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KaokanDBZ
07-09-2004, 06:06 PM
If you read Achenar's journals in the E3 preview for MYST, you see all sorts of lines that seem very much out of character for Achenar. Examples:

"Man, it is hot"
"WHERE THE HELL IS SIRRUS?!"
"I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL!!"

I dunno... Achenar just seemed much more eloquent in the letters he wrote in MYST. Not only that, but terms like "GONNA" and "Man," are very American, not D'ni-like at all.

KaokanDBZ
07-09-2004, 06:06 PM
If you read Achenar's journals in the E3 preview for MYST, you see all sorts of lines that seem very much out of character for Achenar. Examples:

"Man, it is hot"
"WHERE THE HELL IS SIRRUS?!"
"I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL!!"

I dunno... Achenar just seemed much more eloquent in the letters he wrote in MYST. Not only that, but terms like "GONNA" and "Man," are very American, not D'ni-like at all.

Pat_09
07-09-2004, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>the letters he wrote in MYST <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

What letters are you talking about exactly??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

earthangell
07-09-2004, 09:56 PM
wasn't Achenar the crazy insane sicko who had the torture implements?
are you perhaps referring to Atrus's letters in MYST?
----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

Eat_My_Shortz
07-09-2004, 11:15 PM
Nope - Achenar DID write ONE letter in Myst!

(Did you miss this one, Pat?)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Sirrus,
Your greed sickens me! Your desire for wealth and plunder is never satisfied. I will instruct my subjects not to pay your new tax and you know they'll listen to me.
Regards,
Achenar.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
- Found in the red page (?) room in the Mechanical Age.

Yes, I think "man" is a little American. But keep in mind Achenar is NOT D'ni. He was brought up by Atrus and Catherine, who are basically human (Atrus has only his grandfather's D'ni blood in him).

I think Achenar in Myst IV does appear very different to his character in Myst. But I really didn't like him. A person can change a lot in 20 years (although the journals were written before Myst).

But I think when he wrote that he would be in that frame of mind.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

matt myat
07-10-2004, 02:03 AM
The modern slang does seem kinda outa place but perhaps it's a little more complex that that. Achenar sounds like he's under much strain here, with a context and history we have yet to fully comprehend. Bear in mind this is a personal journal so it is the way he speaks to himself. Besides that we haven't really had much of a glimpse at his personality yet (beyond establishing that he's quiet out of his mind)

Coronagold
07-10-2004, 03:02 AM
Well, as long as Achenar does'nt say, "Hey peeps! What up?! I'm gonna cap yo as*!", I'll be happy.

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

Eat_My_Shortz
07-10-2004, 04:22 AM
Or the word "dude" gets used. Whichever first.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

Pat_09
07-10-2004, 08:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bear in mind this is a personal journal so it is the way he speaks to himself. Besides that we haven't really had much of a glimpse at his personality yet (beyond establishing that he's quiet out of his mind) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

That's exactly right! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

monsieurdavid
07-11-2004, 04:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you read Achenar's journals in the E3 preview for MYST, you see all sorts of lines that seem very much out of character for Achenar. Examples:
"Man, it is hot"
"WHERE THE HELL IS SIRRUS?!"
"I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL!!"
I dunno... Achenar just seemed much more eloquent in the letters he wrote in MYST. Not only that, but terms like "GONNA" and "Man," are very American, not D'ni-like at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I must say when I saw this lingo in the journals in the E3 preview, my heart sank a bit. Seriously bad judgment on the part of the writers. Seriously bad judgment. Talk about a mood breaker.

Pat_09
07-11-2004, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Seriously bad judgment on the part of the writers. Seriously bad judgment. Talk about a mood breaker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To each his own...

For example, to ME, "Seriously bad judgement" is shown when expressing your opinion on something you know little about, that you have not experienced first-hand and that you are only aware of because you caught an out of context snipet from a promotional video. And you find it contradicting your own preconceived ideas about a character/situation/circomstance that has never been fully developed and/or presented to the public before...

THAT, to me, is lacking judgement...

But like I said, to each his own... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

monsieurdavid
07-11-2004, 08:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> To each his own... [etc., etc., etc.] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My opinion is that this is badly conceived writing, in the sense that the modern idiom is out of place in what has heretofore involved "Middle Earth" style dialog. Lines like "Man, it is hot", "WHERE THE HELL IS SIRRUS?!", and "I'M GONNA KILL THEM ALL!!" are all the information I need to form this opinion. If the "something [I] know little about, that [I] have not experienced first-hand" turns out to be that Achenar linked to present-day Anaheim, California to write his journals, I'll reconsider. Thanks.

maztec
07-11-2004, 09:04 PM
Perhaps we should ring up an etymologist on this?

Not to mention that what was displayed in that video was probably not intended to be read. Is Achenars personal journal, and could very well not be as presented when in the game.

Oh yes, and is a very minimal portion of the overall story -- sure adds context and clues -- but the amount of writing we have been hinted at existing dwarfs this.


I believe "gonna" is 20th century in its spelling. But "gunna" has been around in speech since at least the 19th century. Meaning Achenar could be exposed and influenced into using it.

I'm sure that people will also complain if the characters misspell words - despite near everyone speeels sumfing wrong.
---
Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

monsieurdavid
07-11-2004, 09:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> ...that you are only aware of because you caught an out of context snipet from a promotional video... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So, yes or no, the "man, it is hot", "where the hell...", and "I'm gonna..." only appear in the promotional video, and not the final game? Or was I closer with the Anaheim scenario?

Coronagold
07-11-2004, 09:35 PM
This doesn't bust my bubble. I'm more curious about the acting.

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

Srikandi
07-11-2004, 10:34 PM
md: I doubt they redid the journals for the movies. I expect that the text is the same. I think what Pat meant was that this language will seem natural in its context.

I don't think the language of the original Myst texts is "middle-earthy": presumably it represents an attempt to reflect 19th century written English.

As maztec says, there's nothing particularly modern, or particularly American, about any of the expressions you object to. I can't offhand give you exact dates or places for where they came into wide use in spoken English... what makes them seem "modern" is the fact that using writing to reflect spoken language fairly directly is a relatively recent idea.

IMO, using this kind of language as a device in a game to make the player feel intimately involved in a character's thoughts is a reasonable design decision.

Of course, all issues related to "standard" language tend to evoke strong reactions, so I'm not surprised that there's some controversy here!

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

Eat_My_Shortz
07-11-2004, 11:40 PM
1. Nice reply, Pat

2. Aren't we getting a little overstimulated by something, which as Pat pointed out, is not even shown in any context in that video.

3. Speaking of Middle Earth, did anyone catch Aragorn's last line in "Fellowship of the Ring" - "Let's go hunt some Orc!"
Hmmm... now that sounded a bit too modern to me.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

KaokanDBZ
07-12-2004, 01:05 AM
Maybe people are getting confused and thinking I'm attacking the game or its developers. I'm not.

I'm just saying this is not consistant with Achenar's character. It's a blatant discontinuity which cannot be denied. In the MYST universe, it's not characteristic to use the term "man" or the word "gonna".

Like I said, I'm not attacking the game. But this is a definate CBB situation.

(I could also complain that his handwriting has changed, but that would make me a geek. I'm not that picky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[This message was edited by KaokanDBZ on Mon July 12 2004 at 12:13 PM.]

Eat_My_Shortz
07-12-2004, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>(I could also complain that his handwriting has changed, but that would make me a geek. I'm not that picky http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could... but it seems from this thread that the designers didn't know Achenar HAD handwriting! Hehe

But seriously, I hope you guys got Atrus' famous handwriting. If you don't everyone will know!

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

matt myat
07-12-2004, 03:26 AM
Atrus had famous handwriting? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
07-12-2004, 03:39 AM
Well sorta... I mean its the same handwriting used in all 5 games... even Uru. s'pretty famous!

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

monsieurdavid
07-12-2004, 07:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm just saying this is not in context to Achenar's character. It's a blatant discontinuity which cannot be denied. In the MYST universe, it's not characteristic to use the term "man" or the word "gonna". Like I said, I'm not attacking the game. But this is a definate CBB situation." - KaokanDBZ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think you can try to put the best face on this (Srikandi...), but Myst is all about immersion in an alternate reality. I'm so willing to be proven wrong when the game appears, but I can't think of a context where this choice to use modern lingo in the game is not going to work against that immersion.
Now, let's go hunt some Orc!

Eat_My_Shortz
07-12-2004, 05:26 PM
David - you have a point, but I guess none of us will really be able to tell until it IS put in context. Pat, however, seems to be pretty sure there is SOME explanation for this so I'll put my faith in him.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

matt myat
07-12-2004, 08:15 PM
looking over the trailer i realised that these accentuated parts of the monologue are just that! they are the most violent outburts or points of strong emotion. The rest of it just appears to ramble.

since Achenar's descent from power to isolation and now his fight for survival, his temper has grown short and his madness deepened considerably.

Sri pointed out the main concern is the modern use of contracted words, this is a negligable dose of poetic license without which various parts of the dialogue would not stand out and his emotions remain concealed.

without contraction of other "valid" modes of emphasis (apart from heavily scrawled writing and bounding boxes) i present these particularly dry and emotionally inferior alternatives:

"Man, is it hot!!" -&gt; "God, is it hot!!"
"WHERE THE HELL IS SIRRUS?!" -&gt; "WHERE THE HECK IS SIRRUS?!"
"I'M GONNA KILL YOU FOR THIS OLD MAN!!!!" -&gt; "I WILL KILL YOU FATHER FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!!!!"

without the modern terms i think the emersion would be hindered rather than enhanced!

if you think i'm missing the point that this writing isn't in character with Achenar i have to say that i firmly believe it is - in light of the fact that we've never really got to know him, i now formally introduce you to the new and hopelessly deranged Achenar...

monsieurdavid
07-12-2004, 08:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> David - you have a point... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, to be completely accurate, KaokanDBZ has a point; I've just taken the heat for it ;-)
Of course I was being facetious earlier with my "linking to Anaheim" theory, and yet...
So -- forget Anaheim -- the story somehow has Sirrus and Achenar exposed to present-day America, where people say man, and gonna, and where the hell. Sound ludicrous? Okay...
Someone else run a couple of ideas past us as to why Achenar has picked up the modern vernacular.
Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KaokanDBZ
07-12-2004, 11:34 PM
LoL! Sounds about right, monsieurdavid. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Said by Eat My Shortz:
Pat, however, seems to be pretty sure there is SOME explanation for this so I'll put my faith in him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've read, it would seem that the only explanation is that the developers didn't know about that note in the mechanical age.


Perhaps they want to take Achenar's character in a different direction. I just hope they put some real thought into it.

Eat_My_Shortz
07-13-2004, 10:00 AM
Yeah they uh... don't seem to have got that note have they?

Anyway, I think people WOULD change if they were locked away for 20 years (hey anyone catch that? - the same time frame Saavedro was Exiled. ITS PAYBACK!)

Anyway Matt makes a very good point with some very well-prepared examples.
I just don't know what a vernacular is! (Sounds like some sort of internal organ but I'll assume it has something to do with language!)

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!

monsieurdavid
07-13-2004, 12:36 PM
I h a t e it when people respond with a definition ;-) (Actually, I really do...)

"The everyday language spoken by a people as distinguished from the literary language." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KaokanDBZ
07-13-2004, 08:07 PM
My vernacular organ is about to burst! &gt;_&lt;

maztec
07-13-2004, 10:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KaokanDBZ:
Perhaps they want to take Achenar's character in a different direction. I just hope they put some real thought into it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keeping in mind that Cyan was retained as a consultant on this one.. I would say there may have been some hard thinking going on.

---
Consider this a disclaimer, unless otherwise stated.

Phen1
07-15-2004, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
1. Nice reply, Pat

2. Aren't we getting a little overstimulated by something, which as Pat pointed out, is not even shown in any context in that video.

3. Speaking of Middle Earth, did anyone catch Aragorn's last line in "Fellowship of the Ring" - "Let's go hunt some Orc!"
Hmmm... now that sounded a bit too modern to me.

_______________________________________________
The Gathered Will Tell the Path of the Shell. Well TELL ME ALREADY!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Er... excuse me? Aragorn never said that... read the books. The movies don't do them justice at all. They are very unmiddle-earthy... Aragorn never REALLY says that.

~~PHEN~~

Pre-rendering ROCKS!!!

Srikandi
07-15-2004, 03:36 PM
Tolkien, of course, was a philologist -- a professor of historical linguistics. (As a side note, my grandmother studied Beowulf under him at Oxford.) He didn't make up the sort of language he ascribed to his characters; I suspect he was trying to capture the flavor of the 19th century English translations of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and European myths, folktales and epics that his audience would be familiar with, giving his work the "out of time" character that it has.

That's one approach, but it isn't the only legitimate one. Tolkien's works are not psychological: his characters are meant to be seen as archetypes, and like the characters of myths, their inner life is not directly depicted. I loved Tolkien when I was younger, but nowadays I have to say I find his work rather sterile... and I'm troubled by his yearning for a very oppressive feudal past, but that's a separate issue http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

In the original Myst, the psychology of Sirrus and Achenar was relevant, but only in the broadest terms. We have to understand that both brothers were amoral, that Sirrus is greedy and Achenar is violent, to make the right choice. It seems that in Revelation, though, we will be asked to understand their thought processes rather more intimately; indeed, it seems that this might be crucial to solving the puzzles of their worlds. "Middle-earth" language simply isn't suited for this for the reasons given above.

The progression of the Myst series through the years has been from the abstract and barely delineated story in the original game through increasingly compelling narrative and increasingly developed characterizations in Riven and Exile and Uru; I'd think Revelations is not an abrupt departure, but the continuation of this trend.

Just my view, though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

matt myat
07-15-2004, 05:50 PM
nice points Sri! yeah, in Myst Sirrus and Achenar where more archetypical (with some nice characteristic touches) rather than fully rounded characters, it looks like now we're gunna have to understand things a little deeper! i can't wait to meet them!

earthangell
07-16-2004, 02:23 AM
hehe... i'm a little nervous... Achenar was really creepy in MYST, at least his rooms were, anyway..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

matt myat
07-16-2004, 04:05 AM
lol yeah, i thought they were real creepy!

in the mechanical age i always left the building through sirrus's room http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

monsieurdavid
07-16-2004, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "I don't think the language of the original Myst texts is "middle-earthy": presumably it represents an attempt to reflect 19th century written English."

"I suspect he [Tolkien] was trying to capture the flavor of the 19th century English translations of Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and European myths, folktales and epics that his audience would be familiar with, giving his work the 'out of time' character that it has."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sri, I'm not trying to catch you in a contradiction, but I'm confused. Furthermore, my point has been that the "out of time" quality of the faux-Tolkien usage in Myst (thus far) is being disrupted with the usage the modern audience is far TOO familiar with.

When you have dialog like the Myst letter (Achenar's), which I believe we've established that the Revelation developers were unaware of, and most recently we have dialog (albeit Atrus') like "Thank the Maker you've returned!" -- which has a certain "Egad!" quality, don't you think ;-) -- then modern sounding dialog is distracting.

To me, matt myat's replacements a couple of posts back are obviously attempts to justify the existing dialog by offering worse, though "God, is it hot" IS actually a good fix for "Man, is it hot". (But I don't think you can say "God" in Myst, you have to say "Maker", and I don't think "Maker, is it hot" will work ;-) "Where the heck is Sirrus" is silly, of course, since it's not the word "hell" that is objectionable, it's the expression "where the hell". And the fix for "I'm gonna kill you for this old man"? "I'm goING to kill you for this old man" -- no sword and sorcery alternative required.

Why get so wound up over something that seems incidental to what appears to be a stellar production? Earlier in this thread, Coronagold said, "This doesn't bust my bubble. I'm more curious about the acting." This in fact is essentially the entire point, really: what else has been whipped up to make the franchise hip?

Thanks.

matt myat
07-16-2004, 06:54 PM
you have some good points there MD, the vernacular probably could have been wound back a little without any detrimental effects, and in fact may have resulted in speech a lot less conspicuous. but i think this was just a design desicision made by the developers (in their interpretation of Atrus's story?) in order to highten the level of emotional impact on modern players. whether that is a good trade off or not at least makes for an interesting debate!

earthangell
07-16-2004, 09:46 PM
i think this thread, among a few others, proves that we all will discuss just about anything to pass the time untill game releases, or to interact with those we miss from LIVE.

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

Mary_94
07-17-2004, 01:51 PM
Sorry to jump in on the discussion a bit late. Normally I wouldnā't say anything at all, since I prefer to let people read the stuff Iā've written and form their own conclusions accordingly. But, having been accused of exhibiting...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Seriously bad judgment on the part of the writers. Seriously bad judgment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

before people have had the chance to read the journal in question -- in its entirety, in the full context of Revelationā's complete story -- I figured I actually ought to do something to earn that accusation. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif Like this, for instance:


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif
THE WRITER RESPONDS....
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif


1. Contrary to whatā's been declared in this thread, I was aware of Achenarā's letter in Myst. I even showed it to Pat during production as an example of how Achenarā's handwriting, like his motherā's, tends to be more refined when heā's not writing under periods of high stress. (Unfortunately, I showed the letter to Pat when he was under a period of high stress, so his memory seems to have been likewise affected.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

2. As several others have already pointed out, the language we use when writing our personal journals and the language we use when writing text we expect others to read is often quite different. You think you know that Achenar wrote that letter to Sirrus in Myst, but do you really know the context under which it was written? For instance:

? Did Achenar write the letter in that way because that is how he really speaks and what he really felt? Orā...

? Did Achenar write the letter using that language because heā's always felt inferior to Sirrus and wanted to impress him with a more formal writing tone? Orā...

? Did Achenar write the letter because he expected it to be read by his own subjects before Sirrus received it, and he wanted to impress them with his lofty tone? Orā...

? Was the letter part of a deeper, more complex plan concocted by both brothers, written by someone other than Achenar, and intended to be read by someone other than Sirrus – i.e., the people the brothers were ruling over?

So you see, there are lots of reasons why the letter in Myst and the few journal pages you read in a promotional video for Revelation could have a different tone. To get a full understanding of Achenarā's journal in Revelation, youā'll just have to read the entire, un-transcribed version of its text in the context in which it was intended to be read. The pages you have seen in the promotional video may occur anywhere in the journal – beginning, middle, or end. Exactly where they occur -- or rather during which stage of Achenarā's life and/or imprisonment they were written in -- may help explain the "slanginess" of the tone. You may discover that they do not break the immersion factor at all, once you truly are immersed in the game and reading them there.

Of course, you may also find they do. People may be completely correct in their belief that the language used in Achenarā's journal sounds very American and not at all like the Achenar they knew in Myst. They have the right to hold that opinion, and I respect them for it. Just as I hope they do not take offense from anything Iā've written in this post.

If they do, they can chalk it up to my seriously bad judgment.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

CAGrayWolf
07-17-2004, 02:13 PM
/waves to Mary http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good to see(read) you again ... and am so sorry you will not be at Mysterium ... was so hoping to see you again and talk more.

[EDIT] Just found out that Mary will be at Mysterium ... YAY! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

BTW ... perfect response to these concerns ... as you and I do know better. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://jerle.bahro.com/avatars/wolfyMc.jpg (http://www.greetersguild.com/home.html)

[This message was edited by CAGrayWolf on Sat July 17 2004 at 06:04 PM.]

earthangell
07-17-2004, 03:31 PM
Hi Mary!!! *sends a hug* GOOD RESPONSE!!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Escape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

matt myat
07-17-2004, 06:21 PM
Thanks Mary,

See! Mary really knows what she's doing!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

monsieurdavid
07-17-2004, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If the "something [I] know little about, that [I] have not experienced first-hand" turns out to be that Achenar linked to present-day Anaheim, California to write his journals, I'll reconsider. Thanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My impulse to apologize for the "seriously bad judgment" remark occurred as far back as Pat's reply, so why it will have taken me this long to act is anybody's guess. I apologize. I travel in a thicker-skinned crowd.

Forget Achenar. Forget his letter in Myst, and the hypotheses about what prompted the "lofty tone". This is what we're left with: NObody in the Myst series has spoken like this (the Revelation journal) before, not even the whacked-out Saavedro. My question throughout has been where did this modern sensibility come from?

For what it's worth, I've also said in this thread: "I'm so willing to be proven wrong when the game appears..." Thanks for the italicized "un-transcribed" hint! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
07-17-2004, 09:33 PM
Yes she does. Thanks for clearing that up Mary!

I forgot you were writing this stuff. When Pat said he didn't know about the page I sort of assumed the writer didn't know about the page. Of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I remember in the Making of Myst III you spoke of your careful exploration of Myst island, how it inspired the "Lesson Age" concept, and allowed you to create a lot of deliberate puzzles - I'd expect you'd be as schooled in Myst lore as the rest of us.
(What about D'ni lore? Are you guys big Uru fans because I remember Pat said he hadn't played Uru very much)

But this brings up an interesting point - how will puzzles be designed in Myst IV (Now of course I don't expect an official answer to this question).
But Myst had puzzles for security. Riven had puzzles for secrecy (the Moiety) and security (Gehn). Exile, as stated, had the lessons, a very clever idea. And Uru was sort of a lesson as well - a lot of puzzles were crafted by Yeesha as part of the "Journey". So how do you go about making deliberate "puzzles" appear in prison ages? It really makes you think!

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

Pat_09
07-19-2004, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I forgot you were writing this stuff. When Pat said he didn't know about the page I sort of assumed the writer didn't know about the page. Of course
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say anything about NOT knowing Achenar's letter, I simply asked "WHAT letter are you talking about?" As in: "what exactly are YOU referring to"? not as in "what's this? A letter? Myst 1? Hmm, maybe I should PLAY that...".

And once I DID find out what was been referred to (and reading the "poor judgement" & other such responses on this thread...) I simply stopped caring for it (for many of the reasons pointed out by Mary and some others including mainly lack of time to waste arguing about something that no one can objectively argue about yet...Like Mary said, it MAY turn out to be a valid argument and you may feel the language disrupts your enjoyment of the game, but wait until you PLAY and the game and READ the journal, especially if you're gonna talk about poor judgement...).

I find it so silly sometimes when people take for granted that we haven't played these games and we don't know anything about the series... We've been working on the project night & day for the past 3 YEARS folks (and something like FIVE or more years for Mary), we didn't just decide to patch a little something together over the week-end...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Patchallel
07-19-2004, 07:32 PM
My perspective:
Early versions of characters and stories, whether they are well-thought out or not, do not always translate well to later versions of the same characters and stories.

What I mean is that some may be reading too much into the way some characters act (especially when Rand and Robyn could never have forseen where their charaters were going) and expect them to follow a particular arc as their story evolves.

Also, some AVIDs feel that they "own" these characters ("I know what Achenar would do") and that gives writers (like Mary) who see the characters differently, a lot of difficulty.

But the strongest point must be pre-judging material (based on fragments) months before it's released is silly. I say this not just for Mary, Pat and the rest of the Myst 4 team, but for anybody trying to evolve a character:
Give them a chance. Let them present the entire story and characters, in context.

Patchallel (Tom O'Leary)
http://news.patchallel.com

Eat_My_Shortz
07-19-2004, 08:50 PM
I'm sorry i'm sorry i'm sorry, Pat! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

I've been supporting you guys the whole time! Please don't hold this comment against me! I didn't of course think you weren't fully-schooled in Myst lore. I guess I had assumed you missed that note.

Of course I'll give you a chance. I'll do more than that - I have complete faith in all of you! With regards to the journals, as long as we don't start seeing "'sup my homies!" I'm sure it'll be fine!

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

earthangell
07-20-2004, 04:02 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif all hail MYST people, in whatever game they work on!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif thank you for all your efforts and ideas and talents and patience and etc....!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

JustBrett
07-20-2004, 04:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat_09:
I find it so silly sometimes when people take for granted that we haven't played these games and we don't know anything about the series...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, gee, why would we expect you to know anything? After all, you're just a bunch of corporate hacks working for (yeech) Ubisoft (ewww), and you're only in it to milk a little profit out of the franchise in any way you can, and to heck with artistic integrity. Obviously you're just using the Myst name to sell whatever dreck you come up with, because you're too unimaginative to invent your own characters and settings. You couldn't possibly have any interest in the story, and only Holy Cyan is truly capable of making a REAL Myst game. (Like RIVEN, RIVEN, RIVEN ... ) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

(P.S. -- j/k! j/k! j/k! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif)

------------------
*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

Eat_My_Shortz
07-20-2004, 06:07 AM
I think some of that sarcasm was lost on me, JB!

I think he's trying to say the same thing earthangel did.
I shall join you guys in appraisal of everyone who has worked on any Myst game:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

Pat_09
07-20-2004, 07:00 AM
Thanks guys,

Now I'M the one who feels bad cause it feels like I FORCED you to praise us which is not what I meant to do... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I know a lot of you support what we do and it's much appreciated. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif And I know a lot of you are sceptical and that's fine with me cause truth be told, we haven't delivered anything yet. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif But if you can try to be FAIR in your judgement, it would be much appreciated... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And of course, you don't HAVE to do that either, after all, these are YOUR forums! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Eat_My_Shortz
07-20-2004, 07:03 AM
I don't feel forced at all. Those of you who've read my extensive posts both here and on the Uru forum can attest that I am always honest with these games, when it comes to both good and bad things.

Its just that I really haven't had anything to complain about with Revelation. This game just... seems... perfect!
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

monsieurdavid
07-20-2004, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I shall join you guys in appraisal of everyone who has worked on any Myst game <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[appraisal (noun): an evaluation of the worth, significance, or status of; especially : an expert judgment of the value or merit of]

I myself have learned my lesson, and will not be joining ANYone with any further appraisal of the efforts of the Revelation team. ;-)
(Sorry, EMS; I couldn't resist, under the circumstances ;-)
And to be absolutely clear on the subject, though I understand that the damage has already been done, my apology for the "judgment" remark was completely sincere, and I hope accepted. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JustBrett
07-20-2004, 09:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
I think some of that sarcasm was lost on me, JB!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's just a parody of some of the irrational criticism that has been directed against Team Rev on various forums. A bunch of obvious silliness to remind us not to take mindless hostility and prejudgements too seriously. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pat & Mary: I know you guys weren't just fishing for compliments. Your responses were great, and serve to remind all of us of the boundries of valid criticism and the importance of context.

------------------
*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

Mary_94
07-20-2004, 05:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And to be absolutely clear on the subject, though I understand that the damage has already been done, my apology for the "judgment" remark was completely sincere, and I hope accepted. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MD, please, please don't worry about it!!! I wasn't offended in the least -- I only highlighted the original quote so that I could inject a bit of humor/teasing into my response. Personally, I LOVE it when strong statements are made on these forums. They keep things spicy!!!

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

Animan121
07-20-2004, 07:33 PM
Wow, you guys are mean to the dev's here. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

At UO, we try to not say anything bad about them, because technically, they don't have to go there. I think Pat only goes there to read the praise. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif @Pat

Just wish Mary came around more....(hint, hint)

earthangell
07-21-2004, 11:06 AM
no artificial praising here!! i am truly excited about the upcoming game and any others that Cyan/Ubi endorses in the future!!! All Hail MYST (and related) Games!!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif Now, who wants some jelly doughnuts? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

MoietyAge
07-21-2004, 11:56 AM
Jelly doughnuts sounds good. Can I get two? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
By the way, Im also really excited about this game! I don't know how much longer I can wait.

&lt;&gt;&lt;&gt;&lt;&gt;&lt;&gt;&lt;&gt;&lt;&gt;
I've been dreaming of gummy buffalos

Eat_My_Shortz
07-21-2004, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by monsieurdavid:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I shall join you guys in appraisal of everyone who has worked on any Myst game <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
[appraisal (noun): an evaluation of the worth, significance, or status of; especially : an expert judgment of the value or merit of]
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes err... whats wrong with my statement? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

I've completed my errr *appraisal*, and umm, I'd like to say that my uhh evaluation has concluded that that the Revelation team is of high value and merit. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

matt myat
07-22-2004, 02:27 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

yep me too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

go Rev Team!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

earthangell
07-22-2004, 05:59 PM
we need a cheeeerleader smilie!! GO TEAM GO!!!

----------------------------
Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance...

"Where's my trailor? I need water! Fill my trailor with water!!"
"Es'cape'!! Funny, it's spelled just like the word escape!"

alexz33
07-23-2004, 03:32 AM
Wanna see people be mean with developpers? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Go to the starwarsgalaxies.com forums. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif scary. People there HATE the devs...

Mowog
07-24-2004, 07:15 AM
Let me first state that it's a real treat to read comments by Pat and Mary. Too often, we know nothing at all about game developers and the creative process. Thanks for contributing!

Anyway, I was a little surprised at the Achenar monologue as well, but not really concerned. I expect that the "Big Picture" will put it all in perspective.

If you want to see a game where the choice of dialog is truly a distraction, play Syberia and Syberia II. While I truly enjoyed both titles - they're a stunning piece of work, and I endorse them heartily - the choice of wording used in the English version was peculiar at times. Considering that the story was set in rural France, Eastern Europe, Russia, and the Frozen North, the frequent occurance of casual American colloquialisms and slang seemed quite out of place, especially given the fact that apart from heroine Kate Walker, all the characters were natives of those countries. I'd have expected more of a "movie" approach, with the characters speaking in a somewhat limited and accented English, not common American. You might expect that on a street corner in Chicago, for instance, but not coming from a Russian pilot and former cosmonaut, or a bartender way out in the Russian hinterlands. In any such production where dialog is a part of the illusion, that dialog works best when it's as much in the spirit of the story as the visual environment. Face it, the dialog is part of the environment!

Anyway, I am very much looking forward to Revelation, and the furthering of one of my favorite stories!

http://www.ketcherside.net/mowog.jpg

monsieurdavid
07-24-2004, 08:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Anyway, I was a little surprised at the Achenar monologue as well, but not really concerned. I expect that the "Big Picture" will put it all in perspective.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
After some of the smoke had cleared from the heat of this discussion, I went back and read (and re-read) the dialogue in question, and -- you heard it here! -- on subsequent readings, it doesn't "offend" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif so much as on the first encounter. Which makes me continue to believe that it would have been easy to back off to the point that no one would have taken notice in the first place.

My question at this point is really this: when people say they think it will all be put into perspective, or we need to know the context of the language, do they mean there will be an actual explanation given for the "modern" language, or that it will become irrelevant, which is to say "forgiven" once we're enjoying the game?

JadesDream
07-25-2004, 03:19 PM
If I were the one being asked that question MD...having just viewed the trailer from the Mysterium website, I would say, "Who cares?! It looks AWESOME!! Bring it on!!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*runs to mark her calendar*

Erm...what's the current release date? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif



http://img28.photobucket.com/albums/v85/JadesDream/pots.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=MYST&promo=mw)
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Eat_My_Shortz
07-25-2004, 11:13 PM
Well its been September 23rd, but I saw an official site (I think it was the german site) which says October 1st.

_______________________________________________
To own POTS. That is the difference between knowing the path... and walking the path.

monsieurdavid
07-26-2004, 05:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would say, "Who cares?! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmm... I don't think you've gotten into the spirit of this thread! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As to the release date, it initially was September 7, then I think it changed to September 28. But, like so many others have said, the release date will be when you actually see the box on the shelf. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Rashekfee
07-31-2004, 11:36 PM
Maybe Achenar's journal is bad . . . maybe not. But I think in Saavedro's use of "oh my god" was really out of place in Exile. I think it's a little past its time period. But then, I guess that's what you get when you hire an actor from the movies.