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View Full Version : Jack The Ripper DLC Achievements (SPOILERS)



harsab
11-25-2015, 06:00 PM
http://www.trueachievements.com/dlc.aspx?dlcid=5621

Hmm, doesn't look too interesting but i shouldn't be judging from the achievements.

Thoughts?

RVSage
11-25-2015, 06:24 PM
http://www.trueachievements.com/dlc.aspx?dlcid=5621

Hmm, doesn't look too interesting but i shouldn't be judging from the achievements.

Thoughts?

Nothing spoilery so far, which is good :D

BananaBlighter
11-25-2015, 06:36 PM
Nice to see that stealth has some sort of fear mechanic. Is this leading me to believe...

That we'll be playing as Jack the Ripper?

Also, what's a BRUTAL takedown. I don't remember those in vanilla Syndicate, and it seems to be something...

Jack the Ripper would do

We've also got some new skills which is nice, though hopefully they're not just stat boosters, and significantly affect gameplay.

RVSage
11-25-2015, 06:38 PM
Nice to see that stealth has some sort of fear mechanic. Is this leading me to believe...

That we'll be playing as Jack the Ripper?

I do not think so, maybe some kinda , fight fear with fear like concept

VestigialLlama4
11-25-2015, 06:50 PM
Fear mechanic seems interesting to add for a Ripper DLC.

Nothing spoilery at all in achievement titles which is good.

7 Achievements is same as Dead Kings so it might be as long...about three hours.

There's also another DLC, the last maharaja coming after this, in January.

VestigialLlama4
11-25-2015, 06:54 PM
Full description of the Secret Achievement:

http://www.xboxachievements.com/game/assassins-creed-syndicate/achievement/110300-A-well-kept-secret.html

RVSage
11-25-2015, 06:57 PM
Full description of the Secret Achievement:

http://www.xboxachievements.com/game/assassins-creed-syndicate/achievement/110300-A-well-kept-secret.html

I have a good feeling for this DLC, when is it out?

Danny_rx7
11-25-2015, 08:40 PM
Nice to see that stealth has some sort of fear mechanic. Is this leading me to believe...

That we'll be playing as Jack the Ripper?


We'll be playing as Evie:

http://i.imgur.com/g8fmdVq.jpg

BananaBlighter
11-25-2015, 08:46 PM
We'll be playing as Evie:

http://i.imgur.com/g8fmdVq.jpg



I know I've seen that, but y'know, they always like to surprise us with something (not really) :p

The poster implies that we don't play as Jacob, and so it's possible we'll be getting a new replacement dual protagonist. Since there's an achievement for acquiring all skills, this could be referring to the new skill tree for the new protagonist, with such skills that would cause 'fear'.


Since the hidden trophy confirms Jack's death, it would be interesting to see how they'd handle killing off a controllable protagonist, if this theory is correct.

Auditore8
11-26-2015, 07:33 AM
I don't think Jacob is the Jack the Ripper, according to his Wikia page (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Jacob_Frye) it says that after WWI broke out in 1914 he and Evie were moved from London. The secret achievement implies that Jack is dealt with, so it couldn't be Jacob.

RA503
11-27-2015, 12:35 AM
Maybe we will have a ''fear'' peace of eden ? the strange is that the Apple basically already do that, we maybe will have a Apple spin off like the ''Head of Saint Denis ?''

AC 3 DLC show Washington's Apple,Unity's Napoleon (the small one inside ST head),maybe jack stole the apple from Queen Elizabeth 1 that still in the royal family until Victoria's time...

Sorrosyss
11-28-2015, 02:19 AM
Interesting about the fear mechanic. Does almost imply we may play as Jack. Which would be... a little unsettling. :p

We've debated the Jacob the Ripper theory to death, but the German insert definitely said Evie is hunting her brother. So here's a theory. What's to say that the twins don't have a much older brother? I keep remembering that Emmett Frye that appeared in the modern day section, we still know nothing about them. It would certainly explain why the Ripper appears to be wearing an Assassin symbol on their back. Hmm.

RA503
11-28-2015, 06:04 AM
Jacob probably is only being accused of being Jack,from newspaper or maybe a templar trick...

I-Like-Pie45
11-28-2015, 06:09 AM
Jack the Ripper is really Jacob from an alternate universe, invading with a brand-new PoE that does such a thing

melbye82
11-28-2015, 01:35 PM
Crazy theory time. Jack the Ripper is a First Civilization person who got disembodied and trapped in a Piece of Eden and is freed and can now possess people

Pandassin
11-28-2015, 02:48 PM
There's been some interesting actions revealed:

http://i65.tinypic.com/2vkey3q.jpghttp://i63.tinypic.com/xp78ts.jpghttp://i64.tinypic.com/168hflh.jpghttp://i68.tinypic.com/k3rh9v.jpg

I'm really, really excited to see how this turns out.

Sorrosyss
11-28-2015, 03:20 PM
The soundtrack has gone up with the release date of December 15th. Hopefully the DLC is the same. Or before.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B018N5NFLE/

RA503
11-28-2015, 03:49 PM
A DLC with more tham 10 Sequences Holy Mother of God I loved...


'' Familly Reunion'' ...

VestigialLlama4
11-28-2015, 04:06 PM
A DLC with more tham 10 Sequences Holy Mother of God I loved...


'' Familly Reunion'' ...

IT's 10 Memories...so it's a really long single sequence rather than 10 Sequences.

NAVID4ASSASSIN
11-28-2015, 06:05 PM
i just hope we get to play as jacob too with a new outfit, or atleast jack the ripper, any male characters not just evie, i like playing as her but i completed 80% of the game with jacob.

RaggedTyper
11-28-2015, 08:44 PM
I have to say I find it quite disturbing that so many people actually WANT to play as jack the ripper. Why do people idolise serial killers?

UbiSmarmy
11-28-2015, 11:31 PM
I have to say I find it quite disturbing that so many people actually WANT to play as jack the ripper. Why do people idolise serial killers?

I think a lot of it comes from the deviance from the norm, you don't normally get to play as the antagonist. Maybe some escapism in the fact that you get to see what the writers would think Jack the Ripper would be like in the head. There's so much that could be done with such an almost mythical character.

Either way it looks like a nice edition to Syndicate.

Assassin_M
11-28-2015, 11:52 PM
I have to say I find it quite disturbing that so many people actually WANT to play as jack the ripper. Why do people idolise serial killers?
It's not gonna make anyone go out and murder prostitutes at night, don't worry.

RaggedTyper
11-29-2015, 12:39 AM
I think a lot of it comes from the deviance from the norm, you don't normally get to play as the antagonist. Maybe some escapism in the fact that you get to see what the writers would think Jack the Ripper would be like in the head. There's so much that could be done with such an almost mythical character.

Either way it looks like a nice edition to Syndicate.

Ok, but would gamers find it as appealing to play as Hitler just because we get to see it from his perspective?

I-Like-Pie45
11-29-2015, 07:52 AM
Jack the Ripper dlc gameplay ending with Evie, Jacob, and Henry Green leaked! (https://youtu.be/q6G2Kh_wVIU?t=2m42s)

ImaginaryRuins
11-29-2015, 11:23 AM
I have to say I find it quite disturbing that so many people actually WANT to play as jack the ripper. Why do people idolise serial killers?

Your point isn't entirely wrong; I understand why you would feel that. Yet look at the current gaming world. We have so many FPS. Would you find that disturbing that so many people want to shoot and kill others as the games idolise people who have guns? We have Tekkan, Street Fighters, King of Fighters, and would you find that disturbing that many want to punch and hurt others?

RaggedTyper
11-29-2015, 12:01 PM
Your point isn't entirely wrong; I understand why you would feel that. Yet look at the current gaming world. We have so many FPS. Would you find that disturbing that so many people want to shoot and kill others as the games idolise people who have guns? We have Tekkan, Street Fighters, King of Fighters, and would you find that disturbing that many want to punch and hurt others?

Ok, here's the difference. Jack the Ripper was a real person. That actually happened. He gutted women for sport. That's why I made the Hitler comparison. Jack the Ripper isn't some fictional myth, he was a real life monster and I'm tired of entertainment media celebrating and glorifying him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk1wUKoXL20

ImaginaryRuins
11-29-2015, 04:35 PM
Jack the Ripper was a real person. He gutted women for sport. That's why I made the Hitler comparison. Jack the Ripper isn't some fictional myth, he was a real life monster and I'm tired of entertainment media celebrating and glorifying him.

Indeed, Jack the Ripper was real, and at the same time, mysterious because even now there is not a definite identify on who he was. So, while J.t.R. was real, he also could be anyone, just like many imaginary video game characters in this aspect. I am not speaking in the defense of Jack's murders tough. Moreover, as the secret achievement of the DLC said it, Jack would be dead and his identity kept a secret forever. He would not escape justice..

Megas_Doux
11-29-2015, 05:59 PM
Let's see how it fares.....

BTW, The Tyranny is my favorite DLC in the Franchise.

dimbismp
11-29-2015, 06:26 PM
Guys if you closely watch the trailer that was released a while back,you will notice that Jack's combat and walking animations,even the way he stands,feel like the animations of a AC playable character.

However,i don't see the Jack=Jacob thing happening,even if it is a product of Templar propaganda.

NAVID4ASSASSIN
11-29-2015, 07:38 PM
Guys if you closely watch the trailer that was released a while back,you will notice that Jack's combat and walking animations,even the way he stands,feel like the animations of a AC playable character.

However,i don't see the Jack=Jacob thing happening,even if it is a product of Templar propaganda.

now that i watched the trailer again i think yes jack has male protagonists gameplay animation walking or standing like arno or jacob, im 80% sure we will play as jack in this dlc along evie.

VestigialLlama4
11-29-2015, 07:48 PM
Guys if you closely watch the trailer that was released a while back,you will notice that Jack's combat and walking animations,even the way he stands,feel like the animations of a AC playable character.

However,i don't see the Jack=Jacob thing happening,even if it is a product of Templar propaganda.

The Doylist Explanation is Ubisoft are a bunch of cheapskates and they had to cobble a spoiler-free trailer so they used animations of player characters for a trailer centered on an NPC (since that is the first such trailer to show extensive movement for a villain).

To continue with the Doylist explanation, think about it, something as major as a player protagonist, whose face adorns the marketing and branding of the company, is transformed into a playable serial killer of women for a DLC expansion...nobody does that.

They had to market Tyranny DLC as Alternate Universe explicitly (at least in promotion before they said it was all a dream). They're not going to make Jacob into a total psychopath and misogynist for a throwaway expansion, that kind of stuff would have to be dealt with in the main game.

BananaBlighter
11-29-2015, 08:04 PM
I'm still pretty convinced we'll get to play as Jack. I'm sure Jacob's not Jack, but that doesn't stop them from introducing a new protagonist.

Would be interesting to see how it's dealt with. Do WE the player have to carry out any of his killing? That's just going too far. Would we know Jack's identity though, before the finale? I mean, it'd be quite cool if the whole time we're playing as this guy and we don't even know his identity.

VestigialLlama4
11-29-2015, 08:08 PM
Do WE the player have to carry out any of his killing? That's just going too far.

What would be the point of playing a serial killer if we don't actually play them as they kill innocent people. Then you aren't a serial killer at all. You are just a criminal escaping police and I question anyone who wants a Jack the Ripper game to be about that because it's not about the victims at all.

There's a reason why GTA is respected. You played a criminal and it allowed you to be a criminal without sanitizing what a criminal does. Criminals kill cops, deal drugs, attack innocent people and you do that in GTA. That's why we respect GTA and not a chickens--t game like True Crime or Sleeping Dogs where we played "cops" who go "undercover".

It's why I hate Rogue, why make a Templar game where you don't indulge in the Templar fantasy of killing a bunch of people for the "greater good".

I-Like-Pie45
11-29-2015, 08:10 PM
jack the rippers victims were just prostitutes that are long dead, I don't think anyone would miss them or be offended by them being killed in a video game

RaggedTyper
11-29-2015, 08:14 PM
jack the rippers victims were just prostitutes that are long dead, I don't think anyone would miss them or be offended by them being killed in a video game

You're desperately unfunny.

BananaBlighter
11-29-2015, 10:20 PM
What would be the point of playing a serial killer if we don't actually play them as they kill innocent people. Then you aren't a serial killer at all. You are just a criminal escaping police and I question anyone who wants a Jack the Ripper game to be about that because it's not about the victims at all.

There's a reason why GTA is respected. You played a criminal and it allowed you to be a criminal without sanitizing what a criminal does. Criminals kill cops, deal drugs, attack innocent people and you do that in GTA. That's why we respect GTA and not a chickens--t game like True Crime or Sleeping Dogs where we played "cops" who go "undercover".

It's why I hate Rogue, why make a Templar game where you don't indulge in the Templar fantasy of killing a bunch of people for the "greater good".

It's just Jack's murders were a bit extreme. Like if we have to watch a cutscene of him doing the whole thing, or even worse, with QTEs. I think it should explore it somehow, maybe have a few missions where we stalk and select Jack's next target, the whole preparation thingy.

What if, one of our targets happens to be Evie in disguise, and just as we're about to attack her, the control switches to Evie and we have a fight. That way we don't have to see all the gruesome stuff, but get an insight in to how he murders.

Assassin_M
11-29-2015, 10:53 PM
Oh god, all these people and their ambiguous and confusing morality lines. So what if we played Jack? So what if we kill the victims ourselves? Ohohohoh so offensive, please. This is a game where we bloody kill REAL people. We kill men, we kill women and we even kill mentally ill individuals.

Some people draw the weirdest lines at the most inconsistent place. If your emoshuns can't take playing Jack, might as well drop the series altogether and stop playing GTA and other games like it. I guess that's why many companies make military themed games. Murder is acceptable when coated by a military topping. "Hey, yo, our military kills and bombs children, but that's okay because it's for your freedom". How about we also make this series rated E for everyone? Where every game is a parody of murder like Syndicate? Syndicate is worse than friggin GTA now. It satirizes murder. Jacob slits the throat of some politic snob because he's annoying, for cripe's sake. Ezio refers to "sneaking and stabbing" as a game and that it's nice to change the pace of his murder from time to time. We play as a 14 year old Connor as he murders people. We play as a 14 year old Ellie who violently slashes people (Oh, but it's ooohhh so gross and people gag when it's implied that David was a pedophile) I get it, I guess. You people want the gruesome fantasy of murder just.....without the actual gruesomeness of the act.

It's truly mind boggling where people will draw the line. Sorry, then, I suppose none of the people whining about the possibility of playing as Jack should question the morality of others who want to play (Comparing him to Hitler...how childish). I suppose none of you will also lecture people who come here complaining about sex and profanity in AC, right? I mean, you people draw the line in weird places just as they do, so it'd be kind of hypocritical to dictate for others where they're supposed to draw the line.

What a weird set of morals people can have. Get over yourselves.

BananaBlighter
11-29-2015, 11:06 PM
I actually hope we can play as Jack, but just don't see Ubisoft going too deep with it. I'm very interested in to how they'd do it. Would they just show him as a crazy maniac, making him as unlikable as possible, or create some excuse for all his killings?

Like, it's different when we actually play as Jack, rather than just witness and learn about his killings. Everyone knows him as this psychopath so when we get to control him it'd just feel weird. Like I get all the assassins go round killin' people, but they've got their excuses. I just wanna see what Jack's will be.

VestigialLlama4
11-30-2015, 05:41 AM
Oh god, all these people and their ambiguous and confusing morality lines. So what if we played Jack? So what if we kill the victims ourselves? Ohohohoh so offensive, please. This is a game where we bloody kill REAL people. We kill men, we kill women and we even kill mentally ill individuals.

Some people draw the weirdest lines at the most inconsistent place. If your emoshuns can't take playing Jack, might as well drop the series altogether and stop playing GTA and other games like it. I guess that's why many companies make military themed games. Murder is acceptable when coated by a military topping. "Hey, yo, our military kills and bombs children, but that's okay because it's for your freedom". How about we also make this series rated E for everyone? Where every game is a parody of murder like Syndicate? Syndicate is worse than friggin GTA now. It satirizes murder. Jacob slits the throat of some politic snob because he's annoying, for cripe's sake. Ezio refers to "sneaking and stabbing" as a game and that it's nice to change the pace of his murder from time to time. We play as a 14 year old Connor as he murders people. We play as a 14 year old Ellie who violently slashes people (Oh, but it's ooohhh so gross and people gag when it's implied that David was a pedophile) I get it, I guess. You people want the gruesome fantasy of murder just.....without the actual gruesomeness of the act.

It's truly mind boggling where people will draw the line. Sorry, then, I suppose none of the people whining about the possibility of playing as Jack should question the morality of others who want to play (Comparing him to Hitler...how childish). I suppose none of you will also lecture people who come here complaining about sex and profanity in AC, right? I mean, you people draw the line in weird places just as they do, so it'd be kind of hypocritical to dictate for others where they're supposed to draw the line.

What a weird set of morals people can have. Get over yourselves.

What you say is generally true yes. But it's because Syndicate is "a parody of murder", that most games don't take murder and killing seriously that they should not have us play Jack the Ripper...the fact is actual women died in very gruesome circumstances. The victims were the absolutely poor and vulnerable of society. If you were to play as Jack the Ripper, you are using fake murder to trivialize real killings.

And yes people draw the line...because that's how civilization works. Contrary to what people believe, we always have an acceptable tolerance level of violence. Games like AC, Call of Duty and GTA all work because they have a proper distance towards violence.

- Call of Duty is military shooter and we always, always kill other soldiers and bad guys and never civilians, not even accidentally (except for No Russian). A realistic soldier game would have all those inconvenient civilians, those women and children, those farms which provide livelihood to actual people which you burn down because you wanted to have an awesome shoot-out with a bunch of other bad guys...and so on. Metal Gear Phantom Pain is much the same with the Afghanistan without Afghanis.

- AC works because you don't kill civilians, you kill guards and even then you don't have the kill the guards and most of the time we see guards behave like jerks so don't cry too many tears. After all this is the past and it's mostly all kingdoms and kingdoms are inherently corrupt. Syndicate draws distinctions between Templars and Cops, we can use nonlethal means to subdue cops, we can arrest and kidnap crooks to take them alive.

- GTA works because it's an over-the-top parody alternate universe.

cawatrooper9
11-30-2015, 10:57 PM
What you say is generally true yes. But it's because Syndicate is "a parody of murder", that most games don't take murder and killing seriously that they should not have us play Jack the Ripper...the fact is actual women died in very gruesome circumstances. The victims were the absolutely poor and vulnerable of society. If you were to play as Jack the Ripper, you are using fake murder to trivialize real killings.

And yes people draw the line...because that's how civilization works. Contrary to what people believe, we always have an acceptable tolerance level of violence. Games like AC, Call of Duty and GTA all work because they have a proper distance towards violence.

- Call of Duty is military shooter and we always, always kill other soldiers and bad guys and never civilians, not even accidentally (except for No Russian). A realistic soldier game would have all those inconvenient civilians, those women and children, those farms which provide livelihood to actual people which you burn down because you wanted to have an awesome shoot-out with a bunch of other bad guys...and so on. Metal Gear Phantom Pain is much the same with the Afghanistan without Afghanis.

- AC works because you don't kill civilians, you kill guards and even then you don't have the kill the guards and most of the time we see guards behave like jerks so don't cry too many tears. After all this is the past and it's mostly all kingdoms and kingdoms are inherently corrupt. Syndicate draws distinctions between Templars and Cops, we can use nonlethal means to subdue cops, we can arrest and kidnap crooks to take them alive.

- GTA works because it's an over-the-top parody alternate universe.

Ah, but don't forget, AC writes its own history. They take real murders as well- such as those of the Medici family (many of whom were indeed "civilians" and rewrite the circumstances to make their deaths more palatable. Now, I'd doubt that the game would try to paint Jack's victims in a negative light to justify his killings, but we might play as a somewhat sympathetic Jack- someone who we disagree with, but still can see how he ticks. After all, if no names are used and the killings aren't taken from specific real life circumstances, what's to say that portraying an ambiguous death that may have been at the hands of an old serial killer is any better than showing a man's death at Normandy Beach (see: pretty much every WWII shooter ever) or the atrocities of the slave trade (see: several AC titles!).

Assassin_M
11-30-2015, 11:03 PM
What you say is generally true yes. But it's because Syndicate is "a parody of murder", that most games don't take murder and killing seriously that they should not have us play Jack the Ripper...the fact is actual women died in very gruesome circumstances. The victims were the absolutely poor and vulnerable of society. If you were to play as Jack the Ripper, you are using fake murder to trivialize real killings.

Wouldn't you say that this kind of proves my point? The parodizing and satirizing of murder could very well lead to the exact opposite of what this process was supposed to do? Murder becomes such a trivial matter that the gruesomeness of it becomes less.....gruesome. If being Jack the ripper trivializes the real life murders (Presumably by "fake" you're referring to the fact that it's a video game), then why discuss any real life issues at all? Why portray murder? Lets just strip AC of all and any serious philosophical and political discussions, since it could trivialize these things because, you know, they're fake. Doesn't MGS trivialize the atrocities of armies because it's a fake portrayal of the whole issue? Doesn't GTA trivialize shootings and rampages because it's a parody?

It's kind of cowardly to shy away from the subject of how gruesome murder is by making it a parody. That's a pretty easy route to take that many games already took. I just don't get how people call for AC to NOT be cowardly and go back to discussing serious philosophical issues like religion, but then everyone's fine with this portrayal of murder. We've been killing real people all throughout the AC series, but suddenly, Jack the Ripper is a red line. It's inconsistent.


And yes people draw the line...because that's how civilization works. Contrary to what people believe, we always have an acceptable tolerance level of violence. Games like AC, Call of Duty and GTA all work because they have a proper distance towards violence.

Drawing the line is not my problem, it's where it's drawn. To me, drawing the line at Jack the Ripper is pretty confusing because we've been pretty much doing what Jack the Ripper did all throughout the series. Ignoring the developers' attempts at glorifying the military's acts and criminal rampage, it's the same basic concept. Okay, so MGS takes out civilians and AC strips you of the ability to murder innocent bystanders. Would Jack the Ripper be more acceptable if it made the prostitutes armed conspirators? That's what you're basically saying. The military murders innocent civilians in real life, but the games strip that gruesome aspect so it's acceptable. By that same logic, it'd be acceptable to play Jack if we made the prostitutes he kills evil prostitute androids or something. Hey, it's not how it happened in real life, but now it's acceptable.

Oh and, for the record. You can totally lawyer me. I can, of course, be wrong. Difference in views never spoils civility and good discussion, eh?

VestigialLlama4
12-01-2015, 06:41 AM
Wouldn't you say that this kind of proves my point? The parodizing and satirizing of murder could very well lead to the exact opposite of what this process was supposed to do? Murder becomes such a trivial matter that the gruesomeness of it becomes less.....gruesome.

Well that's actually a whole separate thing. How AC as a franchise deals with violence as a whole...I can see how this could segue into that, but for me that merits a whole separate post or a series of posts about that. I will say that AC1 and AC3 are the only games that tried to put a gravity to the issue of violence, the other games treat violence as more or less unreal or as a game. The broader idea of AC is that violence is a part of civilization and history which is true and the game is a clash between the Assassin's band of violence and the Templar violence. But anyway, that is a whole separate discussion.


If being Jack the ripper trivializes the real life murders (Presumably by "fake" you're referring to the fact that it's a video game), then why discuss any real life issues at all? Why portray murder?

There are instances in AC where they dealt with real violence. I am thinking of course of Freedom Cry, the finale with the sinking of that slave ship and all those people drowning around you. And that violence is presented differently from the usual you against 20 guards. You can also cite Blackbeard's death in Black Flag, where we see him being cut up and oozing blood showing what actually would happen to Edward if he wasn't a video game character and didn't have the health bar and whatnot. Within the AC games, the worst and most intense violence is always that which is done to the powerless...whether to little Connor, to the slaves on Adewale's ship, Blackbeard during his retirement where he's attacked at his most vulnerable, and even in AC1 where you have the violence done by the Templars before Altair sweeps in.


To me, drawing the line at Jack the Ripper is pretty confusing because we've been pretty much doing what Jack the Ripper did all throughout the series.

No we haven't. The Assassins don't target innocent civilians. They certainly don't go around stabbing prostitutes in the middle of the night by getting their confidence. We only attack guards and as I said before, the guards are not innocent. To get at what Jack the Ripper it's like if Ezio after hiring some courtesans, led them, and the circle of blending into a dark alley and then killed them, and then used the hidden blade to remove their organs. We don't do that at any point in the games.

You can say that all killing is the same and in a general universal sense that is true but the fact is reality always does draw distinctions.


Would Jack the Ripper be more acceptable if it made the prostitutes armed conspirators? That's what you're basically saying. The military murders innocent civilians in real life, but the games strip that gruesome aspect so it's acceptable. By that same logic, it'd be acceptable to play Jack if we made the prostitutes he kills evil prostitute androids or something. Hey, it's not how it happened in real life, but now it's acceptable.

Oh and, for the record. You can totally lawyer me. I can, of course, be wrong. Difference in views never spoils civility and good discussion, eh?

The fact is Jack the Ripper didn't kill evil androids, we know who he killed. That's all we know. He killed poor women, disease-ridden slum dwellers, who had wretched lives. He didn't kill them, he also cut up their bodies and removed organs and in the case of the last victim, Mary Kelly, he mutilated her entire body, skin and internal organs to the point that she was unrecognizable when the police found her. That is a whole other level than anything AC or any vidoe game can deal with. To truly deal with that, you can't be an AC game you have to do it separately and if you were to do that properly then it would be unplayable.

The fact is games and movies sanitize violence. You have a TV show about Hannibal Lecter because he kills other serial killers. The usual dirty trick is to make it acceptable to the audience by painting the victims as bad or evil. AC is guilty of this but it does complicate it more than other games.

RA503
12-01-2015, 08:19 PM
Guys we will don't will play as Jack,I think that the Fear mechanic we will unlock as Eve,will be the Gimmick of this DLC like the Lamp in Dead Kings...

siralex1986
12-02-2015, 01:59 PM
I honestly don't believe Jack is Jacob, the voice in the trailer sounds completely different and, at least in my version, it sounded no altered or camouflaged, it was a clear voice

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 03:50 PM
I honestly don't believe Jack is Jacob, the voice in the trailer sounds completely different and, at least in my version, it sounded no altered or camouflaged, it was a clear voice

I just rewatched it for the first time. It could conceivably be him- Jacob's tone almost always has a humorous/lighthearted inflection in the game, so I suppose this could be him with a darker tone. However, the line that really still bothers me is "I love my work and want to start again." I just can't help but think that this refers to the fact that Jack is absolutely a character we already know- and definitely someone who has killed extensively before. An Assassin is almost certainly implied, and that certainly narrows down our list quite a bit. I think we can rule out Evie since she's the playable character (unless the game has some psychological horror roots), and I doubt it's Henry since I think we'd have recognized his accent. That leaves Jacob and (my personal theorized culprit) George, their companion in the beginning of the game.

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2015, 04:15 PM
I just rewatched it for the first time. It could conceivably be him- Jacob's tone almost always has a humorous/lighthearted inflection in the game, so I suppose this could be him with a darker tone. However, the line that really still bothers me is "I love my work and want to start again." I just can't help but think that this refers to the fact that Jack is absolutely a character we already know- and definitely someone who has killed extensively before. An Assassin is almost certainly implied, and that certainly narrows down our list quite a bit. I think we can rule out Evie since she's the playable character (unless the game has some psychological horror roots), and I doubt it's Henry since I think we'd have recognized his accent. That leaves Jacob and (my personal theorized culprit) George, their companion in the beginning of the game.

The fact is Jacob in Syndicate is explicitly not a guy who will kill innocent women and cut up their organs. In Syndicate, Jacob kills Templars who do those things. He kills Elliotson for burrowing into someone's skull while they're still alive (which by the way is worse than what Jack the Ripper did...the ripper killed the women before removing their organs).

The fact of the matter is that there's no way you are going to make a plot twist like hero ends up becoming a mad killer and dump it on a story DLC that only some people will buy. From marketing it means that the guy in the posters and trailers is entirely worthless and creepy.

Even Alfred Hitchcock when he promoted Psycho, he didn't put Norman Bates in the promotion, he put Janet Leigh's character Marion there because even the most manipulative of all film-makers draws a distinction between creating suspense and preserving a plot twist and outright lying and conning the audience.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 04:23 PM
The fact is Jacob in Syndicate is explicitly not a guy who will kill innocent women and cut up their organs. In Syndicate, Jacob kills Templars who do those things. He kills Elliotson for burrowing into someone's skull while they're still alive (which by the way is worse than what Jack the Ripper did...the ripper killed the women before removing their organs).

The fact of the matter is that there's no way you are going to make a plot twist like hero ends up becoming a mad killer and dump it on a story DLC that only some people will buy. From marketing it means that the guy in the posters and trailers is entirely worthless and creepy.

Even Alfred Hitchcock when he promoted Psycho, he didn't put Norman Bates in the promotion, he put Janet Leigh's character Marion there because even the most manipulative of all film-makers draws a distinction between creating suspense and preserving a plot twist and outright lying and conning the audience.

Or perhaps not everyone subscribes to your rigid views on portrayals of character morality.

In truth, I agree with you that it's probably not Jacob (as I wrote, my money's on George). I just wanted to point out that it isn't inconceivable that Jack's voice could be Jacob (taking only the voice into account).

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2015, 04:31 PM
Or perhaps not everyone subscribes to your rigid views on portrayals of character morality.

Rigid views...I am going by what the game shows. If Jacob is a potential Jack the Ripper...he wouldn't have swept down and saved those child labourers from Roth. The Ripper killings were specifically targeted attacks on the vulnerable and destitute, there's no getting around that.


In truth, I agree with you that it's probably not Jacob (as I wrote, my money's on George). I just wanted to point out that it isn't inconceivable that Jack's voice could be Jacob (taking only the voice into account).

It's most likely that Jackie boy is the Sage and if he's a Sage then who Jack is or is not doesn't matter. He's Aita in the end.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 04:37 PM
Rigid views...I am going by what the game shows. If Jacob is a potential Jack the Ripper...he wouldn't have swept down and saved those child labourers from Roth. The Ripper killings were specifically targeted attacks on the vulnerable and destitute, there's no getting around that.


And something could've changed with him. Again, I'm not saying this is likely, but there's no reason to campaign for a "color-by-number" method of storytelling.



It's most likely that Jackie boy is the Sage and if he's a Sage then who Jack is or is not doesn't matter. He's Aita in the end.

Interesting. That's not something I've considered. Makes sense, though.

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2015, 04:41 PM
just because jacob doesn't like torturing defenseless people in the game doesn't mean he wouldn't have changed his viewpoints twenty later in a dlc

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 04:48 PM
And something could've changed with him. Again, I'm not saying this is likely, but there's no reason to campaign for a "color-by-number" method of storytelling.

It's not that he can't change, it's that the narrative structure doesn't set that up.

Imagine if we get a new Connor game set 20 years after, and in that game Connor is cruel, bloodthirsty, torturing person who wants to kill all kittens in the world or smth. That would feel off because AC3 is not set up for that and it's jarring.

Jacob's arc in ACS gets him FARTHER from possibility of being Jack, that it can suddenly change is poor storytelling. It doesn't mean 'color by numbers' storytelling, though.

I think turning Jacob into Jack would be sadistic and brilliant. But with the narrative structure of ACS, there's nothing that could lead to that.

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2015, 04:53 PM
It's not that he can't change, it's that the narrative structure doesn't set that up.

Imagine if we get a new Connor game set 20 years after, and in that game Connor is cruel, bloodthirsty, torturing person who wants to kill all kittens in the world or smth. That would feel off because AC3 is not set up for that and it's jarring.

Jacob's arc in ACS gets him FARTHER from possibility of being Jack, that it can suddenly change is poor storytelling. It doesn't mean 'color by numbers' storytelling, though.

I think turning Jacob into Jack would be sadistic and brilliant. But with the narrative structure of ACS, there's nothing that could lead to that.
it's not poor storytelling, in fact I think it's brilliant because it encourages the community fill in the holes themselves! Anything that promotes the use of one's imagination is good in this age of know-everything and hand-holding!

siralex1986
12-02-2015, 05:05 PM
I just rewatched it for the first time. It could conceivably be him- Jacob's tone almost always has a humorous/lighthearted inflection in the game, so I suppose this could be him with a darker tone. However, the line that really still bothers me is "I love my work and want to start again." I just can't help but think that this refers to the fact that Jack is absolutely a character we already know- and definitely someone who has killed extensively before. An Assassin is almost certainly implied, and that certainly narrows down our list quite a bit. I think we can rule out Evie since she's the playable character (unless the game has some psychological horror roots), and I doubt it's Henry since I think we'd have recognized his accent. That leaves Jacob and (my personal theorized culprit) George, their companion in the beginning of the game.

Well, haven't watched the English trailer, but in my language the voices are definitely different and not from the same person.

While the DLC descriptions saying we'll use Evie would lead us to think Jacob is somehow not involved or involved in a different way, it might also be just a way to advertise Evie a bit since the main game mainly features Jacob.

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2015, 05:09 PM
It's not that he can't change, it's that the narrative structure doesn't set that up.

Imagine if we get a new Connor game set 20 years after, and in that game Connor is cruel, bloodthirsty, torturing person who wants to kill all kittens in the world or smth. That would feel off because AC3 is not set up for that and it's jarring.

Jacob's arc in ACS gets him FARTHER from possibility of being Jack, that it can suddenly change is poor storytelling. It doesn't mean 'color by numbers' storytelling, though.

I think turning Jacob into Jack would be sadistic and brilliant. But with the narrative structure of ACS, there's nothing that could lead to that.

The thing is I am all for a story that goes into a dark direction like that. But something like that has to be in the main game, it's something that needs to be tackled in depth and not a story DLC followed by a second mission pack (Last Maharaja) about Jacob being a good guy and hero again.

It's like watching a movie about Dirty Harry and then in the direct-to-video sequel, Harry Callahan becomes a serial killer.

Syndicate is a light-hearted chirpy story about a brother and sister who fight a lot but deep down care greatly for each other...going from there to psycho-mutilator of women is totally and narratively nonsensical and insulting.

ImaginaryRuins
12-02-2015, 05:19 PM
Seems quite a number of people believe Jack could be Jacob.

That would not happen according to the secret achievement, which says Jack is DEAD and his identity hidden forever. However, Jacob managed to live on to at least WW1.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 05:25 PM
It's not that he can't change, it's that the narrative structure doesn't set that up.

Imagine if we get a new Connor game set 20 years after, and in that game Connor is cruel, bloodthirsty, torturing person who wants to kill all kittens in the world or smth. That would feel off because AC3 is not set up for that and it's jarring.

Jacob's arc in ACS gets him FARTHER from possibility of being Jack, that it can suddenly change is poor storytelling. It doesn't mean 'color by numbers' storytelling, though.

I think turning Jacob into Jack would be sadistic and brilliant. But with the narrative structure of ACS, there's nothing that could lead to that.


The thing is I am all for a story that goes into a dark direction like that. But something like that has to be in the main game, it's something that needs to be tackled in depth and not a story DLC followed by a second mission pack (Last Maharaja) about Jacob being a good guy and hero again.

It's like watching a movie about Dirty Harry and then in the direct-to-video sequel, Harry Callahan becomes a serial killer.

Syndicate is a light-hearted chirpy story about a brother and sister who fight a lot but deep down care greatly for each other...going from there to psycho-mutilator of women is totally and narratively nonsensical and insulting.

There's this little TV show called Game of Thrones where insane characterization decisions like that happen all the time... perhaps you guys have heard of it? :rolleyes:

Seriously though, I have a degree in literature, so I understand how structure can be important, but that doesn't mean that it's always necessary. For instance, I assume you may be familiar with the concept of "plot armor", or the idea that certain characters simply cannot die (or otherwise be disposed of) because they're too essential to the plot. Now, this may seem necessary in some cases, but whenever storytellers break it (such as when the American protagonist in Call of Duty 4 dies halfway through the game) they are widely applauded.

I think this is applicable here as well. Your arguments are basically "this is not what I expect to happen, so it cannot be so". Well, if that's so, then I'll have to assume that you're a writer for Ubisoft- otherwise, that has no merit whatsoever!



Well, haven't watched the English trailer, but in my language the voices are definitely different and not from the same person.

While the DLC descriptions saying we'll use Evie would lead us to think Jacob is somehow not involved or involved in a different way, it might also be just a way to advertise Evie a bit since the main game mainly features Jacob.
Ah interesting. Yeah, that might just be a fluke on the marketing team.

And yes, Evie might be getting the spotlight just to make up for all of Jacob's time in Syndicate, but I think that'll be reflected in the gameplay as well.

BananaBlighter
12-02-2015, 05:29 PM
Seems quite a number of people believe Jack could be Jacob.

That would not happen according to the secret achievement, which says Jack is DEAD and his identity hidden forever. However, Jacob managed to live on to at least WW1.

This. It cannot be Jacob.

Also gotta agree with Vestigial here, that if Jacob was indeed Jack, it would be too sudden of a change from the main game. However, while Syndicate was very lighthearted and humourous, I hope the DLC goes for a more traditional dark tone like AC1.

I'm wondering though, does anyone have an idea on what the map will be like? Will there be a separate map consisting of only Whitechapel, a bit like Saint Denis, OR do you 'travel in time' through the menus or something, to London a few years later, where we'd have snow and the character models would be older? I'd kinda prefer the 2nd option, though it may seem pointless for them to update all of London.

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2015, 05:53 PM
How can you be sure that isn't just a ghost who everyone thought was a real person? Like George Wood

siralex1986
12-02-2015, 06:02 PM
This. It cannot be Jacob.

Also gotta agree with Vestigial here, that if Jacob was indeed Jack, it would be too sudden of a change from the main game. However, while Syndicate was very lighthearted and humourous, I hope the DLC goes for a more traditional dark tone like AC1.

I'm wondering though, does anyone have an idea on what the map will be like? Will there be a separate map consisting of only Whitechapel, a bit like Saint Denis, OR do you 'travel in time' through the menus or something, to London a few years later, where we'd have snow and the character models would be older? I'd kinda prefer the 2nd option, though it may seem pointless for them to update all of London.

Though, Evie's hunt could end in "saving" Jacob from the path he's fallen into, "killing" Jack and "bringing back to life" the brother.

I know, heavy speculation here, but still it would be a good way to hide a spoiler into an achievement.

VestigialLlama4
12-02-2015, 06:17 PM
There's this little TV show called Game of Thrones where insane characterization decisions like that happen all the time... perhaps you guys have heard of it? :rolleyes:

That takes place in a much more brutal, violent and anti-heroic environment than the AC-verse. In the AC-verse, you have Assassins with super-parkour and blend abilities and they are fighting one set of enemies, whereas the story you are bringing up, from my understanding, is about ordinary people without special abilities (at least most of the time, not including the dragon lady of course). One character is a dwarf, others are crippled and one is fat. It's not the same dramaturgical principles as AC which is closer to superhero and adventure stories. There's different conditions.


For instance, I assume you may be familiar with the concept of "plot armor", or the idea that certain characters simply cannot die (or otherwise be disposed of) because they're too essential to the plot. Now, this may seem necessary in some cases, but whenever storytellers break it (such as when the American protagonist in Call of Duty 4 dies halfway through the game) they are widely applauded.

Again that has to happen in the main game otherwise people will think that the game is irritating them.


I think this is applicable here as well. Your arguments are basically "this is not what I expect to happen, so it cannot be so". Well, if that's so, then I'll have to assume that you're a writer for Ubisoft- otherwise, that has no merit whatsoever!

Structure, plot and tone is not neglible things. Doing something for the sake of doing it leads to crap like ROGUE. You can be unpredictable and do the unexpected yes, but doing that by cheating the audience is not to be applauded. In Syndicate, they gave us a portrayal of Jacob as this troubled but basically sympathetic and charming guy. There's nothing that points to him murdering prostitutes. A drastic change like what you are proposing has to gel with what comes before. How is a gamer supposed to return to Syndicate and interpret Jacob and his actions -- palling around with Frederick Abberline, being a bro to Evie and the like?

BananaBlighter
12-02-2015, 06:17 PM
Though, Evie's hunt could end in "saving" Jacob from the path he's fallen into, "killing" Jack and "bringing back to life" the brother.

I know, heavy speculation here, but still it would be a good way to hide a spoiler into an achievement.

Hmmm, I never thought about it like that!

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 06:42 PM
There's this little TV show called Game of Thrones where insane characterization decisions like that happen all the time... perhaps you guys have heard of it? :rolleyes:

Wait, so to prove your point about sudden unforeshadowed, without any kind of set up, twists and characterization decisions you use a show where there's absolutely not a single decision like that which happens without something leading up to it? :rolleyes: (i.e., in case I've constructed the sentence confusingly, there's always something leading up to a big character change or action that's out of originally established character).


Now, this may seem necessary in some cases, but whenever storytellers break it (such as when the American protagonist in Call of Duty 4 dies halfway through the game) they are widely applauded.

Yes, except Call of Duty did it deliberately as part of its narrative arc, setting up a heroic bombastic American campaign where you successfully are Big Damn Heroes (BUT, alongside a more dark UK-campaign, and also regular quotes about horrors of war on each loading screen, which is important) and building certain expectations to pull the rug off under your feet, and say, 'yeah, we kinda were telling you war is ****'.


Your arguments are basically "this is not what I expect to happen, so it cannot be so".

No. The argument is that a good twist (or sudden change of character) is something that makes you look back at everything you've seen and look at it from a new perspective and realize how it all makes sense.

And once again, I think that turning the cocky, cheerful likeable ******* with a heart of gold that is Jacob into a serial killer would've been brilliant. Except, you can't do that in the DLC not because it never couldn't have happened, but because it will make you look back at everything you know from the narrative to see how it all makes sense. And with the way ACS is now, it wouldn't. Not without a proper justification told in the DLC itself, which honestly is a dangerous thing to do as well, the retroactive backstory setup is something that can backfire easily.

Again, it's like having a game where Connor is a brutal kitten-killer obsessed with murdering all of them. It will not make people go, 'omfg it's so great and unexpected', it will make people go, 'but.... why?'

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2015, 06:51 PM
why would anyone ever want to murder cats

they're so furry and cute!

but farlander, like I said, sometimes it's up to Tumblr and the rest of the community to fill in the stuff the developers don't tell for themselves. OOC developments don't matter and make much more sense when you just throw that dart into its place by yourself! It's almost like making your own story, like make your own pizza day at the cafeteria, that way everyone is satisfied!

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 07:01 PM
why would anyone ever want to murder cats

they're so furry and cute!

but farlander, like I said, sometimes it's up to Tumblr and the rest of the community to fill in the stuff the developers don't tell for themselves. OOC developments don't matter and make much more sense when you just throw that dart into its place by yourself! It's almost like making your own story, like make your own pizza day at the cafeteria, that way everyone is satisfied!

Never change, Pie. Never change.

I-Like-Pie45
12-02-2015, 07:08 PM
Never change, Pie. Never change.

I am no pie, I am a bear

And keep in mind, while it doesn't seem likely that Jacob could be a monstrous killer - remember what the evil Klaus Kinski said: a man can fake his virtues, but not his depravities. What's to say that Jack the Ripper existed in Jacob as inner darkness, and one day, he grew tired of keeping that capped? I say the more virtuous and kindly someone presents themselves, the more suspect they're likely to be.

And that's another thought: What if Evie is the actual Ripper?

Or what if, there was no actual ripper and it just happened to be a frat prank gone horribly wrong?

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 08:05 PM
That takes place in a much more brutal, violent and anti-heroic environment than the AC-verse. In the AC-verse, you have Assassins with super-parkour and blend abilities and they are fighting one set of enemies, whereas the story you are bringing up, from my understanding, is about ordinary people without special abilities (at least most of the time, not including the dragon lady of course). One character is a dwarf, others are crippled and one is fat. It's not the same dramaturgical principles as AC which is closer to superhero and adventure stories. There's different conditions.


Well, perhaps the TV show is a little bit sanitized for the common palate, but in the books there is actually a lot more magic. But, to humor you, let's assume that Assassins Creed really is more in the vein of superhero stories. If you read comics, you'd know that it's not at all uncommon for a once likable and even lighthearted character to become very dark, even a murderer.


Again that has to happen in the main game otherwise people will think that the game is irritating them.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this... merely that there is a tonal shift between the game and the DLC? I mean, we already saw that last year with Dead Kings, so there's certainly precedent. I understand that this particular hypothetical would be much more jarring, and I agree- all I'm arguing is that it's foolish to completely dismiss it as a possibility.



Structure, plot and tone is not neglible things. Doing something for the sake of doing it leads to crap like ROGUE. You can be unpredictable and do the unexpected yes, but doing that by cheating the audience is not to be applauded. In Syndicate, they gave us a portrayal of Jacob as this troubled but basically sympathetic and charming guy. There's nothing that points to him murdering prostitutes. A drastic change like what you are proposing has to gel with what comes before. How is a gamer supposed to return to Syndicate and interpret Jacob and his actions -- palling around with Frederick Abberline, being a bro to Evie and the like?[
No, but you can experiment with structure and other elements. Stories are best when they are difficult to predict. I know you have your own vision and expectations for the Jack DLC, but you have to be open to other things. You surprise me, friend. On the forums here, you're typically one of the most open-minded people here (barring myself, of course :p) but on this issue (and the morality of the Templars... but that's another story) you seem content to be resolute in your own preconceived notions.



Wait, so to prove your point about sudden unforeshadowed, without any kind of set up, twists and characterization decisions you use a show where there's absolutely not a single decision like that which happens without something leading up to it? :rolleyes: (i.e., in case I've constructed the sentence confusingly, there's always something leading up to a big character change or action that's out of originally established character).


There also hasn't been a 20 year gap in Game of Thrones... unless you count the gap between the alluded events of Robert's Rebellion and the very first episode... in which Robert goes from a young brash war hero to a fat and pathetic king. Oh look, something that illustrated my point perfectly, and only from the very first episode! :p



And once again, I think that turning the cocky, cheerful likeable ******* with a heart of gold that is Jacob into a serial killer would've been brilliant. Except, you can't do that in the DLC not because it never couldn't have happened, but because it will make you look back at everything you know from the narrative to see how it all makes sense. And with the way ACS is now, it wouldn't. Not without a proper justification told in the DLC itself, which honestly is a dangerous thing to do as well, the retroactive backstory setup is something that can backfire easily.
See, this is the kind of arrogance that I cannot take seriously. You don't know how they'd explain Jacob's actions if he was Jack (again, I still doubt the possibility anyway). You haven't even allowed for the writers to come up with something! You're criticizing something that doesn't even exist.



Again, it's like having a game where Connor is a brutal kitten-killer obsessed with murdering all of them. It will not make people go, 'omfg it's so great and unexpected', it will make people go, 'but.... why?'
For the record, I'd totally be down with playing that.
But seriously, even in your silly scenario, in the right writer's hands someone could salvage at least some of that plot to make sense. Just because you personally cannot fathom it means nothing. That's why you don't get paid to write games.

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 08:46 PM
There also hasn't been a 20 year gap in Game of Thrones... unless you count the gap between the alluded events of Robert's Rebellion and the very first episode... in which Robert goes from a young brash war hero to a fat and pathetic king. Oh look, something that illustrated my point perfectly, and only from the very first episode! :p

It's not the same. The pathetic king is the character established, that's point 0 for us. It would've been the same if we followed for a season a young brash war hero to victory and then the next season we suddenly see him 20 years later as pathetic, and even then, because Game of Thrones is a TV show which has at least 10 hours to tell the arcs it wants it can smoothen the transition. The most important question is 'why' and how you answer it.

I guess I should've also mentioned that I wasn't talking about just the context of 'story' in general, but in the context of how the story is going to be presented. We're talking here about a 10 mission DLC which will be like 2-3 hours (and it's an open-world game and not a movie or a linear story-based game, so 2-3 hours is not much). It's a lot harder to do so there, especially such a big shift. A Brotherhood-like game, for example? Yeah, sure, I don't see why not.

You can call it arrogance, but when you have a game where players can spend from 15 up to 50 hours with a character who's painted a certain way, radically switching that character needs to be done with justice, one or two lines of dialogue isn't enough, even like a whole mission or two may not be enough, because the person experiencing the story needs to say, 'I can totally get why this happened'. AC3 actually has a similar issue, with a big year gap where several characters, inclduing Haytham, are really different, and there's like a whole novel explaining why Haytham is different, but in the game proper that change is a lot more jarring, even with the hints that AC3 gives about it (both in the prologue and Connor eras). Which for me, unlike many other people, was enough, because that's still not a radical shift. Unlike the ACS Jacob to Jack the Ripper one which is a lot, a lot bigger, and his arc in the game does everything to weave Jacob away from the possibility of becoming the Reaper. Hints aren't enough here to answer 'why'.

Also, you've mentioned Dead Kings and its tonal shift, it's also a very different situation: there the why is not even needed to explain, everything we need to know why Arno (and by extension, the mood of the story) is a lot darker has been told by the main game itself.

And don't go into 'just because you can't fathom something', please, you're better than that and we both know it. The last few posts you've done quite a lot of putting words in my mouth and stating presumptions that had nothing to do with what I am saying, so I'm going to stop right here, as if I can't state my thoughts in a manner that are clear or if you are just bent on taking them a certain way, then this is not worth a fight or an argument.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 09:14 PM
It's not the same. The pathetic king is the character established, that's point 0 for us. It would've been the same if we followed for a season a young brash war hero to victory and then the next season we suddenly see him 20 years later as pathetic, and even then, because Game of Thrones is a TV show which has at least 10 hours to tell the arcs it wants it can smoothen the transition. The most important question is 'why' and how you answer it.

I mean, I suppose that true, but you're kind of splitting hairs at this point. I feel like unless I describe a scenario in which a series about order based with the task of stopping another order from achieving dominance over mankind across all history, in which one chapter set in Victorian London features a protagonist that eventually goes mad and becomes Jack the Ripper- basically a copy/pasted version of this year's DLC- you'll continue complaining that "That's not the same". I know it's not the same, friend, I get that there are some differences. That's why it's an anthology, and not just a repetition.



I guess I should've also mentioned that I wasn't talking about just the context of 'story' in general, but in the context of how the story is going to be presented. We're talking here about a 10 mission DLC which will be like 2-3 hours (and it's an open-world game and not a movie or a linear story-based game, so 2-3 hours is not much). It's a lot harder to do so there, especially such a big shift. A Brotherhood-like game, for example? Yeah, sure, I don't see why not.



Also, you've mentioned Dead Kings and its tonal shift, it's also a very different situation: there the why is not even needed to explain, everything we need to know why Arno (and by extension, the mood of the story) is a lot darker has been told by the main game itself.
Both true, and they're probably your strongest points so far, in my opinion.



You can call it arrogance, but when you have a game where players can spend from 15 up to 50 hours with a character who's painted a certain way, radically switching that character needs to be done with justice, one or two lines of dialogue isn't enough, even like a whole mission or two may not be enough, because the person experiencing the story needs to say, 'I can totally get why this happened'. AC3 actually has a similar issue, with a big year gap where several characters, inclduing Haytham, are really different, and there's like a whole novel explaining why Haytham is different, but in the game proper that change is a lot more jarring, even with the hints that AC3 gives about it (both in the prologue and Connor eras). Which for me, unlike many other people, was enough, because that's still not a radical shift. Unlike the ACS Jacob to Jack the Ripper one which is a lot, a lot bigger, and his arc in the game does everything to weave Jacob away from the possibility of becoming the Reaper. Hints aren't enough here to answer 'why'.
I call it arrogance only because you don't even know the details of this hypothetical story that you're criticizing. Going along with the Game of Thrones analogy thing again, imagine if several years ago George RR Martin had casually mentioned that by the third book most of the "main characters" of the first book would be dead, and that in the first book he'd have a fourteen year old girl get pregnant only to have the child die be miscarried. Without the details, people would've likely thought he was making terrible decisions as well.



And don't go into 'just because you can't fathom something', please, you're better than that and we both know it. The last few posts you've done quite a lot of putting words in my mouth and stating presumptions that had nothing to do with what I am saying, so I'm going to stop right here, as if I can't state my thoughts in a manner that are clear or if you are just bent on taking them a certain way, then this is not worth a fight or an argument.

I am sorry if I've offended you in any way- I have gotten a little frustrated with how completely shut off to this some people have been.
What I meant by that particular statement, though is not by any means that you're stupid. Merely that you, like I and almost everyone else here, have not been involved with the creative process of this team. As far as we know, the team could have reverse engineered a concept in which Jacob does go insane for the DLC (to take the dual protagonist route to an interesting angle) and it wasn't until later that someone realized that they could shoehorn him into Jack. My point is that we don't know. That's all. Go in peace, friend.

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 10:10 PM
I call it arrogance only because you don't even know the details of this hypothetical story that you're criticizing.

Can I just point out that when we had an argument about Ubisoft game-making decisions and priorities and how I implored to not go into assumptions about why any particular decision was made and what they're trying or not trying to do, because we don't know all the information and what the situation was, while you pretty fiercely stood your ground in having your opinion and criticizing those presumed decisions anyway, I did not call you arrogant? :p

And you're right, I'm not a writer, and I'm not a literary major. I am, however, a Game Designer who, among other things, heavily studied narrative structure, analyzed existing narrative, people's opinion on it and emotions regarding different decisions, how gameplay and narrative can interconnect, how to elicit certain emotions, and have experience in creating narrative structures and planning things out and knowing what it takes to do so in different genres, and talk extensively to other developers about these kind of things and read tons of different material.

And this may sound like I'm boasting, but I want to point out, that when I say that I don't believe a Jack = Jacob story can work in the current context of things (while multiple times pointing out that I think it can be brilliant, btw), I don't say I can't be proven wrong (that can be foolish), I'm not criticizing the dev team and the writers (something that you've openly stated), nor do I criticize the story (once again, I think it can be brilliant), nor do I say that they're talentless and can't come up with good ideas (something that I took as heavily implied by some of your statements), or that I'm not willing to give a chance. What I'm saying is that at this moment in time, with the current experience that I have, I don't believe (and I hope I don't have to point out that anything anybody says is their personal opinion) you can tell that kind of story and that kind of twist in a quality way in a DLC with the context that we have.

That's it. A lot of stuff that you're defending against, is all your assumptions and presumptions which I honestly don't know how they appeared which is why I didn't want to continue the conversation, not because I was offended (I wasn't, for the record) but because something the way I said my arguments must have led to those conclusions and I have no idea what it is, and trying to clarify things didn't make it any better. And, honestly, at this point I don't know if this will clear things up or will make the confusion larger.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 10:32 PM
Can I just point out that when we had an argument about Ubisoft game-making decisions and priorities and how I implored to not go into assumptions about why any particular decision was made and what they're trying or not trying to do, because we don't know all the information and what the situation was, while you pretty fiercely stood your ground in having your opinion and criticizing those presumed decisions anyway, I did not call you arrogant? :p


Yes, if that's what you think then perhaps we'd best end this conversation then. I don't think I've "fiercely stood my ground", because literally the only claim I've made is that we don't know enough about their process to make any other claims on it.

And for the record, I consider this a discussion, not an argument. But I guess that's all about perspective.

Farlander1991
12-02-2015, 10:37 PM
Yes, if that's what you think then perhaps we'd best end this conversation then. I don't think I've "fiercely stood my ground", because literally the only claim I've made is that we don't know enough about their process to make any other claims on it.

And for the record, I consider this a discussion, not an argument. But I guess that's all about perspective.

Uhhhh, I hoped the ':p' showed that the statement was sarcastic, somewhat over-exaggerated and wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. I just got reminded a bit of that convo and that's all. My apologies.

cawatrooper9
12-02-2015, 10:55 PM
Uhhhh, I hoped the ':p' showed that the statement was sarcastic, somewhat over-exaggerated and wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. I just got reminded a bit of that convo and that's all. My apologies.

No worries, I'm terrible at reading internet sarcasm. I'm pretty bad at reading it in real life as well. I'm basically a robot.

RVSage
12-03-2015, 06:57 PM
Okay, looks like Jack has been identified. People have dug it out in redditt.

pacmanate
12-03-2015, 07:11 PM
Okay, looks like Jack has been identified. People have dug it out in redditt.

Jack isn't identified... All the videos show are some cutscenes, concept and the new skillset.

ze_topazio
12-03-2015, 07:25 PM
Okay, looks like Jack has been identified. People have dug it out in redditt.


I don't think this counts as spoilers but just in case.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/dpwoxe.jpg

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/766/IwM78gl.png

cawatrooper9
12-03-2015, 07:37 PM
Okay, looks like Jack has been identified. People have dug it out in redditt.

Wanna post it under a spoiler tag?

Frank9182011
12-03-2015, 08:51 PM
I don't think this counts as spoilers but just in case.

http://oi68.tinypic.com/dpwoxe.jpg

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/016/766/IwM78gl.png

Whoa, wait a second...

Does this confirm a Syndicate sequel? Where is this from?

pacmanate
12-03-2015, 09:01 PM
Whoa, wait a second...

Does this confirm a Syndicate sequel? Where is this from?

From the Syndicate game files.

AC Victory must have been the working title. However it shows that the Ripper DLC was planned a while ago.

D.I.D.
12-03-2015, 09:02 PM
AHA! I was saying this recently - it makes no sense how different Victory's screenshots were from the game we got (can't find my post now, but it's here somewhere).

Yes, I know target videos change, but AC3's is a lot more like the final product than Syndicate was like Victory. The character wasn't fully formed yet, but the clothing design was. The animations for combat, yomping through deep snow, rock-climbing and aerial traversal were exactly as they turned out. Typefaces and HUD design were already settled, as were the ideas about random encounters with redcoat troupes, the eagle images, etc.

But Victory? It was so far away from Syndicate. The time period was different, with electrical light, the fashions, the advertising all pointing towards a late Victorian period, as did the information of the railway posters. The character was nothing like Jacob, and there was no evidence of a two-protag game. The rope gadget was a swing, like Rise of the Tomb Raider, rather than a tension rope. The woman offering disguises wasn't in Syndicate...

All of which has been making me think since I played it that Victory is a game yet to come, and Syndicate's target video remains unseen.

Farlander1991
12-03-2015, 09:13 PM
AC Victory must have been the working title. However it shows that the Ripper DLC was planned a while ago.

It's an old version of the logo they would have used in the dev version, doesn't have anything to do with Ripper DLC and certainly doesn't show anything. The guy just posted it as part of the files he found.

BananaBlighter
12-03-2015, 09:27 PM
It's an old version of the logo they would have used in the dev version, doesn't have anything to do with Ripper DLC and certainly doesn't show anything. The guy just posted it as part of the files he found.

Yeah, even on the PS4 where it shows recent actions, it refers to Syndicate as Victory, "Ori-Troller earned 'insert achievement' in AC Victory,".