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View Full Version : What happened to the ZEROS?



KIMURA
05-21-2004, 06:35 AM
What's that? With ACES it became harder on rolls and a wider turning radius at lower speed. But now, with the so named patch, the Zero is just a joke. Sorry guys who made the patch and worked on. U have to search your sources again and do some better work.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kimura

KIMURA
05-21-2004, 06:35 AM
What's that? With ACES it became harder on rolls and a wider turning radius at lower speed. But now, with the so named patch, the Zero is just a joke. Sorry guys who made the patch and worked on. U have to search your sources again and do some better work.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kimura

EFG_Zeb
05-21-2004, 06:47 AM
We still don't know what happened tou YOUR zero...Cause "just a joke" isn't telling us anything...Talk about sources... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

"See, Decide, Attack, Reverse or Coffee Break" E.H.

Kannaksen_hanu
05-21-2004, 07:29 AM
There was a major bug earlier; they were too hard to hit. You can check any source; IRL they were easy to hit. Even claimed confirmed kills *cough* proves it. Majority of people consider it is much better now as they dont turn or roll as well anymore. Zero still has "absolute air superiority" in those years. Nothing can take that away from our memories.

But hey, if it gives you comfort, at least they are now fragile. And when combined to increased hitting power of guns and the good spread of .50 cal's there is nothing to worry about. Your Zero will do its part just fine. The turkey-shoot part.

PikeBishop
05-21-2004, 08:12 AM
Hello all,
I must admit that the Zero is one of my testing beds for this game and I will probably investigate this tonight.
I was hoping that the A6M5 has a much improved roll rate.
With the A6M2 I think there may be a problem emerging and that is the subtle difference between the idea's of strength and tolerance, and how to translate that into battle damage in the game.
We need to get a balance here because any descriptions of how much damage a specific machine can take before failure or explosion are all anecdotal.
When AEP came out the A6M2 was incredibly fragile such that as soon as the firing button was pressed (in a P40) as the first rounds hit it just went BOOM! This kept happening so I thought that in general terms this was a bit much and might be corrected in the next patch.
Now I would like to use a little anecdotal evidence of my own which is :
1. S. Saki in his book says that the Zero was a strongly built aircraft at the time of its introduction, but the big weakness was fire and no ss fuel tanks. Also no armour was detrimental.
2. We now have a few early war biplanes which....correct me if I am wrong....might have a similar damage profile because of the lighter construction........but I have not seen any of it yet??
They seem to be much more robust.
Tell me how you feel about this.
Now the only other way the A6M2 can score Browny points is in its agility......i.e. make it harder to hit, otherwise, as a combat aircraft it has become somewhat ineffective.
I appreciate that just about every flight simmer knows about the strengths and weaknesses of the Zero so it can never have the impact that it had following the days of Pearl Harbour, but I am sure that it did not explode quite so easily....unless it was fired on by a P47 or it caught fire. Maybe I'm just to good a shot "sigh"
Anyway I will do a few tests tonight.

MetalG.
05-21-2004, 08:25 AM
Unfortunately roll rates have not been touched as far as I know.
Also the first impression of the 2.01 A6M5 Zero is that it's maneuverability, for some weird and unknown reason, has actually been cut back. Maybe someone can confirm this? you can barely do anything with the Zero now IMO.

Willey
05-21-2004, 11:28 AM
They stall even more now...

Giganoni
05-21-2004, 11:29 AM
Hmm, does the Zero seem harder to stall in some instances? I think the term is snap stall. sugaki was complaining awhile back about it and Luthier said it was already fixed in the patch..patch is out..but I can't tell.

MetalG.
05-21-2004, 05:08 PM
Hmm to me it seems the stalling got worse. Turn rate also seems to have been reduced a lot (why?), this is on the A6M5a by the way, didn't try the A6M2 much yet.

Bull_dog_
05-21-2004, 05:57 PM
I hadn't flown the zeroes much but I thought they were pretty accurate except for the high speed handling so it suprises me they were toned down.... I remember reading a thread on some of the inaccuracies of the model and it seemed on the up and up, but if the low speed qualities of the zero has been diminished that would be unfortunate...high speed (250mph+) yes but not slow speed fighting

Fennec_P
05-21-2004, 06:56 PM
My impression is that the turn and stallability is about the same as it was before. If the 5a is any worse, it is a very small difference. Maybe it is heavier than the M2 version.

The only big thing that seemed to be wrong in the AEP Zero was the low speed roll rate. That has definitely been fixed in the patch, they roll much better now. The turn combined with the new roll makes it much more pleasant, and deadlier, in a turn fight.

MAstaKFC
05-21-2004, 07:28 PM
I'm also under the impression that things are pretty much the same. Fast speeds=Bad handling, slower speeds=excellent turning. I'm not quite sure about the roll rate though. I heard the roll rate was nothing special, but the AEP 2.01 Zero roll rate seems to be below average.

ZG77_Nagual
05-21-2004, 09:27 PM
Zeros seem fine to me - roll above about 250mph was abysmall hystorically.

brasil66
05-21-2004, 10:09 PM
Kimura,

I suggest you remove Il2 from your computer and then develop and implement your very own flight sim, you big ole, complainin jerk.

VW-IceFire
05-21-2004, 10:24 PM
So with all of the negative comments about the Zero's...I took a couple for a spin.

My general impressions fit within the realm of what I've read.

First that all Zero's were essentially slow speed high manuverability fighters. The A6M2 is the worst roll rate of any fighter we have and generally on par with the Hawker Typhoon in NACA tests (which wasn't a great roller either). The M2's turn rate is excellent. The A6M5 I've noticed has a better slow speed roll rate than before and a bit better than the A6M2 (subjectively only, no timed tests)...its turn rate is a bit lower in my general impressions. Again, this seems consistent as the A6M5 was noted to be slightly less manuverable than earlier versions due to increased weight.

So it doesn't seem too wrong...it was never a fantastic fighter except that it could turn really well and if you take a P-40 or a P-39N and put them into turn fights with a Zero...the Zero will almost always win.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

PikeBishop
05-22-2004, 03:24 AM
Please note that the NACA roll rate chart is for the A6M2 model 21 not the A6M3 and A6M5 which were a lot better and I'm still not sure that the A6M5 has been improved at all.....I've lost my stopwatch at the moment.

SLP

Prof.Wizard
05-22-2004, 03:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brasil66:
Kimura,

I suggest you remove Il2 from your computer and then develop and implement your very own flight sim, you big ole, complainin jerk.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Stop going around from thread to thread insulting people you don't agree with. To my eyes, you're on the same level (if not worse) to the whiners.

Constructive comments only, what you do is not helping anyone. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

-----------------------------
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/WizardSig.gif
Me-163's HWK 109-509 Rocket Engine
http://www.mihailidis.com/images/HWK109509.jpg

Flash_ram
05-22-2004, 07:17 AM
Didn't tested the zeros yet but if they lost the single manv they had, the good turnrate, then zero is no more than ****...
To hard to hit? well it was perfect to be to hard to hit, you know how the Yaks are for Luftvafe... DId you knew that the single shot of any 20mm cannon the Zero make BOM? now if they are easier to hit, then if you dont want to die just bail out after takeoff...

VW-IceFire
05-22-2004, 08:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PikeBishop:
Please note that the NACA roll rate chart is for the A6M2 model 21 not the A6M3 and A6M5 which were a lot better and I'm still not sure that the A6M5 has been improved at all.....I've lost my stopwatch at the moment.

SLP<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes I do know that and I did say that I noticed that the A6M5 rolls better than the A6M2 in a subjective test that I did.

I'm still not sure about how anyone is having trouble turning the Zero. I'll go and test more but it seems to turn very nicely...VERY nicely.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

MAstaKFC
05-22-2004, 08:19 AM
Did some more subjective testing too. A6M5 seems ok at rolling, as long as you don't go too fast. A6M2 is a bit worse at rolling than the M5. All in all, looks ok to me.
Turnrates are still excellent I think, no complaints there.

Tvrdi
05-22-2004, 09:08 AM
i was flying zero often before patch 2.1....to be honest it was f arcade (like La5 used to be before)...so its simple...when u get used on one fantastic arcadic plane, its hard to say "ok now it is tuned down as it should be at first" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ajafoofoo
05-22-2004, 09:33 AM
As long as a yak3 can't outturn the zero at low speed, then I say the zero is about right.

VMF513_Anubis
05-23-2004, 04:12 PM
I'd like to know what the Japanese planes are doing in this game in the first place. If you consult you map locations. This game takes place in Germany, Normandy France, Gulf of Finland and the Russian Eastern Front. To my knoledge Japan did NOT operate aircraft in this part of the WWII theator.

MEGILE
05-23-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This game takes place in Germany, Normandy France, Gulf of Finland and the Russian Eastern Front <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*cough online8islands *cough Japan single missions *cough
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Giganoni
05-23-2004, 09:56 PM
I know, what is wrong with this sim...including Japanese planes. They are ruining the purity of this sim! I mean please! They are not like the Germans..they never fought Russia, (Nomonhan incident 1939, Manchuria 1945) nor the British (Malaya, burma, carrier actions off Sumatra and Java, etc etc). They didn't fight the less known countires like the Netherlands (Dutch East Indies anyone? Which is Java and Sumatra as well) all that fought them were the Americans (and Australians, etc etc). It really sucks when I fly a VVS offline campaign to have Ki-84s flying over Berlin (Oh wait...they don't. In fact there are no Japanese planes in any of the stock campaigns. Extreme_One made a nice Japanese one though, even if that dang floatplane with the ace kept crashing into the trees.) Clearly Japanese planes are ruining this sim. Now they even make the Zero more historically accurate and even more fun to fly in, how dare they!

LeadSpitter_
05-24-2004, 02:31 AM
the zero is amazing and the most stable aircraft in the game its a p40 and p38j killer without a doubt.

Learn the facts kimura, your the one who said the ki84ic is the only realistic plane in 2.0

Look at charts of the Roll rate of the zeke, best turning aircraft doesnt mean it was the fastest roller but had the best elevator effectiveness which is does in fb, and in 2.01 its even better they reduced the p40s elevator effect and made it stall very easy.

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

arjisme
05-24-2004, 08:49 AM
I was watching the History channel this weekend and there was a show about the Corsair. They were talking to some veteran pilots from that time and one of them said that the Zero did not turn well to the right, but was a very good turner to the left (yeah, I know, it's just an anecdote). I didn't get a chance to investigate this in the game, but does anyone know if this is true and if it is modeled this way?