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ARCLIGHT545
11-03-2015, 01:04 AM
I have been a Creed fan since the first title. This is the first title that I have felt put off by the interaction between my character and another character. For the life of me, I cannot understand why they felt the need to advocate for Karl Marx and Marxism. The first step on the road to communism and the millions of deaths that usually come with it. Why Ubisoft felt the need to go political with the game Ill never understand.:mad:

Charleyyy1
11-03-2015, 01:27 AM
http://i.imgur.com/2ru5vEP.png

ARCLIGHT545
11-03-2015, 02:03 AM
Yeah Charlie, I know, Ive read that time and time again. However, this "work of fiction" includes individuals from ACTUAL history. They included someone whose ideology has led to MILLIONS of people dying in reality. Why would a company include that person, why would they position him as if they are endorsing his ideology. His theories led to MILLIONS dying once they reached their ultimate evolution.

Sorrosyss
11-03-2015, 02:20 AM
Hitler and Stalin have been in many video games as well. Again, fictional. There is no endorsement, purely for entertainment purposes. That is after all the point to games. :)

Pr0metheus 1962
11-03-2015, 02:57 AM
Karl Marx was a person who tried to improve the lot of the poor and working classes at a time when these groups were terribly mistreated at the hands of untrammelled capitalism, and he always supported democratic methods at a time when most workers had no say at all in their government. Let's not forget that, at this time, child labor was rampant, as were workhouses where debtors and the long-term unemployed were forced to work as slave labor. The fact that Marx's writings and philosophies were later twisted by groups who desired power for its own sake cannot be blamed on Marx.

And let's not forget that capitalism's record is hardly spotless - in Marx's time, American capitalism drove the westward expansion that led to the genocide of the American Indian. In 1886, the Haymarket Affair resulted in several organizers of a protest advocating an 8-hour work day being hanged on trumped up charges. In the 1910s and 1920s, workers who tried to unionize were brutally suppressed right here in the US, and many workers were machine-gunned by the army and bombed by the US Air Force during events like the Ludlow Massacre and the Battle of Blair Mountain. Since the end of WW2, capitalist expansionism has also led to the deaths of millions in places like Nicaragua, Iran, Panama, Greece, Guatemala, Laos, Haiti, Congo, the Dominican Republic, Brazil, Cambodia and Cuba, to name just a few.

Every political philosophy can be twisted and used for evil, and even with the best intentions a philosophy can end up hurting people, if it's applied without regard for those it fails to help. It doesn't mean that the political philosophy itself is evil - usually they begin with noble intentions. Marxism certainly did. And if it were not for the activism of Marxists, Anarchists and other activists from the political left, most of us would still not have the vote and we'd still be working 12 hours or more per day in brutal conditions for pitifully low wages and at the mercy of robber barons. Anyone who thinks those things improved because of capitalism needs to think again. The adherents of capitalism fought tooth and nail to prevent those improvements.

ziggurcat
11-03-2015, 03:23 AM
Yeah Charlie, I know, Ive read that time and time again. However, this "work of fiction" includes individuals from ACTUAL history. They included someone whose ideology has led to MILLIONS of people dying in reality. Why would a company include that person, why would they position him as if they are endorsing his ideology. His theories led to MILLIONS dying once they reached their ultimate evolution.

you can't exactly pin any of the atrocities conducted under the guise of communism on marx... it's not his ideas that resulted in the millions of deaths, it's the people who poorly implemented those ideas, and their lust for power/paranoia that's at fault.

cawatrooper9
11-03-2015, 03:16 PM
you can't exactly pin any of the atrocities conducted under the guise of communism on marx... it's not his ideas that resulted in the millions of deaths, it's the people who poorly implemented those ideas, and their lust for power/paranoia that's at fault.

Exactly, Marx's philosophy is actually pretty in line with that of the Assassins... it's just that, much like some of the Assassins's strategies, it hasn't worked out that well in practice yet.

SofaJockey
11-03-2015, 10:23 PM
I have been a Creed fan since the first title. This is the first title that I have felt put off by the interaction between my character and another character. For the life of me, I cannot understand why they felt the need to advocate for Karl Marx and Marxism. The first step on the road to communism and the millions of deaths that usually come with it. Why Ubisoft felt the need to go political with the game Ill never understand.:mad:

Just a guy trying to stand up for the downtrodden.
If there is any political spin here, may I suggest it is your own.

Hans684
11-03-2015, 10:33 PM
Exactly, Marx's philosophy is actually pretty in line with that of the Assassins... it's just that, much like some of the Assassins's strategies, it hasn't worked out that well in practice yet.

It's in line with both seeing as both philosophies has a left, right and middle. Haytham's Order is pretty in line, compare that against Starrick's Order who's the opposite (along with the most inconsistent "grand plan" so far) For the Assassins you can compare Ezio's Brotherhood against Achilles Brotherhood. What do each comparison have in common? On side does the best for the people while the other prey on them.

cawatrooper9
11-03-2015, 10:40 PM
It's in line with both seeing as both philosophies has a left, right and middle. Haytham's Order is pretty in line, compare that against Starrick's Order who's the opposite (along with the most inconsistent "grand plan" so far) For the Assassins you can compare Ezio's Brotherhood against Achilles Brotherhood. What do each comparison have in common? On side does the best for the people while the other prey on them.

And which brotherhood, may I ask, preyed upon the people?

Hans684
11-03-2015, 10:59 PM
And which brotherhood, may I ask, preyed upon the people?

Achilles and Starrick, should be obvious. Shouldn't it?

cawatrooper9
11-03-2015, 11:10 PM
Achilles and Starrick, should be obvious. Shouldn't it?

I'd agree that they do seem similar in some aspects (particularly crime)- but let's not forget: Ezio employed thieves, and even stole from the pockets of common folk (even when he was raking in his real estate mogul/treasure hunter wages!).

I think that, because the Assassins were the "antagonists" or Rogue, that people tend to view them as more villainous- however, I see them as more misguided. Achilles' quest for the POEs was no different in means than any of the other eras (other than it was a bit more blatant in some aspects)- it just ended more tragically than usual. He got unlucky, but he wasn't pursuing them to "prey" upon them people.

Pr0metheus 1962
11-03-2015, 11:17 PM
The idea that the Templars prey on the people is a flawed interpretation of the original idea for the franchise. It's becoming more common to think this way these days, since the writers are taking the lazy way out, creating plots with stereotypical bad guys (the Templars). However, the original intent was that the Templars sought to bring about a better world through controlling people's worst impulses, while the Assassins felt that people's worst impulses would decline if the people were afforded more freedom.

So there should be no "bad guys" and no "good guys". The Templars and the Assassins want the same thing - a peaceful and mutually beneficial society, but their chosen methods to accomplish it are philosophically opposed.

Jawahunter47
11-03-2015, 11:17 PM
Communism in itself is not necessarily a bad thing. It's the way it has been used that is wrong but if you purely look at the ieology it has nothing to do with the death of millions of people. And they are not making a political statement by implementing communism in their game. It's just an extra component to their story

RA503
11-03-2015, 11:35 PM
The problem about communism is that most goverments only likes the first part of it, the part whem they take the money of the people,the part they have to return with equality they forget,this is the problem,need to believe in the good will of politicians,the only communist leader that don't become suspicious milionary after achieve power is from uruguay...

I don't believe that Marx is a bad guy,only tremendous naive...

cawatrooper9
11-03-2015, 11:37 PM
So there should be no "bad guys" and no "good guys". The Templars and the Assassins want the same thing - a peaceful and mutually beneficial society, but their chosen methods to accomplish it are philosophically opposed.

Absolutely agreed. I know some games have utterly failed to portray this greyness, but that doesn't mean it isn't a pillar of the franchise.

Hans684
11-04-2015, 06:27 AM
I'd agree that they do seem similar in some aspects (particularly crime),

- gangs (Blighters & Hope's gang)
- chemicals used on the people (Starrick's Soothing Syrup & Poisonous gas by the Colonial Assassins)
- targeting innocents (side missions other than gangs & the Colonial Brotherhood's assassination contracts)
- attack and hostage (child labor & Kessegowase's attack and hostage of native villages.)

That should be all.


but let's not forget: Ezio employed thieves, and even stole from the pockets of common folk (even when he was raking in his real estate mogul/treasure hunter wages!).

True but he still empowered the people unlike Achilles


I think that, because the Assassins were the "antagonists" or Rogue, that people tend to view them as more villainous- however, I see them as more misguided.

What if I sag this about the Borgia or Starrick?


Achilles' quest for the POEs was no different in means than any of the other eras (other than it was a bit more blatant in some aspects)- it just ended more tragically than usual.

Adéwalé told him about the first earthquake that happened when they sent an Assassin for a a Temple pointed by the Voynich Manuscript and Precursor Box. It's far more complicated.


He got unlucky, but he wasn't pursuing them to "prey" upon them people.

His brotherhood shows otherwise.