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ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 11:05 AM
Tonight on the "True Stories" cable will play "The Arrow" the history of a Mach 2 fighter designed and built by Avro Canada. This fantastic delta-winged jet was so very far ahead of its time in the late 1950s and its demise at he hands of politicians and beancounters is a sad tale indeed.

It is long, and a two parter, so be sure to have much room on the tape.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 11:05 AM
Tonight on the "True Stories" cable will play "The Arrow" the history of a Mach 2 fighter designed and built by Avro Canada. This fantastic delta-winged jet was so very far ahead of its time in the late 1950s and its demise at he hands of politicians and beancounters is a sad tale indeed.

It is long, and a two parter, so be sure to have much room on the tape.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 12:03 PM
I was being provincial, my apologies. This Canadian film will be aired at 9:00 PM California time, Thursday, 5 August.

Check local listings (or perhaps Amazon).

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 01:20 PM
Some further information from one of the numerous websites.

http://www.exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aircraft/Milestones/avroarrow.cfm

The fascinating rise and demise of the Avro Arrow is a chronicle of triumph and tragedy for Canadian aviation. Born deep in the Cold war (it was rolled out on October 4th 1957 -- the same day the USSR launched the Sputnik) the Arrow bore from the first the uniquely Canadian quality of functionality in a vast and limitless wilderness. It was envisaged as North America's first line of defense against the supersonic bombers believed to be under development in the Soviet Union, which would attack from across wastes of the great North.

Before giving the green light to Avro, the RCAF sent a top level evaluation team to assess all the countries in the Western alliance to find out if anyone was working on a craft that met their requirements. No one was. The Arrow was to be a twin-engined aircraft with a crew of two, a supersonic interceptor to destroy any enemy threat in the next decade or beyond, and was expected to fulfill a grueling performance specification issued by the RCAF in 1953.

It was a spec that Jim Floyd, Vice President of Engineering at Avro Canada's Malton headquarters and the man responsible for the development of the Arrow, described as "overkill". It called for a manoeuvre capability of at least 2 G at Mach 1.5 at 50,000 feet at full weight with all combat missiles aboard. This daunting list of requirements, which can scarcely be exceeded by combat aircraft today, was the reason the Arrow was to be powered by enormous engines especially designed for it, and had to stow all missiles inside for maximum drag reduction.

The Arrow was designed as a delta winged craft without a tail plane, an "inevitable compromise between aerodynamic, structural and aerolastic efficiency," as Floyd put it. The range of the new craft was specified at 200 nautical miles, which included five minutes of combat.at Mach 1.5. Avro, however, considered this too little, and designed the aircraft for ranges of up to a 650 n.m. radius. A subsequent reconnaissance version of the Arrow was planned which would have a range of 2000 n.m.

While Avro's Gas Turbine Division (later to become Orenda Engines) was working on the powerful Iroquois engine that was to be used on the Mark 2 series, test flights went underway using an interim engine, the Pratt and Whitney J75 engine. When test flights began, the craft easily met all guarantees, according to Jack Woodman, the RCAF evaluation pilot assigned to the project. By the third test flight it broke the speed of sound, eventually reaching speeds as high as Mach 1.98.

With the new Iroquois engine, which delivered considerably more power, the Arrow was expected to break world speed records. Indeed, projected versions of the plane were to go as fast as Mach 3. But on the 20th of February, 1959, days before the new Mark 2 series bearing the Iroquois engine was about to be tested, the bad news broke -- the Arrow was to be cancelled.

Avro was instructed to immediately halt all work, and to destroy all prototypes and plans. Employees were sent home, and 14,000 people lost their jobs. The cancellation is widely credited with contributing to the growing Canadian brain drain of the period - NASA grabbed up many of the key people displaced by the move, as did the Concorde and other projects.

The cancellation was a contentious affair, and its justification or demonization has been the subject of considerable debate. At the time, the threat that inspired the formidable characteristics of the Arrow, namely that of manned Soviet bombers emerging from across the polar regions, was perceived to be diminishing. The new menace of the day was believed to be from nuclear missiles, and missiles were to be the means of defense.

The Museum exhibit includes the only remaining parts of the Arrow to survive -- the nose and cockpit section from the Arrow RL 206, a main undercarriage leg, a PS-13 Iroquois engine, the outer wing panels and various smaller components.

Jan Zurakowski flew the first Arrow, achieving speeds of Mach 1.98.


Specifications

Period: Postwar
Uses: Interceptor
First Flight: 1958
Manufacturer: A.V. Roe Canada Ltd., Canada
Wing Span: 50 ft (15.2 m)
Length: 85 ft 6 in (26.1 m)
Height: 21 ft 3 in (6.5 m)
Weight, Empty: 43,960 lb (19,935 kg)
Weight, Gross: 62,431 lb (28,319 kg)
Cruising Speed: 701 mph (1,128 km/h)
Maximum Speed: 1,524 mph (2,453 km/h)
Rate of Climb: 50,000 ft (15,240 m)/4 min 24 sec
Service Ceiling: 58,500 ft (17,830 m)
Range: 264 mi (425 km)
Power Plant: two Orenda Iroquois axial flow turbojet engines, 26,000 lb (11,791 kg) static thrust, with afterburner



It was a beautiful advanced aircraft.... and I had never heard of it until I saw the CBC movie.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

mortoma
08-05-2004, 05:20 PM
I know that many Canadians are disappointed it never was built out of pride, but as it turned out, you never needed it anyway. Look how many planes the U.S. government built that ended up being a waste. The F-104, F-102, F106 and B-58 Hustler all come to mind. Those were all defensive interceptors in the same vein as the Arrow would have been in. But we never needed them in the end. I know, I know, Canadians feel the Arrow was better than any of those I mentioned. I remember seeing B-58s flying over my Indiana home in the 60s, they had some stationed at Grissom AFB ( then Bunker Hill AFB ) here in Indiana but they were such a waste as it turned out in the end. Oops, I guess the Hustler was meant to be a retaliatory bomber, still never needed it though.

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 06:38 PM
Mortoma,

Many feel that the design and performance of the Arrow was much more than equall to any contemporary aircraft. Even though I "discovered" this aircraft just days ago, I find myself in agreement with admiration for this 40+ year old design. If it had been first flown in 1998 I would have been impressed with the design... it must have been an eye roller in 1958.

Also must correct self... "The Arrow" is on at 8:00 vice 9:00 PM on the "True Stories" movie channel.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

Waldo.Pepper
08-05-2004, 08:33 PM
The tragedy of the Arrow cancellation is not the loss of hte plane.. but rather the loss of the brain(trust) which went south to the US Aerospace industry. NASA cherry picked the brains of the Avro company for the space program.

WTE_Galway
08-05-2004, 09:59 PM
is that the same canadian company that made the round flying saucer fighter thing?

i would also add that Canada is not the only country to close down a viable local military aircraft industry in favor of buying planes from the US .. Australia did the same thing

but even the US suffered massive cutbacks around he same time, look at the Valkyrie Mach 3 bomber project and also the fighter/interceptor version of what became the SR71 blackbird

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 10:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waldo.Pepper:
The tragedy of the Arrow cancellation is not the loss of hte plane.. but rather the loss of the brain(trust) which went south to the US Aerospace industry. NASA cherry picked the brains of the Avro company for the space program.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I think that engineers will always gravitate to the cutting edge.... Canada had that cutting edge... and that loss is tragic. Yet those Canadian engineers were core to many other endeavors.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 10:13 PM
WTE,

Yep... Avro produced some experimental flying saucers.. essentially ground effect?,,, under contract to the US Army. I am not sure what the eventual findings or feasability were realized, but it is on the website link.

Cheers

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

ThreeCrow
08-05-2004, 10:15 PM
I wonder where the cutting edge is now?

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

WTE_Galway
08-05-2004, 10:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThreeCrow:
I wonder where the cutting edge is now?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably in Russia with the vectored thrust fighters

arcadeace
08-05-2004, 11:05 PM
Here's a link to video of its maiden flight, nice for the late '50s. http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-75-275-1401/science_technology/avro_arrow/clip3

I think from a more practical standpoint cutting edge today would be stealth.

ThreeCrow
08-06-2004, 12:17 AM
...or mebbe something out of Roswell in Hangar 51. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Never Underestimate what a soldier will do in the defense of his country."
Gen Wesley Clark

FLAGRUM_3
08-06-2004, 07:29 AM
The cancellation of the Aero was not just a brain drain to Canada, it was the death of our aerospace industry or hope for one.Sure we still have DeHavilland and a few plants (Boeing)Messier Dowty etc;...but nothing we can really be proud of. I worked for 16 years at the plant in Malton where the Aero was built and actually saw some of the jigs used to built her, talked to some old timers that worked there at the time of the Aero and believe me the concensis was that killing the Aero was killing Canada's chance at Aerospace domination.....the Malton plant also built the "sauser" mentioned in above posts.The plant is now leased by Boeing after the takeover of McDonnell Douglas Aircraft in 87', and is down to 400 workers once 5200, and the plant which did so much history will most likely be torn down in the coming years.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

AWL_Spinner
08-06-2004, 08:02 AM
Us Brits feel the same way about the cancellation of the world-beating TSR2 (http://www.aemann.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/aircraft/virtraf/tsr2.html) as you Canucks feel about the Arrow.

Politicians, bah. Pointy noise-making machines are far more fun.

Cheers, Spinner

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