PDA

View Full Version : DM for the La7, Yak and Lagg.



Maple_Tiger
02-01-2004, 09:06 PM
Historicaly from what i have read is that the P-47 and FW where one of the tuffest planes in WW2.

But in FB we have some russion planes taking 3 times more damage then the FW or P-47. I have noticed this since 1.21.

Where the russion planes in real life tuffer then the FW or P-47?

Maple_Tiger
02-01-2004, 09:06 PM
Historicaly from what i have read is that the P-47 and FW where one of the tuffest planes in WW2.

But in FB we have some russion planes taking 3 times more damage then the FW or P-47. I have noticed this since 1.21.

Where the russion planes in real life tuffer then the FW or P-47?

FI-Aflak
02-01-2004, 09:09 PM
I'm a Jug jock, and lemme tell you, it soaks up the shells well enough to make me feel that it is believable, and when I get an La-7 in my sites, it falls apart well enough.

I think that the comparative damage models are fine. Can't speak for the Fw, but the Jug feels strong and sturdy, and when it starts shaking around my only fear is a control loss.

Maple_Tiger
02-01-2004, 09:23 PM
I agree, the P-47 is a tuff bird.

But like when i go into a Df server like Forgottenbattles server where ther are three armies.

In this server i usualy choose the Orange side(US side). I notice when i engage an La7, Yak and or Lagg that they take almost three times more damage then an FW.

VW-IceFire
02-01-2004, 09:27 PM
Three times as much? I doubt that...and I spend most of my time flying FW190's. Here's the problem and the solution.

The FW190 is supposed to be a tough plane. Reputed for being fairly well made and pretty tough (not quite as tough as the P-47 but probably in the same realm as the P-38 and other similarly armored aircraft). The problem in FB is that the FW190 does not have the same fidelity of damage modeling that the rest of the major fighters have now (I think almost all now have a advanced DM model). This means that while some hits will do almost nothing and prove ineffectual...other hits will be totally devastating (thus a short .50 cal burst will either take off a wing or do nothing at all). The solution is to upgrade the fidelity. I sure hope that's been done for the expansion pack! NOTE: This doesn't mean make the FW190 stronger...just more complicated in levels of damage.

The other major German player, the Bf 109, is generally known as being more fragile than most and being very vulnerable in terms of its engine. Similar to most inline engined aircraft but almost especially so (ie. the P-51 is also vulnerable in the engine but the airframe is a bit tougher - in FB terms anyways) ...afterall it was designed for speed and climb ability.

Now for the VVS aircraft. Kind of a mixed bunch and some strange oddities show up. The LaGG is noted for being fairly tough...it was made of Delta wood (??) and apparently that gave it some good strength. Anytime I've seen a Yak its been fairly fragile...they don't seem to come apart fully like other aircraft but only a few of the La-7's have I seen go on fighting nicely after taking hits...the Yak's become unflyable largely and while they aren't careening down into the ground after a few hits they certainly will not be capable fighters. Believe me when I say that the Yak's, when taking wing damage, have much higher drag (and thus wing drop) than German fighters similarly damaged.

And this doesn't really apply much to the AI which cheats http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And last night I sawed off some La-5FN wings in co-op as well as a two I-16's in a dogfight room with some very short snap bursts from 4 MG151/20's.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
The New IL2 Database is Coming Soon!

kyrule2
02-01-2004, 10:11 PM
Icefire I agree, especially about the FW-190 needing a complex DM.


"Believe me when I say that the Yak's, when taking wing damage, have much higher drag (and thus wing drop) than German fighters similarly damaged."

This I don't agree with. Even with the slightest damage the 190's wing dips very badly and you lose ALOT of speed (which is the 190's main advantage). The Yak may be similar but certainly not worse.

I disagree with the original poster, the P-47 is the toughest plane in FB right now.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

BBB_Hyperion
02-01-2004, 10:22 PM
I think its mainly the Mg151/20 and Mk108 guns effects on 2d DM Triggers. Sometimes you see the Bullets hit but no result . This can be a incorrect GFX representation or a not damaged Craft.

Same Problem on FW sometimes Il2 reargunner saws Wings of with a short aimed burst. Other Times it takes ages to inflict any damage. I am still convinced its a problem with the DM not the Guns .

Regards,
Hyperion

Zen--
02-02-2004, 12:10 AM
Possibly he's noticing that the LA's and Yak's seem to bounce 108 shells with impunity, something that happened in the old game on a regular basis, and something which I think still lurks on in FB, though not as prevalent as it used to be.

Remember the thread about every other MK108 round being a tracer and not doing any damage? I believe that may be the root of what he's seeing, but it's only a guess.

I'd say these days that things are much more up to par and damage is much more likely to be what you'd expect to see, though that chipped paint phenomenon on the 190 is still alive and well unfortunately.


Fly the game long enough and you'll see that almost anything is possible, though probably 7 times out of 10 the real problem is the observer not really knowing what exactly happened at that moment. I've seen some strange things over the years but most of them can eventually be explained or understood at some point and so I feel pretty comfortable with the overall DM in the game today.

There are still some oddities here and there and the FW still desperately needs a complex DM, but things simply are no where near as unbalanced as they used to be, especially considering the MK108 vs La's and Yaks.

None of them are as tough as the P47, thats observable and consistent if you fly long enough to actually see the patterns.

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Kwiatos
02-02-2004, 04:20 AM
How about Ju87? From 1.21 these bird are flying tank - if you dont broke his wing of course. Aming in pilot section or tail is wasting ammo.

PBNA-Boosher
02-02-2004, 06:29 AM
Maple-Tiger, you might want to check your convergence settings. Different settings work for different planes. For example: A P-47's wing mounted .50's will need to converge at a longer range to get the maximum effect, 250-300 meters is a good range for the P-47's convergence. However, in planes where the guns are mounted on the nose, such as the La-7, Bf-109, etc... convergence is not completely necessary, and can be set to fire straight, or have longer ranges. you also are most likely firing at the most heavily armed sections of the plane, such as the tail, and back portions of the wings. When attacking a plane like the La-7, or the FW-190, or even the I-16, the back of a plane is usually very structurally strong due to the cone shape at the end of the tail and the struts in the trailing edge of the wings. Try to aim for the engine, rear of the cockpit, or on top of the wings. In a FW-190, if you hit the top of the wings, you can rip them off with a 1/2 second burst, or if you're not that accurate, like me, a 1 second burst would be fine. As long as you concentrate your fire on one particular spot, especially with machine guns like .50's, which don't explode like cannon fire. There are certain strategies used with mg's and cannons. Rip a hole open in the plane with your MG's, and then do more destruction inside with the cannons. However, if you haven't tried, you only need two 7.7mm guns to down a Hawker Hurricane. You just have to aim for the engine and pilot. Put your MG's to 300m convergence, and don't use the 109E-4's cannons, try do down it with the least amount of ammo possible. You can do it, I've done it with two short bursts. Just improve your aim and learn the weakspots of the planes you're attacking, and you'll be fine.

ZG77_Nagual
02-02-2004, 08:20 AM
I've been playing with the 190s again after a hiatus with the airacobra (most fun overall plane if you ask me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). 190s have allways been my favs online and I've been focused on the dora lately - practicing vs four ace la7s or yak3s offline. I'd say I take this down probably 70% of the time with one short burst during a high speed pass - frequently both wings come off, but the normal kill is one wing - particularly with the la7s which are a bit tougher.
The trick is to get very close - I've set cannon convergence to 150 meters (for ages I had it at 300) figuring it is still good out to 300 or so - but I generally shoot from much closer - in fact collision avoidance has become an important issue for me - the fast roll of the 190 really helps in this regard. 6 'oclock is not your best option for taking down any fighter - you get glancing angles and not much damage for ammo expended - occassionally you get lucky, but overall it's not the best.
I've not found the damage models on the las and yaks particularly daunting - though I do agree the loss of control with just a nick to a wing on the 190 is a realy pain.
Centerline shots from above are my fav - but oftentimes you end up with a wing in front of you, and that works quite well too - the key the way I've been flying lately is tight convergence on the cannons and shooting from very, very close. At long ranges the .50 guns, and even the .303s on the early cobra, are good, the .50s are quite effective and can be used to degrade or steer the opponent fairly far out if he's getting away from you. Alot of times when I'm shooting at a target that is inside my convergence I'll roll so the wings are running paralell to the opponents course - this exposes him to all my guns, regardless of convergence and is very effective in making sure as much fire as possible arrives on target - again the 190's quick roll helps - then use the rudder to hold on target as long as possible

Maple_Tiger
02-02-2004, 08:32 AM
Actualy i have my convergence set to 180m for the P-51 and P-47. P- 40 i have it set to 200m. Im usualy flying the P-51.

It does not take much to down a BF109 or Fw. But not just some times i mean all the time when i engage an La7 or Yak these plane will sook up 2 to 3 times more damage then a German plane like the Fw or BF109.

Mayby cannons are diffarant but im not talking about cannons, the planes that i fly have 50cal mg.

p1ngu666
02-02-2004, 08:37 AM
the yak is awful with a damaged wing, the 190 handles oddly with a damaged wing :\

ZG77_Nagual
02-02-2004, 08:42 AM
I agree, they are pretty tough - but then it's said wooden planes were tougher in this regard. - Also the Yak is a small target. Haven't tried the 51 much against them - but the p40 does reasonably well - and that with 300 meter convergence.

Anwya - I do agree these types seem more durable that the 109 or p51- (yaks are VERY vulnerable to engine flammage from above however). whether that is historically accurate or not I do not know.

WUAF_Badsight
02-03-2004, 12:14 AM
ok strongest plane in-game = P-47 thunderbolt

plane worst affected by wing hits = FW-190

the DM online is truly wierd

i have done & seen done VERY odd things online

the place to test is OFFLINE

& BTW ..... no russian plane is 3 times stronger than the FW-190 or P-47

kyrule2
02-03-2004, 01:25 AM
Oops.

kyrule2
02-03-2004, 01:25 AM
100% correct Badsight.

http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors" by Nicolas Trudgian

LEXX_Luthor
02-03-2004, 02:31 AM
TB~3 ?



__________________
RUSSIAN lexx website http://www.lexx.ufo.ru/members.shtml
Stanly is a moron, kai is a walking dead beet, Xev just want sex.
:
you will still have FB , you will lose nothing ~WUAF_Badsight

WUAF_Badsight
02-03-2004, 03:34 AM
ok ok i stand corrected

Lexx Luthor got me

p1ngu666
02-03-2004, 07:47 AM
wit the skin i gave ya your jug should be tougher http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
190 has odd wing damage
yaks,109s can get worse damage, making it really hard to just stay in the air