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Waldo.Pepper
08-23-2004, 03:47 PM
From Swastika in the Gunsight by Igor Kaberov
pages 155-156.

When he was flying a Hurricane (the field mod version we have in the game).


"I would also like to mention here one of Nikitin's personal characteristics - his astonishing resourcefulness, his smartness in battle. The following incident illustrates it: Nikolay Mikhailoyich was leading six Hurricanes. We were giv'ing coyer to our land forces in the front line. W'hen something like ten minutes remained before our spell of duty was due to finish, an announcement came over the radio: 'From the direction of Gatchina on course for Kolpino - enemy fighters.' We had hardly turned in their direction when a command followed: 'Stop the enemy aircraft, don't let them get to Kolpino!' It was easy enough to say - stop about forty Ju 87 bombers accompanied by fighters, but Nikitin answered 'Aye-aye, Stop them" and rushed to meet the Fascist armada, taking us with him. We cut into the enemy's formation of aircraft at full speed. Fearing a collision with us, they dashed aside. Two Junkers collided and fell to earth in a ball of
flame. The Ju 87 and the Hurricane were single-engine aircraft. The humpÔ┬*backed English fighter was like the Junkers in shape and size; but the Junkers had a fixed undercarriage. Nikitin had a cunning idea.
Having slipped through the formation of Junkers, he immediately turned our six through 180 degrees and ordered us to form up in two flights of three, like Fascist bombers do, and to lower our undercarriages. Looking at my friends flying beside me, at our humpbacked Hurricanes with undercarriages lowered, only then did I understand the leader's idea. Truly. had we not become like Junkers? What a good idea of the CO's! We were flying in the same formation as Fascist bombers! And above us, the enemy fighters who had lost us were rushing about like madmen.
A Ju 87 loomed in front of me. It was already in my sights. The gunner on the Junkers (I could see him clearly) was twisting round in his cockpit, now aiming his machine-gun up, now to either side. He was looking for us, but in fear of the knowledge that Soviet fighters were near, he did not see the red noses of our machines, nor the bright stars on our wings.
Nikitin was already shouting over the radio: 'Everyone choose yourself a target! Attention! Fire!' We pressed our triggers.
I could no longer see the gunner. His machine, enveloped in flames, heeled over, put its nose down and plunged to earth, leaving behind it a belching trail of smoke. Burning and breaking up in mid-air, five more enemy aircraft fell to the point-blank fire of our pilots.
The Fascist bombers jettisoned their bombs without reaching their target, turned and fled in all directions. We retracted our undercarriages and also flew away. Only then, once they had located us, did the enemy fighters pursue us. Capt Yefimov's group, coming out to meet us, gave us assistance.
The concentrated aerial attack on Kolpino was broken up thanks to the bravery and resourcefulness of our CO. "

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I love such stories of deception. Share anymore you have.

Waldo.Pepper
08-23-2004, 03:47 PM
From Swastika in the Gunsight by Igor Kaberov
pages 155-156.

When he was flying a Hurricane (the field mod version we have in the game).


"I would also like to mention here one of Nikitin's personal characteristics - his astonishing resourcefulness, his smartness in battle. The following incident illustrates it: Nikolay Mikhailoyich was leading six Hurricanes. We were giv'ing coyer to our land forces in the front line. W'hen something like ten minutes remained before our spell of duty was due to finish, an announcement came over the radio: 'From the direction of Gatchina on course for Kolpino - enemy fighters.' We had hardly turned in their direction when a command followed: 'Stop the enemy aircraft, don't let them get to Kolpino!' It was easy enough to say - stop about forty Ju 87 bombers accompanied by fighters, but Nikitin answered 'Aye-aye, Stop them" and rushed to meet the Fascist armada, taking us with him. We cut into the enemy's formation of aircraft at full speed. Fearing a collision with us, they dashed aside. Two Junkers collided and fell to earth in a ball of
flame. The Ju 87 and the Hurricane were single-engine aircraft. The humpÔ┬*backed English fighter was like the Junkers in shape and size; but the Junkers had a fixed undercarriage. Nikitin had a cunning idea.
Having slipped through the formation of Junkers, he immediately turned our six through 180 degrees and ordered us to form up in two flights of three, like Fascist bombers do, and to lower our undercarriages. Looking at my friends flying beside me, at our humpbacked Hurricanes with undercarriages lowered, only then did I understand the leader's idea. Truly. had we not become like Junkers? What a good idea of the CO's! We were flying in the same formation as Fascist bombers! And above us, the enemy fighters who had lost us were rushing about like madmen.
A Ju 87 loomed in front of me. It was already in my sights. The gunner on the Junkers (I could see him clearly) was twisting round in his cockpit, now aiming his machine-gun up, now to either side. He was looking for us, but in fear of the knowledge that Soviet fighters were near, he did not see the red noses of our machines, nor the bright stars on our wings.
Nikitin was already shouting over the radio: 'Everyone choose yourself a target! Attention! Fire!' We pressed our triggers.
I could no longer see the gunner. His machine, enveloped in flames, heeled over, put its nose down and plunged to earth, leaving behind it a belching trail of smoke. Burning and breaking up in mid-air, five more enemy aircraft fell to the point-blank fire of our pilots.
The Fascist bombers jettisoned their bombs without reaching their target, turned and fled in all directions. We retracted our undercarriages and also flew away. Only then, once they had located us, did the enemy fighters pursue us. Capt Yefimov's group, coming out to meet us, gave us assistance.
The concentrated aerial attack on Kolpino was broken up thanks to the bravery and resourcefulness of our CO. "

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I love such stories of deception. Share anymore you have.

woofiedog
08-23-2004, 03:57 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Great story!
Thank's

http://www.villagephotos.com/image.asp?id_=9721627&sessionkey=

oisink
08-23-2004, 04:05 PM
true story: i was once flying on a server with hurris and junkers on it and what with our base being bombed i scrambled and forget to pull my undercarriage up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif. So i was chugging along wondering why this damn hurri was soo slow when one of my squadron popped up in chat "you have your undercarriage down!"

the blue side erupted in e-laughter and one of em wrote "he thinks hes a stuka lol" . I tried save face by saying "dagnabbit thats EXACTLY my plan, you blew my cover man!!". Afterwards i thought it wasnt actually a bad trick to try on a server with j-87s present

nice to see i was someone used the tactic in real life i feel ...justified http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ois├┬*n

"N├┬*l sa saol ach gaoth is toit"

Future-
08-23-2004, 04:30 PM
Let's see, so I can get this straight:

6 Hurricanes, with big red stars on their wings.

"about 40 Ju-87" plus escorting fighters.

And about 8 Stukas get shot, without a single Hurri getting blown.
Now, if they could only explain how they managed to get away fromm the escorts after blowing their cover, as the escorts had the alt advantage... plus I think most german fighters of that time were faster than the Hurri.

As interesting as this is to read, it smells a little fishy. Am I the only one here to know that a Hurri and a Stuka are different enough to tell them apart even from distance? Even with lowered gear, the Hurri looks different, especially when "wearing" red stars.

The only thing I can imagine is that the german bombers and fighters completely lost it when being attacked, and therefor had too much panic on their mind to focus and tell foe from friend.

Don't get me wrong, I like a good propaganda read http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ("fascist bombers", lol), but this one is strange.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Freycinet
08-23-2004, 05:15 PM
eh, fascist bombers was just the way they called them. The germans called the russians "bolscheviks"...

- and the germans were indeed fascists, BTW.

strange things happen in war, don't think your il-2 experience will tell you what might or might not have happened on the eastern front in real life.

Lateralus_14
08-23-2004, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
- and the germans were indeed fascists, BTW.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hope not to hijack this thread, but I must take offense with this statement.

The average German pilot during WWII was not a fascist. Fascists were the controlling party of the German government. Saying that all German servicemen were fascists is like saying every last American servicemen currently in Iraq is a Republican. Silly.

WTE_Dukayn
08-23-2004, 05:37 PM
Great story. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

----------------------
WTE 2TG No. 68 Sentai
BANZAI!

PraetorHonoris
08-23-2004, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Freycinet:
eh, fascist bombers was just the way they called them. The germans called the russians "bolscheviks"...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense. It is fascinating and sometimes frustating how the propaganda is effecting people's oppinions after 60 years! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

The Soviets were generally called "der Russe" or "die Russen" (the Russian; the Russians), although many of them were from Belarus, Ukrain etc. by most Germans this time.

Only the propaganda and fanatic Nazis used the term "Bolschewisten" (bolsheviks).
For the rest of this statement: http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Back to topic:

Erich Hartmann, highest scoring ace ever, once confused his flightleader with an enemy plane and was flying within an enemy formation for a short while!
(from: G├╝nther Rall "Mein Flugbuch - Erinnerungen 1938-2004")

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

Xiolablu3
08-23-2004, 06:45 PM
Bolshavik is a political term for a Communist isnt it?? Not that I'm an expert on this subject.

I'm afraid have to agree with Future on this one, this story sounds very far fetched.

How would the fighters see the wheels down on the hurricanes if they were above?? The red wing star decals would be plain to see and the wing shape from above of a hurricane is TOTALLY different to a JU87.

It is very easy to tell if a wing is square or round at the end even from a long way off if you are above.

I guess it made a good story to tell his kids. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Destroyer110
08-23-2004, 07:51 PM
I find that hard to believe Max ...

You mean the fighter escort couldn't distinquish between Stuka and Foe, even though they'd probably be higher? Those huge red stars are a give away! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I have read where British Defiants and Hurricanes would be mixed in squadrons to confuse the enemy but these planes were VERY similar.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/hastati/condor.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
08-23-2004, 08:49 PM
Analysis follows...

Red stars were not on most VVS fighter top wings after 1941, so they would not be seen from above. The author may have meant bottom wing red stars. VVS Hurricanes may have had red stars on top wings...I don't know about this. We also don't know the date; the later the date the less chance of top wing red stars (locations of combat could yield clue to date for those wanting to look).

When searching in the heat of battle, real life aircrew use visual clues and the Hurricane with lowered gear would easily register as a Stuka. How both the Stukas and escorts lost complete track of the Hurricanes is beyond me, although anything is possible.

The author mentioned another fighter unit assisting at the end, so that may have saved them from being chased by German fighters who held altitude advantage.

Granted, the way these stories are told is so corny to a modern westerner (here) its hard to believed them in total. A partial truth possibly? But then the translation may be a factor. Also know that Soviet people grew up reading Extreme propaganda style writing and it can effect the way people write--part of the heavily politicized culture...also the story may have been Enhanced by censors.


Another story of Deception may be more easily seen as true (mmm). An experienced Soviet pilot was returning home alone with I~16 and he spotted Fb~109s approaching him in the distance. He flew crooked with controls and the 109s assumed he was crippled and they attacked him with much sloppiness. At the last moment he swung around his healthy 16 and went head~to~head with attacking unsuspecting Fb~109 and the result was obvious. This seems believable as a [apparent] crippled plane is a juicy looking target, and I~16 pilots ~loved~ head to head fighting.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack ( AEP )

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
The 109 was the dog chasing the car and the P51 was the dog catcher ~ASH_SMART
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Future-
08-24-2004, 05:26 AM
Good analysis! And the story about the I-16 sounds familiar, as "playing possum" is often a good tactic to confuse your enemy, pretending you are heavier damaged than you really are.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

F19_Ob
08-24-2004, 05:35 AM
Here is another incredible story from the Finns about joining an enemy bomber formation on their way home and bombing them on their finals.

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/en/hist/WW2History-NightOfTheBombers.html

Friendly_flyer
08-24-2004, 09:05 AM
I have no doubt that from a few hundred meters away, any details of a plane is lost, particularily under less-than-perfect weather contiotions (he mentioned clouds). If the escort just saw two rows of blackis crosses against the clouds, they would have no other clues to their identity than their formation. Though it smells of propaganda, it's by no means impossible.

Fly friendly!

Petter B├┬Şckman
Norway

BinaryFalcon
08-24-2004, 10:23 AM
Not only that, if you've just been attacked by fighters that blew right through a formation of your aircraft, where's the last place you'd look and expect to find them?

I'd say in neat formation with the planes you're defending would be it.

Expectation plays a huge role in recognizing what your senses are telling you. Ever take a drink of something while expecting something else and it took you a moment to figure out what it was you really had?

Same thing.

If you expect to find humpbacked planes with visible landing gear flying in a certain formation and a certain place, a quick glance that shows most of what you expect is likely to satisfy you - especially if you're busy scanning the sky for those fighters that just zipped through and cut you up.

It's not as unlikely as you may think. It'd probably only work once on any given crew, but that first time it could be quite effective.