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View Full Version : The Role of a Wingman in FB?



DONB3397
02-22-2004, 11:06 PM
When the LW introduced the Rotte in 1939, a two-plane element with a leader and wingman, they changed air combat. The concept was simple enough: the leader is shooter, the wingman his cover. They work together to survive and win.

This idea was successful for both the Axis and the Allies.

In FB offline, my wingman talks big ("Be right there"), but generally I need to watch my six or pay the price.

But my question is about online combat. How many of you fly with a wingman? And how do you feel about the value of teamwork in two-plane elements or rottes?

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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DONB3397
02-22-2004, 11:06 PM
When the LW introduced the Rotte in 1939, a two-plane element with a leader and wingman, they changed air combat. The concept was simple enough: the leader is shooter, the wingman his cover. They work together to survive and win.

This idea was successful for both the Axis and the Allies.

In FB offline, my wingman talks big ("Be right there"), but generally I need to watch my six or pay the price.

But my question is about online combat. How many of you fly with a wingman? And how do you feel about the value of teamwork in two-plane elements or rottes?

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
http://us.f2.yahoofs.com/bc/3fe77b7e_1812a/bc/Images/Sig---1.jpg?BCbi4NAB.0s9LZQo

Lt.Davis
02-22-2004, 11:21 PM
It's depending on the skill level of the AI wingman i think.

4 example last nite, me and my friend flying Lan coop mission, we both have wingman to cover us. When we saw the enemy plane far away, my friend which is the squard leader (no.1 plane) decide to spit out, he and his wingman go right and me and my wingman go left to circle them (enemy in middle).

After i bank left and press the key [Tab][1 wingman][1 cover me] the answer was "Roger, i cover you..." And of cause i think he's covering my 6. By the time we circle the enemy(i still think that my wingman are on my 6 covering me) than i check for my friend position, Damn!!! my wingman (no4, i'm no3) are following my friend, that's make him got two wingman to cover him. I quickly press [Tab][1 wingman][cover me].He still answer ok but following my frind.

I have to order him to rejoin me than only he fly to my direction. My wingman skill setting was 'average'.

But in the other coop mission, i set both enemy and friendly AI 'Veteren' my wingman did follow me where ever i go and did save me lots of time.

I really strongly believe it's the skill level setting for the AI to make them smarter.

Speed is the KEY.

Hunde_3.JG51
02-22-2004, 11:21 PM
I fly with my squad leader as his wingman all the time, and to be honest it is 10x more enjoyable when I do.

As for the value, it is immeasurable. Having a wingman will often mean the difference between life and death online.

In fact, that is still one of my biggest complaints about online play is that people just take off and all go their own seperate ways even when taking off on the runway together. Rarely do people form up properly and sometimes when I try to stick with someone they will seemingly try to maneuver or hide or whatever to try to go it alone (so I let them go). A few moments later they are hitting the "refly" button anyway. I'll never understand all of the lone-wolfs online, using wingmen increases your chance of being successful significantly.

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Lt.Davis
02-22-2004, 11:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunde_3.JG51:
I fly with my squad leader as his wingman all the time, and to be honest it is 10x more enjoyable when I do.

As for the value, it is immeasurable. Having a wingman will often mean the difference between life and death online.

In fact, that is still one of my biggest complaints about online play is that people just take off and all go their own seperate ways even when taking off on the runway together. Rarely do people form up properly and sometimes when I try to stick with someone they will seemingly try to maneuver or hide or whatever to try to go it alone (so I let them go). A few moments later they are hitting the "refly" button anyway. I'll never understand all of the lone-wolfs online, using wingmen increases your chance of being successful significantly.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

Formerly Kyrule2
http://www.jg51.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO, most of the people playing online games are looking for quick fight.

I like flying formation with player or AI. It's the patient you need to put in and 'thinking of same thing with you partner' So i play a lot of lan coop mission with my friend.

Actually i'm looking for more people to join us, any people interested playing lan game and who stay in "Singapore" can contact me @ dave_choo@yahoo.com.

Speed is the KEY.

JG14_Josf
02-23-2004, 01:05 AM
Michapma's Track Files Link (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/tracks.htm)

There is a big difference between two planes in the general vicinity and two planes cooperating as an effective team.

On the above web page link there are two track files on teamwork, one titled the Half Split and the other titled Teamwork. These training track files illustrate the value of teamwork.

I've sent another Track file to Mike for his approval called the Setup.

If there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to the value of a cooperating teammate in simulated air combat they may want to consider the advantage of both having someone to occupy the enemies attention while you can line up a good shot on that enemy and the value of someone who can line up a good shot on an enemy paying a little too much attention to you.

DONB3397
02-23-2004, 09:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG14_Josf:
If there is any doubt in anyone's mind as to the value of a cooperating teammate in simulated air combat they may want to consider the advantage of both having someone to occupy the enemies attention while you can line up a good shot on that enemy...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interesting -- a diversion. Somehow, I've thought of a wingman in terms of defense, that is protecting the leader/shooter's back. But you're right. It's been a while since I read it, but I believe the Thatch Weave involved this offensive objective. Maybe someone can refresh this info.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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GvSAP_Dart
02-23-2004, 09:37 AM
Online it's indespensable to have a wingman.

While some seem to think DF servers are Air Quake shoot 'em ups, my experience is that if the map is set up to support it, it usually works out to where it's wingman/lead pairs.

Our squadron works the wingman/lead roles rather differently than most. It's a function of who's in the best position or at the greatest threat that determines who's doing what!

Often we change from number one to number two several times in a fight - one popping high to protect, only to dive in to the fight while the other extends away to come high and check six.

The drag-and-bag is awesome when it comes off. The number one leads the enemy, who is on his tail but out of firing position, in the kill path of the number two.

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Lt.Davis
02-23-2004, 10:05 AM
[QUOTE]
It's a function of who's in the best position or at the greatest threat that determines who's doing what!


Unless both of the pilot are knowing each other's mind thinking. Cause in normal situation the one who following at enemy will always think that "i can do it! just a little bit more turn... etc" Where as the other already in firing position. A good comm tool needed instead of typing.

Often we change from number one to number two several times in a fight - one popping high to protect, only to dive in to the fight while the other extends away to come high and check six

Mostly we're using this tactics against 4x ACE Zero (AI). We flying 2x P-40M, climb about 3000m and when we saw the 4x anamy both of us split to two direction, 1 go left 1 go right and observe which plean they target.

If 4 of them chasing me, i'll still climb and my partner will dive to one of them and make a quick burst and climb, that's the time i dive to the nearest enemy plane.

We repeat this again and again until we down the very last zero.

PS: This tactics work only for small group of engagement. Where as if against a bigger group i don't think it work. (Now a days the AI are quiet smart)

Salute!

Thanks for sharing .

Speed is the KEY.

SeaFireLIV
02-23-2004, 10:05 AM
Online a wingman is indispensible. In fact when I go online now and find myself in a dogfight, I feel extremely vulnerable knowing there`s noone watching my back. Also, Squad teammates are more reliable than someone you just met, which makes sense I guess.

A wingman can be used as bait or defence, but if he`s bait you mustn`t let him down.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also LT Davis is right. I`ve flown offline with AI wingmen many times and the unskilled noob is useless: he`ll sit there while you`re being torn to pieces.

But wait till he has a few missions under his belt(if he survives) and some skill and he becomes the Saviour of the day, picking off anyone who he even looks at your six the wrong way - you really miss him if he gets killed.

SeaFireLIV...

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The Fights continue out of the Servers...

BM357_Raven
02-23-2004, 10:49 AM
Depends on the experience and SA of the wingmen. Some people, I am sorry to say, are just not good at it. They are the ones that become liabilities. They straggle off, or lose contact with you and suddenly you are forced to retrace your steps (that's more the case in full real than icons games). Wingman SA IS teachable, but that can be long, hard road...ugh.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Then there are guys that are just awesome wingmen. They don't have to be the number one pilot on the net to be the number one wingman on the net. A guy who has good SA, good visi., and formup abilities will improve any pilot he supports.

Imo, these are the best pilots on the net. The ones who can support and help other players in all aspects...

Flying wingman position is much harder than being the lead plane (being a product of the 8AF we call the two man grouping an element).

Members tend to yield to me as lead plane which is fine, but in all honesty, I like being in the #2 position. It's more fun to form up and cover.

Some of my favorite wingmen have been Tinman, Sniper, IMS_Combat, Disciple (is one of the best imo), and several other guys on my squad are just exceptional wingmen..

Good communication between both pilots is important I believe, as well as 'knowing' collectively what has to be done. The more in tuned a two-man team is with one another, the more favorable the flow is for each other.

Then of course there is the abilty for both players to piggy back kills by using bait tactics against their opponents. When it really clicks between two players the results are spectacular...

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GvSAP_Dart
02-23-2004, 10:52 AM
Lt. Davis, that's the advantage of flying with a smaller squadron - we've been together long enough to know what the other's probably going to do, and of course there's TeamSpeak.

"Whoa, back off a bit, we're getting close."
"You got him? I'm getting off track!"
"Call it when you have a shot!"

The part I didn't mention is that in a DF server we don't give a hat about kills or scores - it's about returning home alive together - particularly if escorting IL-2's. When you take that attitude the whole sim takes a different light, and the "just a bit more and I've got him" stuff gets muted slightly.

A DF server is no more than a coop you can join at any time with free-flow target selections.

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mike_espo
02-23-2004, 10:56 AM
Online is totally unrealistic. Even when I play virtual Eastern front. I fly with someone and they ultimately do their own thing and I get killed. Lone wolf tactics died with Ball in WW1.