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VernalBreak
12-02-2015, 10:43 PM
This is a list of all sorts of different combat features so vote for which ones you want. I am aware that there could be things I missed so put them in a comment below!


1) The ability to parry then kill your enemies like in ac3, black flag, and rogue.

2) counter attacking like in the earlier games where you would have to line it up and it would not always 1-hit

3) being invincible while parrying.

4) strafing to better position hits like in earlier games

5) having to block at the exact right time like in unity.

6) Faster lower damage like in syndicate

7) Putting enemies in near death state before they die like in unity and syndicate

8) Slower higher damage like in the original game and in unity.

9) art of battle system or some variety. The ability to directly tell your character where to attack and where to block.

10) other (please specify in comment)

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 10:59 PM
I voted for Parry Kills (like ACIII, I assume), counter attacking (like Ezio trilogy, I assume), faster lower damage, and slower higher damage.

Obviously some contradictions there, but I'm assuming that they could change it up every now and then. For instance, I really liked Syndicate's combat, but it's pretty much exclusive to a rough and tumble Victorian street punk- I'd feel like it wouldn't work at all for a game set in Medieval Ireland, for instance.

ERICATHERINE
12-02-2015, 11:08 PM
I vote for counter kills, with multi counter kills when more than 1 ennemi attack you. ^-^

Voidrek
12-02-2015, 11:36 PM
Combat is probably the main thing I would like to see improved. Most of my thoughts go towards making the enemies more varied and challenging. If they are going to stick to a leveling system, I would like to see new enemy types that you encounter in higher level areas. Rather than just making them hit harder or giving them more health, I would prefer if they were given new moves/weapons/tools to freshen things up as you go to harder areas of the city.

Syndicate would have been a perfect game to give something like that a shot. The way they broke each section of the city down into boroughs, each with a different type of gang leader. It would have been cool if each borough had a new enemy type inspired by their borough leader. So in Rexford Kaylock's borough, maybe his elite blighter would have a short range rope launcher that they use in combat against you. Then when you fight Kaylock himself, they could have incorporated his rope launcher more into the boss fight. Something to make the fight more interesting. I don't know, I am just shooting out ideas, but hopefully you get my point.

As far as the multiple choices above, I will just comment on a few of them.

I think the faster/lower or slower/higher damage attacks should probably depend on weapon type being used. Give each weapon a different feel from one another to give us some variety.

Countering/Parrying I am unsure about. Obviously, they should be in, but I just don't want them to become instakills that end up making combat trivial. I guess how they were done in Unity/Syndicate is alright, allowing you to go on the offensive after a successful parry/counter. However, some enemies should be able to counter in the same way and they should then go on the offensive, not just stand there like fools.

But yeah, just throwing out some ideas. I am sure you guys can come up with some cool stuff as well. Anything to spice things up in future games.

LoyalACFan
12-02-2015, 11:43 PM
Everything except "faster lighter damage" and "art of battle" are cool with me. I ****ing HATE Syndicate's combat, and art of battle is too involved for what's supposed to be a stealth-action game. I don't want combat to be the main focus.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 11:46 PM
Yeah, what is "Art of Battle"? Sounds cool, but I have no idea what it is.

Could someone explain this?

BananaBlighter
12-02-2015, 11:54 PM
I think the Art of Battle system in For Honor is something really special, the fact that they gave it it's own name comes to show that they have future plans for it. The creative director on the game said, "I'd like to feel that Ubisoft has finally cracked sword-fighting," or something along those lines in a dev video. Does this point towards the inclusion of this system in other Ubi titles? I hope so, though it would need significant tweaking for an SP game like AC.

The biggest problem is AI. AC would have to finally build on combat AI for the enemies to make full use of the system. The Art of Battle is made for an MP game, and revolves significantly around feinting and trickery against the other player. The AI would have to be pretty advanced to play mind games like those.

For Honor's system is for 1v1, not something we want in AC. I mean, we want a challenge, but not an automatic death sentence when confronting two enemies as it is in For Honor. We want to feel powerful, not a perfect match for our enemies. So...let's bring in some elements of the more traditional AC combat to ease things up a bit.

I think we could get away with counter-kills like AC3 so long as we are choosing the direction to block in. When the enemy attacks, you align the right stick, slap 'B'/'O' and time momentarily freezes, giving you time react by either: countering, disarming, tool countering, or throwing/stunning. However, when another enemy attacks (not the one you are locked on to), you are not required to choose the direction but cannot counter-kill. Instead, like AC Unity, if you get the timing perfect, you will momentarily stun the enemy. This is how we modify the system to work against, multiple enemies.

I also really enjoyed the multi-finishers from Syndicate, so I think something along these lines should make a return. However, the whole near death state thing is a bit weird, and I think that Unity's finisher set-up was a lot better, where the enemy would slowly descend once depleted of their health, and attacking them once more before they fell to the ground would initiate a finisher. This would encourage crowd control, since you have to get all the enemies in to the near death state at the same time, otherwise some would fall to the ground before you can pull off a multi-finisher. It adds quite a bit of challenge for setting up these, but it only makes them all the more rewarding.

Multi-counters should never go away, and they're a nice, cheap, satisfying way of eliminating enemies. I think they should act a bit like the 'last chance' in SoM, where a QTE would activate when you ran out of health. Similarly, anytime you run out of health, two enemies will simultaneously attack to finsh you off, and you are given one more chance, whereby a few QTEs revolving around the right stick (which you use to aim the direction of blocking) come up.

The Art of Battle is a challenging but satisfying combat system that has finally captured the essence of sword fighting. Before For Honor was announced, I made a post on here about how I wished AC would adopt a combat system using the right stick to control the sword's direction, having some sort of 'fencing mode'. Really surprised when my dream came true, just not for AC. Obviously this system wouldn't work for something like Syndicate, though I can definitely see an AC1 remake using a combat system, something along the lines of what I described above, with the Art of Battle at it's core.


Yeah, what is "Art of Battle"? Sounds cool, but I have no idea what it is.

Could someone explain this?

Just go check out For Honor, another Ubi game, which focuses around MP sword-fighting using this incredibly innovative system.


Everything except "faster lighter damage" and "art of battle" are cool with me. I ****ing HATE Syndicate's combat, and art of battle is too involved for what's supposed to be a stealth-action game. I don't want combat to be the main focus.

Combat wouldn't necessarily become the main focus or anything, though it is something that needs a lot of improvement and I just think that with a variation of this system we could do just that.

cawatrooper9
12-03-2015, 12:00 AM
I think the Art of Battle system in For Honor is something really special, the fact that they gave it it's own name comes to show that they have future plans for it.


Ah, just like the original Assassins Creed "Puppeteering" concept, right? :p


Just go check out For Honor, another Ubi game, which focuses around MP sword-fighting using this incredibly innovative system.
Ah, thank you! This game has been pretty far off my radar so far, maybe it's time I start looking into it more.

BananaBlighter
12-03-2015, 12:05 AM
Ah, just like the original Assassins Creed "Puppeteering" concept, right? :p


Ah, thank you! This game has been pretty far off my radar so far, maybe it's time I start looking into it more.

Yeah I guess that to had it's own name, though since I wasn't around at the time I don't really know if they were marketing the hell out of it the way they are doing so with For Honor. I mean, it's no way near as innovative.

Namikaze_17
12-03-2015, 12:05 AM
I'd rather they scrap it all together at this point. It's just so tired and pointless.

crusader_prophet
12-03-2015, 12:20 AM
- Remove counter kills - they are too easy.
- Introduce timed parry and timed dodging to avoid damage and not inflict damage.
- Add Block mechanic to avoid damage for lower level enemies and according to physics of the weapon and enemy level.
- Hire better engineers who can design better enemy AI (at least at par with Destiny, Bloodborne, Dark Souls if not better)
- Add Jump, Slide, Roll, Dodge, vault/flips during combat and create combos/special attacks if player attacks the enemy during the animations.
- Introduce a re-spawn restricted zone if got detected during a mission, and let players use their available distraction techniques, skills and environment to disappear in plain sight. Once incognito, open up the world to escape as they do now.
- Retain the combined combat (secondary weapon and primary weapon combinations) such as the fancy moves perk in AC:S
- Introduce Prolonged parries.
- Retain Kicks, punches, stuns (using weapons) to inflict damage.
- Retain multi-finishers

..............I can keep going...

Civona
12-03-2015, 02:33 AM
I voted "other". It would be nice if combat were more about using your acrobatic abilities and speed to your advantage, wheras the way it is now it feels like every assassin fights on his or her enemy's terms. Combat that's more about misdirecting, outwitting, and sneaking than destroying people in a straight up fight. This way the actual geometry of the level still matters when you get spotted, wheras currently it kind of loses all relevance unless you decide to run. Also, when combat isn't balanced for you to win on the enemy's terms, there's more incentive to think twice before taking on large groups. If done right, it could put the player in their place while also giving them to the tools to feel powerful if they play smart.

VernalBreak
12-03-2015, 02:47 AM
@Civonna, That sounds like an art of battle adaption.

Civona
12-03-2015, 03:13 AM
@Civonna, That sounds like an art of battle adaption.

nope. for honor is still about normal face to face combat, I'm thinking kind of like Batman's predator rooms but you have to work harder to disappear into the shadows (no easy grappling hook out) and you don't ever get into big brawls

Sesheenku
12-03-2015, 04:24 AM
Something closer to the pillars of basic action games. First let's add blocking and dodging, like from games like Devil May Cry.

Second let's put back the counter kill, If they want to make it even harder to counter let's add in a perfect block mechanic and make it the only way to activate counter kills.

It's really dull right now I just mash buttons and it's over, at least before I tapped counter and it was over much quicker so that it didn't over stay it's welcome.

Counter killing is symbolic of the assassins, it was the way you did things from the first game, having it removed is unacceptable and it doesn't need to be removed the mechanic simply needs to be harder to pull off.

Have enemies do attacks that require different timings to counter kill. Make it risky to mess up. That's all that needs to be done.

LoyalACFan
12-03-2015, 09:11 AM
Something closer to the pillars of basic action games. First let's add blocking and dodging, like from games like Devil May Cry.

Second let's put back the counter kill, If they want to make it even harder to counter let's add in a perfect block mechanic and make it the only way to activate counter kills.

It's really dull right now I just mash buttons and it's over, at least before I tapped counter and it was over much quicker so that it didn't over stay it's welcome.

Counter killing is symbolic of the assassins, it was the way you did things from the first game, having it removed is unacceptable and it doesn't need to be removed the mechanic simply needs to be harder to pull off.

Have enemies do attacks that require different timings to counter kill. Make it risky to mess up. That's all that needs to be done.

I agree with most of this. I like counter-kills, but as you say they need to be hard, like they were in AC1 (the only AC game where, le gasp, it's reasonably possible to die in combat without being hit with a gunshot to the face!).

Sushiglutton
12-03-2015, 11:13 AM
I just don't think the details matter given the state the combat is in and has been for years. Seems to me like the people working on combat are simply incompetent. They also have the wrong vision (tap a button, watch something cool). So it feels pointless to do any deeper analysis.

LoyalACFan
12-03-2015, 11:43 PM
I just don't think the details matter given the state the combat is in and has been for years. Seems to me like the people working on combat are simply incompetent. They also have the wrong vision (tap a button, watch something cool). So it feels pointless to do any deeper analysis.

I'm not even sure if it's incompetence... I mean, with as many studios that have been in and out of AC development over the last eight years, it's not like they're using the same people to make every game's combat (pretty sure Montreal wasn't even involved with Syndicate and its new combat system). I honestly think it's a corporate decision to keep the combat stupidly easy, because when there's even a hint of challenge, people flood these forums and elsewhere with complaints.

Sushiglutton
12-04-2015, 10:19 AM
I'm not even sure if it's incompetence... I mean, with as many studios that have been in and out of AC development over the last eight years, it's not like they're using the same people to make every game's combat (pretty sure Montreal wasn't even involved with Syndicate and its new combat system). I honestly think it's a corporate decision to keep the combat stupidly easy, because when there's even a hint of challenge, people flood these forums and elsewhere with complaints.

Yeah, I have no right to claim incompetence, sorry about that. It's just that this constant combat fiasco is frustrating. And it's not like Ubi themselves are satisfied. They keep rebuilding combat from the ground up. At some point they just gonna have to face that a melee combat system needs a difficulty setting. It's the only way to handle complexity. At the lowest level mashing buttons should be fine and it should result in some cool finishers. The higher the difficulty the more of the system you will have to master. This is how every game does it but AC, which refuses to use difficulty settings. The result is a combat system that is super unsatisfying for all but the most casual.

I refuse to believe that AC gamers are that much more stupid than say Arkham players (which also has a casual system at heart, but with way more control, variety and depth than AC has (which tells you all you need to know about AC combat)).

Sesheenku
12-04-2015, 06:07 PM
I agree with most of this. I like counter-kills, but as you say they need to be hard, like they were in AC1 (the only AC game where, le gasp, it's reasonably possible to die in combat without being hit with a gunshot to the face!).

Yeah and enemies hurt there without archers shredding you to bits like Unity's gunners.That said I do enjoy Unity's combat otherwise it takes more thought than Syndicates which is nice. It's a cycle of offense and defense.

VernalBreak
12-09-2015, 05:31 AM
I like the idea of relying on movements or overwhelming your enemy to win a fight. Right now in many of the earlier games if your enemies stopped attacking they would be almost invincible. I think maybe using a lot of strafing like in ac2 would be the first step but it would not be enough. I think using something like in for honor with the oni where you roll over your enemy would be cool. Ducking, jumping etc could also help. I think this type of system added to something art of battleish could be epic!

dxsxhxcx
12-09-2015, 11:30 AM
AC1's combat with more aggressive enemies (that'll keep the combat flowing) and counter attacks being 1HKO only when the enemy's health is below 20%, otherwise our attack will be parried by the enemy, hit them but not kill them or the enemy will counter attack us (like some of them used to do in AC1), what would give us a small window to parry its counter attack.