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Bull_dog_
01-01-2004, 10:50 PM
I do...too bad it came apart too fast (out of the box version)

I don't see too much whining about energy modelling and this will be my last comment on it; I don't like it at all. After some ad hoc testing I think the P-47 has the worst zoom climb in the game....the Mig 3U has one of the best although you cant go very fast or the wings fall off. P-51 is super excellent too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Does anyone know if there will be further tinkering with the FM's in the add-on?

I know I can outrun most aircraft in a Fw-190D, outclimb most in a Bf-109, out turn most everything in a Yak 3...but when I get in trouble with a heavy fighter diving is not an escape unless the opponent doesn't want to follow you down. A small difference in acceleration and top speed is usually limited by when your plane falls apart rather than weight.

I hope Oleg does more with it as it would make some of the heavier fighters a little more competitive and escapable...

I know someone will respond "get altitude and boom&Zoom"...altitude is the great equalizer just about any plane can kill another with an altitude advantage... problem is that if the zoom climb isn't modelled right you get one maybe two dives....

There are some aircraft I can dive over and over again because they return to their original altitude...some you can't. Odd thing is that light fighters seem to do better than heavy ones (exception being the mustang).

Is this how it really was? I always though light fighters like Yaks, Spitfires and Me's couldn't out perform a heavy fighter in zoom climb.

Now if the heavy fighters like the Dora, P-47 and the upcoming lightning dove like the P-40 used to dive...how many jugs would be flying on line then? More I bet.

Bull_dog_
01-01-2004, 10:50 PM
I do...too bad it came apart too fast (out of the box version)

I don't see too much whining about energy modelling and this will be my last comment on it; I don't like it at all. After some ad hoc testing I think the P-47 has the worst zoom climb in the game....the Mig 3U has one of the best although you cant go very fast or the wings fall off. P-51 is super excellent too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Does anyone know if there will be further tinkering with the FM's in the add-on?

I know I can outrun most aircraft in a Fw-190D, outclimb most in a Bf-109, out turn most everything in a Yak 3...but when I get in trouble with a heavy fighter diving is not an escape unless the opponent doesn't want to follow you down. A small difference in acceleration and top speed is usually limited by when your plane falls apart rather than weight.

I hope Oleg does more with it as it would make some of the heavier fighters a little more competitive and escapable...

I know someone will respond "get altitude and boom&Zoom"...altitude is the great equalizer just about any plane can kill another with an altitude advantage... problem is that if the zoom climb isn't modelled right you get one maybe two dives....

There are some aircraft I can dive over and over again because they return to their original altitude...some you can't. Odd thing is that light fighters seem to do better than heavy ones (exception being the mustang).

Is this how it really was? I always though light fighters like Yaks, Spitfires and Me's couldn't out perform a heavy fighter in zoom climb.

Now if the heavy fighters like the Dora, P-47 and the upcoming lightning dove like the P-40 used to dive...how many jugs would be flying on line then? More I bet.

FI-Aflak
01-01-2004, 11:28 PM
you mean if it spontaneously exploded at high speeds? Anyone else remember that?

I don't really get what you are saying . .

If you mean: Shouldn't the Jug be able to climb to nearly its initial alt after a dive->zoom climb? My answer would be yes, but I'm just a dirty american kid, so who listens to me?

ElfunkoI
01-02-2004, 12:01 AM
I think I'll jump on this bandwagon.

LEXX_Luthor
01-02-2004, 12:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you mean: Shouldn't the Jug be able to climb to nearly its initial alt after a dive-&gt;zoom climb? My answer would be yes,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends on how far you dive. Dive (safely) from 10km to sea level and see if you Zoom back up to 10km. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Heavier means better Zoom Climb:: Using computer flight simmer Logic, a 4 engine PE-8 bomber should out zoom climb a P~47, especially if the Pe-8 is carrying that famous 5000kg bomb.


Something else is going on here than just mass (or "weight" as we USA simmers call it).

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Platypus_1.JaVA
01-02-2004, 02:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
I do...too bad it came apart too fast (out of the box version)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember the puzzled reactions of the Poor 109 pilots wich I shot down after i used a trick that would let me get speeds up to 750 km/h. They thought I was cheating http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I tested it to a max of 770 km/h. (IAS) Probably, you could squeeze a little more out of it but, because of all the shaking, I didn't dare to go any further http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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p1ngu666
01-02-2004, 07:48 AM
i know the p47 seems very heavy :\
yeah it was, but that much?
its the momentum of the weight that helps

VW-IceFire
01-02-2004, 08:00 AM
Its zoom is much better in 1.21 than previously. I find you can acctually almost get back to your original altitude if you picked up sufficient speed. But its very hard to zoom if the guy sees you...

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

Bull_dog_
01-02-2004, 11:35 AM
I'll put my disclaimer right up front...I am not a physicist, but I did have a little of it in the past so I'll try to clarify my logic on my gripe...

An object in motion tends to want to stay in motion.

In a vacuum, if you drop a penny and a marble they will fall at the same rate that rate dependent on gravity. In real life, they don't fall at the same rate due to drag/friction with the atmosphere. Furthermore, the marble will achieve its terminal velocity faster (acceleration) than the penny and when impact occurs the marble will be traveling at a higher velocity. This is due primarily to a combination of weight and drag. There is a maximum terminal velocity if the objects are dropped from a high enough location to acheive it. For example, if you parachute from 12,000 ft. and from 8,000 ft you will be traveling at the same velocity when you hit the ground...you won't continue to accelerate because drag prevents it. Now if you add weight you'll hit harder or if you reduce drag by going to a smaller chute the same will occur.

Now with aircraft the P-47 is the marble and the 109 is the penny. If you roll a Jug into a dive it will accelerate faster, reach a higher terminal velocity and when you point the nose skyward it will acheive a higher altitude due to momentum before your original starting velocity is acheived....this is zoom climb. Regular climbing occurs after the affects of momentum are negated and engine power, weight and wing lift take over. In the P-38, if the dive started too high (over 20,000 ft.) where the air was less dense and thus less drag/friction the aircraft would approach the speed of sound. 109's could split S at that altitude all day long because they would not accelarate or reach a terminal speed close to the speed of sound. In addition the lightning had design flaws round its boom that created excess turbulence which would literally shake the plane apart. P-47's could have similar problems but didn't have the turbulence problem. A 109 never came close, couldn't come close to the speed of sound because weight was too low and drag too high to allow it.

Having said all of that, in a practical sense...if a Jug pilot finds a 109 or zero on this tail he can nose his plane over in a dive and immediately begin to pull away from his adversary...due to acceleration caused by weight/drag. If the pursuer follows, they will loose ground and fall behind. When a heavy aircraft pulls out of the dive, the momentum will bring him back up to some altitude less than he started at (due to drag). This altitude will be higher than the lighter plane because of a momentum advantage. A bomber, for example, is a very high drag aircraft so would not accelerate or reach as high a terminal velocity as a P-47.... Makes me wonder how good the P-61 Black Widow would have been at B&Z with its combination of weight and low drag. The mustang was a very low drag design so while it wasn't as heavy as the P-47 it could sustain its momentum for longer periods (this is modelled fairly well I think). The Fw's and 109's were of higher drag design...that is why they bleed energy in turns so quickly...probably should have less zoom climb.

My point was that energy physics are not modelled well in this game. Diving is not a means of escape for a heavier aircraft as it should be. I've read accounts of Jug pilots practicing against Spits and using the dive/zoom climb to put distance between themselves cause the spitfire could acheive the same acceleration, terminal velocity or momentum for a zoom climb....once climbing under normal engine hp/lift/weight conditions the Spit would zip right up on a jug.

The P-40 in the original game had a noticable advantage in acceleration but blew up once it went too fast so I know it can be modelled...I think it was even better than the P-47 out of the box...it has been toned down since and the P-47 just doesn't have this advantage. Oleg has modelled parts falling off planes at different speeds...did happen with some aircraft but not real prevelent during the war for whatever reason..who knows?

I see lots of folks not happy with the roll rate, which I am not happy with either but I think the bigger handicap to planes like the jug, mustang, dora, la and soon to be lightning is the lack of an accurate energy model.

I only hope that Oleg sees the same thing I do and continues to fine tune the aircraft....

I know if I have a 2000 ft. or more advantage in a P-47 I will likely come out on top...I also know that if I have a 2000 ft. advantage in alot of planes I'll come out on top....put me even or at a 2000 ft. disadvantage in a jug and I'm dead meat...not likely to escape not even from 20,000 ft.

Case in point...I encounter a Ki-84 at 18,000 ft. and he gets behind me about a kilometer away. I have a good 10 miles to get back to base and energy is close to equal so I put the jug on full throttle and about a 5 or 10 degree dive. I get shot down right in front of my base because the Ki caught me....if energy were right I would have begun to pull away from the Ki from the moment I nosed down.

Enough for now...I feel better http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

wayno7777
01-02-2004, 01:21 PM
I know that in the real world, once the jug was givin the paddle blade props almost nothing could catch them in a dive to zoom climb.Quote Robert S. Johnson in 'Thunderbolt', "But what a difference these blades made.At 8000 feet I pulled the Thunderbolt into a steep climb. Normally she'd zoom quickly and then slow down, rapidly approaching a stall. But now- the Jug soared up like she'd gone crazy....Never again did a FW 190 or a Me 109 outclimb me in the Thunderbolt." I've read the Mustang was good this way because it was so smooth. You have to watch out in the heavy ones because almost as soon as you nose them over you're already up against it.

Recon_609IAP
01-02-2004, 01:47 PM
weight plays a big factor in diving.

no doubt about it.

p47 will pick up speed faster in a dive for sure.

S!
609IAP_Recon

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ElfunkoI
01-02-2004, 02:48 PM
Only way I've every been able to dive away from anything is to dive a a 90* angle. Shoot for the ground and you will actually be able to outdive the other kites out there. Would be nice to be able to use a dive advantage with a lesser angle of dive.