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View Full Version : Muzzle Flashes ! I know it's been said before but...



JG301_HP
12-28-2003, 08:15 AM
Please remove them or give an opportunity to tone them down.

I have never asked anything before or made any chritical statement because i enjoy this sim 100%.

However since i'm a military man since almost 20 years back and have fired guns rangeing from 5.56 up to 40 mm (AAA) and even a Recoiless 90 mm Carl Gustaf AT weapon i KNOW the flashes arn't visible to human eyes in daylight. Period!

Also taken from some interviews:
About gun muzzle flashes on Me 109 G:
"I have specifically asked this from Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, a FiAF H75A and Bf 109 ace.
Of the shake he noted that there practically was none, and in fact you had hard time even hearing your guns firing because there is so much other noise in a fighter aircraft. This is specially interesting as his preferred ride in Bf 109's was the three cannon Bf 109 G-6/R6. Same with the muzzle flash, he dryly noted that there was none visible to the pilot, not even from the 13mm cowl guns.
For marketability reasons these effects just seem to be generally overmodelled in some flight simulators. Possibly because of the muzzle flashes in Hollywood movies, where blanks are being fired. Blank ammo does cause sizable muzzle flash, because the powder is different from the one used in live ammo, and because there practically is no bullet slowing down the exit of the hot gases."
- Pentti Kurkinen, enthusiast

Me 109 G:
"- The Messerschmitt was equipped with two 13 mm MGs in the nose, were there muzzle flames or anything else visible in the cockpit when shooting?
You see just the tracers if any. No glare, no flames. The rate of fire of the MGs was so high that you cannot see anything. The cannon ammunition comprised five types of shells each smoking in their way. There were high explosive, armour piercing, tracer and some other types."
- Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

Now i promise I wont say anything more about it!
Regards

JG301_HP
12-28-2003, 08:15 AM
Please remove them or give an opportunity to tone them down.

I have never asked anything before or made any chritical statement because i enjoy this sim 100%.

However since i'm a military man since almost 20 years back and have fired guns rangeing from 5.56 up to 40 mm (AAA) and even a Recoiless 90 mm Carl Gustaf AT weapon i KNOW the flashes arn't visible to human eyes in daylight. Period!

Also taken from some interviews:
About gun muzzle flashes on Me 109 G:
"I have specifically asked this from Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, a FiAF H75A and Bf 109 ace.
Of the shake he noted that there practically was none, and in fact you had hard time even hearing your guns firing because there is so much other noise in a fighter aircraft. This is specially interesting as his preferred ride in Bf 109's was the three cannon Bf 109 G-6/R6. Same with the muzzle flash, he dryly noted that there was none visible to the pilot, not even from the 13mm cowl guns.
For marketability reasons these effects just seem to be generally overmodelled in some flight simulators. Possibly because of the muzzle flashes in Hollywood movies, where blanks are being fired. Blank ammo does cause sizable muzzle flash, because the powder is different from the one used in live ammo, and because there practically is no bullet slowing down the exit of the hot gases."
- Pentti Kurkinen, enthusiast

Me 109 G:
"- The Messerschmitt was equipped with two 13 mm MGs in the nose, were there muzzle flames or anything else visible in the cockpit when shooting?
You see just the tracers if any. No glare, no flames. The rate of fire of the MGs was so high that you cannot see anything. The cannon ammunition comprised five types of shells each smoking in their way. There were high explosive, armour piercing, tracer and some other types."
- Ky√¬∂sti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

Now i promise I wont say anything more about it!
Regards

Triple_AA
12-28-2003, 12:10 PM
Yes. Get rid of the muzzel flash. It looks ridiculous!

Bad call on Olegs part.

tenmmike
12-28-2003, 12:32 PM
boys we have beat this horse to death ..i am 100% on your side ..i also have fired more rds then i can count including i figure somthing around 8000+ rds m-2 .50 cal...but it pretty much been stated the its not gonna be changed...ps kind funny to see me complaining about it and look at the flash on my sig!! LOL

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

FW190fan
12-28-2003, 12:56 PM
I have to agree about the muzzle flashes being a bit overdone. Perhaps the flash would be quite large at night, but during the day?

You don't need flame dampeners on your exhaust during daylight for the same reason - you can't really see the flash.

I always found it interesting that Eric Hartmann comments on how big the muzzle flashes seemed to him when he fired the guns of the 109 - while sitting still on the runway. Apparantly he hadn't noticed them at all while flying in combat.

http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-G2-33s_small.jpg

tenmmike
12-28-2003, 01:11 PM
on the hartman thing i just reread that book and that part in the book..and it stopped me for a sec when he said that..obviously the high speed they flew much would disapate any flash and addition the muzzel flash can only go uo and forward in a cowel instalation so perhaps that effected what he saw......i still stand by my obsevations and those of many others including my relitives iv asked about this who fought in ww2(infantry)..either way he did state he did not notice it while flying

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

LeadSpitter_
12-28-2003, 01:18 PM
I couldnt agree more, but its been said it is not possible and will not be done by oleg.

Which means it can be done making muzzleflashs smaller but is not practical considering where the muzzleflash effect is located in the game engine and will require a massive size patch to change so its not going to happen

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
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Fehler
12-28-2003, 01:50 PM
Not to mention that it makes some planes (262) nearly unflyable at times with "Excellent" graphics settings.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehlersig.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

italianofalco
12-28-2003, 04:00 PM
Excuse me but I think that the decision to change of not and how hard or less stuff would be is only 1c or Mr. Oleg.. (to mr Leadspitter..) Personally I fully agree that muzzle Flashes in this great sim are one of the few bad components and I don't know if it is "a massive size patch....." but would be only a right thing to clear this "Walt Disney cartoonist effect" .

Wetwilly87
12-28-2003, 06:10 PM
Well hopefully in BoB we wont see muzzle flashes in our 109's, and also hope that those MG17's in the 109's actually kill something.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"

VMF513_Wolf
12-28-2003, 10:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wetwilly87:
Well hopefully in BoB we wont see muzzle flashes in our 109's, and also hope that those MG17's in the 109's actually kill something.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


kill something??..u know what if u maybe just learned how to shot be4 post something like this..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif they do kill if u know where and how to aimhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/181203-avia_036F.jpg
VMF513-Flying Nightmares (http://www.vmf513.com/)

GvSAP_Dart
12-28-2003, 10:50 PM
I've come to realize it's not the muzzle flash size so much as it is the duration of them.

Try this out - make a track where you fire the nose cannon of a P-39.

Play it back while at the gunsight zoom.

Wow, pretty ugly, huh?

Now play it again, but at 2x and 4x speed.

Suddenly it looks a whole lot more realistic...

____________________________________
http://www.darts-page.com for more foolishness

Wetwilly87
12-29-2003, 01:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VMF513_Wolf:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wetwilly87:
Well hopefully in BoB we wont see muzzle flashes in our 109's, and also hope that those MG17's in the 109's actually kill something.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


kill something??..u know what if u maybe just learned how to shot be4 post something like this..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif they do kill if u know where and how to aimhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/181203-avia_036F.jpg
http://www.vmf513.com/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You saying I dont know how to shoot, well I do know how to shoot and ive tested the MG17 on planes, it kills but it takes alot of your ammo to do so, so please refrain from commenting, because ive been playing this game since IL-2 the demo and I know where and when to shoot at a plane, so thank you very much.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"

Edit: rewording in italics

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Mon December 29 2003 at 11:46 PM.]

VMF513_Wolf
12-29-2003, 02:22 AM
Zero content and I couldn't be bothered editing out the offensive bits.

[This message was edited by Tully__ on Mon December 29 2003 at 11:48 PM.]

JG301_HP
12-29-2003, 04:15 AM
Hey Hey Hey,
keep it polite gentlemens. I don't want to see a post i made get ugly. I perhaps don't post much but i've been around since the start of things and i don't appreciate ugly words!

Regards

VMF513_Wolf
12-29-2003, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG301_HP:
Hey Hey Hey,
keep it polite gentlemens. I don't want to see a post i made get ugly. I perhaps don't post much but i've been around since the start of things and i don't appreciate ugly words!

Regards<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


sry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/181203-avia_036F.jpg
VMF513-Flying Nightmares (http://www.vmf513.com/)

Wetwilly87
12-29-2003, 01:15 PM
Im sorry too, I just dont appriciate people telling me that I dont know how to play a game that ive been playing for years.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"

Flygflottilj16_Sulan
12-29-2003, 01:31 PM
lol...

and bump on the muzzleflash stuff

MiloMorai
12-29-2003, 02:07 PM
Could you two love birds could clean-up some of the inappropriate words you used in your love letters.

The Mods seemed to have missed them.

Wetwilly87
12-29-2003, 04:13 PM
I dont use inappropriate words, cause im mature enough not to use them.

http://www.kitreview.com/reviews/images/re2005bookreviewbg_1.jpg "The beautiful fighter of the war"

italianofalco
12-29-2003, 04:50 PM
bump to muzzleflashes.. it's an interesting subyect "play muzzleflash at 2x or 4x.." may be the first step to make or work about a sort of adjustment of them... poll

GvSAP_Dart
12-30-2003, 12:26 AM
Well, on a (real) M2 .50, the flash is there, even in daytime, but it's so brief that you really don't see it - so fast that it doesn't throw off your aim at all or obscure you.

If you take a picture, though, it's huge!

Oddly enough, they optimized all the flashes for appearance at night - though few of us actually fly night missions!

____________________________________
http://www.darts-page.com for more foolishness

JG301_HP
12-30-2003, 02:42 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Great to see that voices has been brought back too normal mates.
I know it's highly unlikely we'll ever see any remedy to this effect (problem) in this sim but perhaps if we keep the matter on the table BoB will not suffer from it ?

What do you think?!

Yes BTW if you take a picture the flash will be huge but the human eye don't "update" fast enough to see it IRL. Thats my little point http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

I've got some video fotage of WWII ac fireing and it's not visible there either. The only ac that has a visible muzzle flas on the video is the Ju87-G wich underwing cannons produce extremely large flashes, almost to the spinner in length.

Regards

Fehler
12-30-2003, 03:20 AM
What I dont understand is, if virtually everyone hates the flashes as they are represented currently, then why wont 1C remedy the situation? Is it coding?

They account for a majority of stutter problems, aiming difficulties that obviously didnt occur in real life, and general irritation from the majority of the community.

Eye candy isnt "Candy" if it tastes bad... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehlersig.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

VVS-Manuc
12-30-2003, 03:39 AM
May be there are "more important" things to do by 1C than reworking the muzzle flashes? Water....I-185...TB-3 with I-16...
May be we (and some veteran WW2 - pilots) are all wrong and Oleg himself is the only one who knows the truth about the real muzzle flash size?



This post was a sarcastic one http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2003, 08:30 AM
theres something about this i cant quite put my finger on .......

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/301203-Yak9KFlare.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2003, 08:36 AM
seriously tho ....

we know

oleg knows

we know oleg knows

oleg knows we know he knows

everyone knows



but after all this time we aint going to get a 180 on his position

its in FB because he likes it to be their ..... its peculier to his likes & he can do any damm thing he likes to this game & seeing muzzel flashes is his likes

is their a brick wall outside your place ?

go bash your head on it ..... it will do more

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2003, 08:40 AM
Fehler this has been HEAVILY discussed at this forum for over TWO YEARS now

basically you shouldnt see muzzel flashes in daytime in FB if they were true to life

they are in FB because Oleg wants them in his game

which is perfectly fair enough by me

its just that they suck



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
What I dont understand is, if virtually everyone hates the flashes as they are represented currently, then why wont 1C remedy the situation? Is it coding?

They account for a majority of stutter problems, aiming difficulties that obviously didnt occur in real life, and general irritation from the majority of the community.

Eye candy isnt "Candy" if it tastes bad... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

JG301_HP
12-30-2003, 09:38 AM
Yepp Badsight, I know.
But, if we keep this in a polite manner and as we say in Sweden :"If you spit on the stone long enough time, it will get wet".
No good translation for this that I know about http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Then perhaps we can avoid this in BoB or get an option to modify it outside "arcade" mode?!

Ofcourse it's in the game cause Oleg and the dev's (or perhaps UBI?? ) think it's beneficial for the game. Afterall, I can believe that all people ot there hwo's not hardcore simmers or experienced in weapons, think this effect rocks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

That's life mates. Sometimes "the need of the many outweighs the need of the few". But if we keep our voices up in a civiliced way we become the many.

And ofcourse, let's not forget that the chemical engridients of the powder may have changed over the years ( I can't tell, though I have chemical education touching this field ) and that must be considered.

Regards and have A Happy New Year.

[This message was edited by JG301_HP on Tue December 30 2003 at 08:47 AM.]

MiloMorai
12-30-2003, 09:46 AM
Trying to get the Fw190's forward view changed to a more realistic view went nowhere.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Why 1C/Maddox Games cannot change the graphics for the muzzle flashes is a mystery. The other mystery is why 1C/Maddox Games modelled the gunflashes as one would see them at night** in the first place.

** as said by OM.

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
theres something about this i cant quite put my finger on .......

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/301203-Yak9KFlare.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like that picture Badsight.

They should put tracks on that Yak and use it as a Howitzer http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

Huckebein_FW
12-30-2003, 03:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:
What I dont understand is, if virtually everyone hates the flashes as they are represented currently, then why wont 1C remedy the situation? Is it coding?

They account for a majority of stutter problems, aiming difficulties that obviously didnt occur in real life, and general irritation from the majority of the community.

Eye candy isnt "Candy" if it tastes bad... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/Fehlersig.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, 'couldn't agree more Fehler!
Just by removing them completely they would have a more realistic daylight gunnery.

And considering the savings in fps, especially for Mk108 equipped planes, that is almost mandatory for the next patch.

http://home.comcast.net/~bogdandone/me262_steinhoff.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-30-2003, 04:36 PM
Not possible, my ARSE.

It is *completely* possible to change what amounts to a few particle sprites...but Oleg's simply being hardheaded, and also wants to not have to keep going back to FB, when his focus is on BoB.

The latter I can understand...but he's got staff.

Changing those sprites is likely a few hours of work at most. It's not nearly as complex as any of the FM changes he's made. It's just pigheadedness, that's all.

WUAF_Badsight
12-30-2003, 04:41 PM
you mentioned FB

its been there since IL2 Sturmovik

.

its been discussed for OVER TWO YEARS


its staying because its too far down the track to suddenly do a 180 decision

he likes them in his game

& fair enuf

its just that they suck

Snoop_Baron
12-30-2003, 04:46 PM
If they don't want to get rid of them completely at least make it so that you can't see them from inside your cockpit. That way it will still look "cool" from the outside but it won't mess up your aim when flying the plane.

FbusterMk3
12-30-2003, 05:04 PM
We need two types of muzzle flash:
The big dramatic ones we have now for outside views. ('cos they look good)
Small unobtrusive flashes for cockpit view.( so we 109 drivers can see the bloody target)
Best of both worlds!

tenmmike
12-30-2003, 05:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GvSAP_Dart:
Well, on a (real) M2 .50, the flash is there, even in daytime, but it's so brief that you really don't see it - so fast that it doesn't throw off your aim at all or obscure you.

If you take a picture, though, it's huge!

Oddly enough, they optimized all the flashes for appearance at night - though few of us actually fly night missions!

____________________________________
http://www.darts-page.com for more foolishness<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.................................................w ell like i stated above iv fired a sh*t load of m-2 in my service time ..more then normal do to my unit..... what is seen by the gunner is a kinda greyish blurr at the most no flames..now at night its a whole new ball game..we gotta let this go as its not going to be fixed oleg him self has stated that the code is tremendously large ( why that is i dont know ..im no programmer) so its just not going to be delt with..unless ita suprise

http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_50cal.gif U.S INFANTRY 1984-1991

italianofalco
01-02-2004, 03:46 PM
SUMMARY: Mr. Oleg, look as many fan of this game, look their own hot involvement in it, take your final judgment about all this and make what your core suggest to you about this then .
Ps. If you don't want to dramatically change things you coud at least make this change as an option (so that everyone can change this or not) only a humile suggestion. Regards.

aGunfighter
01-03-2004, 02:07 PM
Ya know whats ironic ? ----The Hurricane on the box of F.B has small muzzle-flashes. Hehe.

01-03-2004, 04:25 PM
have u guys ever seen pictures of the il2 firing it is canons? belive me the flashes are ok

WUAF_Badsight
01-03-2004, 06:31 PM
do you know anything about WW2 aircraft guns ?

they aint "ok" if you mean realistic

MiloMorai
01-03-2004, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by I_AM_THE_DEVIL:
have u guys ever seen pictures of the il2 firing it is canons? belive me the flashes are ok<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You ever seen pictues/movies of other a/c firing their guns?

I have seen a movie of a P-51 firing its guns and the camera was VERY close, ie. just off the wing tip, and the fuselage was NOT hidden by any flash. This was on a clear blue sunny day, NOT like the Il-2 movie one sees so often that was taken on a overcast day, with hardly any sunshine.

PS. the P-51 movie was in color, NOT b/w.

BBB_Hyperion
01-05-2004, 01:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
posted 03-01-04 15:25
have u guys ever seen pictures of the il2 firing it is canons? belive me the flashes are ok
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you ever though about that a picture does not represent the frequency level that the Eye has same for movies of this time ?

Mostly the Picture shows a frequency change slightly into infrared so you have bright shinning flashes but they were not visible at this degrees to the normal observer of the scene.

Regards,
Hyperion

LeadSpitter_
01-06-2004, 01:56 AM
oleg said he wont change them if you remember the 100s of muzzleflash threds in the past and said why

http://www.geocities.com/leadspittersig/LSIG.txt
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