PDA

View Full Version : Zero problem at AEP, reporting bugs to previne PF from using the same model



semitary_gates
08-13-2004, 07:34 AM
Hello everyone

I'm an entusiast of the Japanese Zero's. I've bought the IL2: Forgotten Battles with the Ace Pack and I'm flying the Zero about 99% of the time. But I've found some errors that really are bothering me. I'm studing for aeronautic engeneering and I'm researching a lot about the Zero's. Please, reaply if you have noticed it too or if I'm wrong. I would be pleased with any comments. I'm posting here at PACIFIC FIGHTERS FORUM because I think that this may previne Zero come out from the game box unrealistic again. The errors are:


* the altimeter's bigger needle displays the 1000's (thousand) meter and the little one seems inoperative. The correct would be the bigger one for 100's meter(hundred) and the little one for the thousand

* the airspeed indicator show airspeed in km/h when the correct would be knots. The size of airspeed indicator is correct to the real thing, like where it is written "14" that would mean 140 kts but the aircraft is at 140km/h. The bigger number at the indicator is "30" that means 300kts. But in the game you are usely above the "30" and the airspeed ind. seems inoperative beacuse actualy it's saying that you are above 300km/h (no more than 170 kts) and that's very common in dogfights (to be above 170kts). Just for comprovating that I'm right on my point: do you realy think that Zero max speed would be 300 km/h?!

* Zero seems to be a bit slower than actual thing. I've read from a lot of fonts and all they said that max airspeed at 2600rpm and 40"MP would be about 540 km/h. I just can reach it when I dive for several seconds. I can't reach over 400 km/h with the plane leveled, usely.

* Zero looses too much power at high altitudes. It ceiling is about 30.000ft but when you get closer your speed decreases too much. You can't fly above 220km/h at these altitudes. Before you say, yes, I've tried to disable the option to control the mixture, so it was controled automatic by the game.

* I think that the gunsight is a bit "fogged" (I realy can't find a better word). I don't know if it was intended to be like that or if my ViedoCard (GF 5200 FX) is the problem but you can't see very clearly trhout it like you can on all other airplanes.

* Just find another error, but a minor one. THe stall speed when you are configurated for landing is a bit higher than in real thing. No problem beacuse no-one fly it in the edge, but when you loose a engine and try to land that would be a problem

You may compare the cockpits in the IL2 and in CSF2, where the Zero shows correctly the airspeed and the altitude and reach higher speeds.

When I say Zero, I mean both A6M2 and A6M5a. I think that most people don't even noticed the indicators bug beacuse they usuely fly with the 'speed bar' on, but I realy like to do it like the real thing. And sure the Model 52 has some extra power over the Model 21, but both are with the "not reaching high speeds" problem

Well, I think that I may be wrong. If all of this is my mistake, PLEASE, reply it to me and I'd be very greatfully. I'm just trying to make the game better. I realy think that IL2 is the best simulator ever, no doubt about it.

I'm posting this here because I don't want that to repeat at FB. Hope too that the arcade engine menagment of IL2 AEP can be replaced with a realistic thing in FB and that they add an option to use engine1 axis, engine2 axis and mixture axis.

Thanks for reading and sorry about my English (I'm a Brazilian guy).
Gilberto Agostinho

semitary_gates
08-13-2004, 07:34 AM
Hello everyone

I'm an entusiast of the Japanese Zero's. I've bought the IL2: Forgotten Battles with the Ace Pack and I'm flying the Zero about 99% of the time. But I've found some errors that really are bothering me. I'm studing for aeronautic engeneering and I'm researching a lot about the Zero's. Please, reaply if you have noticed it too or if I'm wrong. I would be pleased with any comments. I'm posting here at PACIFIC FIGHTERS FORUM because I think that this may previne Zero come out from the game box unrealistic again. The errors are:


* the altimeter's bigger needle displays the 1000's (thousand) meter and the little one seems inoperative. The correct would be the bigger one for 100's meter(hundred) and the little one for the thousand

* the airspeed indicator show airspeed in km/h when the correct would be knots. The size of airspeed indicator is correct to the real thing, like where it is written "14" that would mean 140 kts but the aircraft is at 140km/h. The bigger number at the indicator is "30" that means 300kts. But in the game you are usely above the "30" and the airspeed ind. seems inoperative beacuse actualy it's saying that you are above 300km/h (no more than 170 kts) and that's very common in dogfights (to be above 170kts). Just for comprovating that I'm right on my point: do you realy think that Zero max speed would be 300 km/h?!

* Zero seems to be a bit slower than actual thing. I've read from a lot of fonts and all they said that max airspeed at 2600rpm and 40"MP would be about 540 km/h. I just can reach it when I dive for several seconds. I can't reach over 400 km/h with the plane leveled, usely.

* Zero looses too much power at high altitudes. It ceiling is about 30.000ft but when you get closer your speed decreases too much. You can't fly above 220km/h at these altitudes. Before you say, yes, I've tried to disable the option to control the mixture, so it was controled automatic by the game.

* I think that the gunsight is a bit "fogged" (I realy can't find a better word). I don't know if it was intended to be like that or if my ViedoCard (GF 5200 FX) is the problem but you can't see very clearly trhout it like you can on all other airplanes.

* Just find another error, but a minor one. THe stall speed when you are configurated for landing is a bit higher than in real thing. No problem beacuse no-one fly it in the edge, but when you loose a engine and try to land that would be a problem

You may compare the cockpits in the IL2 and in CSF2, where the Zero shows correctly the airspeed and the altitude and reach higher speeds.

When I say Zero, I mean both A6M2 and A6M5a. I think that most people don't even noticed the indicators bug beacuse they usuely fly with the 'speed bar' on, but I realy like to do it like the real thing. And sure the Model 52 has some extra power over the Model 21, but both are with the "not reaching high speeds" problem

Well, I think that I may be wrong. If all of this is my mistake, PLEASE, reply it to me and I'd be very greatfully. I'm just trying to make the game better. I realy think that IL2 is the best simulator ever, no doubt about it.

I'm posting this here because I don't want that to repeat at FB. Hope too that the arcade engine menagment of IL2 AEP can be replaced with a realistic thing in FB and that they add an option to use engine1 axis, engine2 axis and mixture axis.

Thanks for reading and sorry about my English (I'm a Brazilian guy).
Gilberto Agostinho

Tater-SW-
08-13-2004, 04:48 PM
What about the fact that zeros in AEP drop their drop tanks. weren't the belly tanks fixed, or were they dropable in flight?

tater

Snootles
08-13-2004, 08:06 PM
Bump.

Yeah, that Zero indicator thing always puzzled me. Since I didn't have any other info about the cockpit I didn't know if it was a bug or was right. There's another flagrant indicator problem too: the engine oil temperature gauge is inoperative for all P-47 models. Only the coolant temp gauge seems to work.

stansdds
08-13-2004, 08:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What about the fact that zeros in AEP drop their drop tanks. weren't the belly tanks fixed, or were they dropable in flight? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The drop tank on the Zero was droppable, but the mechanism for releasing the tank was sometimes unreliable. Later in the war, the tanks were not dropped due to a lack of replacement tanks.

ucanfly
08-14-2004, 02:09 AM
As far as the Air speed indicater - I am glad you mentioned this as I was puzzled why all Real Zero pilots mentioned speed in miles/hr while the cockpit we have matches the speed bar airspeed indication.

This is a flagrant error!

Hope it is fixed for PF.


P.S. I never used the speed bar unless I am trying to figure out a new cockpit.

VW-IceFire
08-15-2004, 08:23 PM
The airspeed isn't probably a bug.

You'll need to toggle virtual cockpits and press Control F1 to see the TAS (true air speed) which is what that 540 kph is probably all about.

The indicated airspeed is lower...same for any plane. Physics at work.

The "fogged" gunsight is a video card thing. Depends alot on mipmapping settings I think. Its definately video card. I've seen the same thing depending on my settings.

Stall speed was higher in the original AEP release. Its been lowered quite a bit recently and I think that Luthier was intending to make sure the Zero's stall speed was very much correct.

Carrier based aircraft need to have all their numbers right for stall speeds...thats for sure!

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

JG53Frankyboy
08-16-2004, 05:19 AM
should have the model21 and a perhaps future model32 have ruddetrim ?

so far my drawings are showing model22 is the first Zero with such a trim flap.

the models before have just a trimtab like the Bf109s at their rudder.

and before in PF the ammo amounts of the 20mm are incorrect (like in AEP release):
A6M2 60rpg
A6M3 100rpg
A6M5 125rpg ?!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

sugaki
08-16-2004, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just find another error, but a minor one. THe stall speed when you are configurated for landing is a bit higher than in real thing. No problem beacuse no-one fly it in the edge, but when you loose a engine and try to land that would be a problem<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Stall characteristics in general are flawed in FB, and they probably won't get addressed until BoB. Stall characteristics when the plane reaches the critical angle of attack are over-the-top, and the critical AoA seems too unforgiving at mid-to-lower speeds. Every stall tends to want to become a snap stall even with the engines off (negating torque) and the plane at level (negating the possibility of lower coefficient of lift on one wing).

-Aki

VW-IceFire
08-17-2004, 08:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
should have the model21 and a perhaps future model32 have ruddetrim ?

so far my drawings are showing model22 is the first Zero with such a trim flap.

the models before have just a trimtab like the Bf109s at their rudder.

and before in PF the ammo amounts of the 20mm are incorrect (like in AEP release):
A6M2 60rpg
A6M3 100rpg
A6M5 125rpg ?!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ammo was fixed in 2.01.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

JG53Frankyboy
08-17-2004, 08:18 AM
i know, just because with PF release will the A6M3 ( if Mod32 ore/and Mod22 , no glue )appear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and to have that ammo load correct than http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
08-17-2004, 08:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
i know, just because with PF release will the A6M3 ( if Mod32 ore/and Mod22 , no glue )appear http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and to have that ammo load correct than http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gotcha! Roger that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

actionhank1786
08-18-2004, 02:32 AM
What about the roll rate? I dont want to nit-pick, or start a flame war, and if it's correct then shut me up before i start. But i've read so many sources saying that the A6m was so manouverable, and had great roll rates...but in game...it's like rolling a station wagon over by yourself...it's so slow...i was thinking it would be more like the roll-rate of the FW-190...but hey i'd love to hear the fact based view on this

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White

KIMURA
08-18-2004, 04:07 AM
The A6M3 Model 22/32 had the Type 99 Model 2 Mk.III cannon with 100 round/cannon(drum fed).
The weaponery for the A6M5 Model 52 kept unchanged. First the A6M5a Model 52a (FB) had the Type 99 Model 2 Mk.IV cannon with 125 rounds/cannon (belt fed).

Kimura

LEXX_Luthor
08-18-2004, 04:46 AM
Has anyone checked out the range of A6M2 over the FB?

...then compare with range of A6M5?

JG53Frankyboy
08-18-2004, 06:07 AM
well , not the time to check endurance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

btw, the A6M3 model32 had MkII canons, short barrel , 100rpg.
late Model22 had MkIII canons, long barrel, still 100rpg

KIMURA
08-18-2004, 11:14 AM
Franky, just for clearification.

Type 99 Mk.1 Model I (short barrel)describes the 1st Model serie of the 20mm cannon type 99 with the 1st type of mechanic - drum feed, rpg and so on. Mk.1 was fitted from Model 11 to Model 32 and some Model 22.

Type 99 Mk.2 Model 1 to 4 describes the cannon type 99 2nd type with long barrel, and mechanism 1-4.Mk.2 was fitted from Model 22 to Model 62/63 and 54Hei.

A6M3 Model 32 had 2x Type 99 Mark I Model 2 with drum mag.

A6M3a Model 22, during the production the armament changed from short barrel Type 99 Mark I Model 2 to long barrel Type 99 Mark 2 Model 3.

Sorry for bad quality, I really need a new scanner. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/kimura-hei/99.jpg

Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Wed August 18 2004 at 10:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Wed August 18 2004 at 10:24 AM.]

JG53Frankyboy
08-18-2004, 07:08 PM
keep cool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
we have the same book , you remember the "keller" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - its a huge one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

and as summary, before we get crazy with all that MARKs and MODELS:
Reisen model21 with short barrel 20mm and 60rpg
model32 short barrel, 100rpg
model22early short barrel , 100rpg
model22late long barrel , 100rpg
model52a... long barrel , 125 rpg
ok ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by JG53Frankyboy on Wed August 18 2004 at 06:23 PM.]

KIMURA
08-18-2004, 11:59 PM
What's the "Keller" ? The scan is from Aero Detail A6M.

super edit: Keller, I forgot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Thu August 19 2004 at 06:01 AM.]

Cajun76
08-19-2004, 02:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by actionhank1786:
What about the roll rate? I dont want to nit-pick, or start a flame war, and if it's correct then shut me up before i start. But i've read so many sources saying that the A6m was so manouverable, and had great roll rates...but in game...it's like rolling a station wagon over by yourself...it's so slow...i was thinking it would be more like the roll-rate of the FW-190...but hey i'd love to hear the fact based view on this

http://img18.photobucket.com/albums/v54/Halfwayhank/Actionsig.png

Actionhank
~Aaron White<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How fast are you going? The Zero had outstanding slow speed manueverability. "Ailerons as big as barn doors" IIRC as being one quote from a USN pilot. But approaching 300mph (480km/h), (staring around 250-275mph) the Zero's controls, especially the ailerons, would get rather heavy. The P-40 and F4F both used this to their advantage when at high speed to outmanuever the Zero.


http://www.chuckhawks.com/p-40_vs_zero.htm
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Japanese pilots were trained to engage enemies in slow speed dogfights. Above 275 mph the Zero's excellent handling diminished, making tight high speed turns nearly impossible. The Zero's maximum safe dive speed was 350 mph. Above that speed the fighter lost the ability to roll and the skin on the wings would begin to wrinkle. It the pilot pushed harder the Zero might shed its wings.

The Zeke's roll rate at any speed was slower then all U.S. fighters of WW II. A plane's roll rate is important because all acrobatic maneuvers with the exception of the loop start with a roll. If a P-40 latched onto the tail of a Zeke and the Zeke banked to turn away, a quick reacting pilot could roll his Warhawk inside his target. For a brief period the unfortunate Zero would be under his guns and fly right through his line of fire. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson

KIMURA
08-19-2004, 02:36 AM
Cajun, as far a I learnt from Randy Wilson, former A6M2-pilot of CAF, even the "slow-rolling" A6M2 (compared to the A6M5)had impressive roll-rate, which worth an extra mention from him , up to 300. But the roll-rate of the FB-A6M-family is far from being impressive at any speed. If a RL pilot, who experienced a/c like Spits, F4F-4 and many others, does specially point out that the A6M2 roll-rate is phenomenal, then he does compare that with other a/c he flew. But the Zero has the most poor roll rate of all fighters in FB, au contrair what RL pilots say. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

The FB Zero rolls like a lead sledge, even at low speeds. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Thu August 19 2004 at 01:58 AM.]

VW-IceFire
08-19-2004, 08:59 PM
According to the NACA chart which has P-47's, Spitfires, and FW190's....the Zero is the worst...tied with the equally slow rolling Hawker Typhoon.

The Zeros manuverability is its tight turn radius. You always hear about how allied pilots were out turned...but I don't think the Zero's roll was exceptional. The A6M3 and M5 were supposed to be better however...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

Cajun76
08-19-2004, 09:07 PM
I don't know what to say. Every account I've heard, from Allied opponents to Japanese aces, say that the Zero's controls stiffened significantly around 300mph, especially the ailerons. Now, if the Zero in game has an insuffiecient roll rate under this, it should be fixed. I suspect most people fly the Zero in game much faster than it's real life counter part, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Now, for the two sites I've listed, Mr. Shilling does have a beef with the Zero's good reputation vs. the P-40's bad reputation, but the data and interview jive with other accounts I've read. Like I said, if the rollrate is too slow at low speed, by all means it should be fixed. I fly the P-47D-27 a lot, and I know what undermodeled rollrate is like. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



http://www.mucheswarbirds.com/Shilling.html
Erik Shilling of the AVG:
"The P-40 was faster (354 mph with combat load vs a little over 300 for the Zero), the roll rate at 240-280 mph was 3 times faster and the aircraft could outdive the Zero." In talking with Saburo Sakai, he was told that the Japanese pilots didn't like to dive the airplane at much over 350 mph. Apparently at anything much over that the control surfaces would stiffen and the skin on the wings would wrinkle, causing, as Sakai put it 'the pilot much concern'.


http://home.att.net/~C.C.Jordan/Shilling2.html

In a short but informative interview with Saburo Sakai, Japans leading living Ace, I asked, "Commander, what was the Zero's top speed?" His answer amazed me when he said, "The A6M2 had a top speed of 309mph. and a maximum allowable dive speed of 350 mph. It became extremely heavy on the controls above 275 mph, and approaching 350mph, the Zero's controls were so heavy it was impossible to roll. A further comment by Sakai was that the skin on the wings started to wrinkle, causing the pilot great concern, since a number of Zero's had shed their wings in a dive." A captured Zero tested by Americans military, showed its top speed to be 319mph, this was a later model, the AM6M5, and was tested without guns or ammunition. Therefore Saburo Sakai's statement that the top speed of the A6M2 and A6M3 of 309mph would seem to be correct.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/42a.jpg

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson

WUAF_Badsight
08-20-2004, 08:33 AM
you do realise how fast 300 mph is dont you ?

& you also must know that DFs lose speed & alt as a general rule ?

how many are staying over 300 MpH when turn fighting ?!?!?

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Cajun76
08-21-2004, 08:17 AM
I only turn fight Zeros at 400-500mph. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Outrun them, zoom climb, and the 8 .50cals start the marshmellow roast. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson

ucanfly
08-21-2004, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
The airspeed isn't probably a bug.

You'll need to toggle virtual cockpits and press Control F1 to see the TAS (true air speed) which is what that 540 kph is probably all about.

The indicated airspeed is lower...same for any plane. Physics at work. ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Airspeed indication in the cockpit airspeed indicator gauge is definitely not in Knots or in Miles/hour, as it matches the speed bar (which is in "indicated" km/hr). If the gauge is supposed to read in knots , this is definitely a bug.

KIMURA
08-22-2004, 05:30 AM
Cajun, strange that testings with the TAIC showed another thing. Mentioned in "Flight trial of Zeke 52" made in 7th Dec.1944 at NAS Patuxewnt River, Maryland USA.
There were mock dogfights against F4U-1D and F6F-5 and FM-2 vs. a captured A6M5.

EQUAL roll-rates of the AM6M5 to the above mentioned USN/RN a/c up to speeds:

A6M5 vs.F4U-1D, up to 230mph equal.
A6M5 vs.F6F-5, same thing as with the Corsair.
A6M5 vs FM-2 Wildcat, equal up to 184mph.
A6M5 vs Seafire LIIc identical up to 181mph.

So it seems that with that graphic curves above, something is not correct and don't match the right thing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Kimura