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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:48 PM
Hope these links work, if not I gotta figure out a way to put them up on the web.

These came up a while back on a Warbirds board (AGW) when the design of the 190 cockpit for WB III was discussed (thanks to Gabbys, Deacon and Flinvr for digging up the pics)

Note the sighting line and the plane's obvious "nose-down" attitude in flight. According to the RAF test of the captured 190 A-3 it was 5‚? down (as marked in the schematics). The report also states that the gunsight view was "better than that of the Spitfire". The entire report is in "FW 190 in Combat" by Alfred Price, along with comparative trials the Brits did against various Spit models (V and IX, IIRC) plus early Mustangs and P-38s.


Here are the pics, hope they work:


http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251910


http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251774

http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251758



Sascha

1st ROF The Netherlands
http://www.1strof.com/lapwin/rof/pilots/sascha.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 09:48 PM
Hope these links work, if not I gotta figure out a way to put them up on the web.

These came up a while back on a Warbirds board (AGW) when the design of the 190 cockpit for WB III was discussed (thanks to Gabbys, Deacon and Flinvr for digging up the pics)

Note the sighting line and the plane's obvious "nose-down" attitude in flight. According to the RAF test of the captured 190 A-3 it was 5‚? down (as marked in the schematics). The report also states that the gunsight view was "better than that of the Spitfire". The entire report is in "FW 190 in Combat" by Alfred Price, along with comparative trials the Brits did against various Spit models (V and IX, IIRC) plus early Mustangs and P-38s.


Here are the pics, hope they work:


http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251910


http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251774

http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251758



Sascha

1st ROF The Netherlands
http://www.1strof.com/lapwin/rof/pilots/sascha.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:09 PM
Fascinating how they mke those drawings.

"degustibus non disputandum"

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:27 PM
Another FW190 thread?

What's wrong with using this one?

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvsld

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XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 10:32 PM
Should've added a disclaimer:


"This thread is not intended as a flamewar-starter. I simply wanted to provide interested parties with those schematics (which I haven't seen on this board before). Due to the size of the 190 "monster-thread" I started a new one. I am neither "W√ľrgerwhiner" nor "Fanboi" either, just an IL-2:FB player who happens to like the planes of Willy Messerschmitt and Kurt Tank".



Sascha



1st ROF The Netherlands
http://www.1strof.com/lapwin/rof/pilots/sascha.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:00 PM
I have seen this picture many times but this is the first time I spot something new.. (the one with red arrows)

The plane is actually moving straight..

But if you look at the area below Revi call it dashboard or what, it isnt straight.. it is actually pointing slantly downwards..

Nice to still find new things from old stuff /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:28 PM
That last pic, in the view where they show 5 degrees in red... the drawing angle gives 5 degrees and 35 minutes (just over 5.5 degrees). However the angle is from the point on the outside windshield where the direct forward view is and it should not originate there. It should originate from a point lower on the windscreen because the pilots downward view through the revi would refract up through the armor glass below the line through the middle of the revi. In essence, the drawing of that angle puts the pilots eye at the front of the windshield which is false.

If you draw a line from the pilots eye through the bottom of the revi glass (or where it should be, hard to tell on the drawing) to the armor glass (and I'm ignoring refraction in the revi but then there's 2 pieces tilted oppositly there IIRC which would tend to cancel each other) and then copy the refraction shown for the center view line but at that lower location and ignore that there would be slightly more refraction in the case of the lower view angle being more acute which would put the exit a tiny bit higher... and then draw your line over the nose and see the angle.

But could you see the nose of the FW190 through the revi at all? Eric Brown wrote a nice bit but I don't remember anything there that noted the view through the revi or even mentioned the word revi or gunsight at all. I believe that the full revi should be viewable from outside and be clear from inside, but what that means about angles ... can be measured from the pilots eye to the revi alone, forget the rest forward and just unblock the revi. That's as uncomplicated as it ever needs to get.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:36 PM
- That last pic, in the view where they show 5 degrees
- in red... the drawing angle gives 5 degrees and 35
- minutes (just over 5.5 degrees). However the angle
- is from the point on the outside windshield where
- the direct forward view is and it should not
- originate there. It should originate from a point
- lower on the windscreen because the pilots downward
- view through the revi would refract up through the
- armor glass below the line through the middle of the
- revi. In essence, the drawing of that angle puts
- the pilots eye at the front of the windshield which
- is false.


Hi:

this angle takes into consideration the refraction of the thick armor glass. look closelly and you will se how the lines goes angled again and up to the eyes, simulating the refractiion effect.

<img src=http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_falco.jpg>

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:38 PM
lock it man lock it snoopy


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:41 PM
this pilot is not aiming, that is why his head is higer and as a result of it he can look alittle more better

http://agw.warbirdsiii.com/bbs/attachment.php?s=&postid=251774

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-17-2003, 11:57 PM
Personally I like the pilot in the first schematic who suffers from Gigantism. *looks up* bump! ow! *plane hits turbulence/pothole* ow!

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:55 AM
Nothing new about those drawing. They have been posted here many times.


They are from the set of 1/48 scale drawings, drawn using OFFICIAL Focke-Wulf AgbH documents, by A.L. Bentley.




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

The_Blue_Devil
06-18-2003, 02:04 AM
EURO_Snoopy wrote:
- Another FW190 thread?
-
- What's wrong with using this one?
-
- <a
- href="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-
- topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvsld"
- target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/messa
- ge_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvsl
- d</a>
-
-
- <a href="http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm"
- target=_blank><fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community
- FAQ</a>
- <fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

Lock it Snoopy..You Lock every other FW thread that Oleg himself hasn't written in..cough cough. Seriously though..give up the Ghost gents..the FW sight is fine. Who needs a big sight when firing from .10
<center>----------------------------------------------------------------------------</center>
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Message Edited on 06/17/0309:06PM by The_Blue_Devil

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:20 AM
Picture number two should be revealing to a few here.

It shows the obvious nose down design of the 190 from the pilots POV.

Further, it shows the pilot is placed higher in the cockpit than in IL-2/FB, or as Oleg claims.

I wonder why so many here want to deny the facts?



--------------------------------------

"Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

Mark Twain


Message Edited on 06/17/0309:22PM by James_Gang

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 02:25 AM
Well from the first post it is nothing but a dog's breakfast. Have you cleaned out the comments by the pinocchios yet?


EURO_Snoopy wrote:
- Another FW190 thread?
-
- What's wrong with using this one?
-
- ..............




"I never saw the Me109 with the black heart again. I mention the Me109 with the black heart and "200" written on the tail."
Me109G-14 of Erich Hartmann

http://www.yeowell19.freeserve.co.uk/hartmanncs_1.jpg

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:44 AM
xanty wrote:
-- That last pic, in the view where they show 5 degrees
-- in red... the drawing angle gives 5 degrees and 35
-- minutes (just over 5.5 degrees). However the angle
-- is from the point on the outside windshield where
-- the direct forward view is and it should not
-- originate there. It should originate from a point
-- lower on the windscreen because the pilots downward
-- view through the revi would refract up through the
-- armor glass below the line through the middle of the
-- revi. In essence, the drawing of that angle puts
-- the pilots eye at the front of the windshield which
-- is false.
-
-
- Hi:
-
- this angle takes into consideration the refraction
- of the thick armor glass. look closelly and you will
- se how the lines goes angled again and up to the
- eyes, simulating the refractiion effect.
-

I see one line from the eye only, the line looking straight through the center of the revi.

A line from the eye through the bottom edge of the revi glass would strike the armor glass at a lower point than the line through the center shown. It would then refract to a lower point on the front of the armor glass than the line shown. From there, the downward angle must not be drawn directly over the nose but instead should be parallel to the line from the eye through the bottom of the revi to the inside of the armor glass.

The drawing shows the origin of the angle as at the front of the armor glass and that is wrong for determining what the pilot can see. It is something drawn on schematics but not checked closely in the real world. It is poor engineering and I suspect not of FW origin, that line over the nose and angle... however it may have been put there as an afterthought.

The angle of the view must originate at the pilots eye to be true or even be seen at all, not the windshield front. Light does not work the way it is drawn. The way it is drawn, the pilot would see below center how?


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 06:55 AM
James_Gang wrote:
- Picture number two should be revealing to a few
- here.
-
- It shows the obvious nose down design of the 190
- from the pilots POV.
-
- Further, it shows the pilot is placed higher in the
- cockpit than in IL-2/FB, or as Oleg claims.
-
- I wonder why so many here want to deny the facts?
-
-
-
---------------------------------------
-
- "Loyalty to the country always, loyalty to the
- government when it deserves it."
-
- Mark Twain
-
-
- Message Edited on 06/17/03 09:22PM by
- James_Gang


How the nose is pointing should matter little as long as it is not blocking the sight, since ==you can't see lower than the bottom of the sight when aiming==. So forget the nose, that old song has got nowhere and will continue to only stall the whole issue. We have seen that with refraction the whole revi glass circle is visible from outside so the angle of view while aiming is the angle of the glass from the pilots eye from aiming position.

This NEVER needed to be an FM discussion at all. The view forward is shifted and slightly distorted by the armor glass so what Eric Brown saw from inside is not the same reality as outside. Understand? The view is affected by the glass so the plane is not flying the way it looks from inside. You are barking up not only the wrong tree, but not even a tree at all.


Neal

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 08:19 AM
Anyone.....well almost anyone with the LEAST little bit of understanding of aerodynamics can see from that shot of the 190 in flight that.

The relationship between the chord line of the horizontal stabilizer and the chord line of the wing, that the plane was DESIGNED to have a slight nose down attitude in LEVEL FLIGHT. Just as was noted by Allied pilots when they saw 190's in flight and just as was noted by ALLIED test pilots that flew the captured 190's.

Also obvious is the slight slope down on the nose from the windscreen to the front armor cowl ring.

Couple that with the FACT that the 190's nose is actually shorter than almost ANY V12 powered planes nose. And the pilots head position relative to the glareshield and gunsite is quite different from what you see in IL2's 190.

Its amazing the extent some folks go to while in a complete state of denial.

Oh and ponder this little quote

...."The FW190 pilot had hit me with a high-angle deflection shot that I had discounted as impossible"..

-R.A. "Bob" Hoover from his autobiography "Forever Flying"

I'd guess the 190 pilot that got Ol' Hoov wasnt having too hard a time seeing over the nose of his Focke-Wulf.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 10:48 AM
James_Gang wrote:
- I wonder why so many here want to deny the facts?

Those guys don't want their butts beeing kicked by 190s doing proper deflection/lead shots. They want us to sneak up and spit lead into their pure six, where they are least vulnerable.


<hr>

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<img src=http://mitglied.lycos.de/eldur190d9/bilder/willey110.jpg border=0 alt="Hier geht's zur I/JG78"> (http://www.jg78.de)

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<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Seit &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("March 20, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*-24));document.write(count);</script> Tagen<sup>*</sup> gibts Il-2 Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
BTW: In &lt;script>var eventdate=new Date("June 21, 2003 00:00:00 GMT");d=new Date();count=Math.floor((eventdate.getTime()-d.getTime())/1000);count=Math.floor(count/(60*60*24));document.write(count);</script> Tag(en) gibt's das n√¬§chste Development Update von Oleg Maddox, wenn alles schiefl√¬§uft /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 12:18 PM
EURO_Snoopy wrote:
- Another FW190 thread?
-
- What's wrong with using this one?
-
- <a
- href="http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_view-
- topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvsld"
- target=_blank>http://forums.ubi.com/messages/messa
- ge_view-topic.asp?name=Olegmaddoxreadyroom&id=zvsl
- d</a>
-
-
- <a href="http://mudmovers.com/sturmovik_101/FAQ.htm"
- target=_blank><fontsize=2>Unofficial IL-2 Community
- FAQ</a>
- <fontsize=2>Hunter82's Tech Pages (http://mudmovers.com/tech/tech_pages.htm)

Stop to fly your Hurri, La and yak and start to fly maybe you'll stop to close many FW 190 post

II/JG69_Gunter Commandant de l'escadrille "MARSEILLE"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:33 PM
Dam it, and dam it again with you, second pictures lines of vision is wrong the first one is right, and i fly fw190s aswell as well as allies planes and axis, just get over it dam it, oleg is right , dont u dam undertend, the pilot in the second picture, he isnt aiming aiming so he is over the gunsight level, the gun sight in fws is close to the base of copit, not as the other countrys planes, please undertend it, and the lines of the second plane is wrong, u are forgetting the bar of the botom of the copit, please just realize it ur self


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 01:56 PM
Aztec seems you havent been reading the important threads..

There isnt any bar in the bottom of the cockpit. It is the thing that holds the armored glass. And due refraction you cannot even see the bar when aiming in real FW190 cockpit.

As it was pointed out in Flugwerk mail I got. Plus the Revie is modelled lower than it was in real FW190 this too pointed out in flugwerk mail.

You can even check out the Olegs picture of this even in it there is hardly any bar visible. And this picture is taken from upward angle.

You could start reading the threads so you wouldnt make a fool out of yourself.

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 05:16 PM
... you guys will never stop this, i see you in 3 years, problem with ppl is that ones they think they are right thats enough for them and they dont have an open mind, (i did think ones that the copit view was wrong)

"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 05:17 PM
Here it is the new copit for the FW190 whinners


http://www.angelfire.com/empire/the-aztek-eagles/fw190copitfix.jpg


"Never forget the past so we dont make the same mistakes in the future"

XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 05:48 PM
Fanboy allert !
you should ask Oleg to do a new brain for you, the one you use at this time is badly undermodelled...so far.

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XyZspineZyX
06-18-2003, 07:55 PM
bump