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MisterWillow
11-30-2015, 12:39 PM
So, I thought this might be interesting. I was on the main site a few days ago looking up something for a thread, and found myself on the character pages, and noticed the shadows of the presumed unannounced Hero/classes, and thought this might make for a bit of interesting speculation, especially because it isn't the usual 'this is what I want' and more 'this is what I think is there'. And this is kind of long, so buckle up. :p

So, for anyone who has not been over there, or has, but has never noticed the backgrounds:

Knight
http://i63.tinypic.com/34japw1.jpg

Viking
http://i66.tinypic.com/30htumr.jpg

Samurai
http://i66.tinypic.com/fx46o.jpg

But I also noticed that when they cycle, there's a moment when the character at the forefront zips away, and you can only see the shadows, which reveals a bit more of them.

Again, in order:
http://i68.tinypic.com/2nius2g.jpg
http://i63.tinypic.com/112e4yf.jpg
http://i67.tinypic.com/2s7x3k7.jpg


So, let's dig into this, starting with the Knight.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2d18hop.jpg
First guy up is a bruiser. Armour appears even heavier than the Warden's. Perhaps he'll move slower, lumbering about like a penguin, or maybe his appearance is deceptive. Whatever the case in his agility, I think he'll definitely be more sturdy, able to soak up damage from every direction and shrug off heavy attacks.

He appears, very obviously, to have a polearm. Since the top is not visible, we'll have to speculate what menacing shape adorns its business end. I'm guessing a halberd, but a heavy spear (pike), or billhook are all probable. Perhaps that will factor into his customisation. ;)

Overall, I imagine this will be a formidable Hero/class to face.

http://i66.tinypic.com/30a3zfk.jpg

Next up, what appears to be the shield-Knight, who we've seen teased for the briefest of moments. He appears about as heavily armoured as the Warden, and, in said tease, he uses a flail---though, perhaps, like the bruiser above, his customisation allows for a sword or mace to be swapped out... maybe (again, speculation).

The shield should definitely offer more protection than armour alone, but perhaps the shield could also be used as a distraction---that is, it could be held in front of them and obscure his other movements (such as stance) until an attack comes, forcing his opponent to have quicker reflexes than when fighting other Legion Hero/classes, or at least be that much more attentive to his subtle movements.

I suspect there will be a shield bash (perhaps his guard-break), and one was displayed in the aforementioned teaser. What I don't know, exactly, is how his weapon will behave. A flail is what's known as a 'soft (or flexible) weapon'---for the fairly obvious reason that there's a flexible (or soft) aspect to it, namely the chain. In actual warfare, this was very useful in hitting someone holding a shield (since the chain would simply bend around the edge of one) or wrapping the chain around other weapons for easy disarms (especially axes). It was also fairly unpredictable, and could easily backfire, in that, if the heavy thing at the end does something like hit a shield dead on, or glance off the top of a helmet (instead of crushing the skull wearing it), it could easily bounce back, or swing around, and injure its wielder.

Now, I don't expect either of these aspect to be present in the game, because, as I've alluded (or said outright) in a couple of other threads, realism should not trump fun if it can be helped, and such realsm, I feel, would only lead to frustration. But what can err on the side of realism is damage, and a flail, by all accounts, was a devastating weapon, able to crush armour and the bodies beneath them quite easily. With that in mind, I'm curious how much stronger that weapon will be next to, say, a sword.

I'm really interested in how shields will actually factor in to tactics, but if they're effective, I expect their defense to be hard to penetrate.

http://i63.tinypic.com/okcxfq.jpg
Now, what do we have here? I'm not sure if that's a few wisps of long hair or a loose coif of chainmaille. Regardless, he seems to be armoured much lighter than the others, which could possibly mean he could be a bit spry-er than your average knight, resulting in quicker attack speed, or longer dashes. Perhaps he's the Legion's answer to the Oni.

More to that, his weapon appears to be a simple, one-handed sword. I imagine it's shorter than a Warden's by a few inches. Going with that supposition, I suspect his tactics will be more hit and run, get-in-get-out quick strikes, because if he gets hit, it's probably going to hurt a lot.

Next up, Vikings!

First, I feel like since he hasn't actually been revealed yet---that is, we've seen no gameplay beyond the possible E3 easter egg---I should comment on the Raider himself (see pic at the top).

So, Viking armour wasn't really known for being as formidable looking as most other warriors (certainly not when compared with Knights and Samurai), but he looks well protected for what he's got. Sturdy leather breastplate and pauldron; a bit of fur to show his inner beast, and a standard Viking helmet. What he makes up for in layered protection he appears to make up for in body mass, cause he looks like a freaking mountain. I imaging the Vikings in general will be slightly... heartier than the other factions, and so will be able to shrug off a blow or two easier than the others.

Sword and shield combo here, so what was said of the Knight could apply to him as well. However, I feel like the Vikings will really use their shields more like a second weapon (not that the Knights will not, just speaking comparatively); meaning heavier shield bashes, a shield charge, a combo involving the shield, etc. The sword, compared to the Knight's flail, though, I think will do less damage. This could be made up for in a slightly longer reach (depending on the length of both weapons).

Again, really curious about shields, superb defense, yadda, yadda, okay, moving on.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2ahgodx.jpg
Next, we have a standard-ish armour (maybe sleeveless?). Probably about the same protection as the Raider, but it looks like he has an axe in one hand. This could be the dual-wielder in the promo material (you can see him in the 'pre-order' box up at the corner), but his other hand is lost in shadow, so it's pretty difficult (if not impossible) to see if he's holding anything or not. If it is, then he looks mean as Hel's darkest halls.

Working with the assumption that he is a dual wielder, I'm guessing he can attack faster than the Raider---or, more accurately, be able to make follow up attacks faster, and/or change the direction of his attacks quicker; for example, a light attack on the left can immediately be followed up by a light attack on the right, since I'm guessing with dual wielders, light attacks will be with one weapon, and heavy attacks will be with both. This would also apply to a Knight or Samurai dual wielder (perhaps that lightly-armoured Knight carries another sword in his obscured hand?)

As with shields, I'm very interested in how dual wielding will alter strategy, but, antithetical to the shield-bearer's heightened defense, I suspect dual wielders will constantly be on the offense.

http://i66.tinypic.com/a0yl2f.jpg
Next, this guy looks slightly sturdier than the others, maybe heavier armour. The problem with the Vikings are all fairly standard, which is fine with me from a realism perspective, but all their.silhouettes all kind of look the same; which, again, is fine, since I assume they'll have little armour pieces and bits of fur to differentiate them. ;)

What is of more concern at the moment is the weapon he's holding: a giant, two-handed axe. While great at dealing damage, the fact that it seems to be on a rather long haft means it will also be great at keeping some distance between him and an opponent. What I'm curious about is, aside from cleaving fools in 'twain, how is he able to use it. Since this is a Viking, I'm assuming the axe head is sufficiently bearded---meaning the edge extends downward more than a usual blade, creating a slightly (or very pronounced, depending on the design) hooked shape---which could be used to hook opponents and, say, pull them in for a grab, hooking weapons (or shields) aside for some quick hits, or even get their leg and trip them for a devastating overhead blow (though, I don't know, obviously, if you can be knocked down in the midst of combat at all).

So, heavy damage, at range. Could be tough to fight against.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2ldtz77.jpg
This guy is both curious and worrisome. He looks like he's armoured lighter than the Raider, so I'm guessing he's quick, but his weapon is a bit off-putting. Perhaps it's just me, but that looks very similar to the handle-end of a crossbow, as it looks like a trigger mechanism on the other side of his fingers.

Of course, this could just as easily be a handle that wraps the hand, or a Viking-version of a dussack. If so, then I'm guessing he'll be the quick one, though he looks better off in the armour department than his Knight counterpart.

And finally, the Chosen

http://i64.tinypic.com/2vinuk6.jpg
First, a big guy with some spiffy looking armour (note the crescent on the helmet). He looks much better protected than the Oni, and I'm guessing that will be reflected in his movement.and attack speed (both probably more around Warden levels). As to the actual damage reduction vs the Oni, I can't help but feel like the Warden will be at a slight advantage in sheer protection.

His weapon, though, appears, almost unequivocally a tachi, which were the predecessors of the katana, were slightly longer than katana, and tended to be more ornate (note the tassle on the end of the handle). They were also traditionally worn edge-down, as the sheath had looped fabric attached to run a belt or sash through, similar to modern sabers,

This seems to be the Chosen answer to the Warden. It's difficult to know which will be the better warrior overall. One could be quicker than the other, or have more damage protection. This is a clash I'd be very interested in seeing.

http://i67.tinypic.com/10i5pmp.jpg
Well, doesn't he look formidable? Heavier armour maybe even than the Knight with the pole-arm, or maybe just more sturdy, or rigid looking. I think it's safe to assume he's a relative damage sponge, unflinching even at the most fearsome attacks, but will he also be the damage dealer?

The weapon he's holding is at his side, so it's difficult to judge. The length of the handle extending behind him suggests a pole-arm. But what? Gut feeling says naginata, but it could just as easily be something like a kanabo (a heavy, studded club). Again, it could be a matter of customisation.

Like the pole-Knight, I'm expecting him to be either the Hero/class that everyone tries to avoid or will constantly be surrounded so as to keep him occupied and/or waiting to respawn, but I wonder how easy it will be to actually take him down.

http://i65.tinypic.com/2nkqd13.jpg
And finally, one of (if not THE) most interesting looking silhouette. Not sure how well a straw hat will be, but it could be a psychological thing, intended to obscure as much of himself as possible. The rest of him is just a blank. Not sure if it's just the intended art direction, though, or if he's wearing a cloak (or even a kimono, perhaps with some light armour).

But what really makes his outfit curious is his weapon, a two-section staff. It's basically a lop-sided nunchuck---a short staff with a chain attached to a small rod or weight on one end. This would, at a glance, be the Chosen answer to the shield-Knight and his flail, but, of course, the Samurai has no shield. Instead, he uses range to his advantage, which will add an interesting dynamic to both the person playing him, and the one fighting against him, especially since, if indeed he is not (or very lightly) armoured, he could be considerably faster than most of the other Hero/classes, and have range on his side.



So, if you made it all the way down here, what did you think? Any alternate theories based on the images? What do you think their Feats will be? Do you think there will be even more Hero/classes, or is this it (for launch, anyway)?

For the record, I think the four for each faction is perfectly fine for launch; too much too quickly and it could screw with balance. :)

coma987
11-30-2015, 04:48 PM
I somewhat spoke about this on this post. There are also some other interesting things you can find. #SelfPromo https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/3p7xd7/mega_thread_of_things_that_you_couldve_possibly/

premiumart
11-30-2015, 06:25 PM
http://i65.tinypic.com/10r3gi1.jpg
And finally, one of (if not THE) most interesting looking silhouette. Not sure how well a straw hat will be, but it could be a psychological thing, intended to obscure as much of himself as possible. The rest of him is just a blank. Not sure if it's just the intended art direction, though, or if he's wearing a cloak (or even a kimono, perhaps with some light armour).

But what really makes his outfit curious is his weapon, a two-section staff. It's basically a lop-sided nunchuck---a short staff with a chain attached to a small rod or weight on one end. This would, at a glance, be the Chosen answer to the shield-Knight and his flail, but, of course, the Samurai has no shield. Instead, he uses range to his advantage, which will add an interesting dynamic to both the person playing him, and the one fighting against him, especially since, if indeed he is not (or very lightly) armoured, he could be considerably faster than most of the other Hero/classes, and have range on his side.



So, if you made it all the way down here, what did you think? Any alternate theories based on the images? What do you think their Feats will be? Do you think there will be even more Hero/classes, or is this it (for launch, anyway)?

For the record, I think the four for each faction is perfectly fine for launch; too much too quickly and it could screw with balance. :)

In a "how to draw manga book" i did read taht toseinin are often pictured with straw hats that hide their faces, since they were wanted. They were outlaws, strangers traveled the land and sometimes were heroes in tales.

I didnt look that up on the net basicly just what is written in that book i have, if you wanna look it up feel free to ; D

I have no idea how a toseinin would fit the chosen lore but since they all are kinda travelers it would be possible.

Awesome Post MisterWillow.

MisterWillow
12-01-2015, 01:01 AM
I somewhat spoke about this on this post. There are also some other interesting things you can find. #SelfPromo https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/comments/3p7xd7/mega_thread_of_things_that_you_couldve_possibly/

I thought I had seen a thread that showed the backgrounds, but I searched everywhere and couldn't find it in the forums... I guess it being on reddit explains it. :p

http://i68.tinypic.com/1q4pc8.jpg
So, from this full shot of Knight shadows, you can see (as pointed out in your thread) the bottom of a pike head, which should make for a good distance weapon. Depending on how quick it is---and I imagine it to be fairly fast considering how a spear is used---that could make for a very dangerous opponent, especially if my thoughts on his damage resistance is correct. Still hoping you can customise the end.

Other than that, though, you can't really glean anything else from the image, save maybe the nimble-Knight's weapon a tad more clearly, especially if you adjust brightness/contrast.

http://i65.tinypic.com/200rcj5.jpg
It doesn't look like a normal one-handed sword. The blade seems very broad, especially when considering he's holding it at an angle. Best guess is a falchion---a heavy chopping weapon---which will change his dynamic a bit. I had considered at first that he would have a short sword for relatively weak, but very fast slashes; so you don't get hurt too much when hit---relatively speaking---but you have so little time to breathe that you might be getting hit a lot. With a falchion, though, while probably still faster than a warden (I'm guessing his attack speed about the same as the Oni), the amount of damage he could do is increased considerably. There was an account I read somewhere that falchions could cut through plate armour, and even if that's a fantastical legend, if even half that presumed power is translated to in-game damage models, then he could be a real powerhouse, and very dangerous to face.

Plus, falchion shapes have been known to vary wildly, which makes for great customisation. ;)
http://i65.tinypic.com/344ctw0.jpg http://i68.tinypic.com/2cxg26t.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/2u8z2hw.jpg http://i68.tinypic.com/vpg5er.jpg

On to the Vikings

http://i63.tinypic.com/2rqbnyd.jpg
You can tell the Dane axe has a beard (a big one, by the looks of it), and the Viking in the back has, instead of a crossbow, what looks like either a heavy spiked club or perhaps a more refined war hammer---both equally brutal, and capable of dealing loads of damage (more on par with the flail). But to see what the lead Viking has in his right hand, another brightness/contrast adjustment is required.

http://i68.tinypic.com/1zb9hg0.jpg
Not really sure what's causing that blue streak over his arm and weapon (I think it's probably just how the mist they're standing in is rendered), but you can see a fairly convincing silhouette of a second axe. I can't wait to see how he plays.

Unfortunately, I don't see the large image of the Samurai background on your reddit thread. Do you have (or could you get) that as well? I'm curious if it will reveal any more about that samurai in the middle.

*EDIT* Found it!

http://i68.tinypic.com/30w9vrt.jpg

Unfortunately, I still can't tell what weapon the Samurai in the middle is holding. I'm still thinking it's a naginata, though, given the apparent length of the haft.

What's interesting is that guy in the back seems to be holding a longer pole weapon than what I thought. You can see the bottom of it better if the brightness/contrast is adjusted.

http://i66.tinypic.com/oa6tmo.jpg

It looks too long to be a kanabo (though that statement could be showing my ignorance of kanabo length). Still think it's a two-handed flail.


In a "how to draw manga book" i did read taht toseinin are often pictured with straw hats that hide their faces, since they were wanted. They were outlaws, strangers traveled the land and sometimes were heroes in tales.

I didnt look that up on the net basicly just what is written in that book i have, if you wanna look it up feel free to ; D

I have no idea how a toseinin would fit the chosen lore but since they all are kinda travelers it would be possible.

Awesome Post MisterWillow.

Hm... interesting bit of information. You're right, though. It might make sense, given that the Chosen are basically vagabonds looking for a new home.

Curiouser and curiouser...

*EDIT* I typed toseinin into google and came up with very little, mostly people asking other people what it meant (not even a Wikipedia page). However, I did find an article (http://www.weirdwildrealm.com/f-matatabi.html) about yakuza films from the 60s and 70s, into which, apparently toseinin feature prominently.

To summarize, they're wanderers, sometimes ex-farmers (so the flail would make sense), travelling gamblers, or simple transients that, in film at least, are always mixed up with yakuza, because in exchange for free lodging, they are obligated and bound to protect the lodge they're staying at (and the boss there). They're always in the travelling capes and sledge hats suggested by the silhouette, again, in film at least.

If that's correct, then that Hero/class should be very interesting indeed. :D

WYRDB0Y
12-01-2015, 01:33 AM
Haha, you put quite a lot of time into this, I can't read all of it right now but...



But what really makes his outfit curious is his weapon, a two-section staff. It's basically a lop-sided nunchuck---a short staff with a chain attached to a small rod or weight on one end. This would, at a glance, be the Chosen answer to the shield-Knight and his flail, but, of course, the Samurai has no shield. Instead, he uses range to his advantage, which will add an interesting dynamic to both the person playing him, and the one fighting against him, especially since, if indeed he is not (or very lightly) armoured, he could be considerably faster than most of the other Hero/classes, and have range on his side.

My guess would be that the weapon on his back is a Kanabo. Although his outfit doesn't indicate him as a bruiser type, so who knows. Definitely interesting topic, I didn't even notice the background. I hope they don't make another katana/tachi samurai though, one is enough and it happens to be my favorite class (not just in this game, but usually I play high damage/mobility/low health characters).

Willaguy2010
12-01-2015, 01:53 AM
Ummm... is it just me or is that last picture a selfie of someone? Maybe its because I'm on mobile but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

WYRDB0Y
12-01-2015, 03:16 AM
Ummm... is it just me or is that last picture a selfie of someone? Maybe its because I'm on mobile but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

lolwhat? Your phone must be doing funny things.

Willaguy2010
12-01-2015, 06:54 AM
Lol what the heck happened? That last picture used to be some guy with no shirt flexing in front of a mirror, I should've taken a picture of it. I swear I'm not trolling!

MisterWillow
12-01-2015, 06:56 AM
My guess would be that the weapon on his back is a Kanabo. Although his outfit doesn't indicate him as a bruiser type, so who knows.

I'll have to disagree with that. It really reminds me of a farmer's flail, two handed flail, or a two section staff, . There's something that seems more substantial than a mere tassel or something hanging from the end, which makes me think it's a weight. I think the guy standing next to him (in the heavy armour) could be holding a kanabo or naginata, but because of where and how he's holding it, you only see the bottom of the handle sticking out behind him.

For people who are curious:

Two section staff
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/40/Two-section_staff.jpg

Farmer/Two handed flail:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Cep_bojowy_0211.jpg/226px-Cep_bojowy_0211.jpg http://i63.tinypic.com/28016s3.jpg http://i64.tinypic.com/t01648.jpg

Kanabo
http://i67.tinypic.com/2r406br.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/2zxqede.jpg


Definitely interesting topic, I didn't even notice the background. I hope they don't make another katana/tachi samurai though, one is enough and it happens to be my favorite class (not just in this game, but usually I play high damage/mobility/low health characters).

I don't think the one in shadow will be a high damage/mobility/low health Hero/class, though. What I'm thinking is that they're structuring the factions to have counterparts to one another, but with nuances---mild mechanical/control differences, slightly different stats, etc.---that make a choice between factions more than mere re-skins.

For example, every faction has a Hero/class with a polearm---Legion has a pike, Warborn have a two-handed axe, and Chosen has a naginata (I'm assuming given the limited view in the picture)---but I'm guessing the Legion's will be moderately-to-very faster than the other two, and more direct, just because of how a spear is, or can be, handled, the Viking's will be slower than the other two, just because of how axes are weighted, but could incorporate some tricky manoeuvres (probably in guard breaks) that involve hooking opponents and redirecting them or throwing them off balance, and the Samurai's will be of moderate speed, but could utilise both stabbing motions and heavy slashes, so as to keep opponents on their toes and vary damage.

In the case of the Samurai in question, I'm thinking he corresponds to the Warden, so he'll be more balanced, perhaps a bit slower, and better protected than the Oni, and hence, play different overall. I can't really tell if he's holding another weapon, so he could be a dual-wielder (though, given a tachi's length and presumed weight, I don't think it's likely).

MisterWillow
12-01-2015, 07:14 AM
Ummm... is it just me or is that last picture a selfie of someone? Maybe its because I'm on mobile but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.


Lol what the heck happened? That last picture used to be some guy with no shirt flexing in front of a mirror, I should've taken a picture of it. I swear I'm not trolling!

http://s3.scoopwhoop.com/ita/awk/1.gif

WYRDB0Y
12-01-2015, 06:49 PM
I'll have to disagree with that. It really reminds me of a farmer's flail, two handed flail, or a two section staff, . There's something that seems more substantial than a mere tassel or something hanging from the end, which makes me think it's a weight. I think the guy standing next to him (in the heavy armour) could be holding a kanabo or naginata, but because of where and how he's holding it, you only see the bottom of the handle sticking out behind him.


You just said what it is, it's just a big tassel on the end of a stick-like weapon. I still think it's a kanabo.:p
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/78/b9/81/78b981e79d6903549f2d49df12283f34.jpg



I don't think the one in shadow will be a high damage/mobility/low health Hero/class, though. What I'm thinking is that they're structuring the factions to have counterparts to one another, but with nuances---mild mechanical/control differences, slightly different stats, etc.---that make a choice between factions more than mere re-skins.

I mean I hope we don't get another nihonto unit besides the Oni. There are so many other weapons they could do instead. They also don't have to stick to those artworks, as you can see the Oni artwork shows dual wielding swords (which I secretly hope won't be a thing in this game, as it wasn't a common thing in history), but they changed it for the game.

I hope those nuances are going to be unique to every faction as opposed to classes. I really dig how the Oni emphasizes speed, both while defending, you have to be fast so you don't get hit, but you also attack from an unknown direction, which puts pressure on the enemy.
If they could come up with different stuff for every faction and/or class in that faction, that would give a nice depth to the meta.

MisterWillow
12-01-2015, 11:15 PM
You just said what it is, it's just a big tassel on the end of a stick-like weapon. I still think it's a kanabo.:p

Could be, but it looks more like a heavy weight to me. Either would be great, though. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.


I mean I hope we don't get another nihonto unit besides the Oni. There are so many other weapons they could do instead. They also don't have to stick to those artworks, as you can see the Oni artwork shows dual wielding swords (which I secretly hope won't be a thing in this game, as it wasn't a common thing in history), but they changed it for the game.

I understand that you don't want them to be too same-y, but swords are such a big part of the Samurai image (in popular culture anyway) that I understand why they'd have two classes wield them. Granted, they might not control the same---the one in shadow might be more deliberate in his strikes, reducing speed but increasing power, for example.

What would you like instead?


I hope those nuances are going to be unique to every faction as opposed to classes. I really dig how the Oni emphasizes speed, both while defending, you have to be fast so you don't get hit, but you also attack from an unknown direction, which puts pressure on the enemy.
If they could come up with different stuff for every faction and/or class in that faction, that would give a nice depth to the meta.

If what Fatal's been saying over in the thread about the Alpha stats/findings about the differences between just the two ways of guard-breaking are right (and I have no reason to doubt them), then I'm guessing there will be nuance both in terms of faction and class. So, for example, I'm guessing the Oni will have certain tactical ways of controlling that won't apply to the lightly armoured Knight, and vice-versa.

Zercon.
12-02-2015, 04:33 PM
if you look.... you can see that they show you some of the sun-classess it looks like each class has 4 sub-classess

premiumart
12-02-2015, 05:46 PM
Could be, but it looks more like a heavy weight to me. Either would be great, though. We'll have to wait and see, I guess.



I understand that you don't want them to be too same-y, but swords are such a big part of the Samurai image (in popular culture anyway) that I understand why they'd have two classes wield them. Granted, they might not control the same---the one in shadow might be more deliberate in his strikes, reducing speed but increasing power, for example.

What would you like instead?



If what Fatal's been saying over in the thread about the Alpha stats/findings about the differences between just the two ways of guard-breaking are right (and I have no reason to doubt them), then I'm guessing there will be nuance both in terms of faction and class. So, for example, I'm guessing the Oni will have certain tactical ways of controlling that won't apply to the lightly armoured Knight, and vice-versa.

If we are talking about japanese warfare what about the Yari was that more of a Horse lance thing or infantry aswell ? im just glad there was a naginata in the trailer XD

Also i would actually like dual wielding, it may be true that it isnt historically accurate or effective fighting style but its cool af. :cool:

famous last words : "Fighting with two swords, what an idiot!! "

MisterWillow
12-02-2015, 09:33 PM
if you look.... you can see that they show you some of the sun-classess it looks like each class has 4 sub-classess

Got a link to that? :confused:


If we are talking about japanese warfare what about the Yari was that more of a Horse lance thing or infantry aswell ? im just glad there was a naginata in the trailer XD

Especially one like this!
http://i63.tinypic.com/20qf2qc.jpg


Also i would actually like dual wielding, it may be true that it isnt historically accurate or effective fighting style but its cool af. :cool:

famous last words : "Fighting with two swords, what an idiot!! "

Maybe not with two full size swords, but a couple of short ones, or one long one with a large knife, or axe---or katana/wakizashi combo if we're speaking specifically about Samurai---would be fine with me.

Fatal-Feit
12-03-2015, 05:10 AM
I still haven't been able to fully read through this thread yet. I swear, I'm not ignoring it. I'm just trying to take my time reading through your analysis before contributing. Good work on it, btw. :)


They also don't have to stick to those artworks, as you can see the Oni artwork shows dual wielding swords (which I secretly hope won't be a thing in this game, as it wasn't a common thing in history), but they changed it for the game.

I hope I'm not getting too off-topic, but these things really begs the question of how historically accurate the game will be. There aren't any records of how flails were used in combat and historians wonder if they were even used at all. But as seen in the trailer, there's a hero we can presume is dedicated to it.

The developers said the game isn't historical (obviously), but at the same time it has things like half-swording.

Katanas slicing through armor, dual wielding, flails, and the general concept of knights vs vikings vs samurai. What do you guys think is the limit? And are you okay with these kind of stuff?

premiumart
12-03-2015, 09:55 PM
I still haven't been able to fully read through this thread yet. I swear, I'm not ignoring it. I'm just trying to take my time reading through your analysis before contributing. Good work on it, btw. :)



I hope I'm not getting too off-topic, but these things really begs the question of how historically accurate the game will be. There aren't any records of how flails were used in combat and historians wonder if they were even used at all. But as seen in the trailer, there's a hero we can presume is dedicated to it.

The developers said the game isn't historical (obviously), but at the same time it has things like half-swording.

Katanas slicing through armor, dual wielding, flails, and the general concept of knights vs vikings vs samurai. What do you guys think is the limit? And are you okay with these kind of stuff?

Well the core principle of a game is that fact that the player can win. Therefore it has to be "fair". At that point a game is already unrealistic XD.

I think most of us play videogames for entertainment and probably not to experience something in the most historically and or realistic way possible, because lets face it: times were rough and grim.

Of course it is cool if a game draws inspiration from facts, but we also probably want to see awesome stuff that is (probably not) possible.

For me its absolutely fine that katanas "slice" through armor because they were made for slicing. As inconvenient it may seem, it doesnt bother me to see a flail used as weapon, there are probably even weirder weapons that actually have been used to fight or even kill.

To me the concept of dual wielding is like the pinnacle of badassery, i know its not a "effective" fighting style, because of imbalance and stuff but pop culture made this
technique a synonym for mastery and skill.

And even if it sounds absolutely silly and generic that vikings fight samurai and knights, its actually pretty cool. I am actually surprised myself how well the setting seems to fit.

WYRDB0Y
12-03-2015, 11:19 PM
I hope I'm not getting too off-topic, but these things really begs the question of how historically accurate the game will be. There aren't any records of how flails were used in combat and historians wonder if they were even used at all. But as seen in the trailer, there's a hero we can presume is dedicated to it.

Really? I didn't know that, seen them so many times in games (and movies) thought they were a thing back then. But just as there are a lot of misconceptions about the ninja, I can see that this could be hollywood's doing too for example.



The developers said the game isn't historical (obviously), but at the same time it has things like half-swording.

Katanas slicing through armor, dual wielding, flails, and the general concept of knights vs vikings vs samurai. What do you guys think is the limit? And are you okay with these kind of stuff?

They use (at least I would hope) authentic martial artists for the mocap, so I think they would use real techniques. I also think that the Oni isn't dual wield because they realized how hard would it be to balance lest make animations for it that looked convincing yet functional and not OP in it's playstyle (deflect with one hand and stab with the other).



I understand that you don't want them to be too same-y, but swords are such a big part of the Samurai image (in popular culture anyway) that I understand why they'd have two classes wield them. Granted, they might not control the same---the one in shadow might be more deliberate in his strikes, reducing speed but increasing power, for example.

What would you like instead?

Yes, exactly and Oni to me feels already deliberate enough (the overhead strike for example), I don't know how could they top that, but we'll wait and see.:)

What do I want?
Well, what I want the most prolly can't make it into the game, because long chain type weapons like the kusarigama wouldn't fit the art of battle. Then the simple kama without a chain is a peasant's weapon or if you want to be cool about it, say it's a ninja's weapon :p, not fit for a samurai. Sai would be cool, again unlikely.
Since the naginata was in the trailer, we can safely assume it's going to be on one of the classes.
The kanabo/tetsubo we discussed will most likely be in too.
I don't know, maybe there's not enough fitting and creative melee weapons, so they went with another sword unit, in that case it's fine.

MisterWillow
12-05-2015, 06:00 AM
They also don't have to stick to those artworks, as you can see the Oni artwork shows dual wielding swords (which I secretly hope won't be a thing in this game, as it wasn't a common thing in history), but they changed it for the game..

Just wanted to comment on this again, real quick, because I knew I had read somewhere about dual wielding and then I remembered this.



Kono ichi-ryu, nito to natsukuru

Naming This School Ni To, Two swords

As for two swords, it is the duty of all warriors, both commanders and soldiers, to wear two swords directly at his side. In olden times these were called tachi and katana, the great sword and the sword. Nowadays they are called katana and wakizashi, the sword and the short sword. There is no need to describe in detail the carrying of two swords. In our era, the Way of the warrior is to wear two swords at his side, whether he knows anything about them or not. To transmit the advantages of two swords, this school is called Nito Ichi-ryu, The School of Two Swords.

The spear, the naginata, and so on are considered additional weapons among the tools of the warrior.

Beginners in the Way of this school should persue the path and its practices wielding both swords, tachi in one hand, katana in the other. No tool should be left untouched when one's life is in the balance. No one should be willing to die with his swords untested at his side. Holding something in either hand, however, one cannot manipulate it freely to the left and right. The purpose is to make one accustomed to wielding the long sword with one hand. The spear, the naginata, and other large weapons do not apply, but the long sword and the short sword are both weapons that can be held in one hand.

The bad thing about wielding a long sword in each hand is that, first, it is no good on horseback, and no good for quick pursuits, no good for boggy ground, muddy fields, rocky plains, steep roads, or in crowds.

If one wields a bow or a spear or other weapons in the left hand, these are all weapons manageable with one hand; but in wielding a long sword it too must be manageable with one hand; using two hands to wield one long sword is not the true Way. If it is difficult to strike down a man using one hand, then strike using two hands. No time or effort is needed. First, the purpose is to grow accustomed to wielding a long sword in one hand, because for Two Swords, learning to wield a long sword with one hand is the Way.

For anyone holding a long sword in one hand for the first time, it is heavy and difficult to swing. But everything is like that when first taken up: a bow is hard to draw, naginata is hard to swing. In any case, becoming accustomed to using each weapon, one becomes stronger at drawing the bow, one becomes better at swinging the long sword. Obtaining the power of the Way, one uses weapons easily.

The Way of the long sword is not in how quickly on can wield a sword, as is recorded in the second section, the Water Scroll. The long sword is to be wielded in open spaces, the short sword in circumscribed ones. In the beginning, this is the basic intention of the Way.

In this School of Two Swords, one can win whether with a long or short sword. That is why the length of the long sword is not established. The Way of this school is having the heart and mind to achieve victory by any means. Wielding two swords is better than one long sword when one man is fighting a throng of people or when one is sequestered or confined to a small space. There is no need to record in minute detail matters of this kind. Myriad things must be understood from one point. When one has attained the Way of martial arts there will be nothing one cannot see in all one's doings. Reflect deeply on this.

-- Miyamoto Musashi (The Book of Five Rings)

premiumart
12-05-2015, 05:15 PM
After my last post i kept thinking about dual wielding, japan and for honors setting thats inspired by actualy fighting techniques. And i remembered that there is actually a famous historical figure that had influenced fighting styles and that was Miamoto Musashi. Now i feel like dual wielding has to be in the game. XD





Just wanted to comment on this again, real quick, because I knew I had read somewhere about dual wielding and then I remembered this.



Kono ichi-ryu, nito to natsukuru

Naming This School Ni To, Two swords

As for two swords, it is the duty of all warriors, both commanders and soldiers, to wear two swords directly at his side. In olden times these were called tachi and katana, the great sword and the sword. Nowadays they are called katana and wakizashi, the sword and the short sword. There is no need to describe in detail the carrying of two swords. In our era, the Way of the warrior is to wear two swords at his side, whether he knows anything about them or not. To transmit the advantages of two swords, this school is called Nito Ichi-ryu, The School of Two Swords.



I think this kinda became a status symbol. And it would be cool if Miamotos teachings would appear in for honor just like Liechtenauers Longsword techniques. But i think Miamotos teachings werent that popular to be honest, i dont know if thats true i didnt look it up.

MisterWillow
12-06-2015, 09:57 AM
I think this kinda became a status symbol. And it would be cool if Miamotos teachings would appear in for honor just like Liechtenauers Longsword techniques. But i think Miamotos teachings werent that popular to be honest, i dont know if thats true i didnt look it up.

Whether or not his technique was popular, Musashi wrote about it and advocated for its use, so I think there's an argument to be made for its inclusion.

Even in his own self portrait, he depicted himself holding a sword in each hand.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/P03jigazou.jpg

And at Musashizuka Park, in which Musashi is buried, there's a statue of him (based on the self portrait) of him holding both swords at once.

http://i66.tinypic.com/2qaim92.jpg http://i67.tinypic.com/2z9bsdl.jpg

At the bottom of which (the stone to the right), there's a plaque showing five stances of his technique.

http://www.jodojo.com/images/2007_02_Kyushu/kyushu21.jpg

UbiBooma
12-10-2015, 08:26 PM
You guys are awesome, by the way. In case you didn't know.

Fatal-Feit
12-10-2015, 11:59 PM
You guys are awesome, by the way. In case you didn't know.

Yaaaay! Good work, guys! Mod approved. :)

http://i.imgur.com/wW1dH66.gif

premiumart
12-11-2015, 10:50 PM
Whether or not his technique was popular, Musashi wrote about it and advocated for its use, so I think there's an argument to be made for its inclusion.


One could argue that using a unpopular fighting style isnt authentic.

But i dont, i would like to see dual wielding, it would be pretty cool for diversity. Also some appreciation for Miyamoto Musashi.

MisterWillow
12-12-2015, 10:09 AM
You guys are awesome, by the way. In case you didn't know.

Yaaaay! Good work, guys! Mod approved. :)

:cool:

The question is, though, is if any of the speculation here is correct... Can we get a hint, Booma? A friendly wink or nudge? Are we hot? Cold? If you just put an X in a reply if anything is right... no specifics, just tell us if we got one thing right... just an X... in a reply...


One could argue that using a unpopular fighting style isnt authentic.

But i dont, i would like to see dual wielding, it would be pretty cool for diversity. Also some appreciation for Miyamoto Musashi.

Perhaps, but if said unpopular technique is invented by one of the most famous swordmen ever, then it could also be argued that excluding it is a historical disservice, especially in the context of a (vaguely) historical game about sword fighting.

premiumart
12-12-2015, 06:05 PM
Perhaps, but if said unpopular technique is invented by one of the most famous swordmen ever, then it could also be argued that excluding it is a historical disservice, especially in the context of a (vaguely) historical game about sword fighting.

I agree.

MisterWillow
06-11-2016, 03:15 AM
Ummm... is it just me or is that last picture a selfie of someone? Maybe its because I'm on mobile but I haven't seen anyone else mention it.

Hey, I stopped over here to link to another thread, and happened to scroll down and saw this:

http://i68.tinypic.com/rmtfs0.jpg

Is that what you were talking about?

If so, I have no idea where that came from, and when I right-click-to-open-in-new-tab it went right to the proper samurai picture that's supposed to be there. I guess something went wrong with TinyPic or something.

Anyway, I re-uploaded the right picture and linked to that, so hopefully it doesn't happen again.

Willaguy2010
06-11-2016, 08:17 AM
That's exactly the picture I was talking about. That was really weird.

AvarusTyrannus
06-11-2016, 08:40 AM
My money is on the middle chosen having a Kanabo, but that's based predominantly on that being what I want to have happen.

TrikRisk
06-28-2016, 11:29 AM
The chosen are so badass! Damn, nice digging Mister Willow. The Chosens that are shadowy seem to be a Kensei and a Kabuki, the other one seems like a guy with a polearm which we can see right there on the left in the Oni helmet where it is breaking; a polearm warrior is running out of it. The name I don't know. And, from what I know, Kensei means Sword Saint and Kabuki means someone or something that is only done for show, if you knoww hat I mean.

Well btw, I am creating a thread to talk about how a Ninja class should be implemented. I'll edit this post and write the link in here for you to see if you are interested.