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ChiberianWinter
10-19-2015, 03:25 AM
From the previously established in-game lore (ac1 and ac2 specifically), the players have learned that Darwin's theory of evolution is indeed not true. How will Ubisoft reconcile their in game lore with what we see in syndicate? Certainly makes me curious and presents a sort of double edged sword, how the conspiracy aspect of earlier games causes problems for later games.

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 03:38 AM
From the previously established in-game lore (ac1 and ac2 specifically), the players have learned that Darwin's theory of evolution is indeed not true.

Where did you get that idea? The First Civilization are a product of evolution. They are not aliens or gods. They are the missing link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transitional_fossil)


How will Ubisoft reconcile their in game lore with what we see in syndicate?

The same way they always use lore, hold a pencil perpendicular to a table and as someone is looking at it, shove that person's eye into it. And "it's gone".

The Lore is not meant to be taken seriously or rather literally. It's just there as wallpaper and furniture for the historical part, to supply some McGuffin and conflict. It's not important by itself.

Locopells
10-19-2015, 10:33 AM
Darwin's theory of evolution is right, just not in relation to humans (at least not as he tells it, the First Civ might have created the first humans from apes, who knows?)...

Goxxi
10-19-2015, 11:29 AM
Well even Charles Darwin himself did not realize his theorry like something questionless.

Even scientists calculated that possibility that everything happened how darwinists claims is 0, and then 30 pages of zeros , 1.

Also the theory of evolution has more "plot holes" then any religion on the world.

Actually darwinism is more product of society , couse we live in one cruel , materialistic world which is based on that capitalistic principles of social darwinism , where they are trying to destroy a human as spiritual and cultural being and how they would justify their monstrous crimes , genocides , exploatation of people and their land they are trying to relativize question of moral and basic human nature , they are trying to portrait that human is just a more developed animal or better to say beast and then It's justified to act like beast and in metaphorical sense to eat less powerful from itself , especially those who can not fight back , concept of darwinism is actually pure concept of neoliberal capitalism and that's why is so popular and accepted so well.
We are witnesses of that every day , especially through the media where they perform very strong propaganda , they are bombing people minds with violence , pornography , some idiotic shows , they are trying to awake lowest insticts at people and practically to turn them into animals.

It's very simple , becouse other way requires rejection of that materialistic view on world , requires a struggle for freedom, equality , solidarity among the people , preservation of natural environment , one serious and deep spiritual and intelectual work on itself for one spiritual and intelectual rising of people , other words requires a higher awarness ............and of course that's against intrests of small group of global elite who sees this world and people only as source of natural resources and labour , only as tool for making of profit , so as long as this capitalistic system and materialistic view on world would be dominant the idea of darwinism and Darwin's theory will be dominant too , especially in mainstream science.

SofaJockey
10-19-2015, 01:26 PM
How will ACS handle Darwin?
Well, whether Darwin gets involved in insights of the precursor race, or not will be interesting.
I hope that Darwin is treated reasonably, as any other respected historical figure.

(and please let's have a thread on Darwin that doesn't get side-tracked by crackpot conspiracy theories)

SenseHomunculus
10-19-2015, 01:36 PM
Well even Charles Darwin himself did not realize his theorry like something questionless..

Huh?

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 01:41 PM
How will ACS handle Darwin?
Well, whether Darwin gets involved in insights of the precursor race, or not will be interesting.
I hope that Darwin is treated reasonably, as any other respected historical figure.

(and please let's have a thread on Darwin that doesn't get side-tracked by crackpot conspiracy theories)

It's weird that Darwin is more controversial in America these days than dear old Karl Marx. Most of the rest of the world have no problems with evolution.

In any case as far as lore is concerned, the basic concept is that the First Civ are the missing links between our early primitive ancestors and homo sapiens. It's never mentioned how the First Civ created humans and in any case we only have their word that they created humans. What is clear is that the First Civ are themselves beings on earth, who are a product of Natural Selection and evolution. So the basics of Darwin's ideas are still consistent in the AC world.

Stuff like DNA and Triple Helix are not part of Darwin's discoveries. Genes were discovered by Gregor Mendel and his research was not fully available for Darwin to update it. The moderl evolutionary synthesis extends, corrects and builds on Darwin's idea. The discovery of the DNA, the foundation of Animus and the ACverse is all a product of Darwin's revolution in biology. So they don't really have to go too far.

SofaJockey
10-19-2015, 01:48 PM
It's weird that Darwin is more controversial in America these days than dear old Karl Marx.

I'm quite looking forward to seeing how the game treats Karl Marx. Having studied some of his writings, I find them interesting, if dreadfully impractical. I've seen a few youtube threads where the inclusion of Karl Marx in the game is considered some heinous communist plot.

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 02:32 PM
Having studied some of his writings, I find them interesting, if dreadfully impractical.

Well the reason is Marx never wrote a lot about communism or how that system would work. He spent most of his time criticizing and analysing capitalism which is the main strength of his works.


I've seen a few youtube threads where the inclusion of Karl Marx in the game is considered some heinous communist plot.

Must be residual anti-semitism and anti-intellectualism, which is what drives American anti-communism. It's actually weird but Marx doesn't show up a lot as a fictional character. There's never been a big movie about him (and his life is interesting in that respect) and Syndicate is actually the first major fictional representation of him in mass media since...ever. I mean the closest I can think is that Monty Python sketch (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7E_8EjoxY7Q) of the philosophers football match where Marx is a substitute player.

The other Victorians, Charles D-ckens had a wonderful movie that came out two years back where Ralph Fiennes directs and stars as the writer. Darwin had that awful movie Creation. Queen Victoria appears fairly often, there's young Victoria where Emily Blunt plays her when she was still kind of pretty. You know it was Victoria's wedding with Albert that started the whole tradition of brides wearing white on wedding days, it wasn't a thing until she did it.

SenseHomunculus
10-19-2015, 03:16 PM
It's weird that Darwin is more controversial in America these days than dear old Karl Marx. Most of the rest of the world have no problems with evolution.

You can't explain stoopid. (This from an American.)

Actually, you can. Darwin = God bad, so Darwin bad. And, "Karl who??"

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 03:28 PM
Actually, you can. Darwin = God bad, so Darwin bad.

I guess. Although even, the Catholic Church has never had any beef with Darwin and the Popes have supported evolution so, I guess like witch burning, this is a mainly protestant fixation.

And even then it took off primarily in America long after the controversy died in England.


And, "Karl who??"

True. I am reminded of that line of dialogue in that movie Pickup on South Street:"I don't know anything about Communism. I just hate it, that's all."

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 03:30 PM
From the previously established in-game lore (ac1 and ac2 specifically), the players have learned that Darwin's theory of evolution is indeed not true.

Ah, but don't forget, nothing is true. I think this is especially applicable here. Science is an attempt at modelling reality- it represents mankind's best concerted effort to find answers- but even a model supported by evidence is not absolute proof of its validity.

Take the atom, for instance. From the Ancient Greeks, our model for the smallest building block of matter has changed radically.
Does that invalidate all past models? Well yeah, to a certain extent. But those models also contained enough truth in them that they have helped us form more accurate claims. Even now, our current model of the atom is not infallible. Who knows what we may discover in the future that will change it?

It is similar with evolution. The current model of evolution is not purely Darwinian- however, we still refer to Darwin frequently because his contributions to the field revolutionized the study of evolution. So, from a certain perspective (and not just from a Young Earth Creationist or Fundamentalist) Darwinian evolution is not true in our own universe- but that's just because Darwinian evolution refers to a specific older model, and we've since learned more since then.

SenseHomunculus
10-19-2015, 03:48 PM
I guess like witch burning, this is a mainly protestant fixation.

Evangelical, yes.


"I don't know anything about Communism. I just hate it, that's all."

And this is why, as much as I like Bernie Sanders, he'd be crushed in a landslide in a general election. Even people who would and do benefit from "socialist" government programs would never vote for a self-proclaimed democratic socialist, despite having no idea what that means. *sigh*

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 03:55 PM
Ah, but don't forget, nothing is true.

That's meant to be a statement regarding social structures rather than physical sciences. Bear in mind that Altair was a guy with a scientific temper.

Just because Darwin has been corrected in some essential details doesn't mean that his main ideas aren't true.

It's the same with Freud. He didn't have access to neuroscientific instruments so he did everything by talking cure. Only now you have scientists like Erich Kandel using technology to say Freud was right all along.


Science is an attempt at modelling reality- it represents mankind's best concerted effort to find answers- but even a model supported by evidence is not absolute proof of its validity.

I honestly find that an absurd statement. I mean do we say that the Laws of Thermodynamics is not a valid model even if it is supported by evidence? Evolution is no different, it's just that it arouses a set of feelings from a privileged vocal minority who presumably don't have problems with other laws supported by science. I mean it's not even all Christians, the Catholic Church, the world's largest organized religion, supports the theory of evolution and has never opposed it.


...but that's just because Darwinian evolution refers to a specific older model, and we've since learned more since then.

That's because Darwin described and wrote everything based on empirical evidence, he didn't have access to later developments in genetics and especially the DNA, which led to the Human Genome project, all of which revolutionized biology but all of which would be inconcievable without Darwin. So in no sense is Darwin's discoveries been surpassed.

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 05:04 PM
I honestly find that an absurd statement. I mean do we say that the Laws of Thermodynamics is not a valid model even if it is supported by evidence? Evolution is no different, it's just that it arouses a set of feelings from a privileged vocal minority who presumably don't have problems with other laws supported by science. I mean it's not even all Christians, the Catholic Church, the world's largest organized religion, supports the theory of evolution and has never opposed it.


You seem to have completely missed the point. I'm not saying these models are invalid at all- merely that when they have been shown to have been less than perfect, they still continue to help build a better and more accurate claim.

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 05:29 PM
You seem to have completely missed the point. I'm not saying these models are invalid at all- merely that when they have been shown to have been less than perfect, they still continue to help build a better and more accurate claim.

Oh okay...sorry then.

I-Like-Pie45
10-19-2015, 05:49 PM
darwin is sinner, he will be target punished by gods fire

SofaJockey
10-19-2015, 06:08 PM
Some days I can't tell the difference between irony and extremism.

Poe's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) applies.

LoyalACFan
10-19-2015, 08:48 PM
We're two pages deep into a thread concerning Darwin and Marx and it hasn't yet devolved into a foodfight.

Well done, Internet people. Well done.

VestigialLlama4
10-19-2015, 08:52 PM
We're two pages deep into a thread concerning Darwin and Marx and it hasn't yet devolved into a foodfight.

Well done, Internet people. Well done.

This is a game website, we get into fights over Connor and Unity, not about actual historical figures who remain controversial to this very day.

cawatrooper9
10-19-2015, 09:03 PM
This is a game website, we get into fights over Connor and Unity, not about actual historical figures who remain controversial to this very day.

Haha, truer words have never been... typed.

I-Like-Pie45
10-19-2015, 10:25 PM
We're two pages deep into a thread concerning Darwin and Marx and it hasn't yet devolved into a foodfight.

Well done, Internet people. Well done.


This is a game website, we get into fights over Connor and Unity, not about actual historical figures who remain controversial to this very day.

triggered, kachooku!
http://i800.photobucket.com/albums/yy290/diabetic-cookie-monster/Untitled_converted_zpsjf9alpmb.jpg
zikka zikka

HDinHB
10-20-2015, 02:10 AM
Some days I can't tell the difference between irony and extremism.

Poe's Law (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law) applies.

I think you mean Pie's Law.

VestigialLlama4
10-20-2015, 06:10 AM
http://soulsurfing.website/index.php/2015/10/13/scientists-have-found-that-memories-may-be-passed-down-through-generations-in-our-dna/

Interesting article about DNA storing memories.

x-Lyyr-x
10-20-2015, 08:55 AM
Even scientists calculated that possibility that everything happened how darwinists claims is 0, and then 30 pages of zeros , 1.

Also the theory of evolution has more "plot holes" then any religion on the world.



Urrgh.... I have heard that number being mentioned in atheist vs religious debates by apologists. It smells like it was pulled out of someone's ***. The chance does not matter. There is evidence that evolution happened, unlike religious miracles :)

I am with the Templars on this one. Religion is probably the most effective means of mind control, right after the pieces of eden. Controversy yeaooooo!

Goxxi
10-20-2015, 01:53 PM
Nope you are bad informed , there are no evidences that evolution happened , especially after DNA was discovered the theory of evolution falls into the water , becouse It's been discovered that DNA contains informations made from binary codes , which means no chance that they could get created from itself , spontanously.

You know amoeba , primitive organism or some developed animal can not turn into a man becouse It does not exist mechanism for something like that.

Also Darwin's theory generally was not so revolutionary and advanced how some people thinks , since somewhere in south east Africa It was one pagani tribe who worshiped the cult of gorila ( becouse gorila like big , strong and fearless animal) and they belived that man came from gorila , which is practically a pure darwinism.

Similar story is with Big Bang theory , also some pagani tribes (mostly in Central and South America) belived that some giant duck laid her giant egg and after that egg cracked from that egg came entire universe.


And when we talk about religous miracles , well there is an archeological and scientific evidences that some of them really happened but also probably we should not interpret them all literaly and probably some of them were described just in metaphorical sense.

Also one thing is institutionalized religion and some church which work by principles of some big corporation and other thing is original religion and spiritual way of life.

Also today it's a worst and biggest trap and It's most dangerous that they are trying to equalize those 2 things and to destroy a man as spiritual being and to impose their social darwinistic and materialistic view of world and to impose nihilism and hostile atheism as religion of new age.

SenseHomunculus
10-20-2015, 02:16 PM
This is going off the rails for a gaming forum... :rolleyes:

VestigialLlama4
10-20-2015, 02:27 PM
This is going off the rails for a gaming forum... :rolleyes:

Best we ignore it, that way we can pretend it's not there.

So I saw the Syndicate footage and one thing that bugged me slightly about how they are handling Darwin, so far...

Jacob Frye and Darwin don't have anything like a first scene. I mean this is Darwin after publishing On the Origins of Species, one of England's most famous names and Jacob and there's no recognition or anything.

Darwin is kind of this nice old man, which is true of his real personality, but it's like the writers don't really give that sense of awe that you are actually meeting Darwin.

cawatrooper9
10-20-2015, 02:42 PM
Nope you are bad informed , there are no evidences that evolution happened , especially after DNA was discovered the theory of evolution falls into the water , becouse It's been discovered that DNA contains informations made from binary codes , which means no chance that they could get created from itself , spontanously.

Oh boy, here we go. That's abiogenesis, friend. It has nothing to do with evolution.


You know amoeba , primitive organism or some developed animal can not turn into a man becouse It does not exist mechanism for something like that.

No, mutation is that mechanism...


Also Darwin's theory generally was not so revolutionary and advanced how some people thinks , since somewhere in south east Africa It was one pagani tribe who worshiped the cult of gorila ( becouse gorila like big , strong and fearless animal) and they belived that man came from gorila , which is practically a pure darwinism.
A stronger argument might be that theories of evolution, particularly within a species, had actually caught on before Darwin. There were even theories of transmutation of species.
What Darwin is most famous for, as I would think you'd have known, is the theory of natural selection.


And when we talk about religous miracles , well there is an archeological and scientific evidences that some of them really happened but also probably we should not interpret them all literaly and probably some of them were described just in metaphorical sense.

Also one thing is institutionalized religion and some church which work by principles of some big corporation and other thing is original religion and spiritual way of life.
I'm sorry, but when you're saying that I should not examine miracles critically but accept their value, I can't help but think that you're waving at me with one hand while pickpocketing with the other.


Also today it's a worst and biggest trap and It's most dangerous that they are trying to equalize those 2 things and to destroy a man as spiritual being and to impose their social darwinistic and materialistic view of world and to impose nihilism and hostile atheism as religion of new age.
It's a shame you see it that way. If rational thought is the only thing standing between your faith and the loss of your faith, I can't help but feel that your conviction is lacking.


Look, this is hardly the place for philosophical debate (well, maybe back during the Ezio trilogy it would've been :p) and I want you to be absolutely free to believe whatever you like. Just trying to clear up some of your misconceptions here, friend.

SenseHomunculus
10-20-2015, 02:50 PM
Best we ignore it, that way we can pretend it's not there.

So I saw the Syndicate footage and one thing that bugged me slightly about how they are handling Darwin, so far...

Jacob Frye and Darwin don't have anything like a first scene. I mean this is Darwin after publishing On the Origins of Species, one of England's most famous names and Jacob and there's no recognition or anything.

Darwin is kind of this nice old man, which is true of his real personality, but it's like the writers don't really give that sense of awe that you are actually meeting Darwin.

On your second point re: Darwin, I think that's OK. Yes, in the hindsight of scientific study, we view him in that way. But in reality, he WAS just a man. They did the same I thought with Franklin in AC3. They really humanized him which I appreciated.

VestigialLlama4
10-20-2015, 02:51 PM
A stronger argument might be that theories of evolution, particularly within a species, had actually caught on before Darwin. There were even theories of transmutation of species.

God...what a missed opportunity!!! Do you know that Jean-Baptiste Lamarck lived and worked during the French Revolution? He ran the Jardin des Plantes and worked and clashed with Georges Cuvier, the great naturalist. Think how awesome it would have been to have met Lamarck in UNITY (he was in Paris during the whole time and the Jardin des Plantes opened during the Reign of Terror) and then come to Syndicate. Lamarck isn't even mentioned in any of the disposable Paris Side Stories. It gets frustrating when ubisoft misses out on basic world building on such obvious connections.


On your second point re: Darwin, I think that's OK. Yes, in the hindsight of scientific study, we view him in that way. But in reality, he WAS just a man. They did the same I thought with Franklin in AC3. They really humanized him which I appreciated.

One thing I liked in the earlier games was that the developers had a real sense of awe for these historical figures, like they liked and respected them. I am thinking of Copernicus in ACB's PS3 missions.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ech6xkaAAMs

At 5:40 minutes he gives this cool speech which is essentially about the Renaissance.

Even Leonardo da Vinci, I mean he's Ezio's best friend but there's a sense of respect and awe that's there. In the later games, developers seem to want to shoehorn figures into the AC2 roles, so they try and make Benjamin Franklin Leonardo-like in ROGUE and now they do that for Alexander Graham Bell in Syndicate, but that kind of misses what the earlier games were about.

cawatrooper9
10-20-2015, 04:03 PM
God...what a missed opportunity!!! Do you know that Jean-Baptiste Lamarck lived and worked during the French Revolution? He ran the Jardin des Plantes and worked and clashed with Georges Cuvier, the great naturalist. Think how awesome it would have been to have met Lamarck in UNITY (he was in Paris during the whole time and the Jardin des Plantes opened during the Reign of Terror) and then come to Syndicate. Lamarck isn't even mentioned in any of the disposable Paris Side Stories. It gets frustrating when ubisoft misses out on basic world building on such obvious connections.

It would've been a great way to create a stronger link between Syndicate and Unity, which is something that I'm really worried about!