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JFT117
05-21-2004, 06:20 PM
Okay... this thread goes along with what fchall said in this thread's counterpart in the non-spoiler area.

Okay.. to clarify the way I see how fchall's theory could work.

Say that at the time of Myst, there are two red books (this same stuff goes for blue books), one descriptive, that links to a prison age, and one that is a linking book to the prison age. Now the linking book is actually a trap book. As seen from the trap book in Riven to get Gehn, a trap book does NOT have to be a descriptive book.

Now I heard it somewhere else, about the concept that if you destroy the trap book, the person trapped would link to the age the book was originally destined for.

So, the red and blue books on Myst, in the original game, were the trap/linking books. When Atrus destroys the linkingbooks, Sirrus and Achenar finish their link to the prison ages. Atrus had the descriptive books elsewhere for safe keeping (Atrus had been the one to trap Sirrus and Achenar in the books... somehow... directly or indirectly, so he would have planned accordingly). So, both the events of Myst, and Myst 4 could happen like that, and not be in conflict with each other.

Dancing around linking theory... hehe...

cheers to fchall... originator of this theory... which I shoulda thought of earlier... *smacks self*

www.truescape.tk (http://www.truescape.tk)

JFT117
05-21-2004, 06:20 PM
Okay... this thread goes along with what fchall said in this thread's counterpart in the non-spoiler area.

Okay.. to clarify the way I see how fchall's theory could work.

Say that at the time of Myst, there are two red books (this same stuff goes for blue books), one descriptive, that links to a prison age, and one that is a linking book to the prison age. Now the linking book is actually a trap book. As seen from the trap book in Riven to get Gehn, a trap book does NOT have to be a descriptive book.

Now I heard it somewhere else, about the concept that if you destroy the trap book, the person trapped would link to the age the book was originally destined for.

So, the red and blue books on Myst, in the original game, were the trap/linking books. When Atrus destroys the linkingbooks, Sirrus and Achenar finish their link to the prison ages. Atrus had the descriptive books elsewhere for safe keeping (Atrus had been the one to trap Sirrus and Achenar in the books... somehow... directly or indirectly, so he would have planned accordingly). So, both the events of Myst, and Myst 4 could happen like that, and not be in conflict with each other.

Dancing around linking theory... hehe...

cheers to fchall... originator of this theory... which I shoulda thought of earlier... *smacks self*

www.truescape.tk (http://www.truescape.tk)

earthangell
05-21-2004, 08:28 PM
i like this theory!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

JustBrett
05-22-2004, 06:51 AM
But, if the descriptive book was for a prison Age, then why fix the linking book to trap the user in some void? Why not just use a regular linking book, since it would go to a prison anyway? That would certainly be less cruel to the prisoner than leaving him floating in the dark, and I don't think Atrus is a cruel man.

*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

earthangell
05-22-2004, 03:56 PM
maybe he got trapped by his sons before he could complete the process. maybe Sirrus and Achenar thought the books led to new ages they could control, flipped a coin to see which one got which book, and linked. then we showed up, and the rest is history!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
05-22-2004, 06:52 PM
Good theory earthangell, I never actually considered how Atrus and the brothers were all trapped that the same time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I like fchall's fall-through theory, but surely, destroying a trap book could not actually fix it could it? Wouldn't that require the links to be physically rewritten?

Though it does make sense that the original descriptive books (trailer ones?) now link to them.

Maybe as earthangell proposed, Atrus intended to finished what he started when he was free, i.e. burn the books? And how did he know that the borthers had trapped themselves? Ow, my head hurts http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Tweek
05-22-2004, 08:41 PM
Well of course a trap book doesnt have to be a Descriptive book..theres no such thing as a trap book but there is such a thing as a Prison Age.

As long as theres no linking books off of an age it doesnt matter how you get someone on to it.

Tweek

http://www.agesofmyst.net/temp/aombnr.jpg (http://www.agesofmyst.net)

earthangell
05-22-2004, 11:19 PM
if there's no such thing as a trap book, then what the heck did we use in RIVEN against Ghen?????? (grrrr....i need my game back; my memory is starting to really suck!!)

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
05-23-2004, 12:57 AM
I think the books used to trap Sirrus, Achenar and Gehn are Trap Books, that is they are purposely broken linking books used to trap the user in an intermediate void, while a Prison Book would describe an age with no way to link out (i.e. Riven)

In those terms any linking (or descriptive) book becomes a Prison Book if one enters without a linking book home. A Trap Book on the other hand decieves the user into believing that it will link them to another age, but with rather unplesant consequences http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

nmzero
05-23-2004, 04:00 AM
I'm fairly new to this Myst thing, in fact I only played it for the first time around 4 months back.

Not sure if I'm remembering correctly, but I think Sirrus and Achenar trapped Atrus on K'veer before going through the books, this would explain why they are trapped at the same time.

As far as the trap books/prison books etc go, I'd like to think that because of the missing pages, the descriptive panel is incomplete, hence the static around each of the brothers. Perhaps I'm not remembering correctly, (and I've only played Masterpiece edition), but when you complete one of the brothers books, you don't see them clearly, the next scene starts off with you inside the book.

The one true answer is probably that Cyan may have been unaware of the global phenomenon they were creating, and didn't think they'd need to flesh this much information out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


---------
all ping.

jakek101
05-23-2004, 02:37 PM
I have a far simpler theory that I've been working off of: Atrus couldn't destroy the red and blue books. They were his sons. The burn marks were just there to appease you, and he took the books back to D'ni with him in that big robe.

matt myat
05-23-2004, 05:18 PM
I think you're probably right jakek, after all if the books were burnt there, wouldn't there be ashes or at least charred books? (like most of the other books in the library)

Tweek
05-23-2004, 07:32 PM
ok simply put

Trap Books = Artistic Licensing.

basically think of trap books as prison ages (which can be possible) and you'll be just fine and dandy http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tweek

http://www.agesofmyst.net/temp/aombnr.jpg (http://www.agesofmyst.net)

Phen1
05-23-2004, 08:57 PM
Tweek, cite your source? If a trap book is just a prison age, then there would be room for more than one person at once, right? I don't get it. And in Myst, you could see the people in the books, but in Riven, it looked like a regular link.......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~~PHEN~~

Pre-rendering ROCKS!!!

matt myat
05-23-2004, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't get it. And in Myst, you could see the people in the books, but in Riven, it looked like a regular link... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wo, Phen, you've found a major contradiction there! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Perhaps once the book has trapped someone, the image bouces back from that person rather than from the (almost) linked world. Sirrus and Achenar wouldn't have entered those books if they were motivated by a black panel!

No wait, I seem to remember in Riven, when Gehn was trapped you still got the rotating image of D'ni! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Perhaps we should add yet another type of trap book to our list??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

Calistoaris
05-23-2004, 10:29 PM
Shorah http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm kind of new to the board and I hope to be here a very long time(well at least until I reeeaaallllly have to get to bed cause I got work in the morning) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think matt myat got the closest theory. Because I remember reading in Atrus' journal from Riven that when he was younger he found a formula for a trap book and that he was surprised that he remembered it after so long.I also remember from the Book of Ti'Ana (spoiler if you haven't read it) that the council sentenced Veovis to a prison age; that being he would link to the age written for him without a linking book and the book would be burned.
afterwards.

I don't know how to explain the difference in panels in Myst and Riven.

But, come to think of it; if the books on Myst and Gehn's book are both trap books, how come Sirrus and Achenar can talk to you but Gehn can't? **scratching head**

You know I think we'll have to go to the source to get real answers! Oh, Dr. Watson...

earthangell
05-24-2004, 12:09 AM
Shorah, Calistoaris!! (can i call you Cali? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif) Here, have a cookie!!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
05-24-2004, 02:55 AM
earthangell! There are crumbs everwhere! Try to be a bit more careful! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Oh... Shorah Calistoaris, I've seen you're name here and there, nice to meet you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Wonder if we could get RAWA on this forum to answer some of our curious questions? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[Warning, Book of Ti'ana spoiler...] Does the burning of Veovis' prison book sound familiar to anyone? I can't remember: did anyone reach him after that? Although it's differnt to a trap book, if anyone did reach him it would have helped with the current situation regarding the Red and Blue Books (wishful thinking http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif)

Lotto49
05-24-2004, 05:40 AM
Apologies if this suggestion has already been made, but isn't it possible that the "trap/prison" books used for Sirrus/Achenar and Gehn are different, hence their different appearances?

For instance, the red/blue books are real "trap" books where there is genuinly nothing there and they were persuaded to enter by something else, and Gehn's book is an actual Age which looks like D'ni..

I've just had another idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.. What if they are ages that have been written to be so small that there is only space for one person, and therefore if a second person links in the other is ejected.. surely that would be possible?

The art of Writing is pretty complex, which would mean that things like that would be possible, as well as writing an Age that has a misleading linking panel.

I may well be overlooking obvious flaws with these theories, but let me know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(I'm new, but am a fairly "hardcore" Myst obsessive - have all 3 games (not Uru) and the 3 novels too, and I've already been lurking but not posting round her for a while)

earthangell
05-24-2004, 01:50 PM
OOOooopps!! sorry Matt!!! i'lll go get my vacuum!.........vrrrrrooooooommmmmm.......vrrroooo oommmm......vvvrrrooooommmmmmeeeeecht...uhoh, what was that?????? did i get all the crumbs? and is anybody now missing something? let me know so i can check the bag b4 i through it away!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

CAGrayWolf
05-24-2004, 02:52 PM
As the story goes ... and I'm reciting from memory here so may miss a few details ... is that the Trap Books were basically Artistic License(AL) in order to work better with game play.

This was also during the time (creating Myst) that Cyan had no idea that Myst would sell like it did and that years later these questions would even be asked. Which is why many of the long time followers of Myst have more or less writing this off ... because the game Myst is basically wrong is certain aspects according to the storyline and the books.

Anyway ... I know I'm forgetting things here and I don't feel like going on a hunt for the info ... except that most of this should either be on DPWR (http://www.dpwr.net/) or on D'ni Desk Reference (http://shop.ubi.com/SetLang.asp?LG=ANGLAIS)

Perhaps the ending has not yet been written!

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

matt myat
05-24-2004, 05:17 PM
I think you're right GrayWolf, we shouldn't be looking in to it that deep. But I'm sure that in making Riven, they wouldn't have overlooked the subtleties in Myst.

I like your Tiny Age theory Lotto, but the brothers entered of their own selfish accord and I think I remember Atrus describing the trap books as books with tiny alterations so that they did not link (rather than Tiny Ages and the ejection worked much the same in Riven with Gehn) But perhaps I'm just assuming they're trap books, did Atrus ever mention it?

Nice job earthangell, Oh and has anyone seen Myat, my little bird? He seem's to have dissapeared.

earthangell
05-24-2004, 06:56 PM
OH NO!!! let me go find the bag right now!!!........ now where did i put it?.........nope, not here either....... oh, there it is!... *searches through bag* hmmmmm, no bird, Matt, but i did find a pretty pendant! Hmmm...... it's shaped like a shell!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

Calistoaris
05-24-2004, 07:28 PM
Yummy cookie! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Thanks earthangel (Cali's cool.)

Nice to meet everyone.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[Warning, Book of Ti'ana spoiler...] Does the burning of Veovis' prison book sound familiar to anyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I recall, this is how it went:[BIG SPOILERS!]

The Council decided to have a Prison Age written especially for Veovis. They had several guildsmen working on it so there wouldn't be much of a chance to spring Veovis. After Veovis linked, the book was burned, but there was a strange sign that came up in the flames and some meniacal laughing.
That last bit happened because A'Gaeris was able to sneek in and alter the age.

(This is from memory folks. I have to go back and reread the book to be 100% certain.)

matt myat
05-24-2004, 07:46 PM
Ah... No there he is, sitting in his little ring all this time.

Those BIG SPOLIERS sound suspicious Cali, why (divert your eyes now children http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) would A'Gaeris alter the book? What did he hope to achieve? If there was a way he could make it accessible in the future then Atrus may have used this technique in his son's trap books, or was A'Gaeris ensuring that the prison age would be a little more "accomidating" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif for Veovis?

Calistoaris
05-25-2004, 10:49 AM
I'm looking into that now.
**flipping through books**
Come on, where is it? **drops book**

Owww, my foot! I'll get back to you on that.
**limps away**

Cierdwyn
05-25-2004, 03:42 PM
I remember that incident from BoT. I believe that as the book was destroyed there was a quick blink of an image of someone in an outfit that was like the one that A'Gaeris was wearing in his age with the native peoples and huts. I think it was a long get up tied with a belt or rope. It was but a brief shimmery type of image that came and went so quickly that they were barely sure they had seen anything. Almost seemed as if he had somehow hijacked the sending of Veovis from where he was supposed to be going, to where he (A'Gaeris) was.

Cierdwyn

Tweek
05-25-2004, 08:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Phen1:
Tweek, cite your source? If a trap book is just a prison age, then there would be room for more than one person at once, right? I don't get it. And in Myst, you could see the people in the books, but in Riven, it looked like a regular link.......... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

~~PHEN~~

Pre-rendering ROCKS!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Source is Richard Watson of CyanWorlds..as for the exact explination I dont have a link to it handy...could be found in one of the 2 links Wolfie posted earlier.

Tweek

http://www.agesofmyst.net/temp/aombnr.jpg (http://www.agesofmyst.net)

kurtg1265
05-25-2004, 11:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR><BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>[Warning, Book of Ti'ana spoiler...] Does the burning of Veovis' prison book sound familiar to anyone?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I recall, this is how it went:[BIG SPOILERS!]

The Council decided to have a Prison Age written especially for Veovis. They had several guildsmen working on it so there wouldn't be much of a chance to spring Veovis. After Veovis linked, the book was burned, but there was a strange sign that came up in the flames and some meniacal laughing.
That last bit happened because A'Gaeris was able to sneek in and alter the age.

(This is from memory folks. I have to go back and reread the book to be 100% certain.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is pretty close , but A'Gaeris came in right as Veovis linked through the book , not as it was burned .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Quote from BoT : As he vanished , a sighing breath seemed to pass through the watching guildsmen . Heads turned , looking to Lord R'hira .
"It is done ," he said quietly . "Master Jadaris ... take the book away and burn it ."
Yet even as he spoke the words there was a faint disturbance of the air before the Book , the faintest blur . For the briefest instant , R'hira thought he glimpsed a figure in a rust-red prison gown , his head shaved bare .
R'hira looked about him , surprised . Was he the only one to have seen it ? And what precisely had he seen ? An afterimage ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is from paperback version , 1st edition , page 493 .

http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v93/kurtis1265/MCavvie.jpg

matt myat
05-26-2004, 01:31 AM
Ok sounds weird enough, (even if there isn't any manical laughing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) Anyone got any explainations? It's an odd little detail to put in the story http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

JFT117
05-27-2004, 09:59 PM
Sounds to me mostly like A'Gaeris linked into the room, and used the prison linking book VERY quickly. How he would have managed linking in and out that quickly... *shrugs*

But at any rate, Wolfie, this is all just speculation on how we could explain things to minimize the contradictions of Myst. Although it has been long known that trap books do not exist.

More Ideas: I forgot where I picked up this idea (maybe one of the RAWA letters) but some prison ages had devices that would send pages of the book to other locations (how the he** this would work, I dunno... sounds like freaky journey cloth sort of stuff to me).

But it could be thought that perhaps the red and blue books on myst had linked to prison ages, and the pages were distributed to other locations (stoneship, mechanical, etc.) at the time they linked to the ages, and perhaps those pages missing make the book function like a trap book. *shrugs*

Or maybe I'm too tired. But one thing that has always been Artistic Licensing was sound through the books. Myst with S&A and Atrus, Exile with the flybys. Reminds me of every sci fi show with sounds in space. hehe

Maybe someday someone will reform myst to more acurately depict what the stranger really saw and experienced....

Can you say bathrooms?... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And would anyone like to explain to me just how journey cloths, and the relto bookshelf works?

www.truescape.tk (http://www.truescape.tk)

Srikandi
05-28-2004, 02:38 AM
Y'know, since Relto was Yeesha's first Age, and since we meet her at age 10 in M4, I wonder whether we'll get any insight into her writing of Relto!

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

matt myat
05-28-2004, 03:19 AM
I didn't know Relto was written by Yeesha! But I've been thinking how odd it is that two games (and their separate storylines) featuring the same character were produced at the same time with (so I heard) little correspondence between the developers!

I wonder if Yeesha has any ages we get to explore in Revelation? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

jakek101
05-30-2004, 03:32 PM
In the beginin of Riven doesn't Atrus say something about having just found the "technology" to make a trap-book that looks like it links to a different age? This is a good time to put that 10th Aniversary Eddition to work.

No no, it's in the book he gives you to read about the events leading up to Riven. He says he remebers the formula from his childhood, actually. You become trapped in the void of the link. It is written on 87.6.20, which is not too long before 87.7.13, the day you meet him in Myst. I can only assume that this was a new type of book, different from the books Sirrus and Ankinar were trapped in, especially since there is no mention of them in the writing between his discovery of the Prison Book and you releasing him.

matt myat
05-30-2004, 05:19 PM
Ah, I thought the mention of finding the formula had to have been in one of the novels and couldn't have been in the game because I remember having read it. But of course I forgot the journal in Riven! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

It would make sense that the books would rely on different technology so that Atrus' trap book for Gehn was actually a severed link to D'ni, while the brothers' books were mearly black voids. And remember the missing "red and blue" pages? That was a the method of breaking the link (as in Atrus' (descriptive?) Myst book at the end of Myst)

I've heard for a while that the books distributed their pages throughout different ages, but hadn't made sense of this. But if the pages are distributed when one first enters the book then that would ensure the user couldn't be reached (I assume one of the brothers stole a page of Atrus' Myst book, but how did they get to Myst to hide it without that page being in the book? A separate linking book?) So there are two ways to sever a link in a linking or descriptive book: write some subtle changes (trap book for Gehn) or remove the pages (Brother's Red and Blue books and Atrus' Myst book) O.K. I think I need to lie down now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
06-01-2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't get it. And in Myst, you could see the people in the books, but in Riven, it looked like a regular link...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Wo, Phen, you've found a major contradiction there!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OK I think you might have found this out by now, but just to clarify:

In Atrus' journal in Riven, he says he found a way to make trap books appear normal:
From Atrus' journal: (http://www.dnidesk.com/arivenjour.html)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Many years ago, during a hunting expedition through the ruins of D'ni, I chanced upon a formula for a most unusual type of Book. Unfortunately, due to the fact that my father was then in the habit of confiscating my discoveries, I was forced to leave it behind. Years later, however, as part of my efforts to protect the vulnerable worlds linked to the Books in my library, I was pleased to find that I could still recall most of the formula, and with little experimentation quickly succeeded in creating one of these devices myself.


The procedure is actually quite simple: by altering key lines of text but slightly, a normal Linking Book's connection can be partially severed, such that anyone who attempts to use the Book will be permanently trapped in the dark void of the Link - that is, unless someone else then uses the Book, at which point that person would become trapped, and the first person displaced back into the world.


The technique can be applied to Books that have already been written, changes to the original text being so slight that anyone who is unfamiliar with the code will be unable to detect them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
(Note: You can tell these guys are programmers, can't you?)

The page with all the answers is here:
http://www.dnidesk.com/linkingfaq.html

It raises some more questions about Uru
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/353.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What comes with you when you link? RAWA says, as quoted below in his letters, that the rule of thumb is to take a step. If you carry something with you when you take your step, it will usually come with you when you link. The exception is the Linking or Descriptive Book you are traveling through. That always stays behind. So, if you're wearing a hat, or carrying a knapsack, those things will come with you when you link. If you have a linking or Descriptive Book in the knapsack, it will come with you, too, as long as it's not the Book you're using to link to the Age.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can you say "Relto"?

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

Eat_My_Shortz
06-01-2004, 08:28 AM
Oh, here is the quote from RAWA that proves trap books don't exist:
http://www.dnidesk.com/rawa4.html
This will be long, I'm quoting the four most important paragraphs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When making the games, we have to carefully pare everything down to the basic elements needed to play the game, leaving out almost anything that isn't required for gameplay. Myst Island, for example was made much smaller, and only the buildings/places relevant to playing Myst were included. Atrus definitely had other "places of protection" for his Books other than the ones shown in Myst. We throw in as many "extras" as we have time for, but for the most part, there isn't much time for things that aren't specifically needed for a playable game.


So the most accurate answer for many of these kinds of issues (e.g. "Why do the remaining Books coincidentally happen to be the Books with 'places of protection'?) is simply "artistic license". If we didn't have hardware limitations, storage capacity limitations, time limitations, money limitations, etc. and if we had a billion monkies working on a billion computers for a billion years, we could make the Ages more complete, which would be cool from an exploration point of view, but wouldn't make the games themselves any more playable. In fact with all the "non-game related" things thrown in, there would be a lot more "red herrings" and people would be even more confused when they write to me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (If I had a nickel for everyone who wrote to me asking what one of the few "extra" items in Myst did...)


The upshot of my ramblings so far is that there is a distinction between "The Complete Story of Atrus" (i.e. the D'ni historical accounts), and what we were able to portray in Myst/Riven. The problem is that you (the players) don't have direct access to "The Complete Story of Atrus". Unfortunately, this means that people often are forced to look to Myst itself to answer questions it wasn't intended to answer. Its purpose was not to be a course in D'ni history, it was designed to be game based on Atrus' life story.


"So what?!?!" I hear someone yelling in the back there. So... this means that there are different "correct" answers to many questions depending on if you're interested in the "real" answer (based on the background story not accessible to most people), or the "Myst" answer (based on the info available in the game). Sometimes the answers are the same. Sometimes they are different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Note he says:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don't worry, we'll fix it in "ultimateMYST: the 'See Sirrus and Achenar's Prison Ages' Edition". (Settle down, it's just a joke. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well not any more! Revelation IS ultimateMYST!!!!

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

matt myat
06-01-2004, 06:36 PM
Good info EMS, RAWA totaly kills the idea's of trap books!

Maybe Myst and Riven weren't historically accuarate (but how could they be - they are the history aren't they?!) but if Atrus did use a modified linking book to trap Gehn and it was not a trap book then wouldn't Gehn actually be free in D'ni or did Atrus change it to point to a different age? Or perhaps he wrote it in a room now locked in D'ni - that would be interesting - that Gehn is still alive (if he had access to food and water) in D'ni!

But all this speculation seems futile now that everything's be turned upsidedown by RAWA himself! (and four years ago at that!) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

CAGrayWolf
06-01-2004, 09:00 PM
Hmmm ... since we finally get to see K'veer in TPotS ... perhaps we may find Gehn's skeleton there as well. Maybe we really did send him there and then he (Gehn) was trapped like Atrus was for all that time.

It could happen. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Perhaps the ending has not yet been written!

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

Eat_My_Shortz
06-02-2004, 10:14 PM
What do you mean "finally"???
Haven't you played Myst?
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

_______________________________________________
The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

Allepo
08-08-2004, 01:26 PM
Hi everyone, I'm quite new here, but I think the discussions and speculation in this thread is really interesting. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ok, Trapbooks..

Personaly I think that the argument of "trapbooks being artistic license and in fact not real" is one of the worst and weakest arguments ever made about this subject.
And I don't care how official the source of this argument is.
It is and always will be a bad excuse, and even worse, it's storykill.
Something that in my opinion is not really a nice gesture to the fans of the series, for most of them came to love this story in a special way..

I can't really understand why Dr Watson actually makes such arguments, since storywise there is so much material to work with here..

I myself totaly agree with the theory of JFT117 who placed the opening post of this topic.
He is reasoning purely with facts given in both the novels and the games, and as far as I can see nothing is contradicting.

Atrus clearly states that the formula of the trapbooks was some kind of D'ni secret, that he also wanted to keep away from his tyranical father.

After many years Atrus was able to recall most of the formula from his memory, but he had to experiment with it also.
The prisonbook formula could be applied to ANY kind of linkingbook, also excisting ones, and that is what happned in all cases as far as I have seen.
Now it might in fact be possible that due to certain experiments Atrus actually invented NEW types of prisonbooks, that worked very different altogether.

Now within Riven the book had to be a lure, so someone would follow without suspicion.
Atrus knew his father, and he knew that Gehn would be suspicious about the book.
If someone linked, he/she would be cast into the dark void, and thus be totally invisible in the gateway panel.
The red and blue book work a little different, these books were far less refined since they are older, and they also were a bit like test cases for Atrus.
These books simply trapped someone in the link, and left them stuck in the middle.
This is not the same as casting someone into the dark void though, for the person will be visible in the gatewaypanel, but trapped.
Now the red and blue books were crippled, so that no one else by accident could be trapped by just touching the page, and set free the villain that was initially trapped.
By burning the books, the original link would probably be initiated again, and thus Sirrus and Achenar would end up in the ages the books originally linked to.

jjoonathan
09-04-2004, 02:28 PM
OK. As for the images, I think that it is apropriate to releate writing books to programming. If they are similar, the writer could put whatever they wanted in the link picture. They could, say, attach it to a virtual camera in the age, or play a pre-defined movie (like trap books), that really had nothing to do with the age. That would explain the diferent images... And to stick with the example, this could be why ghen's ages are instable. Maybe he jsut forgot to deallocate a bunch of stuff in a loop, so the age goes on to use up all of it's "RAM"... Oh well. never mind that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Ertihan
09-04-2004, 03:02 PM
I'm not certain if this hasn't already been mentioned, but remember that Atrus had NEVER designed the Blue and Red Trap Books for his sons! They were there to capture greedy adventurers, although it IS unneccessarily cruel to keep even those in voids instead of just letting them finish their links into prison ages http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. If Atrus had known his sons would use the Red and Blue Books I'm sure he would have made them regular books; I just can't see Atrus being cruel enough to trap his own sons in voids (I can't see him trapping strangers, but it's possible, especially since he doesn't even know them). If you ask me, S & A were greedy (and stupid!) enough to use the books, and were therefore trapped in prisons they were never meant to be trapped in! I think...

matt myat
09-04-2004, 08:16 PM
the trap books are alive!!!

thank you, thank you Allepo!

the discrediting by RAWA certainly dissapointed me a little but perhaps he just didn't want to let us in on the real truth? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

besides, the stories really wouldn't work without them, i believe that trap books are trap books, small intermediate voids, and (to put your fears to rest Ertihan) atrus never really intended to lock up any body for eternity as he would burn the books and release the occupants as soon as he had captured the vandalists. perhaps the team at ubi have been trying to salvage the real story?

as for images, love your programming theories jjoonathan! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

rorschachx
09-04-2004, 09:03 PM
All right nobody get mad at me for plagerizing their ideas im just putting all of the data together to see if we all agree...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I think that these are the conclusions we are drawing:

One; Normal linking books use a void or nothing space to create the link between worlds.

Two; Atrus (the burdened one) developed the trap books and prison books on an existing blue print he stored in his head.

Three; Since they came about through experimentation they were a completely new kind of book.

Four; Trap books are a linking book with a few key phrases altered in order to stop the link from being completed. There for they keep the person in the void between worlds.

Five; Depending on how they are written they can either: 1) Show the prisoner through the window and allow them to speak and see out. 2) Continue showing the world it no longer links too.

Six; the void can only hold one person trapped between the links.

Seven; When the book is open and the panel is showing the trapped can excape if another touches the panel.

Eight; If the book is closed and being destroyed the trapped is allowed to complete the link.

Nine; When pages are removed the trapped remain in the void but become unable to talk through the link or get out of it as well.

Ten; A prison age book is simply an age with no way back to another age or means to write another age as well.

Eleven; prison ages can be linked with trap books.

Twelve; These kinds of books can exist because the art of writing links to infinate worlds of infinate possibilities. There for anything is possible if you can figure out how to do it.

Ok ok im done please put down your pitchforks i'll be quiet now!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

_________________________
What do you see....

Lotto49
09-05-2004, 11:00 AM
rorschachx: all sounds pretty water-tight to me! Someone'll probably come and contradict it though, but it's all part of the fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

matt myat
09-05-2004, 03:32 PM
yup, i think all your points are spot on rorschachx!

just not too loud - some people are gunna refute these trap books again! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[edit] okay, to prevent as much whiplash as possible - and just as a disclaimer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - some people, including Richard A. Watson have discredited trapbooks entirely, putting them to artistic licese in Myst and Riven, stating that they do not exist and that prison books (i.e. ages with no links out) where the only true forms of entrapment-by-book that Atrus used on members his family http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by matt myat on Sun September 05 2004 at 02:49 PM.]

rorschachx
09-05-2004, 05:53 PM
Thanks matt...I did read those letters from rawa and my only thought is that he was trying to simplify an answer in order to get us of his back......Which i totally understand being in a similar position myself(don't ask). I like to think that these boards allow us to conjecture without the constraints of abiding a creator or owner of the series we talk about. Therefore we don't have to swallow the answer given to us by the people dirrectly involved in its making. We all have the capacity to understand and see things in another way even if this sight dosn't agree with the authors original idea. So to rawa i say in reality you may be correct, but in my vision of the myst realms trap books exist and were used by atrus.

uhhhhmmmm.........did i kill this thread??!!!
_________________________
What do you see....

[This message was edited by rorschachx on Sun September 05 2004 at 06:09 PM.]

[This message was edited by rorschachx on Tue September 07 2004 at 08:40 PM.]

mszv
09-07-2004, 10:54 PM
Good thread, and an interesting discussion - good "give and take".

My opinion, though it's not shared by everyone - I do think that any explanation outside of the games, or perhaps the books and the games together, it's a weak explanation. I'm fond of saying that it's not what's on the wall of a developer's office, or in the writings placed in a desk drawer, it's what we see in the works. What the developer produces is important, not what they meant to do. So, if there are trap books in some of the works (the games and/or the books) then there are trap books.

I've also read that some people rank the works in terms of what's "real" - Uru is more "real" than "Myst", which is more of a "game". I'm not doing this argument justice, since I don't agree with it, so someone else should weigh in here and state the reasoning behind it - just want to be fair.

It's also OK with me, if the Myst world universe, D'ni, is inconsistent, if trap books occur in some of the works, but not in others, though some of you have done a great job of making it all fit together!

-----------------------------
Regards,
mszv - play Until Uru as amarez

Put that down, you are not in a game, this is my life!

earthangell
09-09-2004, 12:42 AM
did anyone else notice in the Atrus's journal that he talks SPECIFICALLY about making the prison ages for Sirrus and Achenar, the trap books, and the fact that he said that he would warn them NOT TO TOUCH. ANY parent knows that when you tell your child NOT to do something, they will (as soon as your not looking, and sometimes b4), of course, DO IT! i know, i know, he wasn't nessasrily sure which one (or both) was/were to blame, but for Pete's Sake!! ya can't excuse him completely! Atrus was/is not an IDIOT!!! just a little too involved in his Writings.....

(please don't shoot me! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif just saying what needed to be said http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif) (lol)

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

JustBrett
09-09-2004, 01:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by earthangell:
did anyone else notice in the Atrus's journal that he talks SPECIFICALLY about making the prison ages for Sirrus and Achenar<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh? His journal talks about "the need to protect my Myst library should some overly greedy explorer stumble onto it". To me, that means the prison Ages were NOT made for S&A, but as a general security measure. As Atrus says in the introduction to Myst, he was worried about what kind of person might get his or her hands on the Myst Book that was lost in the fissure.

I don't see anything in the Haven journal that could be interpreted in the way you suggest. Can you give a quote?

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

matt myat
09-09-2004, 02:11 AM
now you've stepped in it angell! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

but very true, Atrus may well have suspected his sons and intended to use reverse psychology on them, but now that i think of it, there a two ways he could put it, he could say they were out of bounds and leave it at that, which might mean that he suspects them or he might have intended to explain that they were to trap some vandalist. if he was going for the latter wouldn't he realise that they would then know he knew something was amiss and might treat him as a threat? or perhaps that would be the way he would confront them?

[This message was edited by matt myat on Thu September 09 2004 at 01:23 AM.]

JustBrett
09-09-2004, 09:04 AM
You all seem to be assuming that Haven and Spire were written after Atrus discovered the damage to his library, and that they were designed to catch the perpetrators. That just doesn't seem likely to me.

Atrus started worrying about the fate of the Myst Book in the fissure before his sons were even born, and probably wrote the prison Ages when they were still children. He couldn't have suspected them of anything at that time, because they hadn't yet DONE anything. Atrus was just concerned that some bad guy would find his Myst Book (or maybe even one of the Myst Books on his other Ages) and come snooping around Myst Island. The prison Ages were just a precaution.

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

earthangell
09-09-2004, 01:24 PM
ok ok, i'm assuming a lot... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif, like the ages of the boys when Atrus wrote that bit.... But then, what does he mean that, "I must tell Catherine when all is finished" (slight misquote, i'm sorry, but the gist of it is there...)? :sigh: guess i'll have to wait and see what else will be in the journal when the game comes out.....

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

JustBrett
09-09-2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by earthangell:
ok ok, i'm assuming a lot... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif, like the ages of the boys when Atrus wrote that bit.... But then, what does he mean that, "I must tell Catherine when all is finished"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why wouldn't he tell Catherine? There isn't any reason to keep it a secret from her, and Atrus would surely want to warn her not to use those Books! I just assumed it meant he was going to say something like "Hey, sweetie. Remember that plan I had for dealing with intruders? Well, it's done. Stay away from the Red and Blue Books, because those link to my prison Ages."

Maybe I missed something. What other meaning do you see in that statement?

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*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

earthangell
09-09-2004, 06:51 PM
to me, it's not WHAT he says, but HOW he says it.... like there's something else.... i'm not sure what i'm trying to say, i just get a feeling that we're missing part of the story... I would think that Catherine already knew that he was making trap books, so why tell her after all is finished unless there's something more? that, and i keep feeling like the books WERE somewhat intended for his sons, even though he would Definately be hoping that it would be someone else, if it came to that. so i see the statement as "i'll tell Catherine after the boys are trapped"...... but i'm probably just being delusional.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

rorschachx
09-09-2004, 07:46 PM
I didn't pick up on that when i played the demo EA, But know that i think of it he did sound as if he was suspicious of someone.......

_________________________
What do you see....

KamronShepard
09-09-2004, 09:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ertihan:
I'm not certain if this hasn't already been mentioned, but remember that Atrus had NEVER designed the Blue and Red Trap Books for his sons! They were there to capture greedy adventurers, although it IS unneccessarily cruel to keep even those in voids instead of just letting them finish their links into prison ages http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif. If Atrus had known his sons would use the Red and Blue Books I'm sure he would have made them regular books; I just can't see Atrus being cruel enough to trap his own sons in voids (I can't see him trapping strangers, but it's possible, especially since he doesn't even know them). If you ask me, S & A were greedy (and stupid!) enough to use the books, and were therefore trapped in prisons they were never meant to be trapped in! I think...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reason he couldn't use a normal Prison Book is that Prison books are based on the idea that the person who links in has no Linking Book to return with. Any Age is a Prison Age if you have no link out of it. I suppose that the Trap Books are soemhow able to suppress the linking ability of any Linking Books brought with you.

matt myat
09-10-2004, 07:17 PM
Nice idea Kamron! Very nice! I think people have just assumed the trappee has to be stupid enough not to take any books (i.e. Sirrus, Archenar and Gehn)

mszv
09-10-2004, 08:27 PM
Hi,
I thought the statement "I must tell Catherine when all is finished" has something to do with what Atrus was currently working on - so that he and Catherine could see their sons again in Myst IV.

-----------------------------
Regards,
mszv - play Until Uru as amarez

Put that down, you are not in a game, this is my life!