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View Full Version : Here's what i want, or why buy it.



Megahurt
04-21-2004, 10:04 PM
I have Aces of the deep, SH 1 and SH 2. Why buy this if these things arent included?

1)A dynamic campaign. If i have to repeat a scripted mission over and over to continue...ferget it.

2)lets see some damage inside..Flashing lights during depth charge attack...how bout some spouting water and flooding.

3)during those long repair periods laying on the bottom, how about a walk thru sub to inspect repairs.lets SEE the flooding recede, the smashed glass on guages...maybe hear a few bolts snap. The walk thru isnt a must, but man itd be neat to feel like your there.

4)love to machine gun a few life boats around a sinking ship...guide my sub threw some screaming swimmers. A little das boot type survey of the carnage. Atleast the sounds of pleading sailors as i motor by a sinking ship.

5) When my sub takes a fatal hit, lets see it break up. If im inside i wanna drown..the lights flicker as the water rushes in...if im outside, the boat breaks up and sinks.Let me watch. This snapping to a stat screen is for the birds.

6)Give us a control room thats big enough to look around and hang out in. In AOD, it was great to have some space in there.

Im not trying to ask for the moon. Animated water leakage, a few sounds, a flashing dark screen during depth charges.. cmon, lets have some tension, and the feeling of a real carreer instead of a scripted repeat ove an over campaign. Who agrees?

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Thu April 22 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Sat April 24 2004 at 09:46 PM.]

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Sat April 24 2004 at 09:47 PM.]

Megahurt
04-21-2004, 10:04 PM
I have Aces of the deep, SH 1 and SH 2. Why buy this if these things arent included?

1)A dynamic campaign. If i have to repeat a scripted mission over and over to continue...ferget it.

2)lets see some damage inside..Flashing lights during depth charge attack...how bout some spouting water and flooding.

3)during those long repair periods laying on the bottom, how about a walk thru sub to inspect repairs.lets SEE the flooding recede, the smashed glass on guages...maybe hear a few bolts snap. The walk thru isnt a must, but man itd be neat to feel like your there.

4)love to machine gun a few life boats around a sinking ship...guide my sub threw some screaming swimmers. A little das boot type survey of the carnage. Atleast the sounds of pleading sailors as i motor by a sinking ship.

5) When my sub takes a fatal hit, lets see it break up. If im inside i wanna drown..the lights flicker as the water rushes in...if im outside, the boat breaks up and sinks.Let me watch. This snapping to a stat screen is for the birds.

6)Give us a control room thats big enough to look around and hang out in. In AOD, it was great to have some space in there.

Im not trying to ask for the moon. Animated water leakage, a few sounds, a flashing dark screen during depth charges.. cmon, lets have some tension, and the feeling of a real carreer instead of a scripted repeat ove an over campaign. Who agrees?

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Thu April 22 2004 at 01:30 PM.]

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Sat April 24 2004 at 09:46 PM.]

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Sat April 24 2004 at 09:47 PM.]

Kapitan_Nereus
04-21-2004, 11:30 PM
Your very sadistic comment on machine gunning lifeboats brings up another question... warcrimes, would killing those sailors have any negative impact on you or your crew? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

i highly doubt we'll get the solid script campaign again, it failed once and only a true idiot would try it again, so unless the entire Dev. team are freakin ******s we should get a good campaign this time round...

flickering/shattering lights can be, and hopefuly will be, done
actually seeing the flooding is a good idea, maybe just water spraying from valves etc rather than it actually filling with water (it would hog the CPU too much IMO)
same with bolts snapping, probably will be done!
it definately looks like they are going all out for SHIII
i wouldn't be surprised if most of these things were included http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The Hunt is on..."

Drebbel
04-22-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4)love to machine gun a few life boats around a sinking ship...guide my sub threw some screaming swimmers. A little das boot type survey of the carnage. Atleast the sounds of pleading sailors as i motor by a sinking ship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Go see the medic !


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
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Kejotikk
04-22-2004, 05:04 AM
Or better yet, go see the war tribunal.

I hope you don't really think they did that sort of thing, like in Das Boot they couldn't always take prisoners and had to leave the crew to their fate. But they would never ever shoot people in liferafts down in cold blood for no reason.

As a matter of fact if there was no immediate danger at the time they would often give the people some provisions or even give them a tow closer to the nearest port sometimes.

SOF_Timber
04-22-2004, 08:48 AM
I ("Oberst Oswald") bought Silent Hunter II when it first came out and "Vickers" was making all his mods for the game. Never got "into" the game ( 800 x 600 rez was a real downer for a 21" monitor) but the one thing I really would of enjoyed was a "cool" ending when your sub was destroyed instead of the screen just going black. I'm not "hardcore" as you real simers are but I would like alot of emphasis put on special effects. The game needs to be fun for everyone to be successful in todays marketplace if you want to see a Silent Hunter IV. World War II was brutal and to make the game as realistic and interesting as possible everything should be included. If someone wants "blood & guts" I say give it to them just as there should be the option to manualy fire a torpedo or navagate by the stars. Here's an idea...have the choice to machinegun the lifeboat (forwhat ever reason) or rescue the lifeboat and be rewarded or penalized accordingly. For example...if you rescued the men maybe one of the would kill the U-boat Captian or crew member and the sub would be lost ( so you should of shot the lifeboat) or maybe one of the men gave you valuable information that you could use (makes rescue the right choice). If you just let the lifeboat go on its way maybe they would alert the enemy of your location but you would also lose the info or the risk of a crew member being killed. Put a moral dilemma in what you should do...kill them, rescue or let them float away to their fate. Adjust morale for the crew accordingly...sounds to me it would make the game more fun.

[This message was edited by SOF_Timber on Thu April 22 2004 at 07:57 AM.]

Megahurt
04-22-2004, 09:57 AM
Actually, the German high command recognized that some merchant marine sailors had three and four boats torpedoed from under them. They saw the rescue of these sailors as a threat due to thier redeployment, and therefore quitley encouraged the murder of helpless seaman. It is a cold hard reality, but reality none the less.

Drebbel
04-22-2004, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megahurt:
Actually, the German high command recognized that some merchant marine sailors had three and four boats torpedoed from under them. They saw the rescue of these sailors as a threat due to thier redeployment, and therefore quitley encouraged the murder of helpless seaman. It is a cold hard reality, but reality none the less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your source ?


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

CDragon
04-22-2004, 10:21 AM
I have read that Admiral Doenitz's relatively light sentence (10 years in prison, as compared to other German defendants in the Nuremburg Trials) had something to do with testimony from Admiral Nimitz, the American admiral, regarding unrestricted submarine warfare. Nimitz testified that US submarines were under orders not to assist survivors of ships they sank. This testimony bolstered the defense's argument that the "Laconia" order did not constitute a war crime.

I believe that there was only one documented instance of a German uboat captain ordering the killing of survivors. That captain was tried and executed.

I have read in several histories on the US submarine war with Japan that the American sub ace "Mush" Morton shot at survivors of a japanese troopship he had torpedoed and sunk. That US captain went on to appear on the cover of Life Magazine.

Megahurt
04-22-2004, 11:56 AM
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-13/tgmwc-13-125-04.shtml

Here is a transcript from Donitz's trial. He claims that the order to kill survivors was misunderstood. He does maintain, that other than the capture of captains and first engineers, the rescue of survivors was forbidden as it jeopardized the boats making them vonerable to attack.
He also states
"A directive to take action against lifeboats of sunken vessels and their crews drifting in the sea would, for psychological reasons, hardly be acceptable to U-boat crews, since it would be contrary to the innermost feelings of all seamen. Such a directive could only be considered if by it a decisive naval success could be achieved."
He maintains that when these actions occured (and they did, however rarely) they were the actions of individual commanders and they would be the subject of investigation.

Egan2.0
04-22-2004, 12:05 PM
Also interestingly the Nuremburg warcrimes trials also commented that Germany waged a cleaner submarine war than the allies. I must try to find my source for that one though, i'm afraid.

Machine gunning helpless sailors happened, yes, but not enough to have it simulated, unless there are some severe,( and I meen Really severe) penalties for doing so.

I believe the order to U-boots to avoid rescuing sailors only came about because one boat was attacked by allied aircraft while attempting to do so. ( Was that to with rescuing survivors of the 'Laconia - I can't remember?)

Thomsen9U
04-22-2004, 12:05 PM
To all of our beloved US-friends.....

Don't mix the things O'Kane, Morton and other US-uboat captains did in the Pacific and received the Medal of Honour with the only documentated incident of the german uboat arm, the Peleus incident.

Hollywood is not real history.

Visit the u-boat museum in Rhode Island and ask yourself why all decorated uboat commanders with the MoH are displayed there except Morton....

Greetings from Germany! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://sgaertner.bei.t-online.de/henne.jpg

Thomsen9U
04-22-2004, 12:12 PM
During the Laconia incident the german uboat captain Hartenstein tried to save some hundred survivors (including a lot of italian POW)of an allied troop ship he torpedoed before.

He radioded open over all frequencies the place of his boat and asked for assistance. His boat was filled with survivors on deck, a red cross flag was placed and some lifeboats were towed at the boat.

The boat was attacked by an american plane, machinegunning and bombing the boat and the survivors.

After that D├┬Ânitz forbid any resuce operations endagering the german boats.

When will Hollywood make a movie out of that true(!) story?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://sgaertner.bei.t-online.de/henne.jpg

SOF_Timber
04-22-2004, 12:35 PM
Agh...that is not the kind of Hollywood movie Americans want to see. Unless, of course, Brad Pitt was the pilot than my wife would like to see it I'm sure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CDragon
04-22-2004, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Thomsen9U:
To all of our beloved US-friends.....

Don't mix the things O'Kane, Morton and other US-uboat captains did in the Pacific and received the Medal of Honour with the only documentated incident of the german uboat arm, the Peleus incident.

Hollywood is not real history.

Visit the u-boat museum in Rhode Island and ask yourself why all decorated uboat commanders with the MoH are displayed there except Morton....

Greetings from Germany! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://sgaertner.bei.t-online.de/henne.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Greetings from the US! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

What uboat museum in Rhode Island? The only submarine anything in Rhode Island I can find is this:

Juliett 484 (http://www.juliett484.org/juliett/index.html)

Which on its own sounds like a cool "rhode" trip, being only 45 minutes from where I live. Overnight camping in the sub? Woo hoo. Providence, who'd have guessed?

To his credit, Morton did help fix the torpedo problem.

And everything I learned about WWII I learned from Hollywood! You mean to tell me that the war wasn't won by GIs clearing out machine gun nests with nothing but their entrenching tools? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The Boys from Brazil wasn't a documentary?

Anyway, no offense intended with mixing Mush with Eck! I was trying vainly to make a point about war crimes and holier-than-thou attitudes.

Bon Appetit!

Megahurt
04-22-2004, 01:16 PM
After reading almost the entire transcript of Donitz's trial,ive made the following observations.
Admiral Donitz was a fierce proponent of the Geneva convention and allied prisoners liberated from camps administered by the German Naval Command testified they were treated well and in compliance with the convention.
The allied court accepted the assertion by the defence that the Admiral was not a political force in the Goverment, but a professional soldier, loyal to the standards and practices practiced by all loyal soldiers of every nationality.
In 1942, Hitler had ordered the extermination of commandos he deemed to be sabotours. Donitz saw this as a directive issued to land forces,and there is no evidence that he implemented this policy in naval warfare.

"...To begin with, this does not apply to the Fuehrer's order for the extermination of sabotage commandos dated 18th October, 1942. The prosecution has tried to establish that this order had been expounded to Admiral Donitz in detail, together with all possible objections, shortly after his assumption of the position of Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. It has failed to establish such a claim. In fact, Donitz, as he himself admits, did read or had explained to him the order in question, in the autumn of 1942, in his capacity of commander of submarines, and in the same form in which the front commanders received it."
"...Just as hardly anyone can think seriously of holding a general responsible for the German submarine war, just as little, in my opinion, does it seem justified to hold an Admiral responsible for orders given in land warfare."

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-19/tgmwc-19-179-06.shtml

The murder of survivors was a matter of fact,on all sides of the war, but the German Navy did not engage in the practice as a matter of policy, nor was Donitz convicted of approving of it.
In short, my assertion that the German High command endorsed the murder of helpless seaman, was wrong. My apologies.
As for game play, the action might be undertaken to facilitate escape without detection, with severe consequence to moral and promotion.
As contraversial as the issue is, im convinced it would be a worthy addition to the game.

[This message was edited by Megahurt on Thu April 22 2004 at 01:33 PM.]

CDragon
04-22-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megahurt:
The murder of survivors was a matter of fact,on all sides of the war, but the German Navy did not engage in the practice as a matter of policy, nor was Donitz convicted of approving of it.
As for game play, the action might be undertaken to facilitate escape without detection, with severe consequence to moral and promotion.
As contraversial as the issue is, im convinced it would be a worthy addition to the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember the Peleus incident correctly, Eck's reason for shooting the survivors was to facilitate escape without detection. It didn't save him, however.

Thomsen9U
04-22-2004, 03:56 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gifShame on me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/1072.gif

Only if you stay in RI does not mean that evrything you visit is in the same state!

Sorry about that, I thought RI was a little bit larger....
http://www.ussnautilus.org/

MrDragon you were not the planned receipient of that note, so my apologies that you took it for yours...

Coming back to controversy treatment or interpretation of "war crimes".

It's worth mentioning that allied forces broke more than once first the Geneva convention and even the price rules!

As german uboats tried to fight following the price rule convention the british brought weapons on their merchants, they orderd that a stopped shiped shall send immediately SSS including the position to locate the boat.

The sabotage commandos (you remeber the cool PC-games like Commandos or H&D?) were installed by british forces. Working covered behind enemy lines without wearing uniforms
is aginst the convention of Geneva.
The order from Hitler from 1942 is a reaction of the "Partisan" activities in the Sovietunion and Yugoslavia, both fighting against the rules of the conventition of Geneva.

When german sabotage troops were caught during the battle of the Bulge (Kommando Skorzeny or Brandenburger) disturbing the allied forces behind their lines (also wearing allied uniforms) they were shot immediately.

Now what is the difference? Germany and Japan lost the war. The Allies won. That does not make any difference to the abuse of rules regardless from which site.
(In any case I think we all agree that a war following "rules" was something which was again only in Hollywood movies. When war is on no one will follow rules)

Coming back to Eck. His excuse that he tried to avoid detection was a very lame one. Even one of the top ace commanders ( Don't remember his name) who was interviewed during the trial, did not agree.

It would be interisting to see what had happend if Eck had defended himself with the citation of the actions of Morton and their legal treatment by the US forces....

(PS: If you follow the link above you find the section with the MoH-receipients)

Mahlzeit

Stefan
U 664
http://sgaertner.bei.t-online.de/henne.jpg

SailorSteve
04-22-2004, 05:29 PM
Well, this has so far been an interesting discussion. I have nothing of my own to add, but will continue to follow it with great interest.

I just wanted to say to Megahurt: Thanks for posting the link to that great site! It's in my favorites now.

______________________________
Always keep you clothes and your weapons where you can find them in the dark.

Drebbel
04-23-2004, 01:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megahurt:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-13/tgmwc-13-125-04.shtml

Here is a transcript from Donitz's trial. He claims that the order to kill survivors was misunderstood. He does maintain, that other than the capture of captains and first engineers, the rescue of survivors was forbidden as it jeopardized the boats making them vonerable to attack.
He also states
"A directive to take action against lifeboats of sunken vessels and their crews drifting in the sea would, for psychological reasons, hardly be acceptable to U-boat crews, since it would be contrary to the innermost feelings of all seamen. Such a directive could only be considered if by it a decisive naval success could be achieved."
He maintains that when these actions occured (and they did, however rarely) they were the actions of individual commanders and they would be the subject of investigation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know about those trials, but afaik they do not support your statements. In your previous post you wrote:

........Actually, the German high command recognized that some merchant marine sailors had three and four boats torpedoed from under them. They saw the rescue of these sailors as a threat due to thier redeployment, and therefore quitley encouraged the murder of helpless seaman.....


Again I ask the question: "What is your source?"


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
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Hitman_PAces
04-23-2004, 03:10 AM
I certainly have non the slightest interest on being able to machine gun shipÔ┬┤s survivors. But if this is going to be included as part of the realism and full interactive environment, then please also have the player be court-martialed and hanged on a 3D animation after the war ends.
If we are goind for real and for interacting with the environment despite the consequences, then I demand that commanders that conduct themselves like that get the death penalty

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

CDragon
04-23-2004, 07:21 AM
I would advocate the inclusion of survivors in the game under these conditions:

1) Survivors are true game objects. They can collide, and be collided with. They obey the laws of the games physics engine. They have behaviors. They have attributes.
2) Survivors only appear after a ship is brought under attack. Depending on the "class" of the survivor (merchant seaman, naval seaman, civilian passenger), their moment of appearance will depend on the status of their ship. For example, there will be a chance that an inexperienced or un-battle hardened merchant crew will panic and abandon ship the moment it is struck, even if the ship is not in danger of sinking (it happened).
3) The player may interact with survivors. Some of possible interactions would be rescue, interrogation ("what ship is this? what was your cargo?"), putting them back into lifeboats, giving them supplies and navigation information (chocolates, cigarettes, blankets, and pointing them toward the nearest landfall, for instance).
4) Rescued survivors may be transferred to other friendly vessels.
5) Survivors are indestructible. This is a deal breaker for some players, I'm sure, but hear me out. Assume survivors are destructible, are killable. During a surface gun attack on a merchant ship, the player succeeds in damaging it enough to trigger the lowering of lifeboats, but not enough to sink it. There are now survivors in the water, close by the merchant. The player continues his bombardment. By chance, a missed salvo lands amongst the survivors, striking a lifeboat, killing all aboard. The player has just killed survivors. How is the sim, the program, the computer code, suppose to know it was by accident and not by intention? If the sim treats survivor deaths at the hand of the player as always bad, then the game will end, the player courtmartialed. What would happen that if instead the player, distracted by the heat of battle at night, drives his boat through a swarm of bobbing, life-jacketed survivors, killing some? Off hand, I can remember reading about one incident of shells from a deck gun striking a lifeboat that was being lowered, killing the occupants. I'm sure there are countless stories. My point is that the sim cannot know with certainty if a survivor was killed by accident or by intention. These are a few ways of dealing with this:

a) Rule that all survivor deaths by the hand of the player are intentional, whether that is true or not. This would compel the player to be real careful when survivors were known to be about. But accidents do happen, and many a game would end after the player drove his boat into a lifeboat he never saw because of poor visibility.

b) Create a set of conditions describing when a survivor's death at the hands of the player would be considered intentional. This may be too hard or nigh impossible to do. And like all rules in computer games, there will be loopholes.

c) Leave the morality up to the player. The game will not punish him for survivor deaths. Rather, the game will reward rescue or aid of survivors, as an encouragement to do so. This would be somewhat unrealistic, as the death of survivors during an attack, whether intentional or not, always generated much propaganda and bad feeling. A captain would always have to face the music upon returning to port.

d) Make the survivors indestructible. This removes the problem of determining intent by the player, while still allowing survivors to exist and function.

e) Leave out survivors altogether.

FredFireFox
04-23-2004, 07:56 AM
I'd rather prefer e). Certainly, I don't really get why some people want to have survivors implemented in the game, not only would this feature need a lot of CPU but it's, at least in my opinion, senseless. Might be survivors would make things more realistic but hey, this is only a simulation, not everything has to be exactly as it was during WW2 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Megahurt
04-23-2004, 09:12 AM
I just reinstalled SH 2. I started the campaign. My first mission ofcoarse, the polish destroyers. I let them slip by, i know i know, shame on me. I ended the mission at port..Next mission? Exactly the same one. I closed the "game" and probly wont open it for a while. Take the scripted campaign and....

Hermann44
04-23-2004, 10:00 AM
im just wondering if some people here are serious or kidding..

you want the dev. team to divert ressources so u can talk to survivers or even shoot at them, maybe listening to them singing "Tipperary" in theit liveboats?
Some more ideas:
I want to be able to go to toilett on my u-boat.
I want to be able to go on-shore at the US coast.
I want to be able to operate the "Enigma" myself, maybe a manual included?
i want to be able to capture, repair and fly a emergency-landed "Catalina", after i shot and damaged it.

more to come, dear dev. team!

Megahurt
04-23-2004, 03:12 PM
Hermann... You got me laughing pretty hard. You're right. Maybe the wish list is outta hand. lol. I can't stop laughing while im writing this. The oil slick vickers made could have a raft or two in it. black dots in the water milling about as heads bobbing arent really that big a stretch.
I have to say the new screen shots are incredible. The devolopment team is doing magnificent job on the graphics. Game play is still an important aspect.
After that first mission in SH2 (ive played it threw before) where i missed the polish ships, i went and sank a nuetral ship. Rather than being forced to repeat the mission, destroying any sence of reality, id rather have been stripped of rank and sent to the deck with a mop.I do agree with your critisism, maybe i have been a little over demanding. It just seems that with todays breed of games, where you can sit side by side in a helicopter, (Jiont Operations) and actually nod to each other while pionting at a drop zone, defended by 85 online players, jump out, stab someone and steal thier jeep, and drive it threw the wall of a hut with machine guns blazing, that shooting up a life raft, or getting a mission debriefing that actually takes toll of what happened in the mission, wouldn't be too much to ask. The hardcore "i love subs and im just glad to be underwater" simmer, probly accounts for 3% of the gaming market. 97% of us are looking to spend our money to get the most bang for the buck. If the devolopment team is happy with 3% of the gaming dollar, than great, make it like SH2 and keep the want ads handy.

Egan2.0
04-23-2004, 04:28 PM
I'd like a workable Enigma machine.....

Re; shooting survivors; The simple answer to it all is that its never gonna happen for the reason that the game's age (is this called ESLPA?) classification would go straight up to the highest level thus loosing lots of sales.

Can't see Ubi being down with that somehow...

Megahurt
04-24-2004, 09:39 AM
Egan, if that were true, thered be no friendly fire in all the blood and guts games there are. Why do u think grand theft auto sales went threw the roof? Because beating up ******s and murdering cops was unpopular?

Kapitan_Nereus
04-24-2004, 10:18 AM
your comparing two very different genres there, they can't be put even close to each other, SH is a WW2 naval combat sim, and GTA is a psychopath sim
two very different things

RE: to CDragon's list, i'm going to say D (if it can be done without chugging up the CPU) or E (if it does chug up the CPU then screw it)

"The Hunt is on..."

Drebbel
04-24-2004, 10:26 AM
Those would be some awesome features CDragon

I'll go for 'D' as well.


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
http://www.DutchSubmarines.com/
We have a NEW FORUM:
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/phpbb2/
http://www.dutchsubmarines.com/hosting/images/sig/drebbel/kmoorlwp.gif

Megahurt
04-24-2004, 10:49 AM
Ya know,im kinda sorry i even mentioned the shooting survivors thing...however, it seems this whole thread seemed to focus on that one addition. It seems to have evoked contraversy and discussion. Incase you're unwaware, contraversy and discussion is what sells these days.

Egan2.0
04-24-2004, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megahurt:
Egan, if that were true, thered be no friendly fire in all the blood and guts games there are. Why do u think grand theft auto sales went threw the roof? Because beating up ******s and murdering cops was unpopular?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, for a start, its an utterly different type of game. Besides, how many people actually buy GTA games to beat up ******s? I've played them all and i don't think i've ever done that once. And as far as i'm aware, 'freindly fire' isn't usually a calculated act of murder.

SH3 is aiming for a different market. The comment about ELSPA ratings was orignially made by one of the developers of 'Dangerous Waters' when asked about the inclusion of a similar feature for their Nuke subsim. It still holds.

Personally, I'd go for 'D' as well. I'd like to see debris floating on the water too.

TheAirMarshal
04-24-2004, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> don't really get why some people want to have survivors implemented in the game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably because seeing lifeboats full of hapless sailors from the DD you just torpedoed greatly adds to the sense of immersion.

I don't think it will be included because it will be hard to animate the lowering of the lifeboats(and the crew) and it would look stupid to have them just spawning in the water.

TheAirMarshal
04-24-2004, 06:24 PM
The suggestion about the flooding / drowning and FPS-like elements is what I would really want to see in a U-Boat sim.

I was thinking about doing a U-Boat Half-Life mod, where the player can roam around the interior of the submarine as well as operating it and giving orders to the crew NPCs, but I lack the skill.

badhat17
04-24-2004, 08:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egan2.0:

how many people actually buy GTA games to beat up ******s? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guilty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Egan2.0
04-25-2004, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by badhat17:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egan2.0:

how many people actually buy GTA games to beat up ******s? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Guilty http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL. My faith in human nature has just been torpedoed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Redwine
04-26-2004, 09:10 AM
In the Laconia incident, the Kapitan of the U-boot attempt to rescue all survivors.......

Childs and wonen was inside the submarine, some other survivors was at sub deck, he sail on surface....... and towing many life boats with hundred of survivors..........

He send radio messages declaring a stop of war actions until survivors are at secure post......

He call for all ships, friendly ship and enemy ships to run to save survivors, and declare a big zone as a disaster zone with no war actions.........

A B-24 detect him......... this b-24 return to its base in Ascension Island, and there the Allied Commender decide to send another B-24 to destroy the sub............ I watch his declarations in TV......... this commander survive the war up to recent days......

The second B-24, search and found the U-Boot, and attack it with bad look......... he hit the life boats killing about more than 200 survivors..........

Kapitan was enforced to dive, I watch the declarations of an allied woman inside the sub in TV..........

Due to this action, The german Command declare the "War with no Restrictions"........

Donitz save his life due to his lawman declare the american used the same method of no restrictions in the pacific war........

Font History Channel - BBC London


The only bad and sad situation I remember was an american sub, wich locate a japanesse troop transport convoy, the captain sink some of transports........ but survivors was near of some islands or some thing........ and was able to reach the coast or some thing.........

This capitan decide to kill them ...........

In the TV document, they mentioned the sub was all the day killing survivors........ and kill thousand of them..........

In the TV document I see a japanesse survivor approaching the sub to request help, and a submarine officer take his handgun, a colt 1911 i remember, and splash the brain of the survivor....... very sad and impresive.........

I do not remember the name of the sub........

Font History Channel - BBC London.

Kill survivors was not common, may be that happens, but was not a pactice, was a exception.........

Kapitan Langdorsff of Graff Spee, who rest in my country........ was knowed by his practice to take survivors and onboard his ship, and bring them to a safe place........

I read, some time he had up to 600 survivors onboard...........

War criminals was not the standar was some isolated situations in regular forces....... I think so.........

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Redwine
04-26-2004, 09:16 AM
I am not sure......... I dont remember well, I watch the TV document and it was not replayed never more another time......... but may be the USS Wahoo ??

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CDragon
04-26-2004, 09:41 AM
I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it again. I want to game to come with beer. Three versions of the game will be available:

1) The Non-Alcoholic Beer version. For the underage and recovering alcoholic sub simmer.

2) The Bottle of Beer version. Boxed version, complete with a bottle of genuine german beer. For the sophisticated sub simmer to sip while perusing the encyclopedic manual

3) The Case (or Keg) of Beer version. Boxed version, complete with a coupon for a case (or keg) of genuine german beer, redeemable at your local liquor store. For the hardcore sub simmer to consume after surviving yet another patrol.

...or to drown your deep sorrow at the not-AOD like campaign included with a game.

Redwine
04-26-2004, 11:22 AM
Hi.....Cdragon.........

If your response is for me..... sorry, I can not to undersand anything.......

I only talk about themes exposed in this post ..........

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Tetrapack
04-26-2004, 04:06 PM
For more informations about the incidents mentioned in this thread:

The Peleus Incident:
http://uboat.net/history/peleus.htm

The Laconia incident:
http://uboat.net/ops/laconia.htm

And this one:
Treatment of Merchant Ship Survivors by U-boat Crews 1939 - 1945 (http://www.uboat.net/articles/index.html?article=55)

U-319
04-26-2004, 04:37 PM
Yeah, i remember watch "the True Color of War" on the History channel. And they had color film showing the US sailors on the Sub shooting the japanese sailors.

Clemens U-319

Tetrapack
04-26-2004, 05:15 PM
The war at sea in the Pacific was somewhat harder on both sides. The crews of Japanese submarines killed in several cases the survivors of Allied merchant ships not only by machine-gunning, but also took some of the men on board and decapitated them or thrown them overboard with their hands tight behind the back.

Megahurt
04-27-2004, 07:46 AM
It seems the Japanese had absolutely no regard for the "rules of war", either in thier occupation of conquored territory or during the capture of prisoners. The Japanese considered any of thier own soldiers who surrendered as dishonourable, and treated any captured enemies without regarding how thier own captured soldiers were treated. This lead to an escalation of atrocities commited by all sides in the pacific war. Survivors of Batan, and other campaigns are full of documemented horror stories that tell of the ritualistic murder of captured stories. The pacific sea war was no different.

CDragon
04-27-2004, 09:54 AM
Oooo, speaking of Japanese sailors, and dynamic campaigns, makes me think...

Any dynamic campaign generator worth it's sea salt would need to include the possibility of encountering a japanese submarine in the Atlantic. More so if you as Uboat Kaleun are operating in the Indian Ocean. However slim that chance is.

Because japanese subs did appear in the Atlantic, ferrying much needed raw materials to their German allies.

Did the AOD dynamic campaign have japanese subs? Huh? Did it? Huh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tetrapack
04-27-2004, 11:48 AM
I would like to see Italian submarines, they operated more often with the U-boats.

And of course supply ships and/or raiders to refuel and rearm U-boats in the South Atlantic in 1941/42 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

CDragon
04-27-2004, 12:12 PM
And for Drebbel, there'll be Dutch submarines. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Italian subs. Spanish subs. Russian subs. Swiss subs. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

If the Devs make the game open enough, modders could add submarines. Nobody will be forgotten. No nation of the world will go unrepresented in the world war.

jagtigermk2
04-29-2004, 04:22 PM
Please can you add the ability to pick up or shoot survivors.

[This message was edited by jagtigermk2 on Fri April 30 2004 at 11:08 AM.]

Drebbel
04-30-2004, 10:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Please can you add the ability to pick up or shoot survivers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the minimum age for this forum was 5 years !

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And for Drebbel, there'll be Dutch submarines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Drebbel

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jagtigermk2
04-30-2004, 12:02 PM
It will never be a realistic sub sim if there are no survivors from damaged and sinking boats. What are the boats remote controlled from home base? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.

Drebbel
04-30-2004, 12:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagtigermk2:
It will never be a realistic sub sim if there are no survivors from damaged and sinking boats. What are the boats remote controlled from home base? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally think that asking for an option to shoot survivors is kind of sick.


Drebbel

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jagtigermk2
04-30-2004, 12:32 PM
It's all part of the sea war of ww2, like when the royal navy left most of the bismarck crew to drown on purpose, so to get revenge for the sinking and loss of crew to the hood.

Drebbel
04-30-2004, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagtigermk2:
It's all part of the sea war of ww2, like when the royal navy left most of the bismarck crew to drown on purpose, so to get revenge for the sinking and loss of crew to the hood.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think games should simulate atrocities like that with the only reason that it was 'part of the war'.

Next thing they will simulate hanging civilians, shooting kids, showing burning corpses, starving people, sHidler's propaganda, infected wounds, survivors eaten by sharks, gas chambers, people going nuts, abuse of power, people being raped, showing someone drowning, people being tortured....... Just because it was 'all part of the war'. If you show that stuff one should have a better argument then ' it was part of the war'.

I can do without warcrimes and other terrible stuff. That stuff is best shown (and commented on) in documentaries and/or books.


Drebbel

The Submarines of the Royal Netherlands Navy 1906 - 2004
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We have a NEW FORUM:
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jagtigermk2
04-30-2004, 05:11 PM
Fair point, but i still think it would make the game more interesting.

ulfr1066
04-30-2004, 09:39 PM
To me the inclusion of survivors isn't much different than the inclusion of flight crews bailing out of aircraft, an item that has long been a part of flight sims. It does provide some realistic situations of merchants abandoning ship early when under attack, changing the tactical situation for the attacking commander. The abandonment of a target ship allows an attacker to dispatch a ship much easier, especially if the target was traveling alone, perhaps even to board and scuttle the enemy vessle saving costly ammunition. Though these situations are far more common in the First World War, they are still documented in the Second. I also point out that Il2 and its subsequent follow on (Ubisoft's most profitable sim ventures to date) have had targetable parachutists from the very beginning. Lets not kid ourselves into thinking that we are not simulating the deaths of other humans. Whether or not those boats are shown going into the water and the men into the sea, in the North Atlantic especially, some, if not all, would probably die.

As towards the firing on crews in the water. Right or wrong, all major combatants at one time or the other dispatched downed airmen or seamen in distress. As others have pointed out above, a number of television programs have recently shown some of the United States boats' attacks on Japanese survivors. It is also documented of German boats. Yes, these could be construed as war crimes, though it is doubtful that such actions would ever have seriously jeopardized a officers career during the war &lt;as some above seem to contend&gt;, certainly not with the Kriegsmarine even if it brought the ire of neutral states. Then again all unrestricted sub warfare would be crimes under existing law, but the Allies relied upon it just as much as the Axis. Modern submarine warfare simply no longer allows for the appropriate treatment of victims, despite some WWII captains better efforts.

While I would understand if survivors would not be targetable by players, I think that abandonment, and appropriate subsequent target reactions would be a good addition to the sim. I base this on experience with similar events in flight sims. An abandoned aircraft or ship proves an immersive feature and a interesting factor in how to prosecute further attacks, and need not be controversial.

And I would be one of those who would welcome a simulated enigma so I guess I belong in the aforementioned 3%. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ParaB
05-01-2004, 12:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ulfr1066:
And I would be one of those who would welcome a simulated enigma so I guess I belong in the aforementioned 3%. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Add me to the 3%, too.

We're a mighty large 3%. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Good post regarding the abandoning of a ship by its crew.

Hi...
05-02-2004, 03:20 PM
Don't forget the story of Lott's U-35, and the Diamantis, Lott took all 28 men on his ship, taking 4 men at a time. After a few days, he landed the men on the coast of Ireland, taking 7 runs with the lifeboat to get all the men ashore. They slipped away before they could be interred.

Check here for more info: http://u-35.com/diamantis/

jagtigermk2
05-02-2004, 07:05 PM
Have never heard that story before, it seems in the early years the u-boat comanders tried to save merchant crew lives by warning them to get of the boat.

I heard it was Churchill who orderd merchant boats to start carrying hidden guns so to catch the u-boats who would come to the surface. After that order the Germans could no longer safely warn the merchant vessels and had torpedo without warning.

SailorSteve
05-02-2004, 09:30 PM
Actually they went through the same thing 25 years earlier. U-boats would surface and check papers, allow crews to abandon ship and then scuttle it, thereby saving torpedoes. The real purpose for the paper checking was to make sure they didn't sink neutrals. The British came up with the Q-ship, which would whip out the guns and blast away, so the Germans started firing submerged and the Brits cried "foul"! Of course it might have been Churchill then as well; he was First Lord of the Admiralty for a good part of WWI.

Of course that's not entirely true; in both wars warships were fair game for submerged firing right from the start.

______________________________
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jagtigermk2
05-10-2004, 07:22 AM
Looking on this forum site i have realized this game will never meet our expectations. Our only chance is for us to all chip in and buy a old rusty ww2 U-Boat. We could repair the boat then we will have a real U-Boat sim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Bruno_Lotse
05-10-2004, 11:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drebbel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Megahurt:
Actually, the German high command recognized that some merchant marine sailors had three and four boats torpedoed from under them. They saw the rescue of these sailors as a threat due to thier redeployment, and therefore quitley encouraged the murder of helpless seaman. It is a cold hard reality, but reality none the less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your source ?

Drebbel
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Get Das Boot. Not the movie - the original thing - Gunter Buchheime's novel. There in the first chapter at a bar in La Rochelle UBoot Captains discuss the issue what they were actually doing. Are they in DEMOLITION business, i.e. demolish an enemy ship and allow enemy sailors to flee and in a couple of weeks sail another enemy ship which US can cook up like pancakes. Or are they AT WAR with an enemy which means that the crew is more important target than the ship herself. No matter how many ships US cooks up if there is no more experienced crew around and all the rest are scared to death go out at see no matter how much you're willing to pay them - what is the war value of all those newly built ships?
Well, this is a novel, yet dilemma is real, isn't it?
Bruno Lotse
U45

[This message was edited by Bruno_Lotse on Mon May 10 2004 at 11:28 AM.]

Kriegspiel
05-10-2004, 05:01 PM
I am going to kill anything that moves! Be it ships, people, flying saucers--it's DEAD with me on patrol. I don't care what the books or what history states. I am large and in charge; I am in command of my boat and her crew. If my crew objects to my orders then they can swim back to port. If this game comes with multiplayer, YOU may be my next victim! So don't preach your morals on me because I am going to finish what Germany started! And in the end YOU will answer to me if you aren't already dead. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif

Redwine
05-10-2004, 05:16 PM
[/QUOTE]
Get Das Boot. Not the movie - the original thing - Gunter Buchheime's novel. There in the first chapter at a bar in La Rochelle UBoot Captains discuss the issue what they were actually doing.[/QUOTE]



Mmmmmhhh....... excuse my disapointment

A conversation in a bar ...... between two drunks ......... in a novel book..............
I think so it is not a serius font of information....... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Regards, Red.

______________________________
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
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Bruno_Lotse
05-10-2004, 05:35 PM
You know saying?

What is in a sober man's head - when he's drunk is at the tip of his tongue.

And what is in skipper's head is more important than all laws and regulations put together particularly when those laws and regulations are murky and contradictory.

Bruno Lotse
U45

Bruno_Lotse
05-10-2004, 06:15 PM
Remember another scene from the novel where they were rigged to torpedo a passenger ship and at the last moment realized that that was a Spanish one? Verner asked what would happen if there torpedo hit that scow. The Old Man's answer:
"It's perfectly simple: We'd have had to wipe the slate clean. Typical case... There would have been no survivors!
It would have been typical situation that you never find in rules. In cases like this you're completely on your own. All the Navy does is tell you you have complete discretion. That you should use your own judgment... You can't do these things by half-measures."
No survivors!!! Wipe slate clean!!! No half-measures!!! I hear MG-35 roar in these statements. Brrrrrrrrrrrr
I wonder why they cut out these scenes from the movie? Too honest?... Too revealing?...
Great book. No 'political correctness'.

Bruno Lotse
U45

[This message was edited by Bruno_Lotse on Mon May 10 2004 at 05:30 PM.]

Redwine
05-11-2004, 08:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bruno_Lotse:
You know saying?

What is in a sober man's head - when he's drunk is at the tip of his tongue.


Bruno Lotse
U45<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Soo good and true.....!

But I insist, you are taking a novel as hostory font......., please do not take bad my disapoint.....

The following is a replay of a real conversation.........

After the Laconia incident, Hitler give the order to Doenitz called "no restrictions war", but the order applied was not the original one......

Originally, Hitler saids to Doenitz....... no restrictions, and this included the killing of all survivor as revenge for the coward B-24 attack to a sub in "rescue" operations.

My english is so bad, but Doenitz saids.......

"No, my Fuerer, I can not to acomplish that order.......

My boys are the elite of the elite, and accomplish that order will detstroy their moral ......"

Converting Doenitz in the only one Officer knowed who was capable to said "NO" to the Fuerer about a direct order in his face..........

Kriegsmarine was not nazi in average, nazis has problems to poenetrate this navy force, due to this they implement a "Political Officer" onboard of each ship as is well knoweed, to stablish vigilance over the Kapitan.

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Bruno_Lotse
05-11-2004, 10:58 AM
Depends what you mean by Nazis. Nazi is a shortening and alteration from Nationalsozialist, i.e. a member of NSDAP party. The problem is there were no NSDAP party members either in Armee, or Luftwaffe, or Kriegmarine. Will you please show me a single WWII photo of a guy in a German military uniform (please, do not show me political elite like Hoering) with that famous round badge with swastika - a badge of Nazi party affiliation. I do not think you will succeed. You know why? Because in Germany it was FORBIDDEN BY LAW to have any party affiliation (NSDAP is a party) while you are on active military duty. I do not know about Waffen SS but those guys are separate story. They were 'private army' of NSDAP.

Das Boot is a novel. But let me remind you that this novel was not written by some Ecstasy-junky twenty-something Willie typing away his ideas about the Great War while never seen anything beyond Hollywood. Gunter Buchheime was actually at that Great War, he was actually a Kriegmarine, he was actually aboard of UBooten and in those pubs with his fellow-officers, he actually heard what they were talking about, he actually saw what they did. Das Boot is a novel yet while reading it you cannot escape a feeling of an honest memoir account. And as memoir account Das Boot is composed from personal experience of the author.


Bruno Lotse
U45

Redwine
05-11-2004, 11:50 AM
Hi Bruno......

I know that facts, that I do not know is how far of law they has went.......

Finally, nazis manage the laws and german military forces near to their pleasure.

Novel based on an real fact or historical fact, may ahve some of real, but you can not to forget, as a novel all them has a part of dramatization, imaginary situations, and in some cases invented situations, to make them more interesting to customer public.......

Is my opinion, only an opinion, not more, you must to mange carefully the information incoming from a novel book.......... just an opinion, finally you are fre to do that you want........

The historical average is to kill survivors was not a common practice, instead was only isolated situations.........

Conversation between Doenitz and Hitler was real and I hear about it in some articles and in the TV historical documents, and if I dont remember bad, was one of the factor which save the life of Doenitz after Nueremberg.......

Best regards, Red.

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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
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The Ancient History of the Submarine
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Bruno_Lotse
05-11-2004, 12:28 PM
Nice talking to you, Red http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Bruno Lotse
U45