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dieg777
08-06-2004, 06:06 AM
I fly the Me 109s offline F series and G2 . I fly B&Z but low down get cought in some turn fights. Is there somewhere I can get info on correct corner speed at various altitudes and other tips on getting best out of these planes?

I have a thrustmaster fox pro twist joystick -will probably be getting rudder pedals at end of year.
Thanks in advance

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

dieg777
08-06-2004, 06:06 AM
I fly the Me 109s offline F series and G2 . I fly B&Z but low down get cought in some turn fights. Is there somewhere I can get info on correct corner speed at various altitudes and other tips on getting best out of these planes?

I have a thrustmaster fox pro twist joystick -will probably be getting rudder pedals at end of year.
Thanks in advance

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

Rab03
08-06-2004, 06:44 AM
Practice:
Fly, fight, fly, fight,...
You can recognize near stall speed when you hear strange whooshing sound (in cockpit), and when you can see vapor trails at wingtips. Turn fight is something you can use at altitude-avoid it when flying on the deck, as it will bleed your energy. At altitude you can convert height to speed (energy). "Ideal turn" is one in which you don't lose your speed. Bf109 climbs best with speed of approx. 300+kmph.

General rules apply: fly fast and high and avoid turn fights when you can.

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

dieg777
08-06-2004, 08:38 AM
Thanks for info- I think Ive got a hold of the baisics -at least offline -just would like some hints and tips from experts to increase my effectiveness with this aircraft.

Ive not heard the whoosing noise when close to stall but have seen vapour trails when replaying tracks

Got this from another thread on turning times-http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/index.html-
someone must be reading my mind http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gifIll work with this but im still a bit unsure about difference between corner speed and turn performance- I took it that corner speed was the optimum to use to turn the aircraft effectively ?
Any further tips appreciated

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2004, 09:24 AM
You already described your problem, dieg:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I fly B&Z but low down get caught in some turn fights<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to develop better discipline and NOT get "caught" in turn fights. Unless it's just you and one other plane and you have the energy advantage (such that you can safely turn some and still have an advantage), you shouldn't be in that situation in the first place. Extend, climb, reset, dive in again. Repeat until enemy is dead. Resist temptation to turn, especially in multi-bogie fights. If you can't safely get a kill and climb out without having 3 enemy on your tail, you shouldn't be turning.

Rab03
08-06-2004, 10:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dieg777:
Ill work with this but im still a bit unsure about difference between corner speed and turn performance- I took it that corner speed was the optimum to use to turn the aircraft effectively ?
Any further tips appreciated
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope. You should use corner speed only when there's no other way to evade bandit on your six. Never (well, never, except 1 on 1) do not try to turn to get crosshair on bandit and end up turning near corner speed. If you miss, he will have an excellent opportunity to shoot you down, because you'll need much time to speed up again.

To cut the long story short, visit

http://www.il2flying.com/

If not directly applyable to Bf, at least you'll get an idea what to do, and what not to do (and how to fight nasty Lavochkins).

See my skins at
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/JohnnyRab-SIG.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=Rab&ts=1069857387&comefrom=credits)

[This message was edited by Rab03 on Fri August 06 2004 at 09:48 AM.]

dieg777
08-06-2004, 11:06 AM
Rab-thanks for help but now Im really confused according to il2flying.com "The fastest turning ability of the aircraft is achieved by the correct turning speed rather then by pulling on the stick hard and relying on flaps. For La and Yak that turning speed is about 300 km/h."
So is 300km/h not the corner speed for La and YAk ? or have I got this very wrong ? If so how do I determine best speed for Me109? is this 300Km/hr as per your first e-mail ?
So many questions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif but help appreciated

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

JG27_Aristo
08-06-2004, 11:37 AM
You need to develop better discipline and NOT get "caught" in turn fights http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

i happen to love getting caught in turn fights stig http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

crazyivan1970
08-06-2004, 11:46 AM
Aristo has no clue on how to B&Z http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...but god help you if he sucks you into turnfight http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif his turn rate is overmodeled and needs to be toned down. Actually F4 and G2 are very capable turnfighters... they can dance with VVS crates on almost even terms. Not talking about I-16 and other old birds... but Yaks, Laggs, Mig`s ...etc, P-39, Spitfires.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

JG7_Rall
08-06-2004, 11:53 AM
Like CI said, the F4 and G2 can turnfight. I like BnZ better myself but with those crappy MG's sometimes the cannon just isn't enough for a quick pass, so you gotta get in the saddle and blast away a bit more. Don't worry about memorzing turn rates for x speed, if you want to turn tight, just turn on the edge of a stall and use combat flaps if necessary. And for the Gustav series I would recommend learning manual PP so you can really get everything out of that engine.

Good luck, S!

Hutch

"Son, never ask a man if he is a fighter pilot. If he is, he'll let you know. If he isn't, don't embarrass him."
Badges!? We don't needs no stinkin' badges!

dieg777
08-06-2004, 01:14 PM
thanks for info- I started this thread cause I found that I could turn quickly with 109s whereas previously stuck religeously to B&Z amd going high. My high speed shooting is pretty crappy with them as well-when I fly hurrricanes in Extremeones BOB or Spits for fun then I find the gunsight and lead estimate easier-but Im sticking with 109s -I get that way and I know Ill get them to work http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif My main problem with B&Z is controlling closure and with my convergence at 200m I dont seem to have long to shoot when the bandit jinks around and I zoom past http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif. Guess its all down to more practice. Stiglr must be some shot or have great focus to resist temptation to turn that last wee bit to try to get the pipper on the bandit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif-I know you shouldnt burn E doing this but it is tempting to chase that bandit down and get caught up in the fighthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
anyway enough ramblings but please keep the tips coming I really want to nail this and maximise my turning when needed

GUNNER
Gunner get a decent signature
Gunner learn to fly
Gunner learn to shoot
Gunner not run out of bullets just as I get on his six

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2004, 02:09 PM
Yes, they can dogfight. But it's not their forte. I love a nasty scissors fight when I break my own rules and find myself in a tight corner. I can recall one this week on TX-3 server where I twisted and turned my way through about 5 kills, 2 of them augers, 3 by my own guns. Not the smartest way to make a living, but it beats dying.

My point is, you should not rely on turning for success. It's good to know how in case you DO have to fight your way out of a phonebooth, but I'd put the effort into perfecting B&Z passes and managing energy, myself.

mortoma
08-06-2004, 09:32 PM
You'll do better I think once you get your rudder pedals. I've always found I end up using lots of rudder to bring my guns to bear with most 109s. 109s are just like that, moreso than most other birds in the sim.

F19_Ob
08-07-2004, 09:27 AM
Turnfights or BnZ, both are required if u want to explore the limits of the 109.
High speed and altitude was what all pilots tried to gain whenever they could.
Sometimes u want speed and sometimes u want to bleed it quickly.

Regardless of aircraft, one of the most important skills will be to be able to maneuver on the edge, in turn and climb in slowest speeds possible......no I dont mean u to fly slow and turn all the time, but to know how to, especially in bad turning ones.


One of the strenghts of the 109 is good accelleration climb from low speeds. Many allied planes are slow in accelleration and flippy in slowspeed "scissoring".( hurricane is lazy for example).
Although many allied planes can outturn the 109 when going in one direction in a circle, many have the "flipping" problem when "scissoring"( early yaks and p39 for example). The 109 on the other hand is very stable and have gentle stall in slow speeds. The 109 ofcourse can flip too but recovers fast. A flip in the p40 or p39 normally needs more hight to recover, so a slowspeed scissor close to ground is better for the 109 than onewayturning.

With this said, I will add that BnZ related tactics are sound in all fast planes, but its also good if u know a trick or two when u for some reason will end up slow on the deck ( and U will), and not only be a victim.

The best thing with BnZ is that U can descide when to attack and when to go home, and be able to do it. Many BnZ'ers flew 40 or more missions without kills, but they survived because they could get away when it wasnt favorable.

A few thoughts http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif