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View Full Version : So, Edward was the most NATURALLY skilled in the series?



booty_fiend
10-13-2015, 10:03 PM
guy had no formal assassin training, yet was more stealthy than nearly all of his past assassins. was the best swordsman in england just from experience and had no real training there either. could freerun like a god, despite having only been a climber for a ship; he didn't climb up walls and obstacles while on the ship now did he? etc.

probably bad storytelling but the guy just came off as the most naturally skilled assassin of all-time.

BananaBlighter
10-13-2015, 10:07 PM
I said yes because he could even do stuff like eagle vision without training, and was OP at combat too. However it is important to note that Arno could parkour like a beast before any assassin training too, and let's be honest, parkour in Unity is way more OP that BF.

cawatrooper9
10-13-2015, 10:29 PM
Depends on what you mean by "naturally".

If you mean how their skills stacked up before joining the Assassins, then I'd say yes.

Altair was born into the brotherhood.
Ezio was just a rich Italian punk of a kid- inexplicable parkour skills, but not much else.
Connor had some survivalist training (would probably be second most skilled).
Arno was just a rich French punk- inexplicable parkour skills, and an awful swordsman.
Shay was a bit of a criminal before the Assassins, if I remember correctly.

Edward, though- not only was "every finger a fishhook" from his sailing days, but he was also a skilled fighter (presumably from combat at sea). On top of that, he was an experienced sailor, able to man sea craft.
He received very little training from the Assassins throughout the game, though he still was able to fight similar to their style. He was even able to perform various assassinations on dummies while undercover as a Templar, despite not having much of a way of know what these assassinations were supposed to look like (so yeah, maybe that was bad storytelling).

Keep in mind, Edward was older than most Assassins by the time he met the brotherhood.

If by natural, you truly mean natural and not with aid from external sources (such as training by sailors)... well, that would be significantly harder to qualify. However, as Ori pointed out, he did seem to have somewhat of a handle on his powers before being made aware of them.

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 03:30 AM
Edward Kenway is so naturally skilled that he gets killed by a couple of random thugs in his early 40s. Really impressive there.

booty_fiend
10-14-2015, 03:37 AM
Edward Kenway is so naturally skilled that he gets killed by a couple of random thugs in his early 40s. Really impressive there.
he had one of the lamest deaths in the entire series, yes.

but he lived the grandest live of all the main characters.

still doesn't change the fact that he came off as the most NATURALLY skilled assassin off the bat

HDinHB
10-14-2015, 04:45 AM
Edward Kenway is so naturally skilled that he gets killed by a couple of random thugs in his early 40s. Really impressive there.

:nonchalance: Actually, I was thinking at the other end of his life, when he was 18 and shovelling sheep **** in South West England getting beat up by three drunks outside a bar. Noble? Undoubtedly. But "naturally skilled?" Not demonstrated there. We didn't see it in the game, but no doubt his skills came from hard work and experience as a privateer and pirate.

The term "natural" could imply a genetic disposition, so one of the Assassins with Assassin ancestry would be a logical choice.

The winner of the genetic lottery was Desmond. He had "minimal training" as an Assassin before he was kidnapped, and none after, so all of his skills came without formal training. Is he disqualified because his skills were awakened by the bleeding affect?

We'll never sort out how much of Alta´r's skills were natural and how much a result of his living in an Assassin training facility from birth.

Ezio had natural free running skills and the gift of eagle vision without training, but got Assassin training from prostitutes, thieves, and Mario.

Connor trained with Achilles for the better part of a year. Faulkner said he was a natural sailor, but no one said he was a natural Assassin.

Arno had no formal Assassin training, but mad free running skills and only a couple months of fight training from Bellec while in the cell at the Bastille. He even learned to sit on a bench all by himself. Of course, if he was a "natural" Assassin, he probably would have killed Bellec about the 1000th time he called him piss-pot. (Maybe that's why...)

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 05:31 AM
he had one of the lamest deaths in the entire series, yes.

but he lived the grandest live of all the main characters.

Whoa...stop right there. It's one thing to claim that Edward was the most "naturally skilled assassin" or whatever the hell that means but in terms of "the grandest life", I mean that's not true. For one thing Edward's appeal is precisely that his life wasn't all that grand. Altair, Ezio, Connor, even Adewale, had grand lives, their actions were important in not just saving the world but in building something which lasted.

In the case of Edward, at the end of Black Flag, all his friends are gone, his wife died, sick and abandoned, he's leaving the only life he knew. Then Forsaken comes along and he turns out to have been a fairly bad father to that little girl we saw at the end of Black Flag, becoming some kind of chauvinist Lord and then thanks to his breathtaking stupidity he compromises the life and safety of his family.

If we take Black Flag into account, Edward's life is poignant and interest, if we take Forsaken then he's basically this big idiot.


The term "natural" could imply a genetic disposition, so one of the Assassins with Assassin ancestry would be a logical choice.

Well all the Assassins have "the Sense" right, so they are all naturally gifted.


The winner of the genetic lottery was Desmond. He had "minimal training" as an Assassin before he was kidnapped, and none after, so all of his skills came without formal training. Is he disqualified because his skills were awakened by the bleeding affect?

Well he's pretty good at stealth considering he managed to be off-grid and hid from the Assassins and Templars for so long, working as a bartender in New York at that. Hiding in plain sight and all.


Connor trained with Achilles for the better part of a year. Faulkner said he was a natural sailor, but no one said he was a natural Assassin.

Well since we actually see Connor as a child and teenager we can assess him for natural ability the way we can't assess Edward, Altair, Ezio and others. Before he joined Achilles, Connor was skilled enough in arms to fight a group of grown men, capable of hunting wild animals, could tree-run off the forest with ease and was a quick study of being a naval captain. So I'd say he's the most naturally gifted in that he had most of his skills before signing up as a sailor and a hitman.

booty_fiend
10-14-2015, 05:32 AM
:nonchalance: Actually, I was thinking at the other end of his life, when he was 18 and shovelling sheep **** in South West England getting beat up by three drunks outside a bar. Noble? Undoubtedly. But "naturally skilled?" Not demonstrated there. We didn't see it in the game, but no doubt his skills came from hard work and experience as a privateer and pirate.

The term "natural" could imply a genetic disposition, so one of the Assassins with Assassin ancestry would be a logical choice.

The winner of the genetic lottery was Desmond. He had "minimal training" as an Assassin before he was kidnapped, and none after, so all of his skills came without formal training. Is he disqualified because his skills were awakened by the bleeding affect?

We'll never sort out how much of Alta´r's skills were natural and how much a result of his living in an Assassin training facility from birth.

Ezio had natural free running skills and the gift of eagle vision without training, but got Assassin training from prostitutes, thieves, and Mario.

Connor trained with Achilles for the better part of a year. Faulkner said he was a natural sailor, but no one said he was a natural Assassin.

Arno had no formal Assassin training, but mad free running skills and only a couple months of fight training from Bellec while in the cell at the Bastille. He even learned to sit on a bench all by himself. Of course, if he was a "natural" Assassin, he probably would have killed Bellec about the 1000th time he called him piss-pot. (Maybe that's why...)
by "naturally skilled", i'm talking about how receptive they are to skill development and progression. you can't gauge a person's skill if they haven't received any sort of training.

edward had no real medium of developing his skills until he started privateering. after that, in only a few years, he was a master assassin-tier (since all we have to go by is the gameplay) and a pirate on par with blackbeard.

desmond is definitely disqualified. quite literally anyone can use the bleeding effect as a medium for obtaining skills like he did. that's precisely what the animi training program is about.

ezio pretty much reached altair-edward level in a decade or more, i'd say, when he gets his beard. he became a master assassin to me when he matured and stopped his quest for revenge.

altair is a wild card. he arguably had the highest concentration of first civi genetics (extremely receptive to the apple; possibly even an extended lifespan) and as such could have had a higher predisposition for greatness. i think him and edward both mastered eagle vision on their own as kids. but we couldn't see how receptive he was to progress sadly.

connor became good, and was a natural sailor, but he was never altair-ezio-edward good, imo. (that's just me, though) he peaked earlier than them, whereas they kept growing. maybe it was just his gorilla-like execution. i dunno'. in his late teens he did seem skilled in combat with native american tools, likely having been trained by his native american brothers.

arno isn't even special, from a genetic point of view (not an ancestor of desmond; just a random guy with eagle vision, like adewale). he was pretty much a normal assassin in the french brotherhood just playing his part. he's also arguably the worst combatant.

haytham seemed to have peaked early as a templar, despite being very naturally skilled, according to forsaken. he was quite receptive to his training (beast swordsman).


Whoa...stop right there. It's one thing to claim that Edward was the most "naturally skilled assassin" or whatever the hell that means but in terms of "the grandest life", I mean that's not true. For one thing Edward's appeal is precisely that his life wasn't all that grand. Altair, Ezio, Connor, even Adewale, had grand lives, their actions were important in not just saving the world but in building something which lasted.

In the case of Edward, at the end of Black Flag, all his friends are gone, his wife died, sick and abandoned, he's leaving the only life he knew. Then Forsaken comes along and he turns out to have been a fairly bad father to that little girl we saw at the end of Black Flag, becoming some kind of chauvinist Lord and then thanks to his breathtaking stupidity he compromises the life and safety of his family.
firstly, i'm just asking a question and stating my opinions and what i know. i'm not claiming anything (don't see how you're confused on what 'naturally' means either).

you're right, though. i got caught up in the pirate's life for a minute. :p

dxsxhxcx
10-14-2015, 12:41 PM
Edward Kenway is so naturally skilled that he gets killed by a couple of random thugs in his early 40s. Really impressive there.

You're only a one man army in the games because Ubisoft isn't capable of balancing the combat difficulty (or don't want to)... also, let's not forget that we are inside an emulation, controlling the protagonist's avatar, we aren't watching a movie, so what we do there (combat-wise at least) may not accurately reflect what may have happened during the protagonist's life in some occasions.

I really doubt that in a real situation the guards would just stay in line waiting to be killed like they do in the games.

ze_topazio
10-14-2015, 01:15 PM
Shay was, he pwned an entire Brotherhood of Assassins by himself, and he was, apparently, a slacker when it came to training.

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 01:56 PM
You're only a one man army in the games because Ubisoft isn't capable of balancing the combat difficulty (or don't want to)... also, let's not forget that we are inside an emulation, controlling the protagonist's avatar, we aren't watching a movie, so what we do there (combat-wise at least) may not accurately reflect what may have happened during the protagonist's life in some occasions.

I really doubt that in a real situation the guards would just stay in line waiting to be killed like they do in the games.

Well the logic is quite simply that the person we get to play is really the best of the best. That's why our memories are Assassins and not Random Mook 1 and 2.

EmptyCrustacean
10-14-2015, 02:06 PM
Edward Kenway is so naturally skilled that he gets killed by a couple of random thugs in his early 40s. Really impressive there.

I know, I love it. :D I don't like Edward, he's a sociopath so I'm glad he died in an undignified way.

As for his 'natural skills' - he and Arno and are the only characters in the games where their abilities before becoming an Assassin make no sense, Arno even more so. Arno was killing people without a second thought! .

m4r-k7
10-14-2015, 02:21 PM
Whilst Edward is my favorite protagonist, there is no way to say who is the most natural assassin as it all depends on the game design!

For example, Altair is considered the most legendary assassin but in AC 1 he was a slow free runner and a slow fighter. When compared to Connor and his fighting style of taking 100 guys at a time, Altair looks crap.

The reason Edward has such good skills is that Ubisoft kept the AC 3 style of fighting and fast free running. These types of questions are impossible to answer lol

terroAssassin
10-14-2015, 02:57 PM
ever since AC3 we haven't really focused on the early life of protagonists. Arno got his little bit for when shay killed his father but other than that??? Nothing
Edward was way more skilled than he had the right to be. He was sort of like Blackbeard putting on a performance as an assassin

poptartz20
10-14-2015, 03:15 PM
well.. I would think partly that he has a "natural ability" Just because since he was a boy he was raised on a farm getting into fights.. and then has been on a boat since he was 18 or 19? When we meet him in the series he is already what...in his 20s? So making him pretty agile at this point doing God knows what on the ship. So naturally he's able to move around like he is.

Journey93
10-14-2015, 03:45 PM
Its just bad storytelling. I mean I can buy that he is a skilled fighter (he was a privateer) but him being able to be this stealthy and know how the hidden blade works (all the techniques etc.) is just lazy writing.

They probably just didn't want to give up all the classic AC stuff so they still included it since the beginning even though it makes zero sense

dxsxhxcx
10-14-2015, 04:48 PM
Well the logic is quite simply that the person we get to play is really the best of the best. That's why our memories are Assassins and not Random Mook 1 and 2.

I'm aware that the protagonists we control are above average fighters, but we can't take everything we do literally, most of it are just possible because this is a video game and it needs to be fluid for gameplay purposes, no human as skilled as he/she may be should be able to take down an army of guards with little to no effort like we do, that's only possible because the developers design it to be that way, Edward didn't have a lame death in his book, he was just a victim of the human limitations the games don't use against us...

Mr.Black24
10-14-2015, 05:08 PM
When you mean "natural ability", you mean skill and ability before joining the Brotherhood? If this is so, then Edward and Connor would cut it very close. Edward was skilled in swordplay, hunting, sailor, parkour, and was a privateer turned pirate. Connor was a skilled warrior, hunter, tracker, tree climber, and parkour. Their skill set was pretty diverse compared to the other characters.

I kind of would say Altair is the highest though as he was born into the Brotherhood, as his "natural ability" was pretty much Assassin training since his early childhood. I mean he is the living incarnation of the Creed itself. Desmond had Assassin training when he grew up and retained a good portion of it, hence why he was good at hiding himself from his father and Abstergo for quite sometime before he was captured.

I think a clearer definition would be nice.

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 05:13 PM
Its just bad storytelling. I mean I can buy that he is a skilled fighter (he was a privateer) but him being able to be this stealthy and know how the hidden blade works (all the techniques etc.) is just lazy writing.

They probably just didn't want to give up all the classic AC stuff so they still included it since the beginning even though it makes zero sense

You are right and yeah it's not too clearly explained. Darby McDevitt himself said in interviews that he didn't think too much about it, saying that he didn't think the Assassins skills were that hard to acquire.

The other argument is that the style of fighting unique to Assassins (parkour, climbing, freerunning) gave them a competitive edge during the Crusades and the Renaisance when their opponents were Knights or Mercenaries carrying big clunky armor and heavy weapons, but by the time of the 1700s, there would have been a bridging of the gaps and so ordinary military training and privateering would equip soldiers up to parity. You can see that in the fact that Templars like Julien du Casse hunted quite a few Assassins with that collection of Hidden Blades he shows. Likewise you have Haytham himself in a later era despite never being an Assassin has the parkour and freerunning skills and all he did was serve in the Coldstream regiment of the British Army, serving in Flanders with Braddock. If the Assassins were so specially skilled you wouldn't be having Templars like Du Casse and Haytham matching them in ability and performance.

So I don't think Edward mimicking the Assassin skills and abilities is so out of reach. Edward is himself highly reacting and a mimic by nature ("a jackdaw...but if you ask him he'd claim to be an eagle") so I think he would be the kind of guy who is a quick study, who adapts and modifies his abilities. There are some people who can do that and yes that is a natural talent.


I'm aware that the protagonists we control are above average fighters, but we can't take everything we do literally, most of it are just possible because this is a video game and it needs to be fluid for gameplay purposes, no human as skilled as he/she may be should be able to take down an army of guards with little to no effort like we do, that's only possible because the developers design it to be that way, Edward didn't have a lame death in his book, he was just a victim of the human limitations the games don't use against us...

Look, the same can be said about Batman, yet you wouldn't accept it if Batman in his early 40s gets attacked and whacked by random mooks either, okay maybe in some kind of deconstructive parody you would accept it, but not in a heroic story and AC are fundamentally heroic stories anyway. This isn't GTA V where Johnny Klebitz can be stamped to death and p-ssed over essentially. The fact is these are fictional characters and the circumstances and manner in which they die has to be satisfying on some level, especially for a prominent character.

In Forsaken, written before the game was released, he comes across as Bruce Wayne's Dad kind of guy, not someone especially important, hardly having a character in that books, and apparently being dark-haired. And you know you accepted his death because it's Haytham's story. Then Black Flag comes and he becomes this special character by himself and it's unsatisfying at the end that they decided that Forsaken was canon (the first novelization to which they granted favor everything before was retconned). It's a poor finish and the Edward of that books, this chauvinist pig also jars with the story of the main game. Much as I hate Rogue, Adewale dying in his 60s and 70s fighting against two other player characters (Haytham and Shay) was a proper and fitting end, much more so than what Edward got.

ACZanius
10-14-2015, 09:18 PM
it's not even that, here story and gameplay conflict each other, they just gave him all that so players would feel more "free" Edward had no real training of arts of Assassins, bothered me a little, made no sense how does he posses all those moves, and that little "training" session Darby wrote which was better than nothing still doesn't justify it.


Edit: Just saw post above someone else said same, nice!

terroAssassin
10-14-2015, 09:50 PM
Assassin training can mean a number of things their are ranks from novice to master
Edward clearly went beyond novice and he had eagle vision and the ability to use it without knowing what it was

cawatrooper9
10-14-2015, 10:38 PM
Regarding Edward's death- for one, it's most detailed in the books, which are technically canon but still seem to be a bit of a separate entity from the series (especially the first few graphic novels, whew!)
Second, this was an Edward created before we as an audience really knew the character- and, perhaps, before many at Ubisoft really knew him as well.

What I mean is that the creative process between creating Edward "The Legend" in ACBF and his rather disappointing death in Forsaken seems to actually be two different processes, in which I assume there was little overlap.

VestigialLlama4
10-15-2015, 03:57 AM
Regarding Edward's death- for one, it's most detailed in the books, which are technically canon but still seem to be a bit of a separate entity from the series (especially the first few graphic novels, whew!)
Second, this was an Edward created before we as an audience really knew the character- and, perhaps, before many at Ubisoft really knew him as well.

What I mean is that the creative process between creating Edward "The Legend" in ACBF and his rather disappointing death in Forsaken seems to actually be two different processes, in which I assume there was little overlap.

My feeling is that when they made Black Flag they didn't even plan on the protagonist to be a Kenway. But they made him one so as to not be so wide a break from the earlier games and likewise to provide fewer explanations as to why we have to follow his life. Edward Kenway might well have been Ken Edwards the Pirate at some point.

When Black Flag finally did finish, I was hoping they would retcon Forsaken into non-canon the way they did all earlier Bowden books or come up with some smart explanation that makes sense, like Edward faking his death or abandoned his family or that Haytham's journal was redacted or some sort. I especially didn't like the handling of Jenny Scott in that book, like it jars with the ending and epilogue of BLACK FLAG in a big way.

And then ROGUE officially made it canon, in Otso Berg's video of Haytham which retold all those incidents, typical.

ACZanius
10-15-2015, 04:13 AM
My feeling is that when they made Black Flag they didn't even plan on the protagonist to be a Kenway. But they made him one so as to not be so wide a break from the earlier games and likewise to provide fewer explanations as to why we have to follow his life. Edward Kenway might well have been Ken Edwards the Pirate at some point.

When Black Flag finally did finish, I was hoping they would retcon Forsaken into non-canon the way they did all earlier Bowden books or come up with some smart explanation that makes sense, like Edward faking his death or abandoned his family or that Haytham's journal was redacted or some sort. I especially didn't like the handling of Jenny Scott in that book, like it jars with the ending and epilogue of BLACK FLAG in a big way.

And then ROGUE officially made it canon, in Otso Berg's video of Haytham which retold all those incidents, typical.


I agree, why did that guy had to make it all "connected" so stupid, like how Edward encountered Templars earlier in his life, makes no sense, honestly, i wish this GAME RIGHT NOW, London one would be 2nd game of Edward, that would really amazing, i would cry, i honestly expected that since he was very popular, i don' hate Rogue but man, game causes so many "holes" just makes your head boggled, me and few others i saw that posted were right from the beginning that Shay did not even exist when AC3 was finished, it's like nothing, he was created out of the blue, that's why it's not story problem it's literally writing problem, or now both i guess, i'm glad that it was finally revealed in recent interview Loomer did with Richard Fareese, writer of Rogue that that is indeed a FACT, people who have been talking aaa Shay is in hiding during Revolution or Achilles didn't mentioned him because of great pain or whatever, was never the case, i wonder if original plan was to have Haytham as main protagonist, makes sense to me, i mean i heard people saying "he's not a good sailor" but in AC3 where you chase Church he says "why don't you give the wheel to someone more experienced aka him)

booty_fiend
10-15-2015, 07:11 AM
god forsaken should have been retconned.

i'll admit: edward's death in that book is lame af and he went out like a fodder. still my fave, though, but come on, ubi. retcon that ****.

pirate1802
10-15-2015, 08:21 AM
I don't like Edward, he's a sociopath .

He isn't, really. There's a difference between being a scumbag and being an icicle incapable of feeling things like guilt, remorse etcetera. Which he does, actually. If he was an actual sociopath he'd have remained what he was and never change.

But that aside he's a complete bastard and I love him for that exact reason.

booty_fiend
10-15-2015, 10:03 AM
If he was an actual sociopath he'd have remained what he was and never change.
lol exactly. calling edward a sociopath is almost like confessing to having never played the game

king-hailz
10-15-2015, 01:23 PM
None of them are naturally skilled, it just depends on their experience. So no, he's not the most naturally skilled.

cawatrooper9
10-15-2015, 04:37 PM
My feeling is that when they made Black Flag they didn't even plan on the protagonist to be a Kenway. But they made him one so as to not be so wide a break from the earlier games and likewise to provide fewer explanations as to why we have to follow his life. Edward Kenway might well have been Ken Edwards the Pirate at some point.


Very interesting point, and I agree that it might have some merit to it. It would certainly explain how one of the few connections to ACIII is a short (perhaps shoehorned in?) cinematic with Haytham in the end.

Regardless, I do like how Edward is the protagonist, a few plot holes aside.

STEAMPUNKOMEGA
12-12-2018, 02:46 AM
I know, I love it. :D I don't like Edward, he's a sociopath so I'm glad he died in an undignified way.

As for his 'natural skills' - he and Arno and are the only characters in the games where their abilities before becoming an Assassin make no sense, Arno even more so. Arno was killing people without a second thought! .

edward lost friends through out his whole life, saying that he deserved that death that is like disrespecting ezio or altiar, he fought as hard as he could. he learned how to do the stuff he did since he was a privateer it has been said, so all the stuff he does in game is just an average day for him so your wrong. Its not like every other assassin was pure either. Ezio wanted revenge, altiar just didnt follow rules, what did edward do... he did what people did during that era. Think before you post this crap dude

L_Huntington78
02-04-2019, 06:43 PM
To make a long story short, he wasn't officially trained as an Assassin. He simply aligned with them for a simple purpose - to work against the Templars' corruption. His allegiance was in question due to the fact he fought off the Assassins himself. They didn't realize he was basically spying on the Templars for one reason or another, and they had some measure of prejudice and distrust working against him because of that. It was after all that Mary Read let him in on the secret, but he was no true assassin himself. An honorary one, at best.