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View Full Version : The FW190/BF109 Stall.



IIJG2OberstWick
03-23-2004, 09:52 PM
Hello Mr. Maddox,

I am not normally one to comment on f/ms - I fly what I am given and use team work with my squad (II/JG2 - II/ZG26) to take down (perceived) overmodeled bandits.

The 190A and D are way too easy to stall. The 109s too to a degree but the 190s are terrible.
Mr Maddox - FB is a gift! A beautifully designed sim - the best yest! Please correct the stall tendency of the aforementioned planes and it will be perfect!

Salute!
II/JG2_Wick.

Edit - this letter should have been - and now is - addressed to Mr. Maddox. I don't care for a f/m debate with everyone. Not being unsociable - I simply I would like Mr. Maddox to acknowlege my post.

Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by IIJG2OberstWick on Wed March 24 2004 at 04:12 PM.]

IIJG2OberstWick
03-23-2004, 09:52 PM
Hello Mr. Maddox,

I am not normally one to comment on f/ms - I fly what I am given and use team work with my squad (II/JG2 - II/ZG26) to take down (perceived) overmodeled bandits.

The 190A and D are way too easy to stall. The 109s too to a degree but the 190s are terrible.
Mr Maddox - FB is a gift! A beautifully designed sim - the best yest! Please correct the stall tendency of the aforementioned planes and it will be perfect!

Salute!
II/JG2_Wick.

Edit - this letter should have been - and now is - addressed to Mr. Maddox. I don't care for a f/m debate with everyone. Not being unsociable - I simply I would like Mr. Maddox to acknowlege my post.

Thanks. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by IIJG2OberstWick on Wed March 24 2004 at 04:12 PM.]

VW-IceFire
03-23-2004, 09:56 PM
FW190 is historically one of the worst planes to stall in. Its high speed stall was notorious for killing pilots and endangering others.

I'm a FW190 fan...but this is something that feels very right about this bird.

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faustnik
03-23-2004, 10:01 PM
Something changed in Aces that make the 190 stall a hair easier. Fly it a while longer, get used to the change, and you will feel right at home again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Zen--
03-23-2004, 11:09 PM
I agree.

First few days in the 190 after AEP came out, I was floundering all over the place. A few weeks later, I stall the 190 just about as much as I used to in 1.22, which is not often.

It's all about picking up the little shift in the global FM change...the Dora still responds the same way she used to and stalls the same actually (or close enough to it where you won't notice after a while).

The Ta152...now that plane has uncharacteristic stalls according to published accounts about it, but I'm going to roll with what Oleg has given us because while it seems incorrect, its not unflyable in game.

As always with the 190 series...practice and more practice is the key.

-Zen-
Tracks (http://209.163.146.67/tracks)

WWMaxGunz
03-24-2004, 12:04 AM
Watch yer speed and learn the signs. People say the same about the P-38 and it took me a dozen missions plus a huge target fixation to get into a spin, but I finally did it and locked up just a bit too long and a bit too low. Walk the stick while you watch your speed and listen to the wind.


Neal

IIJG2OberstWick
03-24-2004, 01:31 AM
Thank you gentleman. I'm not short on experience but I take your point - with practise you can get used to/manage anything.
I can fly these planes but I still maintain the stall tendency should be pegged back.
We have the P40 and P39 with amazing rates of climb whereas they were underpowered. But I fly German planes so my post is about them. Love the Bf110 - beautiful...as is FB! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My question still stands though - to Mr. Maddox.
S! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

II_JG2_Roth
03-24-2004, 02:22 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif Yes...We all can master flying bricks against Humming Birds. Why should we though? The FW-190's in general was a great bird to fly. Are we all going to ignore Kirt Tanks original testing reviews? Please Oleg...Fix all the FW-190's flight modeling. What more proof can we send you? Other than that...Great game. I love the La-7 and P-39's and Spits that can catch The FW-190 Dora in high persuit after turning from a head on, and the Dora flying 552klm. As I recall folks...Oleg will be fixing the stall issue and will look at the power and speeds of these aircraft...not alone the climb rates. It's frustrating...But we can relax about it and wait for the updates. I too only fly German aircraft. Great to see you in here Oberst Wick. S~

Thanks,
Roth

CHDT
03-24-2004, 02:25 AM
THis stall is well documented on the 190 and must be kept in the game. I like the 190 in AEP and I do want to fly a "real" one and not a "Canada-dry" one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CHDT
03-24-2004, 02:27 AM
Btw, yes the zoom climb and the advantage of the 190 in dive should be adjusted to better values.

If I remember well, this was almost perfect in the first patch after the issue of Forgotten Battles.

Cheers,

WWMaxGunz
03-24-2004, 02:33 AM
Did Kurt Tank say what power and pitch he used in that all too famous low speed stall test? Does that say everything about FW stalls?

What an amazing plane! It should do everything equal or better than almost every other! Turns better that 109 by one person here seems to mean always outturn the 109! I think we should have a sim with buttons for turn left, turn right, up, down, and they will always be what we want....
It will be so crappy that even MS won't want it!

Funny, I didn't find the P40-E to climb so well.


Neal

ucanfly
03-24-2004, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by II_JG2_Roth:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif Yes...We all can master flying bricks against Humming Birds. Why should we though? The FW-190's in general was a great bird to fly. Are we all going to ignore Kirt Tanks original testing reviews? Please Oleg...Fix all the FW-190's flight modeling. What more proof can we send you? Other than that...Great game. I love the La-7 and P-39's and Spits that can catch The FW-190 Dora in high persuit after turning from a head on, and the Dora flying 552klm. As I recall folks...Oleg will be fixing the stall issue and will look at the power and speeds of these aircraft...not alone the climb rates. It's frustrating...But we can relax about it and wait for the updates. I too only fly German aircraft. Great to see you in here Oberst Wick. S~

Thanks,
Roth<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow that is great news, because it is ruining the authenticity of the sim that the Fw190As are such flying bricks relative to even some medium bombers in this sim.

XyZspineZyX
03-24-2004, 12:36 PM
The Focke Wulf is one plane that should be a bear with regard to stalls, snap-stalls and the like. It was designed to be a bit unstable in the roll axis; that's where a lot of its roll rate comes from.

Tvrdi
03-24-2004, 01:00 PM
lol i posted the same FW190 stall issue in the general room http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .....I think it is so obvious that FW190 in the game stalls very quickly and easily...we all should agree about that....Im in VVS squad but I love the game and thr FW series and every undermodeled plane is sadness for me....it was great plane in WW2 and with such poor FM in FB it is realy a sad thing...I dont know what to say further here...

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
03-24-2004, 03:55 PM
I don't get what you're saying.

You're saying you AGREE that the FW190 did have a marked tendency for high speed stalls, and to spin.

Then you say it's undermodelled.

Which is it? I think this part of the plane's FM is fairly well represented. If you don't mind your Ps and Qs with the rudder, you'll be a smoking hole in the ground fast.

Tvrdi
03-24-2004, 04:17 PM
Stiglr wrote:
"You're saying you AGREE that the FW190 did have a marked tendency for high speed stalls, and to spin."

I never said that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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TX-EcoDragon
03-24-2004, 04:18 PM
Its fun!

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S!
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Black 1
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WWMaxGunz
03-24-2004, 04:44 PM
Perhaps economy-box drivers should stay out of formula-1 cars?

Some planes are easier to fly. In them even the best pilots can only do so much and then it's the tactician and strategist that makes the bigger difference. And some planes require a load of skill to bring out the best handling, but their best is what gets them their reputations. To think that just anybody can hop into one and achieve the same results... well sure and a good violin sounds better played by an amateur, all you need is the better instrument to be a pro!


Neal

IIJG2OberstWick
03-24-2004, 05:24 PM
Mr. Maddox - could you please acknowlege my post.

Thank you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
03-24-2004, 05:36 PM
Tvirdy said, and I quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think it is so obvious that FW190 in the game stalls very quickly and easily...we all should agree about that....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you agreeing both that it *does* and *should* stall quickly and easily, or only that it *does*?

I'd argue BOTH. The Focke Wulf, in my various flight simming experiences, is one of the few planes where you have to pre-feed in rudder prior to beginning a turn to offset the snap tendency.

nixon-fiend.
03-24-2004, 05:42 PM
I don't think he will acknowledge it pilgrim.

He's in China right now.

Kwiatos
03-25-2004, 04:13 AM
In AEP every planes stall much more than 1.22. I like it because FM is more close to old IL2 now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tvrdi
03-25-2004, 04:22 AM
stiglr..its my bad english....FW190 DOES STALL very quickly in this game and that is wrong

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

Magister__Ludi
03-25-2004, 06:24 AM
This needs reposting until everybody learns it by heart. There was no bad stall/spin characteristic on Fw-190, not even on the heavier late war ones:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bogdandone/FW190_stall.jpg

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 06:35 AM
Not even on slow moving turns at high power? BS!


Neal

Magister__Ludi
03-25-2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Not even on slow moving turns at high power? BS!


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This fragment does not talk about that, and certainly Fw-190 should did not suffer more from torque than other planes of similar power.

I guess your own bias is the only one showing in this thread Neal.

dahdah
03-25-2004, 08:37 AM
The only unexpected departure from normal flight was the flick/snap stall. No matter what direction the a/c was turning, the event always had the a/c going to port.

Many times this happened when the a/c would try to pull out of a dive and turn at the same time.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Did Kurt Tank say what power and pitch he used in that all too famous low speed stall test?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should he as it was all automatic with the movement of the throttle to keep the required air speed. Not even retrimming was required with the flaps and u/c down, unlike the 109 which went quite nose heavy.

WWMaxGunz
03-25-2004, 08:59 AM
Yes, the flick/snap stall. A torque thing and easy to get at slow speed like in a tight steep climbing spiral or by jamming power on in a turn trying to get speed and lined up with a target at the same time.

I understand that at least the P-51 had the same kind of problem as well and the high speed flip too! I've read accounts of such at least and that it was well known the P-51 could turn upside down in about an instant if you didn't handle it right.

I can't say for sure about the Corsair but it was a real heavy torque plane. Not sure about the P-47. I bet that reading through old flight manuals made for trainees would be the best way to spot for that kind of thing -- who best to warn?

I first learned about the 190 from an account from Robert S. Johnson, IIRC, but also later came across statements of green FW pilots making the mistake of jamming fast on power at the wrong time and dieing because of it. So I don't think it should be a surprise that bleeding speed in a tipstall turn or climbing maneuver at or near full power should cause the 190's to go into spins. The sim may well be quicker about it but that part of the FM applies to all, it can be avoided and talk of always docile FW's is BS to me knowing that under conditions it and at least a few other powerhouse fighters are definitely not.

There's another thread about the stalls. For some odd reason the pros discussing it do not seperate the planes in the sim into those that do and thaose that are unbelievably immune. They must all be Spit-whiners?


Neal

dahdah
03-25-2004, 09:19 AM
No Neal not a slow speed event but a high speed event because of the a/c's geometry. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Magister__Ludi
03-25-2004, 11:12 AM
There are only 2 instances in which bad stall characteristics were reported for Fw-190.

First was on combat trials made by squadron that were about to be equipped with it. Those pilots were familiar with the gentle stall of 109 series, so the difference came as a surprise for them. Problem is that 109, and especially Emil that they flew until then, had the best stall characteristics of all fighter planes at that time - because of the nearly rectangular wings, (which make the wing root stall before wing tip, so no flip) and because of the slats (even if the wing was stalled aileron reversal was not encountered, the pilot could counter the stall more easily, without throwing the plane into a spin). 109 was a plane that did not flip at stall, even in turns (not like in AEP). Fw-190 did flip, but not more than any other plane, and certainly had a better stall/spin characteristic than russian fighters with those highly tapered wings.

Second instance was in Allied tests at high speeds, done by pilots unfamiliar with movable horizontal stabilizers. This situation is the opposite of that encountered by the same pilots who complained of heavy elevators on 109. In a high speed pull out if the plane with movable horizontal stabilizers is in tail heavy trim it can stall (but not before blacking out the pilot - the G's in this trim were high). In the opposite trim the stick was felt heavy, but this was done in order to keep the plane at steep angle dive up to very high speed, in which other planes could not be kept without very heavy stick forces, if at all (pilot had to push the stick very hard in order to keep the plane in dive in fighters not fitted with movable horizontal stabilizers).

Regardless of this, the travel of the Fw-190 stick was normal, Fw-190 had beautifully harmonized controls. Nothing like in AEP, where the slightest stick movement stalls the plane. This should be modelled for Spitfire instead.

PzKpfw
03-25-2004, 02:39 PM
1./JG 51 pilots did not find the Fw 190A-3 stall gentle etc, the pilots were warned specificly the stall was sudden and vicious* if the speed fell below 127mph the port wing would drop without any warning so violently the Fw 190 all but turned over on its back.


1./JG 51 found that when Pulling a G-stall in a tight turn, it would flick over into opposite bank, and you had an incipient spin on your hands.

experienced pilots later learned to use the stall tendancy to their advantage, and stated it was a manouver no Allied AC could follow.

*See: Weal John. Focke-Wulf: Fw 190 Aces of the Russian Front p.10

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

dahdah
03-25-2004, 04:11 PM
"Those pilots were familiar with the gentle stall of 109 series......

..... This should be modelled for Spitfire instead."

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Spitfire pilots were not familular with the characteristics of the Spitfire? They even complained about the inertial weights being added as they did not have the same control as without. The RAE even stated that the inertial weight need not be added to the Mks I, II and V.

One thing I have heard, is if the Spit did depart into a spin it was not easy to get out of. I see the flames coming.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The Fw in Fb needs too much trimming inputs. This not as it should be. The Fw required very little trim adjusting.


John, it was not an opposite bank but always to port, whether it was a right or left turn being made. Allied pilots would even force Fw pilots into such a maneuver, if possible, at low altitudes because they knew that there was not enough altitude for the Fw pilot to recover.

Tvrdi
03-25-2004, 04:19 PM
FW190 stalls faster and easier than almost any other flyable plane....hohoho

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg

VW-IceFire
03-25-2004, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tvrdi:
FW190 stalls faster and easier than almost any other flyable plane....hohoho

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/gnomisa-zerome2.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
...and its largely supposed to. Either way, the FW190 is still the most deadly plane you can fly right now. Virtually all versions are fast, roll quickly, have some level of manuverability at high speeds, best firepower available, excellent responsiveness. Just need a good hand on the controls.

Except in rare circumstances I do not stall the FW190 in a combat situation. The stall isn't really that pronounced unless you do something silly and then it scolds you heavily for it...

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WUAF_GenSwat
03-26-2004, 07:33 AM
Hmm well I seen footage of Bnzing FW's many differant moddels and yet to see stall like this
I strickly fly FW unless a server wouldnt have it or my squad wants to try new plane and new tactics.
TA152 is off the hook in its stall they incorprated wing twists to compensate for this stall and most FW could dive from enormous heights with out Exploding on dive pull outs and wing tears, jus maybe this theory of statics they use to calculate what may or may not of been FM.s and what not, is used to make it more fair for the others planes it seems to me,
I love oleg for this game I have stopped playin other ubi soft games because of it..
Everyone has a right to voice opinions fine
but please dont tell me FW190 is near or close to perfection and these stalls are normal
I have over 25 hard and softbacked books on FW190 and I have only read of certain instances of these stalls, only due to desperate measures to evade an enemy and losing control of AC.
Who said high speeds make this a worse condition hmm the faster you fly less chance of this happening sorry for venting been watching these FW190 posts and most of them are right FW190's need just a little umpfffffffff in a few directions!!!

Kurfurst__
03-26-2004, 08:13 AM
I think stall characteristics are about OK for the 190, the flat spin is being overstated in the Ta152 maybe.In general sense, the behaviour of the 190 is comparable to what I have read, but I it`s maybe a little TOO prone to stall, especially the A-8.


The 109 series are about OK, except for the 109F... which feel like bricks compared to previous models. Actually, the early 109G series seem to handle better. Which is hardly realistic, the 109F was significantly lighter by 200-400 kg, that`s a very significant difference. I think the F-2`s and F-4`s stall behaviour should need to be improved, the rest are fine.

WWMaxGunz
03-26-2004, 03:40 PM
GenSwat, I suggest you research a term generic to all fighter planes known as highspeed stall also called accelerated stall. True of all planes.

Do your books tell you that when rolling a plane that one wing increases AOA while the other decreases? Often pilot accounts leave out the things they know and do automatically. If you fill in the blanks however you please then IRL you will not duplicate their results.


Neal