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yerpalal
04-27-2004, 07:46 AM
In IL-2 torpedoes were pretty much a side show and were accorded that degree of attention. Fair enough, it was an aerial warfare and ground pounding game, so be it.

Not so in the Pacific, however. Both navies were committed to this type of attack, developed specific aircraft types for it and perfected torpedo attacks into a devastating feature of aerial warfare.

Now, the problem here is two-fold. First, there is the issue of the 100% accuracy of A-I torpedo runs. Obviously, this would skew PF in very unpleasant ways if left unattended. Now, it is entirely possible that this issue has already been addressed and I am unaware of the fix, if so, please-someone tell me. If not, WILL this be addressed?

Secondly, and the reason I am posting today, is the post which I read on the IL-2 general board and quote here:

"Aces of the pacific had setup where you had to drop the torp correctly or it would not run. Unfortunately Oleg has stated that it would be too complex to add that into IL2."

Is this honestly the case or just forum hoo-doo? If this is the case, is it also too complex to add it into PF? Frankly, that would be like stating gun concerntration is too complex to code for the original game.

Enquiring minds . . . etc.

yerpalal
04-27-2004, 07:46 AM
In IL-2 torpedoes were pretty much a side show and were accorded that degree of attention. Fair enough, it was an aerial warfare and ground pounding game, so be it.

Not so in the Pacific, however. Both navies were committed to this type of attack, developed specific aircraft types for it and perfected torpedo attacks into a devastating feature of aerial warfare.

Now, the problem here is two-fold. First, there is the issue of the 100% accuracy of A-I torpedo runs. Obviously, this would skew PF in very unpleasant ways if left unattended. Now, it is entirely possible that this issue has already been addressed and I am unaware of the fix, if so, please-someone tell me. If not, WILL this be addressed?

Secondly, and the reason I am posting today, is the post which I read on the IL-2 general board and quote here:

"Aces of the pacific had setup where you had to drop the torp correctly or it would not run. Unfortunately Oleg has stated that it would be too complex to add that into IL2."

Is this honestly the case or just forum hoo-doo? If this is the case, is it also too complex to add it into PF? Frankly, that would be like stating gun concerntration is too complex to code for the original game.

Enquiring minds . . . etc.

Obi_Kwiet
04-27-2004, 09:45 AM
Oh man... the 90 degree torp diveing runs... this could be worse than muzzle flash... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Zeus-cat
04-27-2004, 10:17 AM
yerpalal,

I am building an IL-2T torpedo bomber campaign (29 missions to be released in 3-4 weeks). I can tell you right now that I am spending 2-3 hours (or longer) per mission modifying flight sizes and waypoints due to the poor AI torpedo bomber performance. 100% accuracy? Not even close. Some of these guys can't hit an unarmed freighter that isn't moving!

I have spent the last 2 nights trying to get mission #13 to work and the AI just won't cooperate. I have 2 grounded freighters and I can't get the AI planes to hit them consistantly. I originally had 3 freighters, but all 3 flights (9 planes) in the attack target the same ship even though each flight was supposed to attack a different ship. I finally deleted one ship and one flight and ordered flight 2 to attack the first ship. My flight will destroy the second ship. In testing flight 2 dropped its torpedoes, but I don't have a clue what they attacked as all 3 planes missed! I'll look at it again tonight.

Zeus-cat

Zeus-cat
04-27-2004, 10:20 AM
Oops. Forgot to mention that I agree with the comment that there needs to be some work done on improving the torpedo bombing experience. I would be glad to share my notes with the PF development team on all of the problems I ahve had with developing this IL-2T campaign.

Zeus-cat

Pentallion
04-27-2004, 10:43 AM
Good post! Torpedos should not be dropped from a greater height than 300m and speed should be very low (can't remember exactly).

In FB you can drop a torp from an He-111 H6 from 5000m. You can dive bomb with torpedo planes.

And the ai can't hit squat. The trick to getting them to hit something is to watch their first run then set up a different ship beyond the target ship in such a line that the ai will hit IT instead. Takes special care to initial and final placement and waypoint speed matching throught the route.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

VW-IceFire
04-27-2004, 10:55 AM
I remember trying to get a Mark 13 torpedo in a Devastator to run being like pure torture in Aces of the Pacific.

Hopefully they recreate that experience here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

yerpalal
04-27-2004, 11:15 AM
Thanks for the input.

My experience goes back to the original IL-2 and I DO assure you that at that point the A-I accuracy was 100% as I too designed IL-2T missions and gave up because it was senseless.

SO, it is not, now, 100%, good news. Maybe I will revisit the issue again.

necrobaron
04-27-2004, 11:28 AM
I sincerely feel the effort should be made to make torp drops realistic. If this(PF) were just a patch or a small add-on,I would understand Oleg not wanting to take the time to write new coding for realistic torps, BUT since PF is essentially a sequal to FB(unlike BoB),I think the time should be taken to implement this change along with other recommended changes that have previously been deemed "too hard and complex to do"(muzzle flash,AI seeing through clouds,etc.,etc.). In my view Pacific Fighters is a perfect opportunity to go back into the game engine(as "hard" as it may be) and fix those things. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Resident_Jock
04-27-2004, 11:58 PM
Ah... Aces of the Pacific. I'm glad that I was a youngin and played with easy settings all around, because I would have to drop like 50 torps on a run to make a single one function properly, hahaha.

Oh, and I wish Oleg's manuals looked like the ones for the Aces games http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

owlwatcher
04-28-2004, 01:27 AM
I do hope time is given to the Bombs ,torpedoes Like "Aces of the pacific had setup where you had to drop the torp correctly or it would not run."
Just like ground pounding is to Il-2 the dive and torpedo planes are to the Pacific.
As for the Ai vs moving ships with russian torpedoes ,Had good luck, any point on compass vs Tirpiz. It must match plane vs ship movements in about 3 minute detail. Il-2ts speed 300-325 height 75-200 with at least afull one minute approach board side to Bomb Point Which sits at where the ship and plane time match.. , lead ship when setting Target about 3 minutes. Watch for fly overs then attacking from other side. Still got the testing mission. Your approach, bomb and exit way point should not change in any manor and be as straight as possible.
Does take time.
Wonder how many the Lexington needs!?!?.

ElAurens
04-28-2004, 05:46 AM
My main concern with torpedos is their damage effect. In AEP an IL2T torpedo run against a Russian "wet cargo" ship (tanker) will get you the graphic of a huge hole in the side of the ship, but no apparent damge effect. A torp into a tanker should start a furious blaze at minimum, or blow the whole thing to bits. And why do torpedo hits amywhere except dead amidships have zero effect?

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

VW-IceFire
04-28-2004, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
My main concern with torpedos is their damage effect. In AEP an IL2T torpedo run against a Russian "wet cargo" ship (tanker) will get you the graphic of a huge hole in the side of the ship, but no apparent damge _effect_. A torp into a tanker should start a furious blaze at minimum, or blow the whole thing to bits. And why do torpedo hits amywhere except dead amidships have zero effect?

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

__BlitzPig_EL__<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually some of the new ships in AEP had more complex DM's including smoke and fire when damaged. Only on the Tirpitz and a few others unfortunately...but present and no doubt will be part of PF as well.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

ulfr1066
04-29-2004, 01:36 AM
i think pelicker's post elsewhere sums up the existing errors in the new damage models. I've reproduced the results in his post below quite a bit and and am fairly amazed. Also the new sub on the pacific island map seems damn impervious to torpedos from the Il2T, despite about a dozen seperate runs and hits I never got one down. I would rate the need for ship models and torpedo models to be addressed as very high for the new crew. If you dont have a good torpedo model and a good ship damage model, why have a good FM for a torpedo bomber? Why make a sim focused on pacific surface attack aircraft if you can't tackle the fundamentals of surface attack in the theater? I would think these models would rate as high a concern or higher than the FM's.
I hope they do address this, or just leave the sim to the zekes and fat ol' ami fighters like all we had in cfs2, i'd still buy it.
http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/Tirpitz_Blast_Wave.jpg
http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v149/msdavis/Tirpitz_Minor_Damage.jpg

[This message was edited by ulfr1066 on Thu April 29 2004 at 01:08 AM.]

CornbreadPattie
04-29-2004, 09:53 AM
why is the a 150 foot crater behind the Tripitz?

ulfr1066
04-29-2004, 10:03 AM
sorry 'bout that, i should have linked into pelickers original post to explain more. These are his screenshots of a mistel striking the BB. I've tried similar missions and the results are usually not spectacularly damaging for the tirpitz even when i plant it mid deck. The crater is a glitch with the new giant mushroom cloud explosion, it seems to leave a crater on water as well as land.

Pentallion
04-30-2004, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CornbreadPattie:
why is the a 150 foot crater behind the Tripitz?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the Tirpitz sailed away from the impact site and even though the impact was upon the ship itself, the crater was modelled on the water as if it were land.

If you hit a moving tank, it would be destroyed and the crater would be there but if you hit a ship and don't sink it, the ship moves on and there is a crater in the water.

Not enough attention to detail and certainly they need to pay attention to the DM of ships and torpedos or else this sim will be rather funky.

http://www.simops.com/249th/sigs/Wildcard.jpg

Fennec_P
05-01-2004, 01:02 PM
Its a floating dirt slick.

Fennec_P
05-01-2004, 01:03 PM
Its a floating dirt slick.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NOT A DOUBLE POST!!!! WHAT A WORLD