PDA

View Full Version : Navigation and maps



Drebbel
04-21-2004, 08:10 AM
I hope we will get some real navigation tools.

So please don't just drop in a tool to make waypoints like was the case in all previous subsims.

I would like to have a correct sky (sun / stars) so I can do a navigational fix (for instance: measure sun height at noon) on them. Of course we would need a sextant for that and a correct clock (in SH2 no one could tell us which time system was used!)
Would also be great if we had a correct coastal map so we could do a fix on some coastal points (city/lighthouse/mountain/etcetera).

Also would like to have some tools to plan a route on the map and calculate fuel/food usage.

I sure hope we will get a map that looks like a decent seamap. Including a 'coastal pilot' booklet would be super as well, but that is probably asking too much !

You guys have any wishes concerning navigation/maps ?


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

Drebbel
04-21-2004, 08:10 AM
I hope we will get some real navigation tools.

So please don't just drop in a tool to make waypoints like was the case in all previous subsims.

I would like to have a correct sky (sun / stars) so I can do a navigational fix (for instance: measure sun height at noon) on them. Of course we would need a sextant for that and a correct clock (in SH2 no one could tell us which time system was used!)
Would also be great if we had a correct coastal map so we could do a fix on some coastal points (city/lighthouse/mountain/etcetera).

Also would like to have some tools to plan a route on the map and calculate fuel/food usage.

I sure hope we will get a map that looks like a decent seamap. Including a 'coastal pilot' booklet would be super as well, but that is probably asking too much !

You guys have any wishes concerning navigation/maps ?


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

FredFireFox
04-21-2004, 09:19 AM
As long as they're also gonna implement the map system used in SH2 that's ok with me, keep in mind that SH3 should also be able to be played by people who don't know as much about navigation as hardcore simmers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

HKLE
04-21-2004, 09:24 AM
I agree - but a more detailed map and coastal 3D landscape would be great. At least some mountains, where there are some, river ends and some more detail in port areas ?

FredFireFox
04-21-2004, 09:28 AM
that brings up another question: what will the ports and coast look like? I don't hope the ports will only be a simple sign on the map again. would be great to see some docks and buildings when entering a port...

CB..
04-21-2004, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FredFireFox:
As long as they're also gonna implement the map system used in SH2 that's ok with me, keep in mind that SH3 should also be able to be played by people who don't know as much about navigation as hardcore simmers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

understood i'm not a hard core simmer either BUT and here's the rub....we all understand map reading perhaps better than we might think,
if i am here
/looks at map/
and i want to get here
/looks at map again/
i need to go "this" way

where am i now?
/looks at map/
ok i'm closer than i was three "hours" ago
and so on ...

really we tend to forget what the sim s all about...it really isnt a quick play game ..(no disrespect to instant action games here; we all love them )
all i want is a nicely drawn map as close to the genune WW2 maps as possible for even greater interest (and historical eye candy as well) no icons or contact reports sonar beams anything in fact that detracts from the illusion that this is a genuine ww2 map,
there is just so much time available in the gameplay that to remove responibilty for every relevant in game task from the player and place them in the AI's hands is daft to say the least...even at extremely high time excell it might take me 15 minutes to reach my destination
and quiet frankly i would like something interesting/relevant to do during that time..i might even gain an interest in navigation and so on thru the game etc..
plot yur contact reports from the radio messages ...just drop a marker on the map and so on compare old contacts with newer ones work out possible routes danger areas etc , if im running at lower time excell i have literally HOURS to pass.....it's madness to have the AI do everything for me, it's just not that sort of gameplay...surely i dunno...and it deprives the player of real immersion in the game by locking himout of the most interesting performance related tasks...it's every bit as important a realism option as manual tdc or accurate torpedo speeds/ranges etc

tjclegg
04-21-2004, 10:45 AM
I agree CD.., having a non-digital map would involve the gamer more during the sailing periods. Having customisable levels of detail would be a way to cater for the instant gamers, but needing to do some detailed ploting of course and contacts would add another level to the game.

Having it the way CB.. sugested wouldn't need a yachtman's certificate or years of navy experience under your belt to use the maps.

suuune
04-21-2004, 08:27 PM
I agree.They could have different levels of navigation difficulty.From hard ala Drebbels idea to totally AI controlled with a GPS dot on screen.Personally i would prefer Drebbels idea,sometimes i play sims to learn something new.

Drebbel
04-22-2004, 02:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tjclegg:
Having it the way CB.. sugested wouldn't need a yachtman's certificate or years of navy experience under your belt to use the maps.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CB ? What did CB suggest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Suuune is right. Of course my proposals also includes a typical click and set waypoint system for non hardcore players. Just like some people use automatic TDC and others use manual TDC, just like some people use manual gun and others use auto gun.

So no yachtsman certificate needed at all !


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

CB..
04-22-2004, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
CB ? What did CB suggest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know what i might suggest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Drebbel
04-22-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CB..:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
CB ? What did CB suggest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i know what i might suggest http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahaha, I totally missed your previous post in this thread, sorry mate :-)


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

CB..
04-22-2004, 06:49 AM
no worries, keep the ideas coming http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bowfin
05-02-2004, 12:43 PM
maybe we could get UBI to hire Drebbel !
thats a great idea about navigation
maybe just maybe you could get lost
bad weather or a mistake (by you)
we need more to do. it would help to
place you in the era,you could still
have the normal nav tool but manual
navigation would be a hugh plus!

Leif...
05-02-2004, 01:43 PM
Werenâ't normally lighthouses shut off, just as city lights where blackened out? I remember reading that Hardeggen where surprised to find the American coastline to be fully lit up by city lights and lighthouses just as in peacetime when he first arrived during operation Drumbeat. So I take it that with the exception of America the coastline would be pretty dark. Probably takes some skill to navigate correctly.

Leif...

ParaB
05-02-2004, 03:25 PM
Yup. It happened more than once that an U-boat found out that the coast they were approaching wasn't the french one but the british!

Quite easy to get lost in bad weather when you can't get a fix on stars for days, strong currents are involved and you spend most of the time underwater as in the later war.

HeibgesU999
05-06-2004, 10:43 PM
maybe your position can be plotted on the map in your navigators handwriting

Redwine
05-07-2004, 03:05 PM
Agree with Drebbel's idea.......

Game must to have a easy auto TDC and navigation for begginers or for hardcore users who become tired and just look for a rest mission.......

But must to have a totally manual use of the TDC, for hardcore use, and hardcore navigation will be just GREAT !

To use, a clock and noon sun position to determine longitude, and to use sun or stars elevation to determine latitude will be just....GREAT !

When you was under a full cloud cover weather ..... you are done, you must to estimate your position.......

( I remember Vikings had used a polarized cristal to navigate under cloud coverd sky..... they can determine the sun elevation and noon to latitude navigation under covered sky......... if they was able to do it 1200 years ago...... why we not ? )

ADF Radio Selection to radio triangulation for coastal navigation...... more GREAT EVEN !

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

Access_granted
05-08-2004, 02:19 AM
Manual positionning on the map should be breat, but is it good for the gameplay ?
Maybe you determine your position, and spot it on the map and the crew extrapolate for a few days... and you start again.
Or you ask your nav officer to do it for you.

Anyway, the map should be better than the SH2 map, with realistic colors, and grid, and depth , and harbors and lighthouses written on it, with real symbols.

Concerning tides calculations, geo/magnetic North declination, I think, it is too complicated...

Getting lost in the fog, is a very good idea!

SailorSteve
05-08-2004, 07:35 AM
I will only speak to the colors on the SHII map. The Kriegsmarine maps were all a brownish-grey, including the water.

______________________________
Always keep you clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark.

HeibgesU999
05-08-2004, 11:08 AM
the charts should become damper and slowly deteriorate as the patrol goes on.

Redwine
05-08-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Access_granted:
Manual positionning on the map should be breat, but is it good for the gameplay ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi.......Access

Easy mode must to be present too ..........

We are not claiming for a "only hardcore mode", if you consider so difficoult you can have an "inertial navigation system" as in SH2.

Both, an easy mode, and a hardcore mode will be welcome...........

Regards, Red.

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

Kriegspiel
05-09-2004, 10:39 PM
Funny you bring this up because I was thinking the very same thing when struggling with SH2 the other day. I sure would like some navigation tools to be able to plot my enemies course, and figure where I need to be to set up a good ambush.

I can't agree with you MORE Drebbel--we need GPS! lol I mean a sextant and good charts/sun/moon/stars etc... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Capt.LoneRanger
05-10-2004, 06:36 AM
It could be done. Just look at IL2FB. You can simply switch off the icons on the map. Now, with a detailed map, data about weather and some radio signals that can easily be located by a simple tool, similar to the sonar, this would be be sufficient to triangulate your position or calculate where you are and where you are going.
If you don't want to, simply use map icons, if you want it full real, this should be realitvely easy to implement.

Being trained in navigation and radar operation, this would definately be a big motivation for me and just looking at the navigational features in M$ FS2004 and the whole series, it can be done and a great factor for realism.

Another example could be drawn from 688AttackSub. Just have an AI navigator, that calculates course and position, but makes mistakes or takes into account, that the longer you stay at sea, the more incorrect your position could be calculated. You had to come into radio or visible range to the land to reinsure position.

All this seems possible with little effort, but a hughe boost in terms of realism!

greets
Capt.LoneRanger

http://www.imageshack.us/img1/7182/1703abcdefg.gif

Redwine
05-10-2004, 09:09 AM
Will be so great to be able to use real age navigtion methods........

Clock, sun, stars and ADF naviagation........ we can have a map where we need to stablish our position with a mark one ot two times at day...... in example one at noon and one at night.......

Drebbel's idea is just wornderful...........

______________________________
.
http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.