and I wouldn't expect them to be anything special without each other. Evie is a Men of Letters role to Jacob's Hunter, but both can hold their own on the visa versa. Evie is the making of an excellent future Mentor or even head of the Brotherhood, she can be political and strategic yet not forget or compromise real purpose.

I tend to think Evie could have very easily taken a desk job like Greenie, but the opposite happened, she got Greenie back out into the field. Being a bookworm has its use but the best Assassin's can read and wield a blade.

Arcadia1886
12-18-2015, 01:06 AM
Because Evie has the assassin's profile, Jacob is immature, childish, I like them both, but It's good to play with a woman, and she is cute. :P

Sesheenku
12-18-2015, 01:27 AM
Because Evie has the assassin's profile, Jacob is immature, childish, I like them both, but It's good to play with a woman, and she is cute. :P

Ewww that post was cringy,

He's not immature just harsh and rather brutal. Evie is calm but also dull. Well... they're both dull as dishwater really. Even Desmond has more personality.

SixKeys
12-18-2015, 04:32 AM
Jacob is annoying with his constant talking to himself, a la "Now, how should I enter this facility? Hmmm. My, my. I see my target is on the move. I should pay him a little visit" etc. Just STFU already.

Adryn Bliss
12-18-2015, 04:39 AM
Jacob comes off as a meat head that didn't learn a thing from the whole experience, Evie at least took something from it all. Though that said, A character doesn't HAVE to learn a valuable lesson at the end, that's a trope we've become kind of stuck too.

People have described joacob as brutal but what of evie's finishers? there is no need to kill people that way, she chooses to. The thing about her is she still has a brutal and reckless side, she did choose to abandon the brotherhood and take her own targets, did she not, but she also has the studious and calm side, jacob is one dimensional, evie has more facets to her personality.

orionsrise
12-19-2015, 08:21 AM
I've tried to ponder this question as best as I can and to try to answer the OP's question, I think Evie's appeal is because of the fact that she is different. And that might not seem like much on the surface of things (ooo a different gender very original) but in a way it subtly IS very different. Now in my opinion, both characters suffer from the twin curse, (because they are born at the same time, they're personalities have to be mirrored. Jacob is too brash and extroverted and Evie is too conservative and introverted. Might also be a bit sexist too with gender roles but I digress.) Suffering at this convenient (and lazy) plot device are some key things about their personalities. We know that they are brought up into the creed from birth, but what would that look like? It kind of looks Exactly like these two twins. If you are Brash and think with your fists, you take the fight right to the enemy. If your conservative, you look at what you think the big picture is, which are these magical artifacts and keeping them out of the hands of your enemy. Jacobs tries to keep the creed his way, Evie tries to keep the creed her way, An interesting shift in Evie comes right at the beginning when Jacob convinces her to go to London in the first place. We can safely assume that this decision is WAY outside of her comfort zone about following orders and yet she makes it. It sets up a didactic question that needs to be answered by the player. Can the Creed be broken to save it? Jacob has to answer the question in a different way. More like can you break the Creed beyond repair. I think Evies point of view here is more of a different stroke than anything since Altiar. Though I have to admit that the romance arc was like wtf? but at the same time, had I completed the flowers collection postgame instead of before hand, might it have changed the arc a little? I don't know that for sure. Well I hope I added a little something to help you out, if not then I never said it.:rolleyes:

Farlander1991
12-19-2015, 11:25 AM
Jacob is annoying with his constant talking to himself, a la "Now, how should I enter this facility? Hmmm. My, my. I see my target is on the move. I should pay him a little visit" etc. Just STFU already.

As opposed to Evie's constant talking to herself, a la "I must create a diverson. I'm on my way, sir David. Lots of guards, Thorne is inside, better stick to the shadows. I can't believe Jacob did this, Father was right about him"? :rolleyes:

Megas_Doux
12-19-2015, 03:03 PM
Jacob is annoying with his constant talking to himself, a la "Now, how should I enter this facility? Hmmm. My, my. I see my target is on the move. I should pay him a little visit" etc. Just STFU already.

I REALLY like that!!

Iin fact I would love there's more of that stuff while freeroaming like in The Witcher, for instance.

whatr_those
12-19-2015, 06:03 PM
I agree with the OP, though. Evie was lacking in character; all hype and no delivery.

This is why women are objectified on the scale that they are; a significant amount of them are boring, predictable and lacking in substance -- only caring about their looks (though Evie is much more unique than most of the cardboard women in Syndicate); all they have going for them, more often than not, is their beauty, leaving men with nothing else to appreciate *but* their appearance, resulting in objectification. A nice analog is how a pondering viewer of an artistic piece 'objectifies' the work of da Vinci, Picasso or Michelangelo.

A woman with only beauty and no substance is asking to be objectified. Not to say that Evie was *just* beauty and no personality or depth, no, no, no; but she could have used a lot of work in the substance department, I agree.

Anywho, to actually answer the OP's question instead of talking about the objectification of women: Most like her either because (a) she's hawt, (b) she looks cool in her Brotherhood-esque robes, (c) she's the stealthy one, or (d) all of the aforementioned. More precisely, the majority of her fans, from my observations, don't like her because of anything like uniqueness, character depth or personality. I say this as one of her fans who only likes her because of (a) and (b) in particular.

Sesheenku
12-19-2015, 10:47 PM
Evie is a bland as hell *****.

whatr_those
12-19-2015, 11:03 PM
Jacob is annoying with his constant talking to himself, a la "Now, how should I enter this facility? Hmmm. My, my. I see my target is on the move. I should pay him a little visit" etc. Just STFU already.
I might be wrong, but I'm 100% sure that Evie talks to herself as well.

wickywoowoo
12-19-2015, 11:12 PM
Regardless of the character and personality of Evie, the fact Syndicate featured a character that, in theory, you could play the whole game as outside the Jacob story missions and little was mentioned of it by the people who whinged constantly when Unity didn't have one is hypocrisy.

Ubisoft gave them what they wanted and no recognition. The only real mention was dual lead characters and twins. The lead female thing was VITAL last year but this year.... means nothing.

Ubisoft cannot win.

whatr_those
12-19-2015, 11:19 PM
Ubisoft cannot win.
You're right. Most, if not all, of us in this thread are just a bunch of ungrateful, hypocritical manchildren who are never pleased no matter what Ubisoft does.

Just look at us: First, we were complaining about there being no female lead (I'll admit, I did this), and now we (myself included) are tearing that female lead down for her flaws, as few as they are (it's really just her personality that needed a little more work), without any hesitation.

We are all just a bunch of infantile f*ggots.

inb4 "Speak for yourself," or something of the like.

wickywoowoo
12-19-2015, 11:22 PM
You're right. Most, if not all, of us in this thread are just a bunch of ungrateful, hypocritical manchildren who are never pleased no matter what Ubisoft does.

Just look at us: First, we were complaining about there being no female lead (I'll admit, I did this), and now we (myself included) are tearing that female lead down for her flaws, as few as they are (it's really just her personality that needed a little more work), without any hesitation.

We are all just a bunch of infantile f*ggots.

inb4 "Speak for yourself," or something of the like.

Glad you agree.

Assassin_M
12-20-2015, 12:19 AM
Okay, buddies. Next time, when Ubisoft introduces a feature you don't like or releases a "bad" game, don't whine. Love it. If I hear a single one of you whining and moaning again, I will personally come to your houses and throw pie at your faces.

ze_topazio
12-20-2015, 12:52 AM
What kind of pie are we talking about?

Assassin_M
12-20-2015, 01:07 AM
What kind of pie are we talking about?
Bear pie

whatr_those
12-20-2015, 01:09 AM
Bear pie! I love bear pie!

Ceelaris
12-20-2015, 03:09 AM
This is why women are objectified on the scale that they are; a significant amount of them are boring, predictable and lacking in substance -- only caring about their looks (though Evie is much more unique than most of the cardboard women in Syndicate); all they have going for them, more often than not, is their beauty, leaving men with nothing else to appreciate *but* their appearance, resulting in objectification.

A significant amount of women are boring, predictable, and lacking in substance? As opposed to men, all of whom are inherently interesting, do charmingly unpredictable things, and have a wonderful, faceted personality? All while probably also looking effortlessly handsome, without realising it or using it for their ends of course? Wow.

Assassin_M
12-20-2015, 03:43 AM
A significant amount of women are boring, predictable, and lacking in substance? As opposed to men, all of whom are inherently interesting, do charmingly unpredictable things, and have a wonderful, faceted personality? All while probably also looking effortlessly handsome, without realising it or using it for their ends of course? Wow.
Reread the post. They're talking about the ones being objectified that are that way, not all women.

ze_topazio
12-20-2015, 03:46 AM
Bear pie

That doesn't sound very tasty.

Ceelaris
12-20-2015, 03:52 AM
Reread the post. They're talking about the ones being objectified that are that way, not all women.

Erm, no.
The post said "why women are objectified" = "a significant amount of women are boring etc.", "only care about their appearance", which "results in objectification".

Assassin_M
12-20-2015, 04:34 AM
Erm, no.
The post said "why women are objectified" = "a significant amount of women are boring etc.", "only care about their appearance", which "results in objectification".
Read it again, that's not what they said. Give some benefit of the doubt. Don't argue for the sake of arguing.

SixKeys
12-20-2015, 01:04 PM
As opposed to Evie's constant talking to herself, a la "I must create a diverson. I'm on my way, sir David. Lots of guards, Thorne is inside, better stick to the shadows. I can't believe Jacob did this, Father was right about him"? :rolleyes:

Good point. Maybe Jacob just annoys me because he tries to be funny but isn't. Evie is just matter-of-fact about things.

Farlander1991
12-20-2015, 02:27 PM
Good point. Maybe Jacob just annoys me because he tries to be funny but isn't. Evie is just matter-of-fact about things.

Yeah, I can see that, even though Jacob doesn't bother me. I like both Evie and Jacob and they both make me smile so I don't mind the remarks they make.

Mr.Black24
12-21-2015, 06:21 AM
Good point. Maybe Jacob just annoys me because he tries to be funny but isn't. Evie is just matter-of-fact about things.
To be fair, since no one is around, Jacob isn't trying to do a comedy stand. I like rather, it reflects their mindsets on the situation in front of them. Instead, I think your just annoyed by his recklessness, which is a fair opinion as well.

For me, I have a 20% percent more preference for Evie as she is a fresh breath of air after the usual "charismatic and reckless" male protags we had in the last 3 games. Especially she has that cold and calculating Altair Lite vib goin on.

Plus, I don't get why some dislike her jabbing at Jacob. That's just how older siblings correct the younger's actions. I do the same with mine when they screw up in a way that could have been totally avoided.

SixKeys
12-22-2015, 03:59 AM
To be fair, since no one is around, Jacob isn't trying to do a comedy stand. I like rather, it reflects their mindsets on the situation in front of them. Instead, I think your just annoyed by his recklessness, which is a fair opinion as well.

No, I don't have a problem with his recklessness. If anything, I have a problem with the fact that Jacob is supposedly the reckless one yet he gets almost all the stealth missions. It doesn't make sense for his character.
His internal dialogue just annoys me because of the way he speaks. Where Evie talks to herself in a very matter-of-fact way, making note of all the possible opportunities, Jacob is always saying stuff like "Now, where would I hide if I were an evil mastermind bent on controlling the world? Looks like I need to have a "little talk" with my target. What a perfect evening for a bit of chaos" etc.

FWIW, I get annoyed in other AC games too when the protagonist talks excessively to himself about the most obvious things. ("Perfect! A route up if I fall.") Evie's only marginally less annoying because she sounds like she's planning instead of just rambling.

I-Like-Pie45
12-22-2015, 04:27 AM
How do you know that they're talking to themselves

How do you know that they aren't just thinking to themselves and your hearing their thoughts out loud

SixKeys
12-22-2015, 05:17 AM
How do you know that they're talking to themselves

How do you know that they aren't just thinking to themselves and your hearing their thoughts out loud

Their lips move during those scenes, so there is that. :p

Sesheenku
12-22-2015, 08:50 AM
Wow this thread's still on huh? (;´∀`)

PAN_1972
02-10-2016, 07:09 PM
Because she is the only playable Assassin character in Syndicate, that why.

ERICATHERINE
02-10-2016, 07:48 PM
Because she is the only playable Assassin character in Syndicate, that why.

You know that we can play as Jacob, in ac syndicate, right? :rolleyes:

Sorrosyss
02-10-2016, 07:52 PM
Technically there are three characters you play as. Four if you add the DLC.

:p

LoyalACFan
02-10-2016, 10:55 PM
You know that we can play as Jacob, in ac syndicate, right? :rolleyes:

Facetious post is facetious. AP72 was saying that Evie was the only one of the two that felt like an actual Assassin, versus a street-brawling knucklehead.

SpiritOfNevaeh
02-10-2016, 11:57 PM
Facetious post is facetious. AP72 was saying that Evie was the only one of the two that felt like an actual Assassin, versus a street-brawling knucklehead.

^ Pretty much this.

As for me, after finishing the game, (and if this was said already, I apologize, this is my first time in this thread and I didn't want to run into any spoilers) Evie was alright, and maybe people found her too "strict", for lack of a better word? But I've seen both sides of the coin - people that love her and people that despite her for many reasons.

She showed that she really was dedicated to protecting the brotherhood and she was more stealth based, which is what an assassin is supposed to be anyway, right? :p

VoldR
02-11-2016, 12:54 AM
Eh, I didn't think it was special. Nothing still beats Haytham/Connor banter or even Haytham/Ziio banter. That was gold

Isn't the question about between the twins themselves on why one is favoured over the other and not the whole AC world?

So does it matter if another pair is better at banter if they're not the topic of the question?

Its like someone winning a prize for a movie they're not even in it.
:)

I-Like-Pie45
02-11-2016, 01:40 AM
I bet Evie has hairy arms and legs so the constant itch is what makes her so grouchy and strict in her interactions with her brother

VoldR
02-11-2016, 12:21 PM
Technically there are three characters you play as. Four if you add the DLC.
:p

I tend to swap between characters during a mission if it allows it.

If it doesn't, and it depends on which character ur using when the mission starts, i play two rounds with both points of view and join the video to look like a coop. :)

cawatrooper9
02-11-2016, 09:13 PM
I tend to swap between characters during a mission if it allows it.


That rarely happens though, right?

Or have I been playing Syndicate wrong this entire time?

Jessigirl2013
02-11-2016, 11:12 PM
i think its because she respects all of the diehard AC fans who love the lore and story that this series is know for, that and she is also awesome :)

I agree, Its a nice change to have a assassin that values the creed like Ezio and Altair did.:cool:

PAN_1972
03-28-2016, 08:49 AM
There is only one answer to this, because Evie is the only playable assassin in the game. Sorry to say that but Jacob is just a brawler with some skills. (Just my opinion)

Jessigirl2013
03-28-2016, 02:34 PM
There is only one answer to this, because Evie is the only playable assassin in the game. Sorry to say that but Jacob is just a brawler with some skills. (Just my opinion)

You know they play the same way right?

All they have are a few different skills, but as someone who has played AC since the beginning they are hardly different playing as them.

ERICATHERINE
03-28-2016, 07:02 PM
There is only one answer to this, because Evie is the only playable assassin in the game. Sorry to say that but Jacob is just a brawler with some skills. (Just my opinion)

You don't like Lydia Frye? ^-^

Venetica1
04-02-2016, 09:45 PM
I actually prefer Jacob, but I liked Aveline in Liberation, a female assassin is nice, I'd love to play more, but picking between 2 characters was a brilliant idea, I loved the interaction between Jacob and Evie, pretty amusing often, I wouldn't describe Evie as bland, just not as wisecracking as Jacob, I guess its personal preference. :)

Agreed on the clothes, D.I.D, I loved them, very original, :)