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cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 08:20 PM
AC Unity perhaps get more hate than it deserves, but to me its biggest sin was something far more unforgivable than merely being a "bad" game- for me, it was forgettable, and I truly hope that it is not representative of the trajectory of the series.

Now, one of the ways that games can prevent themselves from becoming unforgettable is by having missions that really shake up the formula. We've seen this with the Scarecrow hallucinations in Arkham Asylum,the Skrillex-fueled weed burning fest in Far Cry 3, and the Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2- missions all highly regarded by fans. Like the Arkham hallucinations and the "We Don't Go to Ravenholm..." mission in Half-Life 2, some of these can be very genre-defying missions.

Now, as much as we love it, Assassins Creed is typically a somewhat formulaic game. Each game has a relatively similar feel to the rest of the series- and that's okay, because anything else would create a strange continuity! So, instead of creating an AC game within a completely different genre, I am suggesting only some missions that bend the genre a bit.

So, I'd like to submit some ideas for some genre-bending missions in the future. Some, such as horror, could work well in the series, perhaps in conjunction with some POE gone wrong. Others, such as Romance, may be weaker- but I'll leave that up to your discretion! So, if you vote on a genre, please feel free to defend your vote with an explanation of a possible use it could have in an AC game.

Remember, while we want to revolutionize this hypothetical future game, we don't want to come across as gimmicky. This is where ideas like the tower defense game in ACR failed- so just keep that in mind!

Thanks!

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 08:31 PM
AC Unity perhaps get more hate than it deserves, but to me its biggest sin was something far more unforgivable than merely being a "bad" game- for me, it was forgettable, and I truly hope that it is not representative of the trajectory of the series.

Now, one of the ways that games can prevent themselves from becoming unforgettable is by having missions that really shake up the formula. We've seen this with the Scarecrow hallucinations in Arkham Asylum,the Skrillex-fueled weed burning fest in Far Cry 3, and the Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2- missions all highly regarded by fans. Like the Arkham hallucinations and the "We Don't Go to Ravenholm..." mission in Half-Life 2, some of these can be very genre-defying missions.

Now, as much as we love it, Assassins Creed is typically a somewhat formulaic game. Each game has a relatively similar feel to the rest of the series- and that's okay, because anything else would create a strange continuity! So, instead of creating an AC game within a completely different genre, I am suggesting only some missions that bend the genre a bit.

So, I'd like to submit some ideas for some genre-bending missions in the future. Some, such as horror, could work well in the series, perhaps in conjunction with some POE gone wrong. Others, such as Romance, may be weaker- but I'll leave that up to your discretion! So, if you vote on a genre, please feel free to defend your vote with an explanation of a possible use it could have in an AC game.

Remember, while we want to revolutionize this hypothetical future game, we don't want to come across as gimmicky. This is where ideas like the tower defense game in ACR failed- so just keep that in mind!

Thanks!

Well I would argue that AC has had genre defying missions all along.
AC1 -
Opening sequence, where you defend Masyaf is a straight medieval combat mission.
Battle of Arsuf is another medieval battle mission and unlike all the other Assassination missions here you end with Trial by Combat.
Finale of AC1, Magical Boss Fight that's super-gamey.

AC2
You have the Ezio and Leonardo Carriage chase through the Apennine Mountains
You have Flying Machine mission
Carnevale is pure Renaissance Fair cosplay.
Battle of Forli is medieval siege and defend
Finale is a huge conflict.

ACB + ACR - You can actually argue that these games have more genre defying missions than pure AC. It's actually more of a Tomb mission and archeology game like Tomb Raider/Uncharted

AC3 - Well there's so many activities and stuff here that's not part of a single genre. The Homestead is basically a Zelda Errand Mission chain. Naval is Naval. Hunting is Hunting. You also have Tomb Levels and investigations and tracking missions. The main story features amazing battlefields and a range of missions.

Black Flag, you can argue is more monomaniacal in its focus on piracy. But even then you have puzzle, you have underwater and in the case of legendary ships, shadow of the colossus on sea.

LoyalACFan
10-19-2015, 08:38 PM
I came into this thread expecting it to be about the rise of action setpieces in AC, and I was about to vehemently preach the gospel against them. But you've taken it in a different direction so I applaud you for sparing me the necessity of frothing at the mouth about the stupidity of 'splosion-filled missions in AC :p

I agree that the most memorable scenes in games are often the ones that deviate the most from the standard gameplay. Recently, I played through just such a scene in MGS5 that actually wrenched my emotions around like few other things I've ever played...

I'm talking about the horror-inspired medical platform scene, where Big Boss is forced to murder his loyal soldiers mid-salute while his "Hero" theme plays on the radio. God. Damn. That really hit me hard.

So I would certainly welcome this sort of thing in AC if the occasion is right. However, I'm reluctant to vote in the poll because I think it's something that just has to evolve naturally out of the game rather than starting out from the beginning saying "we need an exotic mission, how to we work one in?" Just look at Unity's acid-trip training scene. That wasn't demanded by the character or the story, it was just ripped wholesale from the Demon Trials in Batman: Arkham City by someone who thought "that was cool, we should do that in our game," and it was one of the lamest, most forgettable "exotic" missions ever.

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 08:48 PM
So I would certainly welcome this sort of thing in AC if the occasion is right. However, I'm reluctant to vote in the poll because I think it's something that just has to evolve naturally out of the game rather than starting out from the beginning saying "we need an exotic mission, how to we work one in?" Just look at Unity's acid-trip training scene. That wasn't demanded by the character or the story, it was just ripped wholesale from the Demon Trials in Batman: Arkham City by someone who thought "that was cool, we should do that in our game," and it was one of the lamest, most forgettable "exotic" missions ever.
Absolutely, I wouldn't want the devs to shoehorn anything like this into a game, I'm really just looking for what we as players think might fit in naturally with the series, as well as justifications for that.

Also, I was totally thinking about the Unity "acid trip" thing when I made this post. I totally agree that Unity's attempt at this was very weak, however I really liked Edward's drunken descent into almost losing himself in ACBF, and that was a relatively similar concept with (in my opinion) a much stronger execution.

LoyalACFan
10-19-2015, 09:06 PM
Absolutely, I wouldn't want the devs to shoehorn anything like this into a game, I'm really just looking for what we as players think might fit in naturally with the series, as well as justifications for that.

Also, I was totally thinking about the Unity "acid trip" thing when I made this post. I totally agree that Unity's attempt at this was very weak, however I really liked Edward's drunken descent into almost losing himself in ACBF, and that was a relatively similar concept with (in my opinion) a much stronger execution.

Yeah, Edward's was way better, even though I still wasn't a huge fan of it mostly because it felt nothing like being drunk. You drink to drown your sorrows, not produce powerful hallucinations of them ;)

But I think this kind of thing works better when you have a more established identity to work with. If you're trying to subvert something, that thing needs to have a REALLY distinct identity on its own. Like the MGS mission I mentioned; it was subverting the "Legendary Hero" mantra of the series (plus hero-worship in more general terms). AC has kind of lost its sense of identity over the years, and I dunno that any sort of exotic mission could make us reexamine the way we think about AC as a series.

It can work for individual characters (like it did with Edward) but similarly, it works better if you have a well-established character and a lot of previous context to work with. They tried putting us directly into Arno's hallucinations right at the very beginning of his story, which was a really weird and ineffective way of introducing us to the character since we really didn't have much conception of what his motivations were, and they just tossed us straight into what was supposed to be his subconscious mind. In other words, Edward's hallucination was a way of illustrating how he was mentally processing his loss and his own complicity in a dark and violent lifestyle, whereas Arno's just said "character is sad because stepdad is dead." Um, thanks, but I could have worked that out on my own. Plus Edward's was just much better-done in general, with thematically-relevant iconography and visual style versus Unity's generic floating-platforms dream world BS.

SixKeys
10-19-2015, 09:07 PM
So I would certainly welcome this sort of thing in AC if the occasion is right. However, I'm reluctant to vote in the poll because I think it's something that just has to evolve naturally out of the game rather than starting out from the beginning saying "we need an exotic mission, how to we work one in?" Just look at Unity's acid-trip training scene. That wasn't demanded by the character or the story, it was just ripped wholesale from the Demon Trials in Batman: Arkham City by someone who thought "that was cool, we should do that in our game," and it was one of the lamest, most forgettable "exotic" missions ever.

^ This. Though I actually liked the scene in Unity. Sure, it's been done before in other games but such missions can have a place in AC in the right context. What I didn't like was the sequence where Arno, stripped of his assassin gear, stumbles around drunkenly to get it back. It was lifted straight from AC4 where it made a lot more sense and was good character development (Edward wrestling with his conscience). In Unity it just made Arno seem like a homicidal drunk who killed people for his own selfish reasons and was never called out for it later.

I've been saying a long time that RTS would be the way to go if Ubi ever wanted to make a "proper" Templar game. Templars have a different approach than the assassins, they focus on strategy and long-term effects. I could see something like a game featuring two protagonists - one assassin, one Templar - whose lives we follow. The assassin would still take center stage, but there would be missions where the perspective switches to the Templar and what they're doing to foil the assassin's plans. Imagine the assassin doing their usual parkouring-fighting-killing thing, then after each major assassination you switch to a group of Templars in a war room, asking their commander: "Sir, the assassin saw through our ruse, our associate is dead. We must act quickly before his influence spreads throughout the city. What do you suggest?" Then you would get a RTS mission where you send Templar troops to defend a critical choke point, or send spies to infiltrate assassin ranks, or send interceptor agents to protect your allies from the assassins etc. I guess in practice it would be like a mix between Den Defense and Dragon Age: Inquisition's war table missions (where you have a mission and three different ways to solve it by sending either a soldier, a diplomat or a spy to take care of it). After that sequene you would see the assassin reacting to the aftermath.

JWRK
10-19-2015, 09:24 PM
I've been saying a long time that RTS would be the way to go if Ubi ever wanted to make a "proper" Templar game. Templars have a different approach than the assassins, they focus on strategy and long-term effects. I could see something like a game featuring two protagonists - one assassin, one Templar - whose lives we follow. The assassin would still take center stage, but there would be missions where the perspective switches to the Templar and what they're doing to foil the assassin's plans. Imagine the assassin doing their usual parkouring-fighting-killing thing, then after each major assassination you switch to a group of Templars in a war room, asking their commander: "Sir, the assassin saw through our ruse, our associate is dead. We must act quickly before his influence spreads throughout the city. What do you suggest?" Then you would get a RTS mission where you send Templar troops to defend a critical choke point, or send spies to infiltrate assassin ranks, or send interceptor agents to protect your allies from the assassins etc. I guess in practice it would be like a mix between Den Defense and Dragon Age: Inquisition's war table missions (where you have a mission and three different ways to solve it by sending either a soldier, a diplomat or a spy to take care of it). After that sequene you would see the assassin reacting to the aftermath.

Makes sense. When they first talked about the bleeding effect I had this notion Desmond would learn different skills from different ancestors across different genres (like he'd visit an officer and learn strategy in a RTS, a con artist and learn smooth-talking in a dialog-heavy RPG, etc.). Pipe dream of course but there you are. Surely you could do different things in this universe.

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 09:25 PM
What I didn't like was the sequence where Arno, stripped of his assassin gear, stumbles around drunkenly to get it back. It was lifted straight from AC4 where it made a lot more sense and was good character development (Edward wrestling with his conscience). In Unity it just made Arno seem like a homicidal drunk who killed people for his own selfish reasons and was never called out for it later.


That was my issue with it as well. ACBF's portrayal is admittedly nothing like actually being drunk, but I think it was meant to be mostly symbolic. If you need that extra straw of realism to grasp, I suppose it could be justified by saying that the "hallucinations" were drunken dreams he was having.


But Unity's drunker slaughter was just distasteful. I know that the lack of hand to hand combat is largely to blame (ironic, given the emphasis on it this year) but it made it hard for me to root for Arno after watching him butcher a dozen men so that he could drink an ungodly amount of wine.


I've been saying a long time that RTS would be the way to go if Ubi ever wanted to make a "proper" Templar game. Templars have a different approach than the assassins, they focus on strategy and long-term effects. I could see something like a game featuring two protagonists - one assassin, one Templar - whose lives we follow. The assassin would still take center stage, but there would be missions where the perspective switches to the Templar and what they're doing to foil the assassin's plans.


I think I remember having read that from you before, and I think it's a great idea. An RTS could be great, as long as it doesn't feel too gimmicky (again, looking at you, ACR Tower Defense). I'm actually pretty disappointed that we didn't have something like that in Rogue. That way, we'd get the more "administrative" side of Shay's time as a Templar as well as his more hands on approach as an Assassin hunter.

SixKeys
10-19-2015, 09:36 PM
I don't think the problem with Den Defense was that it was too gimmicky (let's face it, no more gimmicky than having a FPS level in ACB's machine gun mission), it was that it was done with the wrong context. It simply didn't make sense that the assassins and Templars would duke it out so openly with huge numbers on both sides and not have anyone in the city pay attention. It would have made more sense in something like AC3 where you already have armies clash on a regular basis, defending forts and whatnot. Instead of having Ezio personally oversee an army of assassins against an army of Templars, it would have made more sense for him to act as Suleiman's advisor in situations where unrest rises in the city and Suleiman has to get the situation under control.

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 09:40 PM
It would have made more sense in something like AC3 where you already have armies clash on a regular basis, defending forts and whatnot.
That's actually a pretty good point. Plus, it would have felt significantly more flushed out than Connor's mind-numbing defense at Concord.