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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:42 PM
Please excuse my bad spelling in the eariler post

If you know, and have studied the history of WWII you should know this.

The kill rate of German to Russian planes was 15 to 1 in favor of Germany. Where Germany lost the war was in numbers not quality!

( It was a good thing that Germany lost)

Germany was out produced buy the allies at a factor of 30 to 1 in almost every area of equipment! Tanks, aircraft, guns ect, ect. On the Russian front alone Germany Army was out numbered almost 20 to 1 in manpower. So in any fight where the numbers were even close to even Germany kicked butt.

The Russians and the Allies never had better equipment only numbers.

Germany did lose the war and that is the most important factor.

In this game, to be historically correct the Russians should always out number the Germans. Since this is not possible in Forgotten Battles, what Ubi as done, is given the Russian planes a lot of help, with a very generous interpretation of the specifications of the Russian planes so that they can be completive with the German planes.

This is not historically correct but politically correct, and understandable. Other wise in any game where the number of planes are even, the Russian planes would not do very well at all.

Redwulf__44

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 08:42 PM
Please excuse my bad spelling in the eariler post

If you know, and have studied the history of WWII you should know this.

The kill rate of German to Russian planes was 15 to 1 in favor of Germany. Where Germany lost the war was in numbers not quality!

( It was a good thing that Germany lost)

Germany was out produced buy the allies at a factor of 30 to 1 in almost every area of equipment! Tanks, aircraft, guns ect, ect. On the Russian front alone Germany Army was out numbered almost 20 to 1 in manpower. So in any fight where the numbers were even close to even Germany kicked butt.

The Russians and the Allies never had better equipment only numbers.

Germany did lose the war and that is the most important factor.

In this game, to be historically correct the Russians should always out number the Germans. Since this is not possible in Forgotten Battles, what Ubi as done, is given the Russian planes a lot of help, with a very generous interpretation of the specifications of the Russian planes so that they can be completive with the German planes.

This is not historically correct but politically correct, and understandable. Other wise in any game where the number of planes are even, the Russian planes would not do very well at all.

Redwulf__44

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:18 PM
agreed good post

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 09:38 PM
The more "honest" early war VVS simmers really should consider flying with the inferior tactics they were ordered to fly, and fly them as if they didn't know anything about flying high speed monoplanes. That would make things more realistic than crippling VVS planes to make them easier to shoot down by people who's whining would make real Luftwaffe pilots ashamed.

-- If you know, and have studied the history of WWII you
-- should know this.

When you read about early war German superiority in training, tactics, and leadership, come back and post again. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Oleg leaves it to us to sim this part of air warfare.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 10:17 PM
Redwulf__44 wrote:
- If you know, and have studied the history of WWII
- you should know this.
apparently you haven't understood much from your reading about WWII history

- The kill rate of German to Russian planes was 15 to
- 1 in favor of Germany. Where Germany lost the war
- was in numbers not quality!
not sure about the number... but then what conclusion you can take from this?
Russian pilot experience and skill was globaly much lower than German pilot experience and skill, in flyght simulation, generally, the experience and skills are the same on both sides... your're comparing aples and oranges...

- Germany was out produced buy the allies at a factor
- of 30 to 1 in almost every area of equipment! Tanks,
- aircraft, guns ect, ect. On the Russian front alone
- Germany Army was out numbered almost 20 to 1 in
- manpower. So in any fight where the numbers were
- even close to even Germany kicked butt.
You don't know much about WWII history. On most of the WWII battles on the east front, and this until very late in the war, your numbers are totally wrong. The right numbers were closer to 2:1 to 3:1 in most of the cases.... I can give you the real numbers for most of the big battles on the east front, search and you'll see how much you're wrong.... for example, if you take the battles of Koursk or even much later the battle of Bagration, the manpower advantage was around 2:1 for russians.

- The Russians and the Allies never had better
- equipment only numbers.
Some of the allied equipement was very good, including Russian one... and considered as at least equivalent to its German counterpard... for tanks, take for example IS-2m or SU-100... they were at least as goof as their German couterpart. Germans were still better trained, yes....

-
- In this game, to be historically correct the
- Russians should always out number the Germans. Since
- this is not possible in Forgotten Battles, what Ubi
- as done, is given the Russian planes a lot of help,
- with a very generous interpretation of the
- specifications of the Russian planes so that they
- can be completive with the German planes.
-
- This is not historically correct but politically
- correct, and understandable. Other wise in any game
- where the number of planes are even, the Russian
- planes would not do very well at all.

This statement is totally stupid.... what are you comparing?

you can never see in FB an air combat situation close to what was a real air combat mission in WWII. The usual low altitude dogfight you can see either in dogfights or coop missions is everything except representative of a real air combat situation.... again you're comparing apples and oranges...
If you want to establish somewhat meaningfull statistics (if it's even possible), try to built coops that are close to real missions (well... you can't go very close, but let's assuming you can get somewhat close)... ensure that Russian side are mostly noobs and German side mostly FB aces... be sure each pilote has an assistant that place 10 Pounds lead bars on their arms when they reach high G... and more important.... ensure that the assistants headhoot the pilot with a gun when he's killed in the game.... and that prisoner pilots are sentenced to 4 years jails.
... then... and only then... you could maybe do some comparisons and draw some partial conclusions.


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:00 PM
Can you simulate the effects of putting pilots with less than 50 hours of flight school up against seasoned veterans?

Harry Voyager

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvWP9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84 Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVh BgMt3q2T3BUQ8yjBBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqBy Q/Avatar%202%20500x500%20[final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:06 PM
The russians didn't have better planes, they had planes that where easier to fly!

and the russians had no combat experience, alot of the good officers where killed by stalin, poor tactics where used and their planes where often falling apart in normal flight!


THAT is not and cannot be modelled.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:20 PM
Not directly Harry, but, you can fudge it.

The VVS planes are a bit over done, but not too terribly. The biggest thing with them is the lack of punishment those flying it have from poor cockpits. And there is the radio issue, as well as G and stick forces and so on. The biggest is production quality. The commies had horrid production quality. The Germans had far superior production quality even on the Do-335 as it was being produced in the last days of the war. If VVS pilots here had to deal with those problems thing would look a lot different online.

Instead, we have optimum design simulation, minus all their detriments and thus, eliminating many of the LW advantages. Using only soviet doc's doesn't help one bit either. It leads to LW planes still not getting thier proper due and planes like the P-47 getting shafted.

I fear for the P-51. I have a bad feeling we will get mega-hosed on that one. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:24 PM
HarryVoyager wrote:
- Can you simulate the effects of putting pilots with
- less than 50 hours of flight school up against
- seasoned veterans?


Agreed.

I aint a pimp no mo. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:34 PM
same thing at the pasific, USA kicked *** there cause of production capability. more and more planes/ships appeared day by day, while Jap‚¬īs were gettin low on eguipment. in the start of the war US had more planes in many fights there than the Japs, bout twiec as much. still Japs were able to get kills from P-40, P39:s and Buffalos.

same thing with Germany against allies, they were outnumbered really badly. Still they were able to survive so long against masses.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:36 PM
Agreed again

I aint a pimp no mo. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:39 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- And there is the radio issue,

Hard to model that, which is a shame (at least online,
it could be modelled offline).

- forces and so on. The biggest is production quality.
- The commies had horrid production quality.

I think the proper term is 'loyal workers of the Soviet
Union' :-) . The term 'commie' is a bit pejorative as
most were no more communists than the Germans were all
Nazis, or the Spanish after 1939 suddenly all became
Fascists.

- The
- Germans had far superior production quality even on
- the Do-335 as it was being produced in the last days
- of the war.

Production quality of the K4 suffered, apparently, with
production being very distributed (hence some of the variations in late model G and K designs) with wooden
parts suffering.

- Instead, we have optimum design simulation,

Can you imagine the nightmare on these boards if your
plane was basic stats +- build quality variations. People
would be complaining constantly about level acceleration, roll rates, etc!!!! It would be nice to have it modelled
though, and for campaigns (offline and online) have the
age of the plane count too.

There are a whole series of things that aren't modelled,
but the biggest one is FEAR! Personally I suggest for
online campaigns a nominal donation each time your
pilot 'dies' to a trust fund, to be split among genre-
related charities (e.g. some going to the Tuskegee
charity mentioned on here a while ago). It's not fear,
but it encourages you not to 'die' and generates benefit
to others.

- I fear for the P-51. I have a bad feeling we will
- get mega-hosed on that one.

Why? The P-39 isn't hosed. The B239 isn't hosed.

XyZspineZyX
09-06-2003, 11:58 PM
m_preddy wrote:
-
- HarryVoyager wrote:
-- Can you simulate the effects of putting pilots with
-- less than 50 hours of flight school up against
-- seasoned veterans?
-
-
- Agreed.

You agree to what? Harry's question?

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/WAR-08.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 12:21 AM
An excellent point on training and experience. Many pilots in WW2 at BoB and Russian front had 50 hours maybe...

There is no doubt what so ever, that most experienced online pilots with thousands of online kills, can readily take on any new pilot with a grossly disadvantaged plane... even at 1 v 2, 3 or 4 odds.

However, at HL and online, mostly experienced flyers play, and so this HUGE "historical" factor is gone.. and in fact, I think is a far greater "miss" on the intent to recreate "realism".... than ANY plane FM or DM "issue".

By a factor of 10 more important.
HarryVoyager wrote:
- Can you simulate the effects of putting pilots with
- less than 50 hours of flight school up against
- seasoned veterans?
-
- Harry Voyager
-
- <img
- src="http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0YQDLAswcqmIpvW
- P9dLzZVayPXOmo6IJ16aURujNfs4dDETH84Q6eIkCbWQemjqF6
- O8ZfvzlsvUUauJyy9GYnKM6!o3fu!kBnWVhBgMt3q2T3BUQ8yj
- BBqECLxFaqXVV5U2kWiSIlq1s6VoaVvRqByQ/Avatar%202%20
- 500x500%20(final).jpg?dc=4675409848259594077">



" The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down ": General Chuck Yeager, USAF, describing his first confrontation with a Me262 - - -
" Aggressiveness was a fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting ": Captain David McCampbell, USN, leading U.S. Navy ace in W.W.II.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:14 AM
AaronGT wrote:
- BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
-- And there is the radio issue,
-
- Hard to model that, which is a shame (at least
- online,
- it could be modelled offline).

Not really. Sieze the sound hardware. Easy enough to do. Prevent other apps from accessing it and provide in game commo. Then deny it to planes that didn't have it.



- I think the proper term is 'loyal workers of the
- Soviet
- Union' :-) . The term 'commie' is a bit pejorative
- as
- most were no more communists than the Germans were
- all
- Nazis, or the Spanish after 1939 suddenly all became
- Fascists.

Well, the problem is that everyone seems to think that all Germans were Nazi's (many still think that way about real, modern Germans) and forget that the sov's were communist (and that stalin was far worse than hitler, but n/m that).

Just habitual display of disgust. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- Production quality of the K4 suffered, apparently,
- with
- production being very distributed (hence some of the
- variations in late model G and K designs) with
- wooden
- parts suffering.

Compared to what though. I said superior because it was a relative term. However, depite the claims from Oleg, we are not getting optimum LW performance. We are getting performance relating to VVS official accounts/docs of A2A successes and poor testing of damaged, tired, captured equipment.


- Can you imagine the nightmare on these boards if
- your
- plane was basic stats +- build quality variations.
- People
- would be complaining constantly about level
- acceleration, roll rates, etc!!!! It would be nice
- to have it modelled
- though, and for campaigns (offline and online) have
- the
- age of the plane count too.

Yes, but this is where it's up to the developer to explain his actions. Not to say he's obligated, but, to make his data and reasons public, it would shut a lot of people (possibly even me) up. He won't do that though. Leaves a very bad impression. And leaves everything open to complaining.


- There are a whole series of things that aren't
- modelled,
- but the biggest one is FEAR! Personally I suggest
- for
- online campaigns a nominal donation each time your
- pilot 'dies' to a trust fund, to be split among
- genre-
- related charities (e.g. some going to the Tuskegee
- charity mentioned on here a while ago). It's not
- fear,
- but it encourages you not to 'die' and generates
- benefit
- to others.

Very true. An ingame penalty would be nice. Lose all points at death (you taking a new pilot after all) and put people into the negatives for shooting bailed pilots and crew. Make people want to keep their pilots alive and also make bailing a viable option, all at the same time.

I like your idea too. Put X amount into a pot and then get back that deposit, less your deaths, at the end. Hard to get people to be honest enough to pay each time. lol


-- I fear for the P-51. I have a bad feeling we will
-- get mega-hosed on that one.
-
- Why? The P-39 isn't hosed. The B239 isn't hosed.

Ah yes, but they used and liked the P-39. Big difference. The Brewster.....an enigma. Small and light, probably just getting a free ride of the code that makes the P-11 and polikarpovs so good.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:45 AM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Compared to what though. I said superior because it
- was a relative term. However, depite the claims from
- Oleg, we are not getting optimum LW performance. We
- are getting performance relating to VVS official
- accounts/docs of A2A successes and poor testing of
- damaged, tired, captured equipment.

Wrong...
FW190 data used for FB comes from factory doc
most Bf109 datas used in FB were provided by Butch2k, and are not compiled only from VVS datas, but from many others, uncluding germans.
In case you don't know Butch2k is French and is writing a book about the Bf109.

- Very true. An ingame penalty would be nice. Lose all
- points at death (you taking a new pilot after all)
- and put people into the negatives for shooting
- bailed pilots and crew. Make people want to keep
- their pilots alive and also make bailing a viable
- option, all at the same time.

Far not enough to simulate fear and the need to complete objectives, to obey orders, etc.... game time isn't anything like war time. (And my guess is that we're all happy to be gaming...)


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:54 AM
Anyone who would expect this sim to acurately reflect historical reality is not thinking right. There is no way to duplicate the conditions that dictated tactics, and the "life on the line factor". In this sim you know you can hit refly and do it again..in WW2 those pilots didnt have that option. The times and logistic conditions had a lot to do with dictating the tactics used by any one side at any given time. To expect all those conditions to be reproduced in this sim is just....naive at best. Looking back with hindsight we can see a lot but considering the times and conditions of the day how can we possible even expect this sim to acurately mirror those conditions? The best we can hope for is flight models that are as accurate as possible which we have.....forget about 1.1..... Just the fact that we cant die, have no G effects other than the blackout (no difficulty grabbing the stick however you want to in a tight G turn etc.) , and have no fear/physiological/phsychological ramifications of our actions alone is a huge factor in how we fly. This sim is not real life and anyone who expects it to mirror it...in any other way other than basic flight models is kidding themselves.

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 02:01 AM
Sorry don't agree, that's quite a blanket statement to make (and far to simple a conclusion IMO)

-The Russians and the Allies never had better
-equipment only numbers.

reinforced by another such statement..

- So in any fight where the numbers were
- even close to even Germany kicked butt.

Or was the Luftwaffe ounumbered in the BoB or at Malta, no it was the RAF who were outnumbered. With these examples I am not saying the British or any of one of the allies, or even any one country had the best equipment. Most countries at some time during the war, I'm certain, had what they 'considered' the best, but 1 to 1 comparisions cannot work in most cases, unless of course you have the same operator utilize both 'sides' equipment, employing the same level of skill/experience to each, under the same conditions.

- The Russians and the Allies never had better
- equipment only numbers.

Ask yourself why, but don't forget another important point, Germnay could have had far more in production in the first half of the war than it did, much of German industry was still producing civilian goods, it wasn't believed necessary to go to full scale war production until too late; the resources were there for quite a while, so was the capacity to produce, only later on during the war was Germany denied these. And more equipment and men could well have changed history as we now know it.

IMO the forces of the allies and axis, all had some very good, and some bad equipment.

Regards Rook/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

ZG77_Nagual
09-07-2003, 02:08 AM
I have no problem with vvs 'uber' planes in the 190s and 109s. The perspective expressed in the lead of this thread seems, in all honesty, uninformed and oddly motivated.

It is an historical fact that the la7/5fn and late yaks were superior turn fighters and very competitive in all areas of combat at medium altitudes. One can reasonably say the la7 was one of the finest dogfighters to see action in ww2. Fighting an aircraft such as this - and the yak3, requires tactics that exploit the strengths of aircraft such as the 190 - while avoiding those of the opponent. It's as simple as that. Utilizing historical tactics in German aircraft I see the results I expect - likewise if I make an error against a skilled opponent who knows his plane - it is exploited in ways I expect based on my understanding of the strengths of his aircraft. To my mind this supports the conclusion that this sim is well and fairly modeled. I would be happy to go into more detail regarding effective tactics against fast opponents in aircraft that have superior turn and static climb if you want - but based on this and your other posts - I suspect you are only interested in criticizing the developers and slupporting your ill-formed conclusion that the simm is somehow artificially unbalanced. Happy to be proven wrong.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 02:27 AM
pegase rama, Oleg *said* he used factory data. The in game FM doesn't match up. Which are you then, LW hater or Oleg-worshipper?


Bearcat - Simply because we can't truly recreate fear of dying doesn't mean to simply not bother at all. That's ridiculous. In all fairness, for a simulation to be called such, it must strive to do everything possible within the limitations of it's interface (in this case, the PC). To that end, things like the penalties I mentioned for dying and shooting pilots in their chutes would go a good distance. Would it truly duplicate the conditions? No. But it'd be far better than what we have now. It would also be something applicable across the board. Also, the radio suggestion I made would go very far in dealing with duplicating that aspect as well. People could use phones, sure, but, that's an extra step and a lot of effort. Not to mention beyond the control of the dev team. I think these things should be implemented. It woudl change the whole feel of the game.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:08 AM
Rook: In my knowledge, apologize me if I am wrong, the RAF didn't win the BoB alone. The big factors of BoB were the extreme dumbness of Goering, that staffel that bombed London by mistake and the RAF Bomber Command that retaliated and made hitler send the entire LW force to bomb london and leave the airfields alone.
If that Staffel didn't bomb london, and the LW continued to hammer and maul the airfields, maybe you would be speaking german today /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

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XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:10 AM
This is interesting because on a History channel program I just watched yesterday about the development of the Air Force they said that in the early days of WWII the Americans were clearly outnumbered by the Japanese in terms of equipment and planes. I am not sure who to believe now.

Germany and Japan clearly had the best planes and pilots at the beginning of the war. I don't think that can be said about the end of the war necessarily. I do think that German engineering was ahead of anybody else by and large but for some reason the Germans failed to push development on the things that would help them most like the ME-262's and the Horten (sp?) flying wing. Of course an atomic bomb could have helped as well.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:46 AM
FiNaZZi, AFAIK it was just the RAF, but thats not to say it was just British, or even RAF personel. I know other nationalities were involved, my point was the equipment, not the men's nationalities. You say other factor's were involved and I agree which shows my point about judging whose equipment was the best. I would think most people would agree over the main reasons why the luftwaffe lost the BoB, but numbers, was not one of them when it started. Which is the point that I was using to counter the conclusions of the original poster, where blanket comments were used.

You misunderstood my point, and as far as speaking german now, if mistakes hadn't been made, IMO wouldn't happen for many reasons, but that's OT./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:47 AM
chris455 wrote:
-
- m_preddy wrote:
--
-- HarryVoyager wrote:
--- Can you simulate the effects of putting pilots with
--- less than 50 hours of flight school up against
--- seasoned veterans?
--
--
-- Agreed.
-
-
- You agree to what? Harry's question?
-



Please dont question what I say.

I aint a pimp no mo. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

ZG77_Nagual
09-07-2003, 04:40 AM
Redwulf - I just did a few offline flights in vvs planes. I have to say you are really off the mark saying these are superior to the german planes - clearly your flying style must not be adapted to the strengths of the german aircraft.

While the vvs birds have great climb, accell and turn they do not match the high speed handling of the german planes - they cannot sustain high dive speeds - thus their zoom suffers. Elevator authority at high speeds is inferior to both 109 and 190. Rate of fire and accuracy of the vvs guns is perhaps better - a very short burst is very effective if rightly aimed, and less lead is required - but this seems historically accurate. I remain baffled by your allegations.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:02 AM
I dont know about the under or over modeling. I would be more inclined to think, bad technical data or the interpretation of it. As far as German engineering goes...well, everyone should know that Germany has always built better equipment. I agree with the statement about numbers winning the war. Its true still to this date. Germans build better machines and tools.

...and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward,
for there you have been and there you long to return.
~leonardo de vinci

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:05 AM
Yes, the Nazis outnumbered the Brits in the BoB with all the help they had included and they almost won but then even that took months without Britain being subdued.

Testimony of British and their Allies planes, training, courage and resolve.

When Goering asked Galland what he needed to win the BoB, Galland told him to get him Spitfires! That is from Galland himself.

The Japanese Navy had more and better ships than the US did until past the mid-war. The Japanese soldiers were always highly trained and elite by any standards then and now. The Japanese had more and better planes in the start of the war and for a while. Their pilots were better trained in the start and held an advantage for a while.
But they had some "bad luck" attributable to strategic errors here and there. They had some "bad luck" in tactics too. They had victories and then things went increasingly bad. They didn't catch on that their Naval and Diplomatic codes had been broken. That and some "good luck" for the US kept the Pacific unconquered until new ships, planes and reinforcements could make the final push to Japan possible.

Yamamoto had said that Japan would reign for how long before losing? Was it six months or was it more?

The Axis countries picked a fight against the world. Yes they ended up outproduced and outnumbered. Duh! germany only did as well in the start as it did because the Allies weren't ready. Same for Japan. Same for Italy. Had things gone different in Russia? Same could be said in Holland and France, 1940. There WERE no Supermen. That's a myth, the myth that let the Axis leader talk their countries into near suicide.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:36 AM
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- I remain baffled by
- your allegations.


I'm also baffled by how inaccurate is the perfomance of LW and VVS planes. Simply unbelievable!! not a single Bf-109 has it's original climb rate.

G10 climbs to 1000m (from 300km/h, 270-280km/h sustained) in 49sec, which means a climb rate of 20.4m/s.
F4 does the same thing in 57sec, for an average climb rate of 17.5m/s.
Yak1b climbs to 1000m in 51sec, average climb 19.6m/s.
La7 -//- in 38sec, average climb 26.3m/s.

La7 (2 cannons variant) turns in 15 sec per 360deg turn (320kmh sustained above the sea).


<center> http://www.stormbirds.com/images/discussion-main.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:47 AM
Redwulf_xy
-- well, everyone should know that Germany has always built
-- better equipment.

We shall agree on "more stylish" equipment, but field maintenence in the mud may be another matter.


Demodernization of German Army in World War 2

---> http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content4.php/cid=68 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


- Two-thirds of the German infantry divisions ordered into
- Russia in 1941 were unmechanized. Their wagons were
- hitched to German draught horses that proved unable to
- survive the poor fodder and winter weather in Russia;

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:49 AM
I never said the Germans were supermen, just that they had better equipment! Don't know how Japan got in to this? Never said anything about Japan!

When Germany invaded France they were out numbered by the British and French both in men and equipment,in the number of tanks Aircraft ect ect. Until Dunkirk and the British were forced back to their Island and left alone the Germans were out numbered.

What saved England was the British Navy and 20 miles of sea not their Airforce. The British had a far better Navy and control of the sea!
The Air attacks against England were slowly destroying the British Airforce and would have done so, had not Hitler started a second front, by attacking Russia. At which point Hitler with drew the German airforce, and the Germans were again out numbered and remained out numbered the rest of the war!
The only reason a small country like Germany, so badly out mumber in equipment and men lasted so long, and almost won, (Thank God they did not win!) was the supperior quality of their equipment and traning!

The above is fact and true!

The winners of the War in Europe would like to think it was won because of our better equipment, training, and brave men, and right was on our side!

But it ain't so, We won because of attrition, and having alot more of everything, Guns, men, aircraft tanks and bullets!
WWMaxGunz wrote:
- Yes, the Nazis outnumbered the Brits in the BoB with
- all the help they had included and they almost won
- but then even that took months without Britain being
- subdued.
-
- Testimony of British and their Allies planes,
- training, courage and resolve.
-
- When Goering asked Galland what he needed to win the
- BoB, Galland told him to get him Spitfires! That is
- from Galland himself.
-
- The Japanese Navy had more and better ships than the
- US did until past the mid-war. The Japanese
- soldiers were always highly trained and elite by any
- standards then and now. The Japanese had more and
- better planes in the start of the war and for a
- while. Their pilots were better trained in the
- start and held an advantage for a while.
- But they had some "bad luck" attributable to
- strategic errors here and there. They had some "bad
- luck" in tactics too. They had victories and then
- things went increasingly bad. They didn't catch on
- that their Naval and Diplomatic codes had been
- broken. That and some "good luck" for the US kept
- the Pacific unconquered until new ships, planes and
- reinforcements could make the final push to Japan
- possible.
-
- Yamamoto had said that Japan would reign for how
- long before losing? Was it six months or was it
- more?
-
-
- The Axis countries picked a fight against the world.
- Yes they ended up outproduced and outnumbered.
- Duh! germany only did as well in the start as it
- did because the Allies weren't ready. Same for
- Japan. Same for Italy. Had things gone different
- in Russia? Same could be said in Holland and
- France, 1940. There WERE no Supermen. That's a
- myth, the myth that let the Axis leader talk their
- countries into near suicide.
-
-
-
- Neal
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:01 AM
I never said that the Russian planes were better than German but just the opposite.
German planes were better than Russian.
Only that Russia and allied planes badly out numbered the German planes, and that is why they won, not because of better planes!
ZG77_Nagual wrote:
- Redwulf - I just did a few offline flights in vvs
- planes. I have to say you are really off the mark
- saying these are superior to the german planes -
- clearly your flying style must not be adapted to the
- strengths of the german aircraft.
-
- While the vvs birds have great climb, accell and
- turn they do not match the high speed handling of
- the german planes - they cannot sustain high dive
- speeds - thus their zoom suffers. Elevator authority
- at high speeds is inferior to both 109 and 190. Rate
- of fire and accuracy of the vvs guns is perhaps
- better - a very short burst is very effective if
- rightly aimed, and less lead is required - but this
- seems historically accurate. I remain baffled by
- your allegations.
-
<img
- src="http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47jane
- s.jpg">
-

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:02 AM
We won't argue the techie engineering successes, as the Germans had generally the best ((edit:: fancy)) examples--from an engineers point of view. I will argue USA had the best engineering from a combat pilot's perspective. But by focusing on the factory tech engineering alone, you are making the same mistake the Germans made.



Demodernization of German Army in World War 2

---> http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content4.php/cid=68





Message Edited on 09/07/0305:09AM by LEXX_Luthor

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:13 AM
I never said anything about Japan!
In the war in Europe the only time Germany was not out number was during the BoB! That only lasted until the invasion of Russia when once again Germany was out number and it remained that way until the end of the war!
England was saved by the Royal Navy and 20 miles of sea not the RAF, although the Raf gave a good accout of themselfs they were slowy lossing the air war. What saved the RAF was the withdrawal of the German Airforce to fight in Russia!
Bucinda wrote:
- This is interesting because on a History channel
- program I just watched yesterday about the
- development of the Air Force they said that in the
- early days of WWII the Americans were clearly
- outnumbered by the Japanese in terms of equipment
- and planes. I am not sure who to believe now.
-
- Germany and Japan clearly had the best planes
- and pilots at the beginning of the war. I don't
- think that can be said about the end of the war
- necessarily. I do think that German engineering was
- ahead of anybody else by and large but for some
- reason the Germans failed to push development on the
- things that would help them most like the ME-262's
- and the Horten (sp?) flying wing. Of course an
- atomic bomb could have helped as well.
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:14 AM
Good point and well said

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:16 AM
very well said! and good point all!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:22 AM
Many of the aircraft do not meet the specks as ubi out lined in, view objects, view aircraft, view text. If they did there would be no problems

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:27 AM
in a few fronts the Germans did have a numbers advantage but over all the Germans were almost always out numbered

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:30 AM
on a few fronts at different times Germany did have a numbers advantage but over all and in most cases Germany was always out numbered!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:30 AM
Redwulf__44 wrote:
- Please excuse my bad spelling in the eariler post
-
- If you know, and have studied the history of WWII
- you should know this.
-


With all due respect Sir...I am sorry...BUT who knows and studied would not post something like this. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
And no, i am not getting into this discussion again, what`s the point.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:35 AM
I aggree with most of your statement except" flight models that are as accurate as possible" we have never had this and never will ubi must make the allied aircraft competitive, or no one would ever fly them, and almost everyone would be flying German planes!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:37 AM
well said!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:38 AM
Dude are you ok? Talking to yourself? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:38 AM
all of this is useless talk,., oleg messed with the german planes on purpose to keep allied players happy with online play.. he made most of the allied planes 20% better while nerfing the german planes about 20% in general. he wants the allied players to buy his games now and in the future...because if the game was historical correct.. the german flyers would be burning the allied players out of the sky wholesale

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:39 AM
In Before The Ban /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:53 AM
Very, very true, my point to a tee! put very well! with a lot less words!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:56 AM
I am not really refering so much to the American planes, as my commit was mostly directed at the Russian planes

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 07:48 AM
Dude!!!

The real reason why the Germans lost the war is the
Germans like you are.Who believe in myths and lost the
touch with reality.
Germans lost because Allies had better or atleast as
good planes,tanks,etc.And yes!They did outnumber the
Germans.But whose problem is that?
Dude! You sound like a bad dancer who is trying to
explain that his balls do not let him to become a good
one.
And where did you get the ratio kill between the Germans
and the USSR.Is that your pure fantasy or you can prove
it?

Redwulf__44 wrote:
- Please excuse my bad spelling in the eariler post
-
- If you know, and have studied the history of WWII
- you should know this.
-
- The kill rate of German to Russian planes was 15 to
- 1 in favor of Germany. Where Germany lost the war
- was in numbers not quality!
-
- ( It was a good thing that Germany lost)
-
- Germany was out produced buy the allies at a factor
- of 30 to 1 in almost every area of equipment! Tanks,
- aircraft, guns ect, ect. On the Russian front alone
- Germany Army was out numbered almost 20 to 1 in
- manpower. So in any fight where the numbers were
- even close to even Germany kicked butt.
-
- The Russians and the Allies never had better
- equipment only numbers.
-
- Germany did lose the war and that is the most
- important factor.
-
- In this game, to be historically correct the
- Russians should always out number the Germans. Since
- this is not possible in Forgotten Battles, what Ubi
- as done, is given the Russian planes a lot of help,
- with a very generous interpretation of the
- specifications of the Russian planes so that they
- can be completive with the German planes.
-
- This is not historically correct but politically
- correct, and understandable. Other wise in any game
- where the number of planes are even, the Russian
- planes would not do very well at all.
-
- Redwulf__44
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:10 AM
There is an interesting nugget of Truth from the Noob that you don't hear much about on flight sim boards...

Redwulf_xy
-- England was saved by the Royal Navy and 20 miles of sea not the RAF...

Well said and good point. Half of WAR is deterrence and the RN was hysterically succesful at that mission. If there was no channel, the German Army may have kept going into England, although we would see a more intense frontline air battle than we saw between France and Germany. Ground support from RAF is open to question, as it was for all air forces in 1940 except Luftwaffe.

Now, where was that superior engineered German Navy?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 01:41 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- pegase rama, Oleg *said* he used factory data. The
- in game FM doesn't match up. Which are you then, LW
- hater or Oleg-worshipper?

For the Fw190 it does match... but maybe you don't have the right data?

... and... I and my squad fly LW...
(so another stupid statement from you)


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 02:17 PM
EURO_Snoopy, where are you?

This thread should be moved to General Discussion or locked. It is nothing to do with your suggested "ORR Guidlines"

Regards.



----------------
"Fuerza y Honor"

EAF_T_Lupin

ZG77_Nagual
09-07-2003, 03:14 PM
Since I read this thread I've made a point of flying 190s and 109s against vvs birds on and offline. Also flying the la7 and yak3 for comparison. All I can say - and I know it's a cliche' - is you guys who think the german planes are inferior need to change your tactics.
This topic - based as it is on the premise that oleg has intentionally biased the flight models - is ridiculous and insulting. I have tested all the planes in question - I cannot even use my customary tactics in the russian planes because they fall apart! At high speeds there is not contest!

I unequivocally disagree that there is biased modeling - and I base this on my experience dogfighting on and offline since FB1.1b came out. In fact in the original il2 the 109 was the best all round dogfighter - though I prefered the 190a5.

Anyway, I'm done with this absurd topic.

You guys need practice

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:38 PM
the reason german lost the war was because everything they made became far to complicated and was 2 prone to brealking down the simple machines like the T-34 but i think the main reaso was because thier war machine was esgined to move fast and take control not to slowly slug it out

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 03:50 PM
pegase_rama wrote:
- For the Fw190 it does match... but maybe you don't
- have the right data?
-
- ... and... I and my squad fly LW...
- (so another stupid statement from you)

Yet another worshipper. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:37 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Yet another worshipper.

And another "if you don't agree with me, you're a worshipper" stupidity...

I play IL2 since the demo (and other flight sim before...)
I wrote my share of critics on this forum (before it turned to a player ego fighting room) and I still dislike a lot of FM parts (like arcadish stall and spins).
I'm also able to see when statements are blatantly wrong.

yours were wrong for Bf109 (and ask the data provider Butch2k, which isn't part of Maddox:1C team)
and it's wrong for the Fw190 (use the published factory datas and do your tests for max speed, climb rate, roll rate, for the rest you don't have in FB accurate tools for right measurements... then you'll see that factory data are more than met with FB)

There are lot's of stuff to criticize on this sim to help make it better... it does not help when peoples like you add some noise with unfounded critics


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 04:43 PM
Add noise. Yeah, noise like claiming the LW planes are being modeled properly. Or that anything is modeled properly.

It's convenient for you to claim it's nothing more than a case of disagreement, but, you are so star-crossed by the hype that you can't see what's going on. That's a worshipper. Plane and simple. It just hurts to think of oneself that way. I understand.

Next you'll be telling me that the VVS planes are all modeled correctly. Please. Get real.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 05:33 PM
The German Navy, did have better ships, Case in point the Bismark vs the Hood, but again never in the numbers needed to take command of Sea, or overcome the British Navy. How ever they came very close with their Uboats.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:00 PM
You are totaly wrong about the quaility of equipement.
We Americans never had better equipment only numbers

For example tanks.
The front line American tank was the Sherman, or as the GI tankers called it the Ronson Lighter! The Sherman's main gun would not even penetrate A German Tiger tank, where as the Sherman got its name, Ronson Lighter, because it would light up and catch fire the first time everytime it was hit just like the cigarette lighter made by Ronson. We won with numbers, for every Tiger tank there were 10 Sherman tanks.

As for aircraft, the same story, Germany had the first jets, that were better than any aircraft that we Americans ever had in the air until afer WWII, but again Germany never had enough numbers to make a difference! The examples like this through out the War on equipment are to numberus to mention!

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:06 PM
BlitzPig_DDT wrote:
- Add noise. Yeah, noise like claiming the LW planes
- are being modeled properly. Or that anything is
- modeled properly.
-
- It's convenient for you to claim it's nothing more
- than a case of disagreement, but, you are so
- star-crossed by the hype that you can't see what's
- going on. That's a worshipper. Plane and simple. It
- just hurts to think of oneself that way. I
- understand.
-
- Next you'll be telling me that the VVS planes are
- all modeled correctly. Please. Get real.

another forum-fighter... in the category "I never read what other write and my sarcasms are my best and only arguments"

hope you still have some time to fly and enjoy the game...


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:07 PM
I am not German. I am very much an American I was born in Louisville Kentucky and am a Vietnam Vet. I served 2 tours in Nam for my country! After which I went to college got a Degree in History!
Gustoy wrote:
-
- Dude!!!
-
-
-
- The real reason why the Germans lost the war is
- the
-
- Germans like you are.Who believe in myths and lost
- the
-
- touch with reality.
-
- Germans lost because Allies had better or atleast
- as
-
- good planes,tanks,etc.And yes!They did outnumber
- the
-
- Germans.But whose problem is that?
-
- Dude! You sound like a bad dancer who is trying
- to
-
- explain that his balls do not let him to become a
- good
-
- one.
-
- And where did you get the ratio kill between the
- Germans
-
- and the USSR.Is that your pure fantasy or you can
- prove
-
- it?
-
-
- Redwulf__44 wrote:
-- Please excuse my bad spelling in the eariler post
--
-- If you know, and have studied the history of WWII
-- you should know this.
--
-- The kill rate of German to Russian planes was 15 to
-- 1 in favor of Germany. Where Germany lost the war
-- was in numbers not quality!
--
-- ( It was a good thing that Germany lost)
--
-- Germany was out produced buy the allies at a factor
-- of 30 to 1 in almost every area of equipment! Tanks,
-- aircraft, guns ect, ect. On the Russian front alone
-- Germany Army was out numbered almost 20 to 1 in
-- manpower. So in any fight where the numbers were
-- even close to even Germany kicked butt.
--
-- The Russians and the Allies never had better
-- equipment only numbers.
--
-- Germany did lose the war and that is the most
-- important factor.
--
-- In this game, to be historically correct the
-- Russians should always out number the Germans. Since
-- this is not possible in Forgotten Battles, what Ubi
-- as done, is given the Russian planes a lot of help,
-- with a very generous interpretation of the
-- specifications of the Russian planes so that they
-- can be completive with the German planes.
--
-- This is not historically correct but politically
-- correct, and understandable. Other wise in any game
-- where the number of planes are even, the Russian
-- planes would not do very well at all.
--
-- Redwulf__44
--
--
-
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 06:38 PM
Redwulf__44 wrote:
- For example tanks.
- The front line American tank was the Sherman, or as
- the GI tankers called it the Ronson Lighter! The
- Sherman's main gun would not even penetrate A German
- Tiger tank, where as the Sherman got its name,
- Ronson Lighter, because it would light up and catch
- fire the first time everytime it was hit just like
- the cigarette lighter made by Ronson. We won with
- numbers, for every Tiger tank there were 10 Sherman
- tanks.

This is a simplistic way to present the facts.
Overall, yes the German tanks were superior...(and I'm not thinking about the Tiger (PzVI) who was too slow to be a real good battle tank, but about the Panther (PzV) who probably was the best WWII Tank)
But even then, on the Dompaire battle for example, 2 regiment of Sherman M4A2 (and there not the best Shermans) defeated a detachement composed of 2 companies of Panthers and 2 compamies of PzIVH.... mostly because the German tank crews were inexperienced (wich was the case for most of the german tank crews at the end of the war)

And the Shermans had some quality too, they were reasonably quick and maneuvrable, reliable (more than German tanks who had often engine or clutch failures)
The Sherman "Firefly" (british version with a 17pdr gun (76mmLL))had enough punch to defeat any German tank, except maybe the frontal armor of the PzVIB (KingTiger)
The Sherman M4A3E2 and M4A3E2(L) had a very good frontal armor, almost equivalent to the Panther one, and for the (L) version, a very good gun too.

There are multiple version of the Sherman, so it's very hard to generalize about its qualities and defaults and to reduct them to some GI's general comments.

In Europe, the M26 Pershing saw action too... and it was a very good tank.

Saying that the Germans had the best equipment and lost only because they were totally outnumbered.... is at least oversimplistic


Ou Vais-je?
Ou Cours-Je?
Dans quel Etat j'Erre?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 08:11 PM
You are right. It may be a bit oversimplistic but not by much! I did not want to discuss all of WWII just trying to make a point!

Most people have no idea, or real concept of what happened in WWII. Most know only that we won, we were the good guys, and the Germans were the bad guys, and of course they know because of what they see in the movies.

They assume we won because of our supeior equipment, training, ect,ect. They don't know or understand what a really close thing it was, and how close we came to losing. So close in fact, it scares me when I think about it, and what might have been.

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 09:47 PM
Redwulf__44 wrote:
- I am not German. I am very much an American I was
- born in Louisville Kentucky and am a Vietnam Vet. I
- served 2 tours in Nam for my country! After which I
- went to college got a Degree in History!
- Gustoy wrote:


You were born in America. Grew up eating apple pie. Joined the military and served in Vietnam. You were so patriotic you volunteered for a second tour. You came home and went to college. And despite the late start you got a degree in history. And after all that, you still can't spell "comment?"

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 10:40 PM
people do typos on boards all the time.. hes not being graded here.. I mess up all the time and I have a math degree (teach math part time at a Jr college).. are you some kinda spelling *****?

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 10:47 PM
gwalker99 wrote:
- people do typos on boards all the time.. hes not
- being graded here.. I mess up all the time and I
- have a math degree (teach math part time at a Jr
- college).. are you some kinda spelling *****?


I think that whole thing is a troll post.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/corsairs.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-07-2003, 11:33 PM
i dont know man.. anybody who puts a monkey as thier little post icon there on the top left... think about it.. you like monkeys that much. you have a big monkey painted on the side of your car door? you make your girlfriend wear a T-shirt with a monkey head on it to? whats your deal with monkeys Mr chimp?

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 02:07 AM
gwalker99 wrote:
- i dont know man.. anybody who puts a monkey as thier
- little post icon there on the top left... think
- about it.. you like monkeys that much. you have a
- big monkey painted on the side of your car door?
- you make your girlfriend wear a T-shirt with a
- monkey head on it to? whats your deal with monkeys
- Mr chimp?
-
-

I think the real questions are:
why are YOU so obsessed with his affinity for simians?

and

why are you prejudiced against monkeys? It's a picture, don't get all huffy. It's a funny little thing, not a profound comment on existence...



Redwulf 44:

OK, let me understand...politics, not history...uh, where's your point about politics? I must have missed it, but you seem to be saying that FB "evens up the odds", which I guess i could construe as political correctness.

Well, when I studied the eastern Front, I read stories about how officers in the Red Army got lined up and randomly shot by their own superiors as a motivator for combat performance. OK, now think about THIS: when I fly as a VVS pilot, and my squadron leaders says, "Where the hell are you?! Stay on leader's course!" I have zero fear of being shot when I land. They did what they were told to. Fly a VVS campaign for yourself, and adhere STRICTLY to your leader's commands. See how you do!

Some things are not simmed in FB, like: you have a choice to disobey. You can abandon your element leader whenever you like and not get sent to Stalingrad to fight in the streets.



Message Edited on 09/08/0302:08AM by BBB462cid

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 09:12 AM
Hi Redwulf 44,

I think you drew yourself a wrong picture of the Luftwaffe and its planes. I don't know which books you read, but here is what I can tell from my books.

1. German engines had a lot of teething problems, a few examples :

The early marks of FW190A had an engine with a very short lifespan. I have read something like 10 hours. Irt seems that the problem was solved only with the FW190A4, and a drastic limitation of abuse on the engine. Later on, it was possible to have more reliable engines, but this was possible with an extensive use of material that Germany could not afford in great quantities (such as Chrome).

The Bf109G early marks had an engine prone to engine fire. The problem was only solved with the BF109G6.

Note that when the Allies tried to introduce new engines, they faced analog problems : Napier Sabre, Bristol Centaurus come to mind. The VVS had also a lot of problem with the MF107...

2. German planes were not that "well built" :

When new factories were ordered to build spare parts for new planes, the quality was not as expected. Once again, it took some time for this factories to produce good spare part. I can produce a report from the technical officer of JG26 proving that Fieseler ailerons were not good.

Another example, after the war, the Normandie-Niemen flew French built FW190A8. They flew them for a very short time, because the plane were seen as dangerous. It is likely that spare parts were of bad quality. Please remember that many people working in the factories were "deportees"...

Sure there were also problems with Russian craftmanship. Some problem with the Yak3 are well documented. But, these problems were solved eventually, and could be seen as teething problems, such as *any* new design faced. The landing gear did not lower itself until the end of the war. The wings did not tear so badly after a while. The fuel injection problems were solved. Etc.

Most posters here think that just because those problems were listed for earlier Yaks, they were never solved. I have recollections of pilots of Normandie-Niemen, and they clearly state that the Yak3 was ironed out quite quickly.

3. German designs were good, but Germany could not offer itself such goodies :

Many German designs involved the extensive use of materials that were difficult to get in Germany. This country was strategically under siege. Most people think only in terms of lack of oil. But other materials were badly needed : aluminium, chrome, rubber, etc.

Too many designs made extensive use of this materials. This explains the difference between factory performances and front line units performances.

4. Many German pilots complained about the difference between ideal specs and what they could get from their planes :

When you read recollections from German pilots, especially when they flew of excentric fronts (Russia, Italy), they always talk about the "dreamy" specs of the manual. "Where are my 100k/h lacking ?"

Two sources come to mind : Peter Henn, Johannes Steinhoff.

5. Most books people read by posters here talk about western front :

It is crystal clear that most posters here have extensive lists of books concerning the Western front. The plane design politics were very similar on the western front.

In order to improve a plane, the general rule was to put a more powerful engine. This led to increase in weight (stronger structure and heavier engine). This led, most of the time, to worst flight qualities (turn rate, turn radius,...)

The Russians tried something else : the Yak family is a good example. They tried to improve aerodynamics and reduce weight, without changing the engine. This is what led to the Yak3 and La7. Maybe that explains why most posters here despise VVS designs...



Tym

XyZspineZyX
09-08-2003, 11:12 AM
I cracked myself up with this quote:

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What saved England was the British Navy and 20 miles of sea not their Airforce. The British had a far better Navy and control of the sea!
The Air attacks against England were slowly destroying the British Airforce and would have done so, had not Hitler started a second front, by attacking Russia. At which point Hitler with drew the German airforce, and the Germans were again out numbered and remained out numbered the rest of the war!
The only reason a small country like Germany, so badly out mumber in equipment and men lasted so long, and almost won, (Thank God they did not win!) was the supperior quality of their equipment and traning!
************************************************** ********

That got to be the biggest bullsheiss I ever saw writen on a message board about WW2.

The BoB was lost for germany in September 1940, and the Invasion postponed because the german airforce could not provide adequate cover for a possiple invasion fleet. That was what the air battle was originally about, I'm sure most here know that.

To argue that the RAF was rescued by the "second front" in Russia is soooooo far out - but on the other hand it mixes well with the educational level of your other statements.

The only reason Hitler focused on Russia was that he had given up on the channel front for now. The german wartime industry got their directives for producing more items critical to LAND warfare at the expense of the Navy and Airforce. Why? Because Land Warfare was what Russia was about.

So in short - by the time Russia came on Hitlers plan he had fully given up the idea of the Operation Seel√¬∂we. The RAF kept control of the airspace and thus the british Navy would have been able to control the channel.

XyZspineZyX
09-11-2003, 05:28 AM
Redwulf 44 said: "What saved England was the British Navy and 20 miles of sea not their Airforce. The British had a far better Navy and control of the sea!
The Air attacks against England were slowly destroying the British Airforce and would have done so, had not Hitler started a second front, by attacking Russia. "


At the end of the Battle of Britain, England had more Spitfires and Hurricanes than they did at the start and production was on the increase. The British air force was not being slowly destroyed.

If you check the document supported 'kills', (rather than the claims which are always exagerated by both sides), you will see that the Luftwaffe lost more planes during BoB than the RAF. Fighter Command lost between 900 and 925 aircraft in combat during BoB, the Luftwaffe lost between 1590 and 1740 in combat. 400 Fighter Command pilots and aircrew were killed, while the Luftwaffe lost 5 times that many. Kill to loss ratio for fighter command was 2:1. That kill ratio does not indicate inferior equipment, particularly since we know the British used inferior tactics.

British destroyers were withdrawn from the English Channel during BoB and merchant ships suffered heavily from air and submarine attacks. The U-boat menace in the Atlantic was not dealt with till mid-war, and the allies lost millions of tons of supplies to them, so the supremacy of the British Navy was not a factor in the BoB, (which was a battle for air supremacy, not a naval battle.)

During the winter of 1940/41 and the spring of 1941, most of the airfighting in Western Europe was in the form of nuisance raids, which had little strategic effect and caused heavy pilot losses for both sides. The attack on Russia had great importance to the eventual outcome of the war, but little impact on the ETO air fighting at that time, and no impact on the BoB, which most historians have ending in October 1940.

This entire argument about what is better, is silly. 'Better', is a relative term, it is not quantitative. Faster? Stronger? Longer service life? Better armed? These are things that can be measured. 'Better' is just an opinion.


Opinions? The Ju88 and Mosquito get about equal regard as the 'best' multi-purpose twin engine bombers of WWII, but many knowledgeable historians give the title of best twin to the Pe2.
Best ground attack aircraft? IL2 Sturmovik, hands down winner no matter who you talk to.
Best fighter of WWII??? Americans say the P51 or P47, British and Canadians say Spitifre, Germans say 109, Japanese say the Ki84, Russians say the La7 or Yak3. Lots of opinions on that one.

As for the disparaging remarks about Soviet quality control and workmanship, I've fired British, German, American and Russian WWII rifles, and they are all about equal in fit, finish and accuracy. People are people, they are all capable of doing good work, and nationality or etnicity has no effect on it.


Budanova