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View Full Version : Weather and AIs ability to watch and shoot



ed-kingtiger
09-04-2004, 07:29 PM
SH1 game play concerning all weather conditions and AI responses have been unparalleled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.SH2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif had nothing to be desired as all the great graphics,bells and whistles stand for nothing when you have a contact on sounds its a morderate sea with fog so you cant see youre hand in front of your face but a merchant can blow holes in youre boat from 5km away,dont even think of surfacing in the middle of the convoy and making an attack run with torpes and all guns blazing only to evade the DDs asdic and look outs while on the surface allowing you to shadow rearm and reposition.SH1 was a realistic distance model for look outs both surface and air.SH2 had one setting fine clear skys and sea.My question for the DEV team, has this been rectified? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Also will the speed of the battle group, convoy reduce/incraese with weather change and cargo load?
Thanks to the DEV team for taking the time to get the little things right as well as the bells and whistles Im happy to see the Crew intergration GOOD JOB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ed-kingtiger
09-04-2004, 07:29 PM
SH1 game play concerning all weather conditions and AI responses have been unparalleled http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.SH2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif had nothing to be desired as all the great graphics,bells and whistles stand for nothing when you have a contact on sounds its a morderate sea with fog so you cant see youre hand in front of your face but a merchant can blow holes in youre boat from 5km away,dont even think of surfacing in the middle of the convoy and making an attack run with torpes and all guns blazing only to evade the DDs asdic and look outs while on the surface allowing you to shadow rearm and reposition.SH1 was a realistic distance model for look outs both surface and air.SH2 had one setting fine clear skys and sea.My question for the DEV team, has this been rectified? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Also will the speed of the battle group, convoy reduce/incraese with weather change and cargo load?
Thanks to the DEV team for taking the time to get the little things right as well as the bells and whistles Im happy to see the Crew intergration GOOD JOB. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

macker33
09-04-2004, 10:46 PM
sh2 was a lot better than sh1,maybe sh1 was good but you could see sonar on the map screen,shooting planes in sh2 was also a lot better.

i
llā¬ r
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ed-kingtiger
09-06-2004, 01:42 AM
Macker Im asking about AI spotting you on the surface through the complete range of weather conditions in SH1 there was different distances for differing conditions in SH2 it didnt matter if it was fog, rain,squals, or bright clear skys the AI still shot from the same distance asossiated with flat sea clear skys realistically totaly unrealistic.The Bismark managed to elude a cruiser with radar utilising those very weather conditions only to be reaquired by aircraft relaying her position as she re-appeared, both lost her for several hours on more than one occassion.
Yet a convoy of merches can see a sub through the fog well enough to shoot it from 5km? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gifIm not comparing the graphics
as both games are worlds apart and I agree shooting aircraft in SH2 was better than SH1 but didnt you find it a little desturbing that the very same aircraft could drop a bomb, depthcharge through the fog from 10000 feet for a direct hit when it couldnt even see you realisticly speaking remember radar was only an approximation they still needed visual. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifAll I know was that at subsim.com they covered this toppic over and over again reguarding SH2 and how to corect it, definately hinders enjoyment of a sim when details like this are missed leaving no room for ingenuity in game play.
Reguarding sonar at least if you were lucky enough to find a thermal layer it worked as advertised in SH1 and it changed with differing times of the day what worked at mid-day wasnt nesscesarly there at midnight when you really needed it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gifbut gave you variaty and the continued challenge of reacting both to and in youre enviroment to be better than youre foe.

Noline72
09-06-2004, 06:10 AM
somebody has those numbers btw (min. distance before spotted etc) for SH2
im always guessing or use the "if i can see them, they can see me" methode
thnx

ed-kingtiger
09-08-2004, 12:55 AM
Same same depending on the distance Noline but shouldnt the AI play by the same rules?They managed it in SH1 my hope is the Dev team can manage to achieve this in SH3 and complete what is certainly looking like a truly fantastic sim ocean/battle ground to imerse yourself in.The in-game video absolutely fantastic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif bad weather aewsome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif. Interaction with crew finaly technology and Devs expertise allows.Re introduction of Dynamic campain brillianthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gifbut it is still a sim and how the AI interact both with us and against us greatly influences the enjoyment level of all of the above because as I have learned from SH2 WHIPPING A DEAD HORSE wont make it run faster. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

AnalysisMan
09-09-2004, 10:55 AM
I've never had this problem in SHII. I've always actually first seen them. When I have a sound contact, I go below and get in position. If I loose them due to not seeing them through my periscope - tough - at least I survive for the next round.

BTW ed-kingtiger, you might want to use some proper grammer, like fullstops and commas?? It's absolute hell to read your posts.

ed-kingtiger
09-14-2004, 12:36 AM
Sorry about the grammer will try to do better.
To much time playing rugby during english as a youngster.

hauitsme
09-14-2004, 12:55 AM
Don't worry about the grammer! As long as you make 'sense' is what counts! It does help though. Spelling is hard for those that don't use the language often too. But the WORST are those that DO, but never cared!

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ed-kingtiger
09-17-2004, 01:24 AM
Thank you one and all.
The same can be said about history, "those that don`t read it are prone to repeating it".
To the devs;" may time allow you to complete SHIII".
Good job so far. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Redwine
09-17-2004, 09:09 AM
This is an important fact mentioned by ed-kingtiger...........

Dev Team has had mentioned attacks "a la Krestchmer" will be posible........

If we read the story tells of the Kapitan Krestschmer, we found he sail on surface at night very near of the ships and he was not detected.......

Some times he pass between the ships of two columns, separeated by bellow of 1 km, and perform shoots from 500 or 600 m on surface without be detected by ship gun operators......

He had sucessfull attacks too, from 3000 m and more......

Of course war ships has radar to avoid this so close aproach........

But the Gun operator can not see the sub with radar, he need his eyes......... radar can detect the sub, but was not effective to aim it.......

He can receive the range by radar but it is not so precise, he needs the telemeter info for range, and his eyes to stablish azimuth.....

The fact is, reading books, i note, submarines was very hard to detect.........

Fog, rain, night, heavy seas, was a good coverage for subs.........

If we watch the movie "Run Silent Run Deep", the japanese DDs start up cannon fire below 1800 yards, about 1600 m.

Cannon fire on sub from 5 or 6 km may be exagerated............


Good point of discusion.............

At wich distance at day , at night at fog , at rainy , a cannon operator was able to aim a sub in real life..........?

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Joe the Killerman
09-17-2004, 10:26 AM
Maybe sometimes they just shoot in the general direction of the ship, so they could make think any sub skipper they had been detected.

Das Panzerkunst!

ed-kingtiger
09-18-2004, 09:11 AM
Thank you Redwine exactly what I was asking about.

Surface attacks by subs against surface ships
was ordered by German high command as the accepted tactical practice of German sub comanders.

Reason 1:Winston Churchle master of disinformation reveals British distroyers equiped with asdic can detect submergered vessles up to 10km away rendering u boat tactics of WWI inefective.

2:Prior to the beginning of WWII Germany becomes the first country to use electronic survalance of another, sends Zepline equiped with Radar detection to determine if the Towers lining the English coastline are radar towers or Observation Towers.Big blunder, detection equipement on Zepline not set to correct frequency.
Hitler and Gurring informed that British towers not radar therefore Britian not radar capable.A la "Battle of Britian", one further week of bombing the towers and what few aircraft the British had left ..........
Very few British ASW Ships had radar.

3:Asdic does not detect sub on surface, rendering the escorts blind to a co-odinated surface attack.......What became known as the Wolfpack.
Later to be utilised by the American subs in the South Pacific theater even more efectively
as the Japanees did not have Radar until the very end.

4:Redwine: But the Gun operator can not see the sub with radar, he need his eyes.........
radar can detect the sub, but was not effective to aim it.......

He can receive the range by radar but it is not so precise, he needs the telemeter info for range, and his eyes to stablish azimuth.....

6:I can`t rember the exact details but its to do with torpedos running deeper than their actual setting when sub is submerged, something to do with pressure in the u-boat.
Problem was eleminated when u-baot was surfaced
as pressures were near equal?

5:The enviorement provides the cloak of stealth.

This is why Kapitan Krestschmer was successfull
in implementing the surface attack and the later veriable of surfacing the u boat in the middle of a convoy to utilise both torpedo and guns.

That my friends is why one of my concerns reguarding this simulation is the distance at day ,at dawn, at dusk, at night, at fullmoon, at moonless (pitch black), in fog, in rainy, a cannon operator was able to aim at a sub on the surface in real life and whether the AI will reflect that realism.
If this can be achieved before release, it creates with the dynamic campaign the platform for a very re-playable simulation.

Thank you once again Redwine.

Joe the killerman picture yourself a merchantman, one ship of a large convoy - destenation England.Your greatist fear second to not being la la aid when you arive is being detected and torpedoed by a German u-boat.
Before you shoot you must be able to see the u-boat?
How long has the u-boat seen you because you are aready reaching for a lifejacket.
If you cant see the u-boat and you shoot you`ve just told them where you are.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HeibgesU999
09-18-2004, 03:04 PM
In SH2 warships don't begin firing on you until you are 2500m away. Merchants don't really open up until you are under 2000m.

This is why engaging these ships with you're deckgun from beyond these ranges is serious cheating. Really serious cheating.

Prof.Wizard
09-18-2004, 03:41 PM
Indeed, it would be cool to have random range for AI to open fire. Some captains more trigger-happy (wasting ammo but hoping for a lucky shot) and others less (shooting the very last moment to conserve ammo and be precise)!

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ed-kingtiger
09-18-2004, 09:08 PM
Hi HeibgesU999
In SH2 warships don't begin firing on you until you are 2500m away. Merchants don't really open up until you are under 2000m.

What conditions was the sub opperating in?
sea state ( calm, moderate, stormy)
Time (dawn, early morning ......)
Weather (clear, foggy, raining ...)
Moon (full, half, cresent,no moon)

How close can you get on the surface in foggy conditions before that same merchant starts shooting?
600m at night?

HeibgesU999
This is why engaging these ships with you're deckgun from beyond these ranges is serious cheating. Really serious cheating http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif as well as a needless waste of ammoe.

Prof.Wizard, interesting twist. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

HeibgesU999
09-18-2004, 10:12 PM
This is at 100% realism.

I really never noticed it until I went on a patrol with calm conditions. I sighted single destroyers spawned from BASES at about 5nm.

I tried to get away from it, but whenever I changed course, it changed to a perfect pursuit angle. I was going 19kts and it was only going 21kts. So it followed me for a long time.

I started firing at 5500m to see if I could get it to change course so I could make my escape.

NO LUCK.

But I was fiddling around with something else getting ready to crash dive suddenly the escort was already destroyed. With 28 main gun rounds.

So I did some experimenting. Under perfect conditions escorts don't open up on you until you are about 2500m away.

Silent Hunter 1 actually had this exact same bug.

Joe the Killerman
09-19-2004, 10:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ed-kingtiger:
Joe the killerman picture yourself a merchantman, one ship of a large convoy - destenation England.Your greatist fear second to not being la la aid when you arive is being detected and torpedoed by a German u-boat.
Before you shoot you must be able to see the u-boat?
How long has the u-boat seen you because you are aready reaching for a lifejacket.
If you cant see the u-boat and you shoot you`ve just told them where you are.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I was thinking about a destroyer who begans to shoot to the general position of an U-Boat detected by radar. The radar operator gives continually info about the relative position of the sub, the guns shoot at this distance. Since shooting at about 3000 mts while sailing at 20 knots is not really acurate, the sub skipper should think that he has been discovered, being forced to submerge. At the moment that the sub dissapears from radar, you can rejoint the convoy.
The main problem of blind fire is that you can shoot a lonely ship of your side!

Das Panzerkunst!

ed-kingtiger
09-21-2004, 01:02 AM
HeibgesU999,
Thank you for you`re ranges in perfect conditions, I`m thinking this was midday?
Interesting Bug, concerning deckgun ranges for
sub.Never experienced this myself, just figured it not possible so didn`t try it in either SH1 or SHII, totaly unrealistic all the same. I`m pretty sure a Bug we don`t whish to see in SHIII?
I`m talking about 100% realism now concerning the merchant deckgun opperater and lookout ranges for spotting and firing at a sub on the surface in poor visabillity, sea state calm or moderate.
It was my finding that in SHII there was not a lot of oppertunity to get within 700-500m positioning you`re self midway between two merchant coloums, a la krestchmer on the surface(as promised by the game designers) without being shot at by all surounding vessels,some of which were 1500m I`m guessing as I could not get vissual confirmation of distance but figured they were in the next coloum over.
In SHI this was not only feezable but possible
to achieve because the AI could deferentciate between the changes in visability,the distance they could realistically see you.
Project Mertzer mod from what I understand adressed a number of other issues involved with game play both single and multi player but because of the magnitude of issues they were addressing, realistic visability changes were not addressed.
Although SHII had no pilot rescue to compare; In SH1 pilot rescue was even realistic reguarding visable range the pilot was spotted from the sub and DDs and changed acording to the weather restrictions and time day/night restrictions.
We all sound like 100% players my hope is the DEV team can produce a 100% playable sim, as this not only affects the campaign player but also the historical value of historical missions.
Thanks again for your findings. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ed-kingtiger
09-21-2004, 01:23 AM
Joe the Killerman,
Sorry thought you were refering to merchants,
thanks for clearing that up. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Another interesting twist along similer lines as Prof.Wizards post.
Would certainly add another dinamic ie,chase sub off allowing convoy to gain valuable seperation from potential persuit of sub, waisting prescious hunting hours. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

bertgang
09-27-2004, 06:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:

Of course war ships has radar to avoid this so close aproach........

But the Gun operator can not see the sub with radar, he need his eyes......... radar can detect the sub, but was not effective to aim it.......

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Matapan's battle British sunk some italian surface units without visual contact.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that the main problem for an effective long range firing, directed by radar, is the size of your target.

In AoD sometimes I was shooted from long distance at night, when a BB or a CC was in the convoy; I was missed, but forced to crash dive.

Redwine
09-27-2004, 11:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bertgang:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Redwine:

Of course war ships has radar to avoid this so close aproach........

But the Gun operator can not see the sub with radar, he need his eyes......... radar can detect the sub, but was not effective to aim it.......

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Matapan's battle British sunk some italian surface units without visual contact.

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that the main problem for an effective long range firing, directed by radar, is the size of your target.

In AoD sometimes I was shooted from long distance at night, when a BB or a CC was in the convoy; I was missed, but forced to crash dive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Agree with that........ but to use radar to stablish shooting distance to aim and hit a little silouete as a sub is so hard......... more hard even, if you have not a good visual contact to stablish a exact azimuth........