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View Full Version : My gripe with Assassins and Templars



AssassinHMS
10-29-2015, 06:52 AM
Ok, so although I haven’t played Assassin’s Creed for a long time, there is something about this franchise that I could never really get over. Since I first played AC1, I always felt I couldn’t really get behind either side of the Assassin/Templar struggle. In fact, the more I thought about their ideologies the less I liked them. So finally, I decided to put in words why I heavily frown upon these two fictional factions.


They’re major hypocrites – They say they want peace yet promote violence. This wouldn’t bother me too much if they understood how hypocritical they’re being instead of just shrugging it off as “oh, it’s just one of the great ironies of our ideology…” No, you idiots! You don’t actually want peace. What you want is to turn the world into this pretty version that works according to your own PERSONAL and SELFISH notion of “Ideal”, a world where everyone is free and equal (two concepts which you also fail to grasp). Well guess what, there is no such thing as equality or freedom! If two things in this Universe were to be truly EQUAL, then there would be no point for one of them to exist. Equality is a lie and striving for such a basic and childish notion only ends up in exactly this – Hypocrisy. And don’t even get me started on “freedom”!


Seriously, it’s like they’re ******ed or something. Especially the Assassins, they piss me off the most because they’re usually portrayed as the “better option” in these games. And why is that? Why because they stand for the poor and the weak, the oppressed and the wronged…ugh. But wait, so are they for equality or for freedom? They say they want people to be free to choose and live as they see fit yet, as soon as they don’t like the way things are going they suddenly think it’s their duty to step in and “fix” things by administering a good dose of “equality pills” which involve murder and destabilizing a functional society among other things (like undermining the same “freedom” they claim to respect).

Oh but of course, in the end it’s the Templars’ fault because they’re the ones pulling the strings and corrupting society!!

And here’s the REAL problem: they don’t see themselves or their counterpart as a part of society or even humanity. Worse, they actually believe to be above them and to have the means to know what’s best for us and for the world.
They think the world is screwed up and everyone is just a puppet (except for them of course). They think they know what’s evil and wrong and they claim to know what’s right and best for humanity yet they fail to understand the “harsh” reality - their subjective views are not above anyone else’s. .

The world works because it is the way it is and if we exist either as individuals or as a society it is only because we work. There is nothing wrong with the world and there is nothing sacred about equality, freedom or peace. These are artificial concepts that hold little to no weight outside of our imaginary and ideal little utopias.
Fighting for such concepts is not only pointless but in fact really, REALLY…stupid.




If Equality was a thing we wouldn’t have to talk about it or to work towards it.
The only Peace that can exist comes either from accepting the world as it is or from death itself.
And Freedom is such an obscure concept that I can only talk about it with extreme irony since I’m nothing more than a conscious biological program in the first place.

VestigialLlama4
10-29-2015, 07:27 AM
If two things in this Universe were to be truly EQUAL, then there would be no point for one of them to exist.

Come now, surely friendship as a concept is possible.


But wait, so are they for equality or for freedom?

A lot of people don't see any difference between them. That difference exists in Europe of course but not in the North American mainstream.


Worse, they actually believe to be above them and to have the means to know what’s best for us and for the world. They think the world is screwed up and everyone is just a puppet (except for them of course). They think they know what’s evil and wrong and they claim to know what’s right and best for humanity yet they fail to understand the “harsh” reality - their subjective views are not above anyone else’s. .

That actually is true. I mean the Assassins are this elite who sit on the secret technology and stuff and keep them away from the hands of the common people. They are basically historical superheroes and vigilantes, and those stories have the same issues.


Fighting for such concepts is not only pointless but in fact really, REALLY…stupid.

Well across history many people did fight for these pointless and stupid concepts, they died and in some cases killed for stuff we take for granted: independence, national soveriegnty, abolition of slavery, rights for minorities and women's vote, right for protest and other such things. It's not even a hundred years since women got the vote and you still see rabid misogyny and sexism.

So I don't think it's as "stupid" as all that.


If Equality was a thing we wouldn’t have to talk about it or to work towards it.

The same can be said about Love and yet we have to talk about it and work towards it. Does that mean Love doesn't exist and isn't a thing?


The only Peace that can exist comes either from accepting the world as it is or from death itself.

This is actually getting too philosophical even for my liking. Can you actually discuss specific examples of the game and what you object to, that way we don't have to talk at cross-purposes.

darksavior1977
10-29-2015, 01:29 PM
Neither faction is non-violent. Al-Mualim attempts to explain why to Altair when he tells him,"Some do ill out of ignorance or fear. These men can be saved. Others suffer from corrupted wills, their minds poisoned and twisted. These men must be destroyed." Thus explaining why some men must die, and all Templars are considered corrupted of will. Assassins believe that the only true peace is the one chosen by people, not surrender foisted upon them by overlords, because people will inevitably revolt for their freedom. The Templars believe the opposite, that the people at large cannot be trusted to secure their own peace, and that most are ignorant sheep who need a shepherd. They seek surrender, although they call it peace, it is actually pacification under their boot. The assassins seek the power and knowledge of the first civilization in order to keep it out of the hands of those who would use it to enslave humanity, much as the first civilization did. Templar seek power for precisely that reason, to leverage it against the masses of the world to enthrall them.

Unfortunately the series itself loses sight of this, and assassins no longer make precise strikes against the lynchpin Templar targets that will bring down the powerbase. Now more often they start at the bottom and work up, instead of from the top down, which results in the highest number of casualties instead of the least, a carpet bomb instead of a sniper's bullet. Every game since the original AC has made it so the assassins kill the **** out of everyone, which makes it less assassination and more mass murder. Syndicate is by majority a gang war with Jacob. Evie is the proper assassin of the two, along with her intel officer Mr.Green. Their relationship reminding me of Altair and Malik from AC1, minus any romantic overtones of course. And while the game seems to show self awareness of this, by having Evie and Jacob fall out over it, it doesn't change the fact that for the most part of the game the player is portraying a gang thug in Jacob (who has the majority of the story missions) instead of playing as a proper assassin in Evie. The problem of course being that instead of Syndicate feeling so much like an AC game, it feels like GTA: Victorian London, more so when you consider that the whole take the city from the gang and supplant your own thing was done in GTA San Adreas back in 2004.

cawatrooper9
10-29-2015, 02:29 PM
Especially the Assassins, they piss me off the most because they’re usually portrayed as the “better option” in these games. And why is that? Why because they stand for the poor and the weak, the oppressed and the wronged…ugh.
While I get that this isn't always the case (though AC is a rather progressive series, and I tend to often agree with their politics, even if I understand you may not) this ideology isn't new by any means in entertainment. Think of legendary heroes like Robin Hood; "Steal from the rich and give to the poor"...

AssassinHMS
10-29-2015, 08:05 PM
Come now, surely friendship as a concept is possible.
Depends on your personal concept of friendship I guess. It does hold very little meaning to me I must say but that’s beside the point.
Friendship does not require equality in any shape or form (fortunately)…you can be friends with your dog if you want to.


Well across history many people did fight for these pointless and stupid concepts, they died and in some cases killed for stuff we take for granted: independence, national soveriegnty, abolition of slavery, rights for minorities and women's vote, right for protest and other such things. It's not even a hundred years since women got the vote and you still see rabid misogyny and sexism.

So I don't think it's as "stupid" as all that.

And yet, equality never existed to begin with so I wonder…will men and women ever be “equal”…eheheh
I also wonder why genders exist in the first place if they were really meant to be equal…




The same can be said about Love and yet we have to talk about it and work towards it. Does that mean Love doesn't exist and isn't a thing?

Well, people are not born equal (shocker!) so one can either accept that and try to understand why that is in hopes of understanding the world itself or that person can (selfishly) label it as “wrong” and embark on a quest to make the world a supposedly “better” place (because HE/SHE knows better).

As for love…no, we don’t work towards it. You either feel attracted to someone or you don’t. Odds are the attraction for that person will quickly fade over time (after all, monogamy is a tricky thing to say the least).
What you will be working towards in a long-term relationship isn’t love but commitment. You will work to find a reason to spend your days with someone you no longer feel nearly as attracted to as you used to. You will be working towards keeping the relationship viable.
Love isn’t a product of work but biology. You cannot work towards love in the same way you aren’t capable of working towards equality. If these things don’t exist in the first place then you can only fool yourself into believing otherwise. And I can tell you right now that there is no such thing as equality in our world as it would be counterproductive and honestly, pointless.



This is actually getting too philosophical even for my liking. Can you actually discuss specific examples of the game and what you object to, that way we don't have to talk at cross-purposes.
All I’m saying here is that they say they’re fighting for humanity yet they hate the way it works.
They say they want freedom, yet they don’t like the result of such freedom (injustice and other petty words). They talk about wanting world peace but fail to realize that life itself is basically the antithesis of peace as one of the basic rules of nature is survival of the fittest which already implies death and struggle.
At least the Templars are more consistent as they actually admit they want to enslave Humanity and put an end to “free-will”, which is basically the only way to achieve some artificial form of peace.

VestigialLlama4
10-29-2015, 08:26 PM
And yet, equality never existed to begin with so I wonder

Research into paleolithic societies will tell you otherwise. Early humans were hunter gatherers and there was equality between men and women, the family structure only came in when humans invented agriculture.


I also wonder why genders exist in the first place if they were really meant to be equal…

I wonder if you believe that equality doesn't exist, if that means you consider yourself unworthy of consideration and respect. That you don't think you should be treated as equal. I am just asking here.


All I’m saying here is that they say they’re fighting for humanity yet they hate the way it works.

I don't think that's true at all. Assassins do form relationships and look after "the little guy", you see Connor's homestead and other parts. Ezio says that the most important thing in life is that he loves the world.

Eurostar7
10-29-2015, 08:34 PM
The ending to this has Spoilers, but the rest should be common knowledge by now. lol

The whole conflict is really easy to understand, Ubisoft is just making it very complex story out of it, its not really philosophical.

The First Civilization created humankind as a slave species (Juno said "We built you in our own image" to Ezio in 1499), and they bred with them, creating hybrid humans (basically everyone that has Eagle Eye and physical gifts are hybrid humans). The hybrid humans rebelled (Adam and Eve). The First Civilization who are on the hybrid human side (Minerva, Consus, and some others created the Assassins. Juno, throughout time, manipulated humankind (and the hybrid humans) to help her create a body for her to inhabit (and enslave humankind once again) and birthed the Templars in the process.

The Templars adopt Juno's ideology of slavery due to her manipulation, not knowing that they are descendants of Adam and Eve who were themselves slaves.

The Templars have always helped Juno without knowing it, Its been proven before but the ending of ACS was very straight forward in saying it.

Rafe Harwood
10-29-2015, 09:03 PM
Spoiler tag Euro. Spoiler tag! lol ;)

Eurostar7
10-29-2015, 09:13 PM
I think everyone has played the Ezio AC games, so what i said is nothing new. lol

AssassinHMS
10-29-2015, 11:26 PM
Research into paleolithic societies will tell you otherwise. Early humans were hunter gatherers and there was equality between men and women, the family structure only came in when humans invented agriculture.
Well according to Wikipedia the social organization of those early humans is largely unknown to scientists. Anyway the family structure came way before agriculture since someone had to take care of the kids (and I bet the caretakers weren’t the men).
Are you seriously trying to tell me there were no gender roles back then?




I wonder if you believe that equality doesn't exist, if that means you consider yourself unworthy of consideration and respect. That you don't think you should be treated as equal. I am just asking here.

Should we be treated as equals? That’s a good question. Of course the answer you will hear the most will be “yes, of course we should” because the illusion of “equality” is highly appreciated by most people today. However, give any of those equality apologists power and I can guarantee you that those people will become oppressors themselves that exert their own will over others. You might call it corruption but I call it reality. We are all selfish and self-centered. That’s how nature works – the strong rule over the weak and this struggle for power and survival is the fuel for evolution and improvement. If we were all equal, we would stagnate.
So, although most of the time I would agree that we should be treated as equals (because it’s a nice dream after all), I’ll be honest this one time and say what is true for ALL of us – if you give me the power to rule over you or to be treated better/differently I will take it and I will exploit it as much as I possibly can.
So, there you go, the (quite obvious) truth. Just don’t forget this applies to everyone so I guess there’s some equality to that ahahah




I don't think that's true at all. Assassins do form relationships and look after "the little guy", you see Connor's homestead and other parts. Ezio says that the most important thing in life is that he loves the world.

The little guy…………..
“The little guy” is another proof that the Assassins don’t like the way Humanity operates.
No one cares about that guy, that’s why he’s little. But without “the little guy” there wouldn’t be “the big guy”. Again, “survival of the fittest”. Yet the Assassins don’t like that and decide to make the little guy bigger while also killing the big guys.

Ezio says he loves the world……………..
And I love taxes!
Actions speak louder than words. If he loved the world he wouldn’t fight it all the time. Someone who loves the world not only accepts it the way it is but also appreciates how it works which he clearly doesn’t otherwise he wouldn’t be an Assassin.

VestigialLlama4
10-30-2015, 04:27 AM
Are you seriously trying to tell me there were no gender roles back then?

Well there's as little evidence to assume there is as to assume the opposite. We must only follow the evidence, evidence suggests at the very least the absence of the same rigidity that you had in other places.

Wrong assumptions have often led to erroneous misconceptions. Everyone assumes that the Pyramid was built by slaves and that's led to the image of slave drivers whipping people as they drag blocks. Then archeologists find evidence that shows they were made by paid labourers who were highly skilled, farmers who worked off-season.


I’ll be honest this one time and say what is true for ALL of us...

Must have been cathartic to get that out of your chest.

Anyway this is a game forum, not one to discuss cornball social darwinism. So please use examples from the games that you disagree with so we can actually have a discussion.

SixKeys
10-30-2015, 05:23 AM
So, although most of the time I would agree that we should be treated as equals (because it’s a nice dream after all), I’ll be honest this one time and say what is true for ALL of us – if you give me the power to rule over you or to be treated better/differently I will take it and I will exploit it as much as I possibly can.
So, there you go, the (quite obvious) truth. Just don’t forget this applies to everyone so I guess there’s some equality to that ahahah

I present to you José Mujica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mujica

"He has been described as "the world's 'humblest' president" due to his austere lifestyle and his donation of around 90 percent of his $12,000 monthly salary to charities that benefit poor people and small entrepreneurs."

VestigialLlama4
10-30-2015, 01:17 PM
I present to you José Mujica:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Mujica

"He has been described as "the world's 'humblest' president" due to his austere lifestyle and his donation of around 90 percent of his $12,000 monthly salary to charities that benefit poor people and small entrepreneurs."

Well in the Darwinist opinion of the Assassin in Her Majesty's Service, Uruguay is a poor nation and so nobody should care about the president of a weak-a-- nation.