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View Full Version : What's better, ATI Radeon 9800 or NVidia 5800



XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:31 PM
Can I get answers from the users?

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:31 PM
Can I get answers from the users?

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:42 PM
The 5800 sucks. Nobody buys that card. If what you meant was the 5900, then I like it better than the 9800. IMHO!

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:09 PM
Yeah the 5800 was supposed to match the 9800 but nvidia just couldnt cut it and needed to call a "do over" much like a 3 year old boy playing baseball or something, so they came out with the sanppy, "better than the 9800 in some tests and not in others cause we lye on tests" 5900. If you like to give your money to satan and want your computer to be louder than Buzzu's mom's *****, get the 5900. If you dont want to be a good old boy, blow-hard, nvidia bastard and want a card thats good, has good price, blasts dx9 better (in my opinion) and is quiter, get the 9800, the 5900 needs to push twice the clockspeeds to even match it since nvidia cant beat it any other way, and because of that the fan is so loud, and it runs hotter and is bigger in comp and takes 2 slots. and yes BUZZu i know you have both cards, you couldnt possibly say that enuff i think kids in rawanda know you have both cards.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:16 PM
Marty being as ignorant as usual. The 5900 is quieter than the 9800. Try and keep up Marty.

btw..The new nvidia drivers are not cheat drivers anymore.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:19 PM
ok i think you meant the 5900Ultra , cause its a lot better than the 5800

they are very similar in performance

a squadmate has both & tested them with 2 diff drivers each card , the ATI on his system was better

the ATI & Nvidia seem to suit different system configerations so youll want to test both , each with the best drivers you can find BEFORE you lay over all that cash

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:21 PM
5900 isnt loud, that was the 5800. They are both good cards, you wouldn't be unhappy with either. They trade off leads in different games so I would say that whichever one gives you the most for your money, ie best game bundle or other stuff they dump in that box to get you to buy it. Stupid ati fanboys in here are getting really loud now that nvidia has a card to compete. Get over it fanboys, neither company is more evil than the next, neither would go out of their way to do something for you. Buy what you want and dont listen to fanboys.

btw I have a 9800 Pro, I like it. I always used to run Nvidia, I liked them too.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

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--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:22 PM
does nvidia pay you now, cause your tone has defintly changed. and it's not ignorance, its truth. Nvidia needed to beat 9800 so bad they took their crappy 5800, got a new quieter better fan, and OVERCLOCKED it to incredibly high clock speeds. That was the only way to beat 9800. Wait till radeon get the same fan and overclock it x2. I wonder which one would be faster, call up your buddy the nvidia sales rep and ask. And i am nowhere near a FANBOY, plus god stop using that term, i had a Voodoo3 and when 5 was comin out i got a GF2 instead, and everyone was all "VOODOO will still be better just cause there name duh, im in 3rd grade" gee look what happened there, so when it came time to get a new one from GF2 (always loved that card) i coulda got a MTV card again but i see what happened to voodoo happening to nvidia, and there card just isnt better, its just overclocked, so i chose ATI, per PCGAMER's advice, ive been reading that stuff since CD 7, so dont call me a fanboy, i will hate ATI and go for the next guy as soon as they turn to LYING crap like nvidia.

Message Edited on 09/07/0308:29PM by marty67

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:27 PM
Marty,

Since you were wrong about the noise. You should start thinking your wrong about everything.

edit..I forgot to ask you. Does ATI pay you?

25th_Buzz
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Message Edited on 09/07/0301:28PM by BuzzU

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:30 PM
Since your wrong about how uber you are........... recess is over buzzu back to class

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:31 PM
Drunk again?

25th_Buzz
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http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:33 PM
You know that would be really funny but i dont drink, i havent had a sip in months, your just gonna need a better comeback and its not worth posting again.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:35 PM
So your this ignorant when your sober too?

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:37 PM
Read This post:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=zaagw

And this other:

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzsmm

They are full of info & flames... good stuff

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:37 PM
hey buzz, Look how cool your are, why dont you just stop, you proved your the "un-disputed" "man". You ego is obviously threatened and over-inflated. Be an american and go turn on the news and hate some other country, not me. and stop posting in this dudes hijacked thread.

good job on posting something usefull asmatic :-)

Message Edited on 09/07/03 08:38PM by marty67

Message Edited on 09/07/0308:39PM by marty67

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:44 PM
Marty,

Listen stupid. Read my first post, and then read yours. I gave my opinion on the cards, which is what he asked for. You gave a bunch of false information, and started ragging on me. Now your trying to turn it around? Just stop posting before you make a bigger fool of yourself.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 10:33 PM
marty67 wrote:
- does nvidia pay you now, cause your tone has
- defintly changed. and it's not ignorance, its truth.
- Nvidia needed to beat 9800 so bad they took their
- crappy 5800, got a new quieter better fan, and
- OVERCLOCKED it to incredibly high clock speeds. That
- was the only way to beat 9800. Wait till radeon get
- the same fan and overclock it x2. I wonder which
- one would be faster, call up your buddy the nvidia
- sales rep and ask. And i am nowhere near a FANBOY,
- plus god stop using that term, i had a Voodoo3 and
- when 5 was comin out i got a GF2 instead, and
- everyone was all "VOODOO will still be better just
- cause there name duh, im in 3rd grade" gee look what
- happened there, so when it came time to get a new
- one from GF2 (always loved that card) i coulda got a
- MTV card again but i see what happened to voodoo
- happening to nvidia, and there card just isnt
- better, its just overclocked, so i chose ATI, per
- PCGAMER's advice, ive been reading that stuff since
- CD 7, so dont call me a fanboy, i will hate ATI and
- go for the next guy as soon as they turn to LYING
- crap like nvidia.
-

Everyone company does what it takes to tell you their stuff is the best. You might call it lying, but I call it marketing. When the 9700 first came out ATI tried to claim it was 2x as fast across the board as the 4800! Remember that? Remember the Quake Quack fiasco? Truth is all companys, whether its Nvidia and ATI or Intel and AMD are going to show you the numbers that make them look the best. You have to be able to look at all the numbers, and if you do you see there is not much of a difference, at least not enough for the passion I see some people show towards video cards. Is Hyundai a dirty lying company when they try to tell you their cars are better than Hondas?




"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:01 PM
Right now I own a Radeon 8500 64MB card and after trying both brands I tend to like ATI better (once they get their drivers sorted out). I want to upgrade very soon and I was wondering what my best bet would be for the money. I was thinking of going to a computer show and getting a 9700Pro. Do you think that would be the best choice for the money, giving me a significant upgrade at a reasonable price. I try to avoid all the bells and whistles and just go for fast card without all the fancy stuff so I am wondering if the 9700Pro is still the way to go or if there is a more "no frills" card out there that would still give me a significant boost?

Any help/suggestion would be appreciated.

<center>
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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 09/07/0310:01PM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:04 PM
Go with the 9700.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:41 PM
What i've heard you should go with 9800 se. (If you are thinking of 9700 pro.)

Similar performance but also some new additions in architecture.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:50 PM
9800 se sucks, it is sometimes as slow as a 9500. If you dont want to spend too much, a 9700 or 9800 is a good bet. The 5900 nonpros are poping up at prices just a little over the 9800 prices, so it would be a good bet too. ATI stoped manufacturing 9700s becuase they cost a lot and dont want to sell them cheap, thats why they released the 9800se, its cheap, but dont be fooled, its a 9800 with a big chunk disabled(4 pipelines instead of 8, 128bit memory instead of 25). Its kinda like the celeron of ati/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I got lucky and bought a 9800 that happened to have the same memory chips as the 9800 Pro, so I did a little flash of the bios and now I magically have a 9800 Pro/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 12:33 AM
So you guys are saying that maybe the 9700 or 9800 non-pro (not the SE) would be the way to go? Is that a significant upgrade over the 8500 series? Or are you saying go with the 9700Pro?

Sorry, just want to be clear.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 09/07/0311:37PM by kyrule2

Cpt.LoneRanger
09-08-2003, 12:42 AM
1. ATi was forced to admit, that their drivers cheated in benchmarks like 3Dmark's, too.
(Besides that, they simply renamed their 8xxx to 9xxx, like nVidia did before. (GFxMX400s)

2. Drivers for nVidia were reliable and frequently upgraded, whereas ATi had to increase their group of programmers, to meet the problems with previous drivers. Until early this year, ATi was 3-6 month behind with driver compatability.

3. ATI 9800 (pro) is really loud!
5800/5900 have bigger cooling grids and therefore are fitted with smaller fans.

I'd go for the 9800 (pro). It maybe slower on certain games, due to problems with drivers, as it seems, but overall it has the better performance and with FSAA and AA is awesome with those babies.

PS: I'm an ATi-Fan since my first PC, but you gotta keep an open mind. These drivers problems were the main reason for me, to switch to nVidia, but I'll probably switch back to ATi at the end of the year.


greets
Cpt.LoneRanger


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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 12:44 AM
I would either get a 9700, 9800, or a GeforceFX 5900. If you want to spend less and can find a cheap 9700 it is a good upgrade over the 8500. The 9700Pro is about as fast as a 9800, but you can usually get the 9800 up to 9800 Pro speeds, plus hte 9800 has some features the 9700 Pro doesnt, which makes it run better with Antialiasing and aniso filtering. The 5900 is also a good card, and if you can find one as cheap as a 9800 I think it would be a better buy. I think the 5900 and 9800 would come down to what goodies they put in the box for ya. But if you want to go with ATI, 9800 is the way to go(not the se).


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 12:51 AM
Thanks, from searching it looks like its hard to even find a 9700 or 9700Pro. Maybe I'll go with the 9800 or 5900 standard cards (not se). The only reason I have always liked ATI is because their 2D seemed WAY better to me. I think ATI has outstanding 2D, and 3DFX had incredible 2D. Don't laugh, but I thought that I read/heard that some of the technology learned when Nvidia bought out 3DFX didn't find its way into any cars until the 5800 or 5900 series of cards. I may be wrong but this is what I have heard. I would try the 5900 but if the 2D looks like crap I'll return it, like I did with previous Nvidia cards.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:01 AM
Who the hell is this "marty" ******bag?




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Off to battle we will go,
To live or die, hell, I don't know.
Hail oh hail oh INFANTRY!
Queen of Battle, follow me!
An Airborne Ranger's life for me,
Oh, nothing in this world is free.

Cowace2
Commanding Officer
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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:37 AM
I would go for the $250 sapphire 9800nonpro from newegg.com.

It comes with samsung 3.3ns ram that when biosed flashed runs pro speeds with no extra cooling.

I just received one and it's very nice.

I sold my old sapphire 9700non pro (with a bios flash) on ebay for $214 (i've been using it for 8months and paid $240 new from newegg.com) and put in another $36 to do a slight upgrade.

THat's also what I plan to do with the 9800non pro in about 6 months.

Can't beat that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif high end gameing for $5 a month.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:04 AM
Rogodin wrote:
- I would go for the $250 sapphire 9800nonpro from
- newegg.com.
-
- It comes with samsung 3.3ns ram that when biosed
- flashed runs pro speeds with no extra cooling.
-
- I just received one and it's very nice


Thanks Rogodin, I am very interested in what you are saying. Still, I don't want to sound like an idiot but how hard is it to flash the bios of the video card and how do you do it?

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:04 AM
kyrule2

If you can't afford a 5900 Ultra. Go with 9700 Pro if you can find one,and 9800 Pro if you can't.

You could always wait a short while, and i'll sell you my 5900 Ultra. You know stupid me. I have to buy everything when it comes out, because I have no brain cells left.

25th_Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:07 AM
About once a year always buy the best video card from Nvidia for under $200 and you can't go wrong (if you are a video gaming player).

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:25 AM
Nvidia is crap for sub $300 cards, buy ati if you want the best IQ, driver support, DVD playback, and speed.

Use nvidia (unless it's the 5900U) only if you're an nvidiot.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:30 AM
Buzz, I would definitely take you up on that, I just wonder how long it would be. I don't know if I can wait that long though. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

I'm looking to spend around $250, and thats where the 9800 non-prop seems to fall in. I think the 9800Pro is out of reach for me right now. I think I'm leaning towards a 9700Pro or 9800 non-pro right now. I don't know exactly how those two compare but they seem similar.

Buzz, maybe I'll upgrade my cpu and motherboard and wait for you to sell yours.

Btw, I appreciate everyone's responses so far, very helpful.

<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 09/08/0301:33AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:33 AM
Kyrule2

If you buy the sapphire 9800 non pro from newegg.com right now you can get the 3.3ns samsung ram board-it's amazing and with the bios flash can OC (it can OC to pro speeds without it but the voltage doesn't get uped) it to pro speeds easily and most are getting it over pro.

If you are loath to try it yourself I would do it for free if you ship it to me.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:37 AM
Id actually look for dell 9800s on ebay. They have all been reported to have 2.8ns memory which is the same stuff that the Pros have. Otherwise I think people have reported that the ATI branded ones from Best Buy have a good chance of having the 2.8ns ram.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:50 AM
You can't bios flash the dells and they're clock locked way below 9800np speeds.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:03 AM
Rogo,

You showed your true colors this time. Even when I tell him to get a 9800, you have to rag on nvidia for no reason.

25th_Buzz
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<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:20 AM
Sub $300 nvidia cards are poor performers (unless you got in on the evga deal that is now over), when compared to their ati counterparts.

I'm a budget card buyer unlike you buzz so yes my true colors show when I'm worried about the most performance per dollar.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:21 AM
I didn't rag on nvidia, I just said that their cards aren't worth the money when spending $300 or less.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:23 AM
Oh yea you can. I got one in my box right now/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif The dell 9800 non pro (not se) have 2.8ns memory and have no problem being flashed. They are just standard built by ati 9800s.


"Ich bin ein Wuergerwhiner"

"The future battle on the ground will be preceded by battle in the air. This will determine which of the contestants has to suffer operational and tactical disadvantages and be forced throughout the battle into adoption compromise solutions." --Erwin Rommel

http://lbhskier37.freeservers.com/Mesig.jpg
--NJG26_Killa--

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:26 AM
wow /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

What I heard was from buyers on rage3d.com, sorry for hard rebuttal.

That's a good deal /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rogo



<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:29 AM
Rogo, you post like a pogo. Quit spewing your ATI lies about driver support, etc, and learn how to use the edit button. You know and I know that Nvidia cards work the best in games, and I'm not talking about pure FPS. Nvidia has the mobo, chipset, sound AND video covered now. ATI are just a bunch of tweakers who games keep having to fix errors in their patches for. I have a GF4ti4400. Had it for about a year (paid $185) And when the FX5700 comes out and sells for under $200, I'll buy that next. If you pay over $200 for a video card, you're just dumb or in the top 5% of wealth.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:33 AM
$40 above gross income must mean I'm wealthy.

The edit button is for men with no balls.

I've owned your card and compared it to ati and it sucks-period and you know it.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:39 AM
Rogo, it's nice to know that you are scamming people on E-Bay, but the reality is that honest folk know that one can not expect to get more than half the new value of used computer hardware.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:40 AM
Please gentlemen, calm down.

How hard is it to flash the bios?

What is required?

What are the risks to the card?


As a note I do prefer ATI for their picture quality which is better IMHO (unless I had some defective Nvidia cards). I compared them back to back and the difference was pretty obvious. I have had my 8500 64MB card for a long time and with driver updates it still performs very well (I run FB and all other games in 1600x1200 with no problems unless in city areas, but this is more likely a cpu/memory thing). Unless I am buying the card from someone pre-owned, I would prefer to buy an ATI card. I think both companies make quality products and I would have no problems buying an Nvidia card if the price was right, I just prefer ATI from my experiences and of those I know personally. Plus I am more familiar with ATI cards now as well.

Anyway, if someone could answer my above question briefly I would appreciate it. Thanks for the offer Rogodin.



<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

Message Edited on 09/08/0302:49AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:47 AM
Krule2

Bios flash is not very difficult if you follow the dirrections.

There is no risk to the card-if there IS a bios misflash you can borrow or purchase a pci video card and reflash to the original bios.

But of the 3 bios flashes I've done all have worked perfectly.

I can give you a perfect walkthrough along with the links to the correct bios and the flashrom.

RJB

You're the one that was scamed, $185 for a G4 even 13 months ago was a ripoff.

rogo



<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:52 AM
Nvidia, they conquered the graphics card market. Then, they made a better chipset than Via or Intel and made a better sound than Creative, all for games.

If you play games like I do then Nvidia is the correct choice, by default. I give kudos to ATI for keeping Nvidia on their toes but personally I have read too many problems about them in game patches and in tech support forums (for games).

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:55 AM
Rogodin wrote:

- I can give you a perfect walkthrough along with the
- links to the correct bios and the flashrom

That would be cool, any info would help.

- There is no risk to the card-if there IS a bios
- misflash you can borrow or purchase a pci video card
- and reflash to the original bios.

Not sure I understand this. Why is a PCI card required if there is a misflash? Sorry about all the questions.




<center>
http://www.brooksart.com/Icewarriors.jpg

"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 03:58 AM
Who the $%^& would buy a 8 month old video card on ebay when they could pay $5 more and buy it new? Someone Rogodogin scammed that's who.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 04:02 AM
NP Ky2

If you misflash your vga card won't boot so you need to boot to dos (using a pci video card) and then run your flashrom from the floppy through the pci card to reflash the bios on the agp card /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Here is a great thread on exactly what I've done and what others have done with the 9800 nonpro.

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33695811

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:46 AM
I preferr the 9800 PRO over all nvidia offerings really. And as of today ATI is the only offer for dx 9 games really. So if you want to play new games with your card get ATI or wait until nvidia gets something competitive.

nVidia got some really poor PS 2.0 performance which make it suck in dx 9 which both John Carmack (Doom III guru) and the Half Life people have acknowledged.

Here is some quotes:

Update 09/06: We also emailed Gabe Newell from Valve Software about his experience with Pixel Shader Performance:

GD: We've started some initial DX9 Shader tests, and have seen, so far that NVIDIA NV3x hardware has a hard time.. Will it'll be similar w/ the HL2 Benchmark?

"Yep."

Gabe Newell


Update 09/05: We emailed id Software guru, John Carmack about his experience with NV3x hardware on Pixel Shading performance, and this was his reply:

GD: John, we've found that NVIDIA hardware seems to come to a crawl whenever Pixel Shader's are involved, namely PS 2.0..

Have you witnessed any of this while testing under the Doom3 environment?

"Yes. NV30 class hardware can run the ARB2 path that uses ARB_fragment_program, but it is very slow, which is why I have a separate NV30 back end that uses NV_fragment_program to specify most of the operations as 12 or 16 bit instead of 32 bit."

John Carmack


Who are we to argue with NVIDIA's wishes? They've been insisting that synthetic benchmarks such as 3DMark 2003 don't reflect actual game play - yesterday we took them up on that in the mobile space, and today we look at the desktop cards. Using a Beta build of Halo (version 1.5) and the newly released Tomb Raider Patch, we've been able to provide an early peak at Pixel Shader 2.0 performance - even 1.1 and 1.4 performance as well.

After our look at the Mobile GPUs we've heard it all by now - most notably, that we're a bunch of "ATI Fan-boys" - let me set the record straight, we're "performance Fan-boys", regardless of who's making the product. Our review history of video cards will show that if you actually go read our past NVIDIA-based video card reviews.

NVIDIA has done a great job of stroking game developers which have let them land their "Way It's
Meant to be Played" badge in most of the games coming out. After spending some time with cards from both ATI and NVIDIA it's apparent that NVIDIA is more marketing-driven while ATI is sticking to its guns of bringing the best performance to the desktop user bar-none. They don't sacrifice image quality for the sake of performance - their card has been out well ahead of NVIDIA.

We know that both companies have tied themselves to two of the most anticipated games ever - NVIDIA with Doom 3 and ATI with Half Life 2. In a rather ironic twist of fate for NVIDIA, however, Doom 3 won't ship until next year - meanwhile Half Life 2 is said to ship this year (ATI's next card should come bundled with it). So it looks like ATI will get quite a large jump in user-base before NVIDIA can strike again.

It's interesting, nonetheless to watch both companies jockey for position - it's no doubt a great time to be a gamer.

What's disturbing for us, however, is that typically 5900 Ultra's are priced incredibly higher than 9800 Pro's; our last check around the web have the 9800 Pro's starting at $290.00 while a 5900 Pro will run you closer to $400.00 for quite a bit less performance under the games right around the corner and some which are in stores now. We're afraid that there are many gamers and OEM's who get "blinded" by the benchmarks we've all been guilty of holding too much weight in and have based their purchasing decisions on those scores. Heck, for the price of the 5900 Ultra, you can get a 9800 Pro All-in-Wonder - all the 3D goodness with kick-*** Multimedia features to boot.

If you want to read the hole article see

http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati_vs_nvidia/dx9_desktop/002.htm

This is verified from several different sources as well including www.beyond3d.com (http://www.beyond3d.com)


So if you want a future proof card get a 9700 PRO or faster Radeon.



Message Edited on 09/08/0304:50AM by oeqvist

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:49 AM
Thanks for some empirical evidence oq /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

even the nvidiots at nvnews.net are finally seeing the light.

nvnews.net

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.world-data-systems.com/aerofiles/albums/userpics/9-03-Rear%7E0.jpg>


"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:11 AM
Cpt.LoneRanger wrote:
- 1. ATi was forced to admit, that their drivers
- cheated in benchmarks like 3Dmark's, too.
- (Besides that, they simply renamed their 8xxx to
- 9xxx, like nVidia did before. (GFxMX400s)


Yes ATI did some optimizations in 1 driver release with a 2 % game which would put into comparison to nVidias optimizations which was showned by renaming the 3dmark exe-file to 3dmurc http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif to 20 %. Thus nvidia cheated 10 times more.

More. After public demand the optimizations was gone with the next driver release from ATI even if it was hard to show that image quality was suffering from it. But video cards makers shouldn´t alter shaders for any game is my opinion so I am thankful they did.

Nvidia as we all know continue with their cheating with disregard of all the critics they get for it.
-
- 2. Drivers for nVidia were reliable and frequently
- upgraded, whereas ATi had to increase their group of
- programmers, to meet the problems with previous
- drivers. Until early this year, ATi was 3-6 month
- behind with driver compatability.

Yes ATI:s poor drivers is ancient history since long and today got fewer issues than nvidias drivers.
-
- 3. ATI 9800 (pro) is really loud!
- 5800/5900 have bigger cooling grids and therefore
- are fitted with smaller fans.

Well from what I have see most 9800 PROs got different cooling solutions. Some may be louder than others. there is a sapphire 9800 PRO ultimate edition on it´s way which use a heatpipe instead of a fan. Have installed a heatpipe on my 9700 PRO and that comb. with a 7-volted 120 mm fan gives unbeatable cooling at very low db. It´s quiter than any traditional cooled card I have ever had. And I have no problem running my 9700 PRO with only the heatpipe.
-
- I'd go for the 9800 (pro). It maybe slower on
- certain games, due to problems with drivers, as it
- seems, but overall it has the better performance and
- with FSAA and AA is awesome with those babies.

9800 PRO is very much the same structure as the 9700 PRO and I got less problem with my 9700 PRO than I ever had with my previous nVidia cards. The 9800 PRO is a more mature card than for example the 5900 ULTRA which still has it´s child diseases like every new generation always has.

But there isn´t much to gain going from a 9700 PRO to 9800 PRO. Maximum 10 % in todays games. the R350 do got some extra dx 9 features so it may be a bigger difference in speed in games like Half Life 2 and DOOM 3.

Time will tell.
-
- PS: I'm an ATi-Fan since my first PC, but you gotta
- keep an open mind. These drivers problems were the
- main reason for me, to switch to nVidia, but I'll
- probably switch back to ATi at the end of the year.
-
-
-
- greets
- Cpt.LoneRanger

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:14 AM
Why get 3.3 ns when you can get 2.8 ns RAM?

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:24 AM
What a weak argument. It's well documented that both companies cheat on benchmark scores, so it's best to not even bring it up. Of course Oeqvist is shooting blanks so he always has to play that card. The 5900 beats the 9800 in overall benchmarks so all Oeqvist can talk about is 2.0, the one benchmark it won, which isn't even in any games yet. Nice copy and paste.

If you are a person who values stability and compatability in games, then go for Nvidia. If you like to watch movies and edit home videos then ATI might be worth a shot (it's how they became famous).

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 06:33 AM
The 5900U is a good card but it's not worth the money nor the frustration of burnt out cards or shoddy driver support: nvnews.net

If you want the best bang for the buck (gawd I must stop it or RJB will tell me his G4ti4400 is Alah), the best IQ, the best fps, the best driver support, and the best DVD playback then go for ati. I don't have to support my claims because no one else here does.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



Message Edited on 09/07/0310:36PM by Rogodin

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:12 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- Marty,
-
- Listen stupid. (blah blah blah....)

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hilarious! Besides, I needed to clean my monitor anyway.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:15 AM
No offense to buzz and his purchase (the 5900U is a good card, my uncle runs it now).

Rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:16 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Rogo, you post like a pogo.

Even better! Quick, somebody get me a bag of microwave popcorn.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:19 AM
FWIW, I have a 9800. Had a Ti4400 before that. The difference is night and day.

Put your anisotropic filtering on a slider and never look back.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:32 AM
You guys keep harping on HL2. I thought we were playing FB here. I beat Hunters scores in FB, and his CPU is overclocked way past mine. He uses an o/c 9800.

Go look in the Black Death thread on this page, and see if you can match my score with your 9800.

You keep talking about the 3D 2003 score. Maybe there is cheating in that test. I never use it myself. See if your 9800 can beat a 5900 in 3D 2001.

I just installed NR2003 tonight, because there are some mods coming out for it soon. At 1600 res 8x fsaa, I was getting 90 fps. Try that with your 9800. I don't want to hear about image either. The game looks the same as it did when I had a 9800.

I'm just not convinced by any of your arguements. I know what I see coming out of my system.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:52 AM
Hunter gets the same fps as you buzz with his 9800.

My 1.9 2100+ with 1gig of crucial pc2700 isn't adequate to comapre, but hunters is, ask him.

I've seen the score already and he get's almost the exact fps as you do, but his AA and AF will look better maxed.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:02 AM
Sorry, his score was lower on the Black Death test. His CPU is at 3.6 too.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:30 AM
Post the numbers, system specs, and settings.

rogo

<center><img src =http://www.uploadit.org/files/080903-rogo2.jpg>



"Those who long for exaltation look upwards. But I look downwards for I am the exalted." This was a quote from Nietzsche as he flew in his FW190 @ 20,000ft looking downwards.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 08:33 AM
We already did that in another thread. You were in that thread. I don't remember the title of the thread, and i'm not looking for it. Just ask Hunter, because I don't reallly care.

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 10:26 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- What a weak argument. It's well documented that
- both companies cheat on benchmark scores, so it's
- best to not even bring it up. Of course Oeqvist is
- shooting blanks so he always has to play that card.
- The 5900 beats the 9800 in overall benchmarks so
- all Oeqvist can talk about is 2.0, the one benchmark
- it won, which isn't even in any games yet. Nice
- copy and paste.

RBJ, you are talking without any knowledge as usual in all ati vs nvidia posts. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

1)It's well documented that both companies have cheated. It's well documented that nvidia cheats still at the present time. Cheating is well documented so its possible to surpass "optimizations" and see true performances

2)We can talk about 2.0 for hours but you cant see facts if you dont want to see them.
Dx 9 games ARE HERE ( did you know tomb raider: angel of darkness?) in the future, doom 3 and HL2 are the bests examples of dx9 games. dx9 will be used long after dx10 appears, in the same way that dx8 survived until now.
Even more, future Opengl games will use also hardware shaders

So all the games we will see in the next 2-3 years will be based mainly on dx9 and they will run crappy at the actual dx9 nvidia hardware if they use ps2.0 (most of them) FYI, vertex shaders replaces the fixed pipeline and does transform & lighting adding possibilities like real-time deformations of the models etc etc. pixel shaders are used to render grapich effects(spherical mapping, per pixel illumination, bump mapping, water and heat effects (see LOMAC screens and FB's perfect water) post rendering effects etc etc.

3)ps2.0 will be much more used than 8.1 shaders because they are much more powerfull, much more flexible,much more accurate with floating point data, the routines can be longer, can have flow control instructions and be reused easily in new games.

You are repeating over and over the old propaganda you heared from someone wich heared from some other...


I hope your next card will be a Fx card _¿ /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif



Message Edited on 09/08/0311:28AM by asmatic

LLv34_Jani
09-08-2003, 11:07 AM
The disputes between ATI and Nvidia is idiotic no matter how you put it.

Radeon 9700/9800 and FX5800/5900 are great cards.
yes the first batch with FX5800 made alot of noise but they fixed the noise in the second batch.

IMO ATI has abit more problems with their drivers than Nvidia does but its not a major problem if you know abit about drivers and how to tweak abit here and there.

In the end the FPS difference between the major cards differs in maybe 10-20FPS wich is absolutley not significant when we are talking numbers like 130fps in a game.

Radeon MAY have abit better picture quality but you will hardly notice the difference when you play Flightsims or FPS games.

Im pretty confident that you will be happy with whatever card you buy.

Good luck on your shopping /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:19 PM
Buzz! Do you really mean you don´t know nVidia is running game specific optimizations in just about every big title. It´s not just 3DMark 2001 and 2003 it´s UT2K3 and a lot other games too. When examine nVidias det fx drivers they find optimization triggers for more than 100 different exe-files. And nvidia has confessed that this is their strategy and they don´t plan to change that in the future so it´s no secret.

Why are you denying this stuff when even nvidia has been forced to confess it? It´s ridiculous to just assume that both ATI and nVidia cheats. How come is it nVidia gets caught every time why ATI is not? As I have said the optimizations that was found from ATI was in one driver release and they where removed in the next.


You haven´t wondered why the 5900 ULTRA win it´s benches? It´s mainly because it doesn´t do full trilinear, it uses lower quality aa and anisotropic as well as lower precision colours. That and the driver issue I mentioned above Believe me it´s not just the PS 2.0 performance that is important.

And why would we mention games like HL 2 and DOOM 3? Well for anyone not only playing IL 2 for the unseeable future this two games will power a lot of the next games available. Don´t now if games like LOMAC is dx 9 but just about every upcoming dx 9 games will use PS 2.0 and thus it´s important for everyone who just don´t want to play IL 2 FB solely for the next 2 years.

The fact is if you want to run dx 9 games with your videocard which I would presume most people wants that buy a 400$ + dx 9 card nVidia hasn´t got any video card at the moment that can deliver.

Believe me I will be the first to post when there is a nvidia card beating the Radeon when/if they finally get out a Radeon killer even if it´s temporary. Performance fanboy as I am http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sadly it seems like nVidia hasn´t done it´s homework with the 5900 ULTRA also. wonder if they will have to make excuses for it like the 5800 ULTRA.

And Nascar 2003 isn´t really demanding or graphics heaven. 90 fps is minimum what you would expect from that game.

I understand you don´t want to hear about the bad performance of your card in dx 9 games. But I am sure everyone who consider purchasing a new 400$ video card I am sure want it to perform well in both dx 8 and dx 9.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 01:30 PM
The disputes between ATI and Nvidia is idiotic no
- matter how you put it.

Well for anyone choosing between an ATI or Nvidia video card the anyone he can be helped in choosing is hearing the arguments for and against each video card. If everyone where silent and saying both is good cards it´s no point he is posting his question.
-
- Radeon 9700/9800 and FX5800/5900 are great cards.
- yes the first batch with FX5800 made alot of noise
- but they fixed the noise in the second batch.
-
- IMO ATI has abit more problems with their drivers
- than Nvidia does but its not a major problem if you
- know abit about drivers and how to tweak abit here
- and there.
-
- In the end the FPS difference between the major
- cards differs in maybe 10-20FPS wich is absolutley
- not significant when we are talking numbers like
- 130fps in a game.
-
Go to dx 9 benchmarks and even a 9500 PRO can show better performance than a 5900 ULTRA.

The speed difference is very obvious there on every game/benchmark utilizing PS 2.0. It would maybe not be as surprising as ATI since the 8500 got far better shader performance than both the Geforce 3 and Geforce 4:s but shaders wasn´t as big of a deal and nVidia could compensate for it with their great Geforce 4:s then as it´s now when shaders is the most important feature for dx 9 games.

- Radeon MAY have abit better picture quality but you
- will hardly notice the difference when you play
- Flightsims or FPS games.

Well if you got a good monitor you should be able to see the difference. Some games show bigger difference in image quality and others because of nVidias optimizations but sure it depends on the game. Fast paced games like UT 2K3 and others you won´t have time to see it and the 5900 ULTRA Image quality isn´t bad.
-
- Im pretty confident that you will be happy with
- whatever card you buy.

I really doubt that buying a NV card and playing dx 9 games will make you happy when you can get a lot faster Radeon for less money.

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 04:49 PM
more info on dx9 cards and dx9 games (both nvidia & ati)

http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_cards/ati_vs_nvidia/dx9_desktop/001.htm

Edit: the review seems pro ati

Message Edited on 09/08/0305:50PM by asmatic

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:19 PM
oeqvist

Are you saying that the fps i'm getting in FB and other games like NR2003 and F1 99-02 are not what i'm really getting?

Hunters 3D 2001 score is 21000. Mine is only 18000, yet in the Black Death test. My fps are higher. How is this explained?

I also don't agree that NR2003 is not a drain on a system. Have you tried it with 30 cars on the track?

25th_Buzz
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<center>
http://www.vfa25.com/sigs/buzz.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 05:59 PM
no text



Message Edited on 09/08/0307:20PM by asmatic

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:20 PM
As an nVidia fan I find it hard to say, but the Ati 9800Pro 256MB is the fastest card at the moment.../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

http://members.chello.nl/l.gans/Pix/warthog_01.gif

______________________
++ morbid = humanity ++

http://www.inageandsadness.tk
(for your Death/Doom Metal needs!)

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 07:27 PM
BuzzU wrote:
- oeqvist
-
- Are you saying that the fps i'm getting in FB and
- other games like NR2003 and F1 99-02 are not what
- i'm really getting?
-
-
- Hunters 3D 2001 score is 21000. Mine is only 18000,
- yet in the Black Death test. My fps are higher. How
- is this explained?
-
-
- I also don't agree that NR2003 is not a drain on a
- system. Have you tried it with 30 cars on the track?
-

No I am saying the fps you get are a lot through nvidias game specific optimizations. Hence nVidia like to play with the shaders. That and the fact these is dx 8 games and are not utilizing the PS 2.0 shaders.

The extra FPS you are getting is the fps nVidia gives you by sacrificing image quality by altering the shaders.

30 cars on the track it´s the CPU that does most of the work. AI, Animation and so on is all on CPU. Nascar games by nature is very CPU driven.



Message Edited on 09/08/0306:44PM by oeqvist