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JG53Frankyboy
02-25-2004, 04:32 AM
any datas available ?
any infos?

so far in know ~200 were delivered.

FB says was in use of Leningrad Defence and Baltic fleet LongRange Jabo.

JG53Frankyboy
02-25-2004, 04:32 AM
any datas available ?
any infos?

so far in know ~200 were delivered.

FB says was in use of Leningrad Defence and Baltic fleet LongRange Jabo.

Zen--
02-25-2004, 09:17 AM
Anythoughts on this one CrazyIvan?

I get the feeling for some reason that you are of Russian descent, so hopefully you might know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-
Formerly TX-Zen

Metallicaner
02-25-2004, 09:31 AM
I don't know anything about it, so therefore I wonder if the P-47's had previously been used or if they were brand new

chris455
02-25-2004, 09:40 AM
I have heard that some were used as inteceptors over Moscow-
A total of 203 were said to have been delivered to the USSR.
They were "ferried to Abaden, Iran, where they were turned over to Soviet pilots"
S!

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

ShVAK
02-25-2004, 09:58 AM
Other online sources state that 195 "D" models went to Russia, who (the Russians) apparently did not like them that much.

Further, the P-47 design is from the brainchild of (former) Russian engineers.

Capt._Tenneal
02-25-2004, 10:01 AM
I'm also interested in this lesser-known use of the P-47. I'd especially like to read a Russian pilot's evaluation of the Jug's pros and cons, and comparisons to more familiar US aircraft like the P-39 and P-40.

MandMs
02-25-2004, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShVAK:
Other online sources state that 195 "D" models went to Russia, who (the Russians) apparently did not like them that much.

Further, the P-47 design is from the brainchild of (former) Russian engineers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is good that American and British engineers designed the automotive plants in Russia and trucks so that there was all those trucks in WW2.



I eat the red ones last.

Maple_Tiger
02-25-2004, 10:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ShVAK:
Other online sources state that 195 "D" models went to Russia, who (the Russians) apparently did not like them that much.

Further, the P-47 design is from the brainchild of (former) Russian engineers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, they did not have a high opinion of the P-47.

But, that does not mean it was not a good aircraft.

The US did not like the P-39, lol i wonder why. The P-39 was not a very good aircraft above 20,000ft. But the Russions like the P-39, it was a very nice plane at low to mid altituded.

The P-47 was a very nice aircraft above 20,000ft. US pilots actualy liked the P-47. It was fast at high altitude, had good armour, good roll rate, good dive and could fly for hours.

It all depends on how you look at it. What was each plane desined to do and what was the plane being used for.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid78/pd6c878f0006c224805da6c9645408b41/fb291d3e.jpg

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Chuck_Older
02-25-2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:


The US did not like the P-39, lol i wonder why. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One reason was the pilots didn't like the placement of the engine or the extension shaft under the pilot's seat. The feeling was, in a hard or crash landing, the engine would slide forward over the pilot, or the extension shaft (right between the pilot's feet) would buckle and intrude into the cockpit. Both fears were unfounded. Another was the 37mm cannon itself, it carried evry little ammo and had a trajectory that isn't exactly flat. US pilots just didn't like the plane, on average.

*****************************
from the Hundred Years war to the Crimea, from the lance and the musket and the Roman spear, to all of the men who have stood with no fear, in the service of the King~ Clash

faustnik
02-25-2004, 10:40 AM
When US pilots first got the Jug they hated it too. Not much different from the Soviet reaction. It took the American former Spitfire pilots a while to discover the benefits of the big pig.

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Whatsmypassword
02-25-2004, 10:44 AM
The Red Army Air Force get 196 Thunderbolts P-47D-22-RE & P-47D-27-RE. The Russian pilots did not like it. They said that under 6.000 meters Thunderbolt was more like a flying heavy target rather than a fighter. It was probably intended to be a high altitude escort fighter but Russians did not have many heavy bombers to escort. So most Thunderbolts did not reach the front and served in the air defense units in Roumania, Hungary and 50 of them in the North fleet. In such way P-47 was not used in combat by Soviets.

DONB3397
02-25-2004, 10:57 AM
Russian pilots generally fought at 15,000 or lower...not the best place to dogfight in a P-47.

It's true that the 4th FG didn't like the T-Bolt in the beginning, having flown Spitfires for some time. Even later, when it's ruggedness had saved more than one pilot, Blakeslee and his crew were happy to transition to the P-51. On the other hand, the 56th FG, under Zemke and later Shilling, flew the P-47 (C-N) throughout the war and produced several of the highest scoring USAAF aces in the ETO.

Like most planes, this one did some things well...other things badly. Good pilots used its strengths -- altitude, dive, speed.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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ShVAK
02-25-2004, 11:09 AM
Whoa troops! Don't shoot the messenger. Just pointing out some historical data that I found online, which is the basis of this thread.

I fly the P-47 in this game almost exclusively because it is a brilliant aircraft.

JG53Frankyboy
02-25-2004, 12:07 PM
has anyone deliverie dates ?

when the jugs were delivered as lend and lease to the soviets ?

ShVAK
02-25-2004, 12:40 PM
Somewhere in my archive library lies the answer to the first part of your question. Until then, this is what was found regarding allied planes in russian service (WW2):

Fighter Aircraft
P-39 5707 (4719 reached the USSR)
P-40 2397
P-47 195
P-63 2397 (21 lost in transfer)
Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331
Total: 14982

Bomber and Attack Aircraft
A-20 2908
B-25 862
B-24 1
Hampden 23
Albemarle 14
Mosquito 1
Total 3809
Total Aircraft Delivered - 18,791
Total USSR Aircraft Production- 139,748

horseback
02-25-2004, 01:15 PM
Regarding the post about US pilots not liking the P-47 initially: only the 56th FG, of the first three operational 8th Fighter Command Groups to operate the P-47, had been trained and organized with the Jug. The 4thFG, formed from the three RAF "Eagle" Squadrons, had been operational in Spitfires for some time, and the 78th FG had formed up in the States in P-38s, and had their intended mounts stolen from them by the Lightning groups fighting in North Africa.

Being forced to use something in combat other than what you are used to is highly conducive to the time-honored military hobby of b!tching. The 78th FG got over its sulk, was fairly successful in Jugs, and was one of the last 8th AF Groups to convert to Mustangs. The 4th, on the other hand, never really reconciled themselves to the P-47, and gleefully discarded it for Mustangs at the earliest opportunity.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

JG53Frankyboy
02-27-2004, 12:12 PM
unfortunatly nobody seems to have some dates about the service dates in VVS service http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

well, i would like to ad two additionla questions to the original one here, without opening another topic:

1. when came the bubble top P-47 in US service
2. wich of the 3 P-47 in FB is performing the best and has the best handling ?

p1ngu666
02-27-2004, 12:31 PM
d10

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg

crazyivan1970
02-27-2004, 12:58 PM
Translated from airwar.ru. I`m not the best translator in the world, but this will give you an idea.

"Year 1944 and 1945. The press-service of firm Republic very much frequently published a symbolical picture of four fighters -47 "Thunderbolt" in colors of the Air Forces of USA, the Great Britain, Brazil and Soviet Union. But " group portrait " does not suffice only "Thunderbolt" with a cocarde of the French Air Forces. Within the second world war fighters -47 consist in arcenal of the Air Forces of five states.

By quantity(amount) received "Thunderbolt" Soviet Union takes the fourth place. William Green in the fundamental work " Warplanes of the Second World War " speaks about 203 sent of USA in USSR "Thunderbolt" of variants P-47D-22-RE and P-47D-27-RE, 196 planes, according to Green, has reached the addressee. The information from archive of the general Staff of the Air Forces of the Soviet Army differs not strongly - 190 fighters -47 is received in 1944 and five - in 1945. Probably, in the Soviet archive one more is not taken into account(discounted) plane - P-47D-10-RE factory number 42-75202 bought on collected American senators of means, this plane has received an own name " Knight of Pythias ". It(him) tested in middle of 1944 in scientific research institute of the Air Forces and ӹˆˆ.

"Thunderbolt" has disappointed soviet pilots - verifiers. One of best engineers - test pilots Mark Lazarevich Gallaj said about flight on -47:

" First minutes of flight I knew this is not a fighter! Steady, with comfortable spacious cockpit, convenient, but - not a fighter. "Thunderbolt" had not acceptable maneuverability in horizontal and it is especial in vertical . The plane slowly was dispersed - inertia of heavy aircraft had an effect. But "Thunderbolt" is wonderful for simple flight on a route without sharp maneuvers. It is not enough for a fighter ."

Not really different opinion about "Thunderbolt" from pilots had Soviet aviation ingineers. Not looking at the licked forms of a fuselage and apparent perfection of aerodynamics, factor CX at "Thunderbolt" appeared less than at main German fighters Bf. 109G and Fw-190A. Interest has caused not the plane, but turbocharger , the engine, the aviation equipment. The plane have disassembled "by bones" and have carefully studied in the Bureau of new engineering comission ( *€). Experts  have let out in Russian the full description on fighter -47. Engineers have made conclusions also concerning quality and methods of manufacturing of units and units that flew American fighter, having noted, that on a technological level Soviet aviation industry lags behind from American.

Front pilots of Air Force have not estimated highly a transatlantic miracle. The escort of heavy bombers in 1944 at Soviet Union was not the slightest need - all weight of war was born(carried) on itself with front aircraft. Air fights on the soviet-German front were conducted at heights below 6000 m, just at those heights where "TBOLT" more all resembled a flying target. On small heights -47 lost on all aspects to any Soviet or german fighter of a sample of 1944. The interesting fact - it is possible, that americans tried to improve manuevering qualities of "Soviet" "Thunderbolt", delivering them with already removed(taken off) external machine guns. Actually "Thunderbolt" repeated a history of soviet fighter MIG- 3 - outstanding at high alt and clumsy at the ground. This type of plane in Air Force during the war appeared dead.

Certainly, it is necessary to take into account, that the opinion of the Soviet pilots and engineers was generated on base of fighter P-47D-10-RE. On landlease planes P-47D-22-RE and -47D-27-RE were delivered equiped with more powerful engines R-2800-59. In the West the opinion is distributed, that Russian is simple not that machine tested, a P-47D-22 and -47D-27 arrived too late. All course of air war on East front speaks that heavy high-altitude fighters here did not get accustomed. Heavy appeared even Fw-190 - fighter, which at the front Western was famous for its maneuverability. In Red Army all high-altitude fighters were deployed in regiments of air defence. * ÷ ¨ such ³÷ ²ü has comprehended(overtaken) an MIG - 3, then "Spitfire" and finally "Thunderbolt". A unique place where appear they year earlier, "Thunderbolt" still could show itself, there was an aircraft of navy fleet.

Majority of "Thunderbolt" came to Soviet Union southern way in the extent of 26 000 kms (the way borrowed(occupied) 42 day) from NY in the Persian port Abadan. In Abadan planes collected under supervision of military representatives of Air Forces, then tested then pilots of 6-th regiment would fly "Thunderbolt" on a route Abadan - Tegeran-Kirovobad. In Kirovabad planes accepted 11-th spare bomber regiment. On rout in the extent of 1450 kms pilots it was necessary to overcome two mountain ridges. With intermediate landing(planting) in Teheran extent without landing flight up to Kirovobad over Iran was reduced up to 754 kms.

Pair fighters P-47D-30 from 397-th squadron of 368-th group in flight above Germany in the summer 1945. It red - yellow-red strips around of fuselages were are put after the termination(ending) of war with Germany for fast identification of "friendly" planes, it is obvious - "unfriendly" planes bore(carried) red stars. A strip on vertical plumage, antiglare a strip before a lantern of a cabin and a triangular strip onboard a fuselage - .yellow.

First fighters "Thunderbolt" of the profit on air station 11- ӡBAP August, 24, 1944. The order was given to this day on a 30th regiment, which stated that fighters P-47D-22-RE were accepted in service equipped with engines R-2800-59 with factory numbers 42-25611 and 42-26633. Large deliveries have begun hardly later. According to orders '' 36, 38 and 39 from December, 22, 1944 on arms of a part planes P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25541, 543-7, 552, 553, 555, 557, 559, 560-564, 566-568, 570, 574, 576-580, 582, 583, 586, 591, 594, 595, 600-610, 612, 614-617, 619-628, 631, 634, 636-638 - only 62 planes have acted(arrived). Then were accepted 47 fighters P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27015, 018, 019, 021, 0222, 025-029, 031-033, 037, 038, 042-044, 050, 052-055, 058, 061, 116, 117, 123, 129, 130-132, 134, 140, 141, 144, 149, 150, 154, 156, 157, 159, 160,162 and 163. Thus, 11-th ZBAP has received 111 "Thunderbolts".

In 1945 "Thunderbolts" arrived to an arrangement of 11-th ZBAP two parties(sets), April, 21 - two P-47D-27 release of a factory in Fermigdale (factory numbers 42-27136 and 42-27146) and April, 27 - four more similar fighters (factory numbers 42-25551, 587, 590 and 593).

All histories about delivery "Thunderbolt" to Soviet Union northern escorts through Murmansk or on route Alaska - Siberia are pure tale. Fighters -347 arrived to the USSR only southern way through Iran. Technical specialists of the Air Force finished (or in general changed) radio stations " Thunderbolt" under frequencies, used in the Soviet aircraft; respondents of the radar-tracking systems of recognition" the - another's " were removed. Recognition symbols on P-47D-22-RE were recoloured - red stars with white - red border were rendered. On intended for delivery in USSR P-47D-27-RE red stars were painted direct at a factory firm Republic. As a rule they were painted in the same locations and the same sizes, as recognition symbols of the Air Forces of USA, frequently a red star was painted in a white circle.

Into structure of 11-th 3BAP entered 4 squadrons on the basis of 1-st and 2-nd preparation bombing crews was conducted, on the basis of 3-rd and 4-th - preparation of pilots, mainly for planes P-39N/Q. In official documentation of 11-th 3BAP -47 is called "Thunderbolt". The quantity(amount) of pilots in regiments that were trained on "Thunderbolt" is insignificant: 12 pilots in 1944 and in 1945

Before the termination(ending) of war in Europe -47 and have not appeared on arms of front parts of Air Force. Almost all "Thunderbolt" were going in fighter regiments of Southwest district of air defence. This significant aviation group was generated December, 24, 1944 for covering means of communication of 1-st, 2-nd, 3-rd and 4-th Ukrainian fronts in Romania, Hungary and Czechoslovakia.

The first 11 "Thunderbolt" (ten P-47D-22-RE with factory numbers 42-25544, 547, 555, 557, 564, 570, 604, 610, 622 and 638, one P-47D-27-RE with ç ¨â¤ª¨ number 42-27026) the profit on located in 50 km to the south Kiev air station White Church May, 31, 1945. In June, 1945 fighters devided by regiments. June, 12 to armies arrived 18 more planes P-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-25543, 560, 563, 678, 593, 600, 601, 605, 606, 609, 611, 614617, 619, 621, 628, 633 and 634) and one P-47D-27-RE with factory number July, 42-27038.11 arrived the third party(set): 17 planes R-47D-22-RE (factory numbers 42-2552, 556,567,580,582, 583,691, 594,602,603, 607, 616, 624-627 and 631) and two P-47D-27-RE with factory numbers 42-27132 and 42-27154.

Fighters -47 not long left on arms of parts of Soviet air defence. According to the agreement about landlease the majority of planes have returned to Americans. " Thunderbolt" in air station Stryj (80 kms jugo-to the west of Lvov) where them also overate to representatives of USA. Americans have considered economically not acceptable to drag back bunch of becoming unnecessary fighters. Was accepted decision to result planes in unsuitable in flights condition, as the tool for such work tanks in the best way came. Destruction "Thunderbolt" has borrowed(occupied) a lot of time - all winter 1945-46 .. Vigilance of representatives of USA observing behind process, ¯²¿*¨* was exposed to temptations. The matter is that representatives of the West piously trusting in ideals free face to face have met an animal grin of injurious socialism and couldn`t handle temptations. Simple Soviet people have learned trustful as babies 100 % yank to drink everyone alkohol muck from an aviation facilities(economy) - vodka, moonshine and especially not whisky, and any liquor the chassis! Moreover, barbarians ate while drinking alcohol the Ukrainian bacon, which represented simply saulted pig fat - bacon. The nightmare consist that drank liquor the chassis and guzzled "bacon" directly open-air day after day! Poor Americans were involved in process so, that began to change "bacon" at local population for suitable details in facilities(economy) "Thunderbolt". As is known, the Ukrainian peasant better the Soviet ensign - at a crest any detail in a facilities(an economy) is useful. And here - aviation hours, ªá÷ª¨, jars from stainless still or aluminium, and what remarkable coils were made from pipelines! In general(common), business and friendship of peoples blossomed in air station Old without dependence from bitter colds. Thunderbolts were turned into kitchen tools

In aircraft of the Navy of the USSR fighter -47 has received 255-th IAP Air Forces North fleet. "Thunderbolt" in this regiment was not the first American plane, mastered by pilots. In 1943 of 255-th IAP got -39 "Aircobra" modification "N" and "Q". The Soviet sea pilots successfully fought on "Cobra" so July, 16, 1943 lieutenant V.A.Burmatov on P-39N has brought down Hans Dyobriha from II./JG-5, the expert with 65 victories. First P-47D-22-RE 255-th IAP has received October, 29, 1944

Command of sea aircraft has decided to recheck results fligth tests P-47D-10-RE in Aviation Institute. The aircraft of the Navy of the USSR had no own test base, that`s why have decided to test "Thunderbolt" using skilled front line fighters from 255-th IAP.

Test flights took place from October, 29 till November, 5, 1944, simultaneously it was investigated possiblity basings "Thunderbolt" in polar air stations. Despite of a deadline the program of tests looked rather sated:

- Rise and landing(planting) with concrete and ground strips with full loading;
- Definition of fighting radius combat with various to variants bomb loadings on an external suspension bracket: 2µӝ€-250 (on a bomb on underwing mount), 3µӝ€-250 (two bombs on underwing and one on underfusulage units of a suspension bracket), 2µӝ€-500;
- Bombing from a dive;
- Dive bombing with height 20-25 m on a distance of 150-170 m from the purpose.

Results of tests as a whole appeared favorable. The plane with two bombs ӝ€-250 normally flied up from air station Vaenga. Dump of bombs was made in a dive under a corner 50 hailstones from height of 3000 m, aiming at bombing occured on regular machine-gun gunsight. Bombing by three FAB-250 or to two FAB-500 have found possible(probable) to carry out only from horizontal flight. The endurance(quotation) from " the Report on tests of plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" below is given.

From the commander of the Air Forces of Council of Federation of the general - lieutenant of aircraft Preobrazhenski ' 08489 from November, 13, 1944
The official report to the Commander of the Air Forces of the Navy of the USSR
To marshal Zhavoronkovu I Report, that by results of flight test plane P-47D-22-RE " Thunderbolt" of serial construction by me the decision on arms of one squadron of 255-th IAP is accepted 14 planes " Thunderbolt".

The squadron will carry out the following problems(tasks):
1. Distant support Bombers
2. Horizontal and low-level bombing at the rate of bombing loadings up to 1000 kg on one plane
3. Attack of the ships escorts

The marshal of Larks has appended instructions on the document: " I Approve. Equip regiments and allocate 50 planes ".

In 255-th IAP "Thunderbolt" (basically P-47D-27-RE with bubble canopy) were maintained within one year after the termination(ending) of war, longer, than no matter where in the USSR. The way sea "Thunderbolt" finished almost the same as also them brothers from parts of air defence - in a ravine on the side of Vaengi under caterpillars(tracks) of tractors. "


I will not take responcibility for grammar and spelling errors http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 01:19 PM
Attention P-47 never served in VVS (RKKA Air Force)!!!

195 P-47 served in Air Defense Force (PVO) that were a separate from VVS force subordinated to the Defense Department (NrKom Oborony). It happened because Red Army VVS REJECTED P-47 as not suitable as they considered that they had better fighters.

Soviets got 190 P-47P-47 (series D-22-RE - D-27-RE) in 1944 and five in 1945. First P-47 arrived in 11 Reserve Bombers Air Regiment (11 ZBAP) on 24 August 1944. The main deliveries were made on December 22 1944. Last 4 P-47 arrived to 11 ZABP on 21 April 1945.

Btw it is interesting that P-47 was designed by two Russian air designers emigrated to USA.

MandMs
02-27-2004, 01:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:

Btw it is interesting that P-47 was designed by two Russian air designers emigrated to USA.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting that Russian aero engines had their beginnings in Western engines.

Interesting that Russian trucks had their origins in the West.

Interesting that Russian truck manufacturing plants were designed and built to Western plans.

Interesting that the BTs and T-34 tanks had their suspension originate in the USA.

What would be interesting is why Kartvali(born Georgia) and Seversky(born Russia) did not return to the USSR. Seversky did not emigrate to the USA, though Kartveli emigrated to the USA from France.



I eat the red ones last.

DONB3397
02-27-2004, 03:07 PM
Crazyivan, thanks for taking the time to translate that piece. It appears VVS pilots didn't think much of the T-bolt's maneuverability, but the Ukrainians found them useful.

I thought the Yanks were the innovative ones. Lol.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 05:43 PM
Quote:
What would be interesting is why Kartvali(born Georgia) and Seversky(born Russia) did not return to the USSR. Seversky did not emigrate to the USA, though Kartveli emigrated to the USA from France.
---------------------------------

Alexander Nikolaivich Prokofiev-Seversky, a Russian ace of World War One, aircraft designer & founder of Republic Aviation - born a Russian nobleman, he served in the Czarist naval air service, survived the Civil War, EMIGRATED to the United States, started a great aircraft company ...
See at http://www.acepilots.com/wwi/pio_seversky.html


Alexander Kartveli - one of the greatest aircraft engineers, who contributed to the Allied war efforts during World War II. Born in 1896 in Tbilisi, RUSSIA. Emigrated to France in 1919 then to the USA.
See at http://www.aviationboom.com/pioneers/alex_kartveli.shtml


Igor I. Sikorsky, the legendary aviation pioneer, will long be remembered as the man who gave the world its first practical helicopter and a long-range strategic bomber.
Born in Kiev, Russia, on May 25, 1889.
http://www.sikorskyarchives.com/siksky2.html

...
---------------------

The Soviet aviation industry absorbed the best of what was produced by Germans and Allies that helped them to create the best front fighters of World War II that won that war.
______________________

Donb3397 What do you mean under "but the Ukrainians found them useful". Ukraine was the part of the USSR (much destroyed by Nazis in WWII) Ukrainians did find any aircraft useful they fight along with Russians, Belorussians, Tatars and many other nations and ethinc group in the Eastern Front. P-47 were used in Air Defense Force of RKKA to protect the communications of Ukrainian Front.

tttiger
02-27-2004, 05:57 PM
Wow, Ivan, that was a lot of work.

Thanks! That's the first good account of the Jug in Riussia I've been able to find.

Aloha!

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."

rfa0
02-27-2004, 06:31 PM
It's strange that the Russians evaluated the P-47 to see what kind of low-altitude fighter it was. There was no need to evaluate it in that role, it was never designed for it. They should have evaluated it as a fighter-bomber. It would have been more logical to compare it to a Fw-190F8 than to a La-7. It may have even been able to replace the Il-2 for some roles.

rfa0

DONB3397
02-27-2004, 06:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
Donb3397 What do you mean under "but the Ukrainians found them useful". Ukraine was the part of the USSR (much destroyed by Nazis in WWII) Ukrainians did find any aircraft useful they fight along with Russians, Belorussians, Tatars and many other nations and ethinc group in the Eastern Front. P-47 were used in Air Defense Force of RKKA to protect the communications of Ukrainian Front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Looks like your password isn't the only thing you misplaced. You seem to have missed the point, as well.

In crazyivan's translation is a paragraph explaining that in the Ukrain, where some P-47s were waiting for destruction, people found unusual uses for airplane parts...fuel lines as stills, pans as cooking utensils, etc. That is what I was referring to. Which is not a criticism, but a compliment to the Ukrainians.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 07:30 PM
Donb3397: Your point is taken, tnx for explanation. Now I see that P-47s were really useful to some extent in the Eastern front.

Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rfa0:
It's strange that the Russians evaluated the P-47 to see what kind of low-altitude fighter it was. There was no need to evaluate it in that role, it was never designed for it. They should have evaluated it as a fighter-bomber. It would have been more logical to compare it to a Fw-190F8 than to a La-7. It may have even been able to replace the Il-2 for some roles.
rfa0<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nor they did not need "fighter-bomber" or not a fighter and a not bomber neither they need to escort strategic bombers. they had better fighters and a better ground attack plane Il-2 and by that time Soviets already had Il-10.

rfa0
02-27-2004, 08:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:
nor they did not need "fighter-bomber" or not a fighter and a not bomber neither they need to escort strategic bombers. they had better fighters and a better ground attack plane Il-2 and by that time Soviets already had Il-10.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yet they accepted 190 of them and evaluated them as low-altitude fighters when their performance was already well known.

As for a fighter-bomber being niether fighter nor bomber, that is mere sophistry. Fighter-bombers managed to shoot down many planes in WWII, and they could bomb some targets more efficiently than bombers.

I would like to see the P-47 evaluated by Il-2 pilots to see if they thought the Il-2 was better for ground attack. The P-47 was not armored for the kind of attack the Il-2 was doing, but it would have had a 200kph advantage in speed, which itself increases survivablity.

rfa0

MandMs
02-27-2004, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Whatsmypassword:

Alexander Nikolaivich Prokofiev-Seversky, a Russian ace of World War One, aircraft designer & founder of Republic Aviation - born a Russian nobleman, he served in the Czarist naval air service, survived the Civil War, EMIGRATED to the United States, started a great aircraft company <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seversky was in the USA as a military attache and did not return to the Soviet Union with the success of the Revolution. The question is, why did he not return?.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Alexander Kartveli - one of the greatest aircraft engineers, who contributed to the Allied war efforts during World War II. Born in 1896 in Tbilisi, RUSSIA. Emigrated to France in 1919 then to the USA.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Republic of Russia is not the Republic of Georgia. Again, why did he leave the Soviet Union?



I eat the red ones last.

Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 09:30 PM
Quote:
I would like to see the P-47 evaluated by Il-2 pilots to see if they thought the Il-2 was better for ground attack. The P-47 was not armored for the kind of attack the Il-2 was doing, but it would have had a 200kph advantage in speed, which itself increases survivablity.
------------------------------------------

I am afraid that no Il-2 pilot saw this plane. I think that they would prefer a T-34 with wings and props http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif rather than a manned F-1 that had even a bigger speed advantage.

P-39s were also relatviley heavy armoured fighters capable of carrying two bombs (in addition to rockets) but nobody thought to use them as a regular ground attack plane.

Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 09:40 PM
The Republic of Russia is not the Republic of Georgia. Again, why did he leave the Soviet Union?
______

You should remember that in 1896 when Kartaveli was born no Republic of Georgia existed at all. Tiflis (Tbilisi) was an administrative center of one of provinces of the Russian Empire. In 1917 the Empire ceased to exist and Georgia became a part of the Soviet Union in 1921.

Whatsmypassword
02-27-2004, 09:44 PM
if they did not escape the Bolshevik Russia they would have been executed.

Btw the WWII is a facinating example of the positive cooperation between Russia and USA/UK rather than competition in their attempt to save the world and free Europe and Germany from Nazis.

Cajun76
02-28-2004, 01:29 AM
Wow Ivan! Thanks for the time and effort. Something I found rather funny, if I'm interpreting the translation correctly (a recipe for disaster, I know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif):


Something to the effect that the "barbarians were drinking heavily and eating bacon" when talking about the destruction of P-47s being supervised by Americans. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif I'm not offended, I find it hilarious. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

Jumoschwanz
02-28-2004, 01:54 AM
Very quickly most were converted to inline liquid cooled engines as in the p-40 field mod. This greatly increased performace and ease of maintenance. (See Jane's WWII aircraft).

Cajun76
02-28-2004, 02:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jumoschwanz:
Very quickly most were converted to inline liquid cooled engines as in the p-40 field mod. This greatly increased performace and ease of maintenance. (See Jane's WWII aircraft).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif The only effort I know of to produce an inline powered Jug was this monstrocity. 16 cylinder Chrysler engine

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47-14.jpg

Good hunting,
Cajun76

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/Real_35a.gif
What if there were no hypothetical questions?

[This message was edited by Cajun76 on Sat February 28 2004 at 01:55 AM.]