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RiesenSchnauzer
05-17-2004, 04:27 PM
For those who fly the King Cobra on a regular basis, is there a particular convergence setting for the cannon which you have found helps the most or does it even have an effect? Obviously a single cannon should shoot straight ahead and not "converge" with anything, but given this game's quirks I was wondering if any particular setting tended to increase accuracy.

RiesenSchnauzer
05-17-2004, 04:27 PM
For those who fly the King Cobra on a regular basis, is there a particular convergence setting for the cannon which you have found helps the most or does it even have an effect? Obviously a single cannon should shoot straight ahead and not "converge" with anything, but given this game's quirks I was wondering if any particular setting tended to increase accuracy.

p1ngu666
05-17-2004, 05:02 PM
100 is easiest
same for all big guns wid good volicity

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VW-IceFire
05-17-2004, 05:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RiesenSchnauzer:
For those who fly the King Cobra on a regular basis, is there a particular convergence setting for the cannon which you have found helps the most or does it even have an effect? Obviously a single cannon should shoot straight ahead and not "converge" with anything, but given this game's quirks I was wondering if any particular setting tended to increase accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When you have the centerline the gun is lobbed upto the specified convergence distance. So short of it and its still on the way up, far of it and its falling. Not very pronounced really but that 37mm is a tough one to aim.

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Bamatt
05-17-2004, 07:39 PM
Dont worry about convergence on a P-63. It has one cannon, it is going to go straight out of the nose. If you have it at 900 or 100, you'll still get the same result. Now, on a 190 for instance, that has multiple cannons, so 150 to 250 is is good convergence setting.

VMF-214_HaVoK
05-17-2004, 08:02 PM
I use 200 for everything http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
=S=

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AcesHigh_AVG
05-17-2004, 08:17 PM
I use 100, you have to think that 150 is longer than 1-1/2 football fields. Normally good pilots shoot at about 1 football field or less distance.

PBNA-Boosher
05-17-2004, 08:42 PM
Don't listen to what anyone says about their convergence. Everyone has their own special convergence range. You just have to find yours by experimenting. Zero in on that range by starting out wide, practicing on large friendly bombers. Once you're comfortable with that convergence, start aiming practice.

Note that it will usually be a weirder number than a flat 200. For example, mine is set to 211.

Bamatt
05-17-2004, 08:52 PM
RiesenSchnauzer, please just note that when you only have one cannon, the convergence setting doesn't matter. When you fire the cannon on the P-63, there isn't another cannon round out there for it to converge (intersect) with. You only need to worry about cannon convergence on planes that have more than one cannon.

Here is an example:

The Ki-84 has 1 cannon in each wing. If you have your cannon convergence set at 300, that means that each time you fire, those rounds are going to come together at 300 meters in front of you, as oppossed to just going straight.

For those that disagree, please refer to www.websters.com (http://www.websters.com) and look up the word "converge".


Good luck and happy hunting.

Vgamer_248th
05-17-2004, 09:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that you still need to worry about convergence even with only one cannon. In that case, it would be the distance at which the round converges with the center of the gunsight.

For example, lets say you set it to 200 meters, and you were 200 meters away from an aircraft and centered the sight on your target, it should hit. But if you were 250 meters away, then you would need to aim slightly higher because the rounds would be 200 meters away, at the center of the sight, but the aircraft is 250 meters away, at the center of the sight.

I hope that makes sense, if not i'm sure someone else can explain it better.

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clint-ruin
05-17-2004, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vgamer_248th:
I'm pretty sure that you still need to worry about convergence even with only one cannon. In that case, it would be the distance at which the round converges with the center of the gunsight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Correct.

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Bamatt
05-17-2004, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vgamer_248th:
I'm pretty sure that you still need to worry about convergence even with only one cannon. In that case, it would be the distance at which the round converges with the center of the gunsight.



No, you shouldnt. The round doesn't have anything to converge with, it's by itself out there. It is converged with the center of the gunsight as soon as its fired. Gunsight's are already adjusted to compensate for the distance between the barell and the sight. Such as fixed iron sights on a rifle.



Posted by Vgamer_248th

For example, lets say you set it to 200 meters, and you were 200 meters away from an aircraft and centered the sight on your target, it should hit. But if you were 250 meters away, then you would need to aim slightly higher because the rounds would be 200 meters away, at the center of the sight, but the aircraft is 250 meters away, at the center of the sight.



Incorrect, the round is going to start to lose velocity and its trajectory will fall the same way everytime. Of course, you need to adjust for this when firing, but it still wont matter what you have you convergence set at. Two completly different subjects.

RiesenSchnauzer
05-17-2004, 09:55 PM
Well now I am really confused! As I mentioned in my initial post I know that convergence is normally the distance at which two guns or cannons or rockets will meet out in front of the plane when fired and therefore it would seem that with a single, nose-mounted cannon convergence would not matter. However, I am wondering if in the game it still does make a difference for accuracy and all I am getting is contradictory opinions.

Does anybody have a way to prove that say 100 meters is more accurate than 1000 meters for close in dogfighting or can someone at least prove that it makes no difference at all? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Bamatt
05-17-2004, 09:57 PM
RiesenSchnauzer, no it shouldnt matter. But, if they actually wrote the code to where it does matter on a single cannon, then throw all aspects of logic and physics out of the window, lol.

clint-ruin
05-17-2004, 10:10 PM
[MAIN]
MAP Prokhorovka/load.ini
TIME 12.0
CloudType 0
CloudHeight 1000.0
player r0100
army 1
playerNum 0
[Wing]
r0100
[r0100]
Planes 1
Skill 1
Class air.P_63C
Fuel 100
weapons default
[r0100_Way]
TAKEOFF 37056.25 60015.10 0 0
NORMFLY 36121.56 60545.12 0.00 160.00
[NStationary]
1_Static vehicles.aeronautics.Aeronautics$ObservBalloon_30m 2 35977.66 60640.76 360.00 0.0
[Buildings]
[Bridge]
[House]


Set convergence to 1000.

Let the aircraft settle down before you fire.

Watch as you miss the balloon.

Now set convergence to 100.

Let the aircraft settle down before you fire.

Watch as you hit the balloon first shot.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

clint-ruin
05-17-2004, 10:19 PM
Thanks to gibbage for finding this.

http://www.lanpartyworld.com/smallwoy/p39iv6.JPG

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Bamatt
05-17-2004, 10:25 PM
And what does that have to do with convergence settings? You must have multiple objects in order for them to converge.

Istreliteli
05-17-2004, 10:46 PM
what happens if you set mg and cannon convergence differently? especially in a (king)cobra?

Ya sizhu i smotru chuzhoya neba iz chuzhoya okna, i ne vidyem ne odnoi znakom iz zvezdiy,ya hodil po vsyem dorogo iz tuda i suda, a vernusya i ne smog, razgredyet sledi, no isli yest karmane pachka sigaret nachat vsye ne tak uzh plocha na syevodnachniy dyen-Victor Tsoi, Kino (Gruppa Krovi)

CaptainGelo
05-17-2004, 10:55 PM
LOL at you Bamatt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif...

RissenSchauzer, if u like to shot when you'r close to the enemy, set it to 100-150..and if u like to shot from distance, set it to 350 or more........

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plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

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clint-ruin
05-17-2004, 11:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bamatt:
And what does that have to do with convergence settings? You must have multiple objects in order for them to converge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those silly people at Bell and Lockheed obviously had no idea what they were doing either.

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031a.html

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031e.html

http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_031i.html

If only you could build a time machine to show them the error of their ways!

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Athosd
05-17-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bamatt:
And what does that have to do with convergence settings? You must have multiple objects in order for them to converge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Convergence in this context really means the range at which the rounds cross the centre of the gunsight reticule (so covers both convergence and zeroing).
It effects both elevation and azimuth of the gun/s.
Even for one centre mounted gun you still need to zero it to a known range for best effect (also gives you an idea of where the rounds are going to go if you have to engage at a different range).

Cheers

Athos

RiesenSchnauzer
05-17-2004, 11:13 PM
According to the article in the first link vertical convergence would apply even if horizontal convergence does not.

My original question, however, has more to do with whether or not convergence is a functioning feature in the game for the P-63. Even if historically it would be adjusted, that doesn't mean it makes a difference in the game.

For now I will set it at 150, which is where I always keep my guns.

clint-ruin
05-17-2004, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RiesenSchnauzer:
My original question, however, has more to do with whether or not convergence is a functioning feature in the game for the P-63. Even if historically it would be adjusted, that doesn't mean it makes a difference in the game.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, I thought I posted a mission where you could see exactly for yourself which rounds would hit a target at a known range to adjust convergence of the cannon. It does indeed have an effect in the game. I am fairly certain that not every gun in every plane we have could be set from 100m to 1000m convergence as in FB though. Tended to be limited by how much space there was to adjust the gun inside the frame - you can see mention of that in the P-39 document.

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Resident_Jock
05-17-2004, 11:37 PM
I can attest that convergence on the P39/63 cannon does affect it. Back in the old IL2 days, I used to think the convergence didn't matter for centerlines, and left them at default. Once I saw a thread on these forums about how to better aim the difficult cannon, I set the convergence to 100 and my success rate went up immediately. The shells didn't arc nearly as much.

On some other aircraft though, like the P38, the opposite is favorable. I still set the 20mm to 100 meters, however the .50's I set to a full 1000 meters because it eliminated a good deal of the spread.

http://thecasualty.homestead.com/files/resident_siggy.jpg

Bamatt
05-18-2004, 12:08 AM
Well, as mentioned before, I cant believe they they made it that way, it shouldnt have any effect on it. But, if it does, then I will try it out and see what happens. I have my cannon convergence at 250m. On a centerline (109, 39, 63) I will change it to 100m to see what happens, and if it does improve, you all better hide, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gifP.

According to Resident_Jock, the cannon on the P-38 is exactly the opposite. If this is the case, I would love to hear the explanation on this one as well.

clint-ruin
05-18-2004, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bamatt:
According to Resident_Jock, the cannon on the P-38 is exactly the opposite. If this is the case, I would love to hear the explanation on this one as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's one way to do it. Longer convergence settings will put a higher arc in the trajectory - this can help in tight turns or high deflection shooting since at short distances you don't need to lead as much - the rounds 'jump' up just that little tiny amount more on the way.

For other weapons this can just be annoying. Especially those with comparatively low rates of fire. Setting shorter convergence for rifle cal rounds like the .303, 7.62, 7.92mm & etc will also give the appearance of increasing their hitting power - since they don't lose as much of their velocity over shorter distances.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

clint-ruin
05-18-2004, 12:33 AM
Should also mention that with the current dispersion model, the .50 cals will show the same dispersion at whatever convergence distance they're set to...

...so if you set it really long, they won't appear to spray out as much over distance.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

ElAurens
05-18-2004, 12:37 AM
Gentlemen.

You must remember that when sighting in weapons on real WW2 aircraft two things are adjusted.

1. convergence, that is, the point where fire from multiple guns "converge".

2. Elevation. That is, the distance from the aircraft where bullets will hit the point of aim.

The two settings are totally independant. In practice however it would be quite unwise to have them set at different ranges.

So...

For centerline weapons just think of "elevation" instead of "convergence" and you will understand how this setting works in game. (Although, it does set the elevation for wing mounted weapons as well...)

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Yellonet
05-18-2004, 04:45 AM
A certain projectile from a certain gun follows a certain flightpath, but generally speaking once out of the gun the projectile goes up and after a while the gravitation pulls it down. If the gun you're firing has a bullet trajectory so that the bullet goes up and then comes down to the same altitude as the gun when it's 250 meters away, and you have your sights on 250m then if your target is 400m away you have to aim above the target in order to hit, if the target is 250m away you would abviously aim directly at the target, but if your target is at say 100m then you would have to aim slightly below the target because if you aim at the target your bullet will rise above and miss that wich you wish to hit.


- Yellonet

Willthisnamedo
05-18-2004, 04:47 AM
I think people were arguing from different perspectives in this thread: Clint is spot on with respect to the game. 'Convergence' affects adjustment in both the horizontal and the vertical.

Bamatt is however technically correct in that, certainly as used in the RAF, convergence (aka harmonisation), refered to horizontal plane adjustment, while elevation was adjusted through boresighting and subsequent 'tweaking'.

When you think about it, in RL, a pilot will want the ability to adjust the 2 separately: a 190 pilot might choose to have wing cannon converging at 300M, in order to do significant damage to a target at that range or closer, but set their elevation to a more distant range so that the (relatively) slower cannon shells from these guns (with their more 'curved' trajectory) are hitting the 300 M point at the same 'height' as the mg rounds from the centreline guns on the cowl. (or vice versa, but you get the point)

It is also the case that every weapon manufactured has very slight differences, and will 'throw' its rounds to a fractionally different point from another 'identical' weapon, even if pointed at exactly the same spot and rigidly mounted. This individuality is not predictable - some may go 'high right', others 'low left'. Accordingly, any sensible weapon mount (plane, tank or boat) will have the ability to adjust the weapon's axis separately in both the horizontal and the vertical planes. If it doesn't, it's useless.

I suspect that this would have been particularly necessary with heavy weapons in light wooden/aluminium wings, as they were probably 'bent' unpredictably after each violent combat manoeuvre - so the guns should have been re-aligned after each flight, all other things being equal.

It appears that the game is making a slight simplification here: it's about flying, not being an armourer, after all! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

p1ngu666
05-18-2004, 06:21 AM
100 is best and it DOES effect the vertical
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maxim26
05-18-2004, 09:44 AM
Guys, who say that there is no need to adjust convergence with one cannon are forgetting about ballistic drop. It is very important for big cannons with heavy rounds and low muzzle velocity.
The round trevels by the bow trajectory and when you adjust comvergence you make sure that on the certain distance the round will hit the target at the same spot where the center of you sight is.

It is true even for smaller arms. For example, assault rifle AK-47 has adjustable sight and for long range accurate shots you need to make adjustments.

[This message was edited by maxim26 on Tue May 18 2004 at 08:53 AM.]