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View Full Version : hurri whiners a moment of your time.



XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:31 AM
Morning all,im sure this thread will decend into the fiery pits but my intention is not to inflame.

i have seen many threads about the "mad fm"of the hurri and i would just like to add my observations as i feel i have become very familiar with the MK1 NOT THE MERLIN XX MK2

so anyway i fly the mk1 almost exculsively and in coops and dogfights i have noticed the following things using the emil mostly as a benchmark

1. its slower than an emil
2.it cant catch an emil in a dive
3.it cant outclimb an emil
4.its very easy to damage critical controls in a hurri
5.the engine does ever rev for ever if it gets hit
6.you can unload your entire ammo into an emil and not shoot it down if your not accurate
7.you can kill an emil in a few bursts if you choose your shots
8.it does outturn an emil but only just if the emil is flown well
9.any well flown l/w ac can Bnz all day on a hurri and there is nothing we can do about it unless team play is involved
10.it does stall and overheat if flown to the edge
11.it recovers well from a stall due to thick wings/excellent stability
12.it does bleed E in turns until your only turning at about 100knts

i could go on,but these observations seem to bear witness to the history books (apart from the mad engine revving)

so why is the hurri so over modelled?
remeber i have little experience of the mk2s so leave that out as i havent flown it enough,but if your whines are directed at the mk2 can we make it clear as i believe the mk1 is quite close to the books???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

Message Edited on 06/17/03 09:36AM by mothyp

Message Edited on 06/17/0309:37AM by mothyp

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:31 AM
Morning all,im sure this thread will decend into the fiery pits but my intention is not to inflame.

i have seen many threads about the "mad fm"of the hurri and i would just like to add my observations as i feel i have become very familiar with the MK1 NOT THE MERLIN XX MK2

so anyway i fly the mk1 almost exculsively and in coops and dogfights i have noticed the following things using the emil mostly as a benchmark

1. its slower than an emil
2.it cant catch an emil in a dive
3.it cant outclimb an emil
4.its very easy to damage critical controls in a hurri
5.the engine does ever rev for ever if it gets hit
6.you can unload your entire ammo into an emil and not shoot it down if your not accurate
7.you can kill an emil in a few bursts if you choose your shots
8.it does outturn an emil but only just if the emil is flown well
9.any well flown l/w ac can Bnz all day on a hurri and there is nothing we can do about it unless team play is involved
10.it does stall and overheat if flown to the edge
11.it recovers well from a stall due to thick wings/excellent stability
12.it does bleed E in turns until your only turning at about 100knts

i could go on,but these observations seem to bear witness to the history books (apart from the mad engine revving)

so why is the hurri so over modelled?
remeber i have little experience of the mk2s so leave that out as i havent flown it enough,but if your whines are directed at the mk2 can we make it clear as i believe the mk1 is quite close to the books???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

Message Edited on 06/17/03 09:36AM by mothyp

Message Edited on 06/17/0309:37AM by mothyp

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:39 AM
Agreed. I don't think the Hurricane is the œber-plane some claim it to be. Even though it recovers quickly, it has a pretty nasty stall in some high-G situations.

cheers/slush

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You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:46 AM
I have only one complaint: It should overheat quicker than it does. Erh... - no two: It recovers way too easy. Besides that I think it´s very well made. I love those 1940 Emil vs Hurri fights online. Really a blast if everyone is into teamplay.

S!

M0NS



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fluke39
06-17-2003, 10:46 AM
Morning!

I have mainly flown the Hurri Mk1 as the main campaign i have flown offline has been the finnish Hurri one. In my experience your observations seem to be almost 100% correct, although i have not taken the time to measure these exactly.


Its good to see that someone has taken the time to observe things in a calculated way, and taken the time to present them in a mature way too.


nice one



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:10 AM
I allready knew that Hurricane's where easy to pick at /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif because most ppl who fly them are not very good at piloting /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:21 AM
Plz compare historical Climbrates to 5k or higher to current hurri fm . Maybe you see a little Problem then and dont compare to Emil its climbrate at high alt is also a little off. Same for i16 , i153 and maybe some others. The result of lower air density and the effect on the winglift at higher alt seems not to be modeled correct. You can almost turn on a dime with i153 up there even with less air pressure. So planes with less engine Power get advantages they didnt have. Also the Service ceiling is a matter. There are more things on the hurri the guns for example do a lot of damage.
Supercharger Stages for Superhurri mode is another thing 120 % mix and stage 2 makes it perform wonders at low alt but shouldnt. The ShVAKs on the fieldmods should be a little more effective as the mg151 .


Mg151/20
Muzzle Velocity: 734 m/s
Rate Of Fire: 750 rnds/min
Round Types: Explosive/Incendiary, Armor Piercing, Armor Piercing/Electron Incendiary

ShVAK 20 mm
Muzzle Velocity: 800 m/s
Rate Of Fire: 800 rnds/min

But compared how the mg152/20 is modeled now it appears to be weak. So ppl get the impression hurri guns are overmodeled.

There are more things on the hurri flight model you can read in the il2 database that doesnt appear in the game it seems.

Most of this things gets adressed in the patch even a more stally hurri . As this is a sim it should be as close to reality as resources allow.


Regards, Hyperion

Hawgdog
06-17-2003, 11:25 AM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
-because most ppl who
- fly them are not very good at piloting

What?!? Man is that a far fetched reach. I'd consider myself at least above average pilot in FB,I love the Hurri C series. I fly against hurri pilots that are as good as I am. I find aces AND noobs in the hurri as often as the G-14, Dora, P-47,etc etc etc etc



- 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

refer to your sig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:40 AM
AHEM
if you please read my thread this is about the MK1 not the merlin XX hurris,
after all no one compares the emil to the gustav ,as i said i dont have enough flying time in the MK2 to give an objective viewpoint so please keep to the MK1 as my point is that the MK1 doesnt seem to removed from the history books


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:47 AM
And JAVA you are more than welcome to drop by our d/f server
to test your mettle against the tangmere pilots,you will find emils and fredreichs(sp?) vs mk1hurris
our settings are everything on except we have externals,padlock, and speed bar(also map path but only on coops)





++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:02 PM
I have encountered many Hurri's online in my 47 and I would say that even with all of their assets, unlike the Yak's, they actually have one con in a pretty impressive list of pros and that is a huge speed disadvantage. If you try and turn with them you will loose no doubt about that but if you just get your speed up and fly away until you are about 1.5 km from the Hurri, then you will have plenty of time to loop over and head back in for another shot.

I don't know all the real world technical data on the Hurricane so I have no idea if the FM is correct or not but in this sim I definitely don't think it's a superior fighter at all.

$.


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:12 PM
A person who got to play the patch at E3 noted that, at least, the turn rate had been fixed, and the plane would stall.

Because remember the sustained turn time of the Hurricane IIB is supposed to be 19-20 seconds. Right now it is in the ballpark of 12-13 seconds.

Of course this isn't limited to the Hurri. Most of the planes turn too quickly.

I haven't found anything overmodelled about the speed or climb though. Except for no-overheat, and the 5000 RPM engine.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 12:27 PM
I dont think the hurri is that bad but it does outclimb the emil and out dive it, show me a emil diving at 610 even with the proppitch at 40. And it seems to have no energy bleed.

I hope the hurri dont get changed to much theres planes that have fms that are just unrealistic like the il2s i153 i16 yak3 migs etc but all will be addressed hopefully seems the woodened framed planes have this strange floating ability even the tb3


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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:02 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
I allready knew that Hurricane's where easy to pick at because most ppl who fly them are not very good at piloting.

-----------------------------------------------------------

*Yawn*



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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 01:04 PM
LeadSpitter_ wrote:-

I dont think the hurri is that bad but it does
- outclimb the emil and out dive it, show me a emil
- diving at 610 even with the proppitch at 40. And it
- seems to have no energy bleed.

Are you referring to the Mk1 Hurricane v's the Emil?...If so its not like any Mk1 I've ever flown.

Incidentally, even the early Battle of France Mk1 Hurricanes gained a healthy repect from the Luftwaffe. Please read the following extract from Paul Richie's autobiographical account of his experiences with No.1 Squadron serving in France:

"It was agreed they (Luftwaffe) didn't like our Hurricanes, few as they were, for as a sequel to Cobber Kain's story of the Dornier crew who baling out immediately they saw him, Peter Boot, had sighted a formation of five Dorniers which split up and beaten it when he appeared alone."




S/Ldr. Ginger,
C.O. - No.601 Fighter Squadron, Auxiliary Air Force.

http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/images/small/airtoair14.jpg


The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmere-pilots-raf.co.uk/

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:12 PM
its odd i thought this post might pull the hurri whiners out of the woodwork,but no so maybe their beef is with the mk2 that i know little about?


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:22 PM
BoB servers (unfortunately rare) are fantastic. The Mk 1 Hurri and the Emil are perfect adversaries as currently modelled and I hope will continue being so post patch.


Lixma,

The Devil`s proudest Advocate.

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:34 PM
mothyp wrote:
- its odd i thought this post might pull the hurri
- whiners out of the woodwork,but no so maybe their
- beef is with the mk2 that i know little about?
-
-
-
- ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
- G-BPDU
<img
- src="http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s
- .jpg">
-
- I fly this!!
-
- <a href="http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk"
- target=_blank>http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk<
- /a>
-
- No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy



No they have just moved on to the whine of the week. What is it this week anyone know? Bandwagon whiners are a pain in the arse.





Message Edited on 06/17/0305:02PM by rummyrum

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 04:41 PM
I really love to set QMbs flying a hurri vs. 1 or 2 Emils...they´re quite difficult to shoot down, as just after the head on pass (which I normally avoid), they immediately start climbing, making it impossible to catch with them...so I turn around, dive, and there they come, screaming from above, so I have to make a tight turn to avoid getting shot at...it´s only the turn advantage of the hurri that allows it to face the Emil, and it must be well flown to be successfull...
Of course, that´s for the Mk I...the Mk IIc is another story, and at least, the fast firing rate of the cannons makes it deadly if close enough to place a short burst...

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:54 AM
Hawgdog wrote:
-
- Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
--because most ppl who
-- fly them are not very good at piloting
-
- What?!? Man is that a far fetched reach. I'd
- consider myself at least above average pilot in FB,I
- love the Hurri C series. I fly against hurri pilots
- that are as good as I am. I find aces AND noobs in
- the hurri as often as the G-14, Dora, P-47,etc etc
- etc etc
-
-
-
-- 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
-
- refer to your sig /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif you are right.

Altough, you must admit that the Hurricane is rather very easy to fly and fight with. This makes it a good beginners plane.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

http://members.chello.se/ven/ham-pin.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:45 AM
Lixma wrote:
- BoB servers (unfortunately rare) are fantastic. The
- Mk 1 Hurri and the Emil are perfect adversaries as
- currently modelled and I hope will continue being so
- post patch.


Oh man! When are you online? I´ve hosted such games but nobody joins lol /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

S!

M0NS



"Blow up the outside world"

http://www.flugwerk.de/images/01k.jpg
My garage!

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:16 PM
Ian Boys runs a good BoB type server over on HL /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The Hurri has some major issues as mentioned above. Overheat is a joke, over-rev is a joke ans stall/spin recovery a little too simple.

When comparing aircraft types it important to distinguish a few facts. Many of you will argue that the Hurri climbs fairly well, but it can't quite keep up with the Emil....

Well think about that for a second, it shouldn't be able to climb with the Emil, the combined high AOA and energy bleed problems let it perform moves outside its flight envelope. This should be addressed in the patch /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

The Emil is waaaaaaaaay overmodelled (and I'm a Luftwhiner!) WRT climb rates. At the moment the Emil can climb almost as well as the K-4 with a good 22-24 m/s climb rate. If the Hurri can almost keep up with this (overmodelled) climbrate then the Hurri is obviously totally overmodelled.



JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:22 PM
M0NS wrote:
-
- Lixma wrote:
-- BoB servers (unfortunately rare) are fantastic. The
-- Mk 1 Hurri and the Emil are perfect adversaries as
-- currently modelled and I hope will continue being so
-- post patch.
-
-
- Oh man! When are you online? I´ve hosted such games
- but nobody joins lol
-

M0NS. I've seen your server on Hyperlobby but the problem is the "ping bar" is all in the red. All I get is a timeout.





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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:59 PM
MONS....when do you normally get them going ? I'm in UK so it's usually evening and stretching into early hours when I crash ham-fisted into HL. You're right about them not filling up though. It's a shame but probably has something to do with the neccesarily limited plane set. Should get better once the Bf-110 and maybe a Spit comes along.

Will look harder for your server !


Lixma,

The Devil`s proudest Advocate.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:06 PM
our tangmere servers which are nearly always Bob style are always pretty full,we limit to 16 and always have double figures flying,but we only have a short d/f usually between 20:00 and 21:00 then go off to coops on a tuesday or a friday although as our squadrons are expanding more of our servers are popping up at different times.
look for No601_Mothyp or anyone hosting with a No_601 or No_1 prefix

the only exception is if i tun my late stuff with jets.

we also tested our new scripted df server last night


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
G-BPDU
http://www.southernflightcentre.com/warrior-s.jpg

I fly this!!

http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk
No601-Squadron Auxiliary Air Force/tea boy

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 03:24 PM
Hallo Green Line Bus

The Hurricane could outclimb the Spitfire apparently, I was reading 'Reach for the Sky' (the biography of Douglas Bader) and he led wings containing squadrons of Hurri's and Spits, and the Hurricane could climb faster.

Philips CDRW

Posting vacuous messages since 2002