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Locopells
10-11-2015, 04:52 PM
This got discussed last year as I recall, and a recent conversation brought it back to mind, so I thought I'd poll the matter, just to gauge the interest.

Ever since ACIII and it's tree-climbing/bow and arrow mechanics, people have been talking about the potential for a Robin Hood game using a lot of the same ideas. Whether as part of AC universe, or not, has been a dividing factor (bear in mind that this is the same period as ACI, when the Assassin's have yet to leave Masyaf), but if you look at what is probably the best RH game out of the few that have been done (the 2002 Spellbound game, Robin Hood: The Legend of Sherwood), you can see how well it would work, within an AC style game.

So, thoughts?

Assassin_M
10-11-2015, 05:02 PM
Dang, yes. Man, I remember getting the demo off a magazine CD when I was 10 and it had the level where I had to rescue Will Scarlet from a castle prison. I remember doing that level so many ways, so many times and discovering new strategies to get into that darn castle. I remember I could use Little John as a ladder to climb up the walls, or I could use Friar Tuck with an ability I don't remember, or I could roam around a bit and run into a village with a boy who could get me in. I remember it was Maid Marien's ability to eves drop that made me get the full game because after getting inside the castle, I overheard a conversation that made me want to do the next mission, but because it was the demo, I couldn't. This game and commandos mission where my favorite strategy games ever. I would love an AC game with these mechanics.

I remember there was an I-phone AC scheduled to come out with AC III, I think it was called Utopia. That looked like it could'v been something similar to this.

Hans684
10-11-2015, 05:11 PM
We have our Robin Hood as well.

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/assassinscreed/images/7/79/William_of_Cassingham.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/410?cb=20140823013731
http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/assassinscreed/images/e/e1/Willikin.png/revision/latest?cb=20140822012414

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/William_of_Cassingham

"Your barons are no better than the King if they take aid from the French."
― William of Cassingham justifying his allegiance to John.

William of Cassingham (unknown 1257), later known as Willikin of the Weald, was an English Master Assassin and expert archer who fought for King John during the First Barons' War, as opposed to the barons supported by Robert Fitzwalter and the English Brotherhood.

Rallying a guerrilla force against the English barons and their ally, Prince Louis VIII of France, William favored John's authority to that of the baronial rule, despite objecting to his despotic approach; as a supporter of John's son, Henry III, William saw this avenue as the lesser of two evils.

RobertMcSassin
10-11-2015, 05:13 PM
Very much yes to that...

Tie-ing Robin Hood and his Merry Band(tm) in to the AC Universe would be a very cool thing, but even if it was a standalone thing using all the AC mechanics...*Hull, I'd buy it... :D ...

Just so long as it was an excellent, long and involved story with much side-questage, collecting and storming of King John's Castles...Ooooh...With Brotherhood's mechanics of Herne the Hunter sending his agents off to all parts of England, Wales and Scotland to conquer it in the name of Albion!...*Cough*...Sorry...Robin of Sherwood affected me at a young-ish age... :D ...

Seriously, get the story right; give me all the AC mechanics and messing about and I'm totally there...

*Holds up money to the screen*...Go on!!...Take it Ubi-Devs!!... :D ...



EDIT:...Ser Hans!...That's pretty awesome, right there...Never saw all them though, not collecting cards or having iOS stuff... :D ...

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 05:15 PM
I don't think I'd like an AC game with Robin Hood (since Robin didn't exist), but a standalone game certainly.

It might be worth it to do a game entirely around folklore in open world, that way you don't have to worry too much about historical accuracy and the folklore is pretty interesting. You can even add other figures from English folklore from that time. But that might take it into Witcher territory, much like that moronic attempt to Dante's Infero as God of War.

The only problem is that Robin Hood has seen a decline in influence. It used to be that every decade had its own Robin Hood. You had Errol Flynn's iconic original, then Sean Connery in ROBIN AND MARIAN (a really beautiful movie). You even had a Disney cartoon with Robin Hood as a Fox (seems legit). After that about the only decent Robin Hood movie was Men in Tights which spoofed that truly awful Kevin Costner movie. Than Ridley Scott decided that Russell Crowe, Mr. Serious was the right guy to play Robin Hood. And games are inevitably inspired by cinematic representations.

Locopells
10-11-2015, 05:15 PM
Dang, yes. Man, I remember getting the demo off a magazine CD when I was 10 and it had the level where I had to rescue Will Scarlet from a castle prison. I remember doing that level so many ways, so many times and discovering new strategies to get into that darn castle. I remember I could use Little John as a ladder to climb up the walls, or I could use Friar Tuck with an ability I don't remember, or I could roam around a bit and run into a village with a boy who could get me in. I remember it was Maid Marien's ability to eves drop that made me get the full game because after getting inside the castle, I overheard a conversation that made me want to do the next mission, but because it was the demo, I couldn't. This game and commandos mission where my favorite strategy games ever. I would love an AC game with these mechanics.

OK, that's so scarily close to my story, I'm freaked.,..


-snip-

Heck, I'd totally forgotten about that entry in Memories, you're absolutely right!

ze_topazio
10-11-2015, 05:19 PM
Would be lovely, but my dream is an open world Zorro game.

Hans684
10-11-2015, 05:21 PM
Heck, I'd totally forgotten about that entry in Memories, you're absolutely right!

I've always wanted a game staring him, so I try not to forget.

RobertMcSassin
10-11-2015, 05:22 PM
It used to be that every decade had its own Robin Hood. You had Errol Flynn's iconic original, then Sean Connery in ROBIN AND MARIAN (a really beautiful movie). You even had a Disney cartoon with Robin Hood as a Fox (seems legit). After that about the only decent Robin Hood movie was Men in Tights which spoofed that truly awful Kevin Costner movie. Than Ridley Scott decided that Russell Crowe, Mr. Serious was the right guy to play Robin Hood. And games are inevitably inspired by cinematic representations.

It'd have to be more like the Robin of Sherwood tv series of the 80s...(Not that horrible one of recent times...Although the last five minutes of Season 1 were properly amazing, and much of Season 2 was actually really good...)...Though not perfect by any means, I admit, it had a very well done and at times very dark story through it...Plus, they killed off Robin at one point...So those clamouring for main characters to die could be happy... :D ...

But then we'd get another Robin with pretty hair to come along and avenge him...Yes...

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 05:23 PM
Would be lovely, but my dream is an open world Zorro game.

Wouldn't it be basically Batman in the Wild West? Oh my God, I talked myself into it...sign me up. Arkham Asylum meets Red Dead Redemption.

I actually loved the 90s Zorro movie with Antonio Banderas. It's not remembered well but as a kid I really did like that a lot. Black hat, mask, cap, horse and kickass duels everywhere.

But better than Zorro would be...open world Don Quixote game.

RobertMcSassin
10-11-2015, 05:25 PM
But better than Zorro would be...open world Don Quixote game.

Would tilting at windmills be a mini-game or a challenge?...

And would Nik Kershaw do the music?...

I'd buy either if they looked good enough...

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 05:31 PM
Would tilting at windmills be a mini-game or a challenge?...

Well in the books, Don Quixote is not all that bad a knight. He actually wins more fights than he loses.

But yeah, it probably doesn't lend well to a game.

Locopells
10-11-2015, 05:34 PM
-snip-

Yep, Season 2 was the best, but they screwed it up after that, so no surprise the Jonas Armstrong left after 3 (they toyed with passing the Hood title onto a half-brother, but it never took).

king-hailz
10-11-2015, 05:36 PM
I want this as a stand alone game, plus i love the way it was described on your post on my thread!

RobertMcSassin
10-11-2015, 05:41 PM
Yep, Season 2 was the best, but they screwed it up after that, so no surprise the Jonas Armstrong left after 3 (they toyed with passing the Hood title onto a half-brother, but it never took).

Indeed...Because killing Lady Marian off is always the best idea in the world...Even the ever polite Richard Armitage complained loudly all around...

The whole "We are Robin Hood" thing was just as much fun as "Remember Byron" was for Babylon 5...Oy...*Fac-e-palm*...

I had forgotten about the half-brother...



Well in the books, Don Quixote is not all that bad a knight. He actually wins more fights than he loses.

But yeah, it probably doesn't lend well to a game.

Actually, I haven't read Don Quixote...The windmill thing is just the most famous bit...and possibly from Nik Kershaw lyrics...

All five Musketeers novels, yes...Don Quixote, no...



Sorry Locopells, this has moved from the game a bit...I'm still up for buying it though... :D ...

dxsxhxcx
10-11-2015, 05:47 PM
I think this character (and any other character such as this) would be better explored in a standalone game without any relation with AC (story-wise)...

A nice feature would be Carriage Assaults, where we study the carriages' routes that are carrying the money and plan an ambush in a similar fashion as the Den Defense worked in ACR, but instead of just standing there shooting at the guards, we would be in the middle of the action (similar to Syndicate's gang fights) once we were done placing the traps.

ze_topazio
10-11-2015, 06:00 PM
Wouldn't it be basically Batman in the Wild West? Oh my God, I talked myself into it...sign me up. Arkham Asylum meets Red Dead Redemption.

I actually loved the 90s Zorro movie with Antonio Banderas. It's not remembered well but as a kid I really did like that a lot. Black hat, mask, cap, horse and kickass duels everywhere.

But better than Zorro would be...open world Don Quixote game.

Batman was inspired by Zorro, lol

I love that movie, too bad the sequel sucks.

Don Quixote could be cool.


Oh yeah, a Three Musketeers game would be awesome too, actually Ubisoft should do it, they already have a fully built map of Paris in their hands, they would only have to do some minor changes.

MT4K
10-11-2015, 06:06 PM
I love the idea of a robin hood and zorro game :D.

I voted for it to be connected to ac just because i like to think ubisoft could pull it off, but ultimately i wouldn't mind it being standalone and would probably prefer it as such to avoid possible complications to the ac verse.

VestigialLlama4
10-11-2015, 06:11 PM
Batman was inspired by Zorro, lol

Oh I know that very well.


Don Quixote could be cool.

I think the plot of the books, Don Quixote travelling across Spain would actually lend itself well to an open world.


Oh yeah, a Three Musketeers game would be awesome too, actually Ubisoft should do it, they already have a fully built map of Paris in their hands, they would only have to do some minor changes.

Well it starts in the Pre-Louis XIV Versailles era and in Vicomte de Bragelonne (aka The Man in the Iron mask) you have the end of that adventure. But yeah the Paris map should have the same structure as Unity I would think but it would be a lot less pretty and much dirtier.

HDinHB
10-11-2015, 07:14 PM
Would be lovely, but my dream is an open world Zorro game.

Absolutely, both Robin Hood and Zorro were Assassins, but I would settle for non-Assassin games.

Robin Hood's story took place at the same time as Altar's, so that would be cool. And since most of the story takes place in and around a forest and everyone speaks with an English accent, most of Ubi's work is already done. They do need to work on the archery mechanic. In Skyrim, I would switch from 3rd to 1st person view for aiming. It looked amazing and I swear I could feel the bowstring being drawn back. I also look forward to the fletching mini-game.

I want to play a character that is a part-time Assassin, like Giovanni Auditore. Aveline didn't really scratch that itch, but Zorro/Don Diego de la Vega might. Don Diego doesn't really have a day job, but he at least has a day life. Rural Los Angeles had few buildings, let alone tall buildings, and is mostly desert, so they would have to be creative. There is also some kind of copyright/trademark dispute (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/thr-esq/judge-revives-zorro-rights-fight-770477) that is affecting Quentin Tarantino's upcoming Django/Zorro crossover movie, so Ubi might have to go with a Zorro-like character. Perhaps he could leave the Assassin symbol instead of a Z.

SixKeys
10-11-2015, 07:19 PM
Wasn't there a BBC Robin Hood mini-series a few years back? It's a story that keeps coming back despite the occasional bad adaptation.

I can definitely see a RH game with AC's mechanics. Tree-running alone would be perfect for getting around Sherwood Forest. And they already have the bow & arrow mechanic. I'd prefer a stand-alone, not an AC title (for reasons of historicity), but Ubi would probably never do two different games with such similar mechanics. Then again, Shadow of Mordor was Warner Bros. and it basically ripped half of its animations and gameplay from AC, so why the hell not?

m4r-k7
10-11-2015, 07:40 PM
The way these games are coming out so frequently, I expect that one of the games will center around an archer protagonist. The bow is the coolest ranged weapon in AC history IMO. I would love an archer protagonist as it would switch up combat quite dramatically and I think stealth would be much more prominent in a game like that. They have the awesome tree running as well, it would be awesome. One of the next 10 AC games has to involve an archer protagonist right? :rolleyes:

dread_stone
10-11-2015, 07:50 PM
No thanks. I'm tired of characters with British/English roots, and this guy would be the fifth (after Haytham, Edward, Jacob and Evie).

Seriously, some originality in nationality would be nice.

RobertMcSassin
10-11-2015, 08:45 PM
Wasn't there a BBC Robin Hood mini-series a few years back? It's a story that keeps coming back despite the occasional bad adaptation.



There was, indeed, a BBC adaption...Ran for three seasons of thirteen episodes...Tried to be an all-ages Saturday Night Family Viewing(tm)...Which works well for some things, like Doctor Who...Merlin for the most part...However...They tried to play Robin Hood as a Crusade-induced-PTSD affected wannabe pacifist for most of the first season, (From what I remember it was Marian that was the more proactive/kick-*** one for the first half of the season, with her undercover persona...) which pretty much killed it for me, and the only time it was any good for that year was the final five or ten minutes of the last episode where he finally got the eye of the tiger and took out half an army...That was very cool...

The second season gave him more grit and ooomf...Which gave me hope for the remainder...But the third season back-pedalled into pantomime and then it was done...Total waste of an effort...

AnExplodingDodo
10-11-2015, 09:15 PM
As someone who lives in Nottingham, I can fully endorse this. I practically give personal history tours of the city, so anything with historical Nottingham would be a thumbs up from me :D So far there hasn't been any adaptions that have been faithful to how Nottingham looked back then. Anything you see on TV is your typical medieval setting. Nottingham is built on a huge cliff of sandstone with an entire underground network of caves going back to the iron age i believe (could make for interesting vaults?) The castle isn't here any more..well...a Georgian mansion is...but not quite the same. There's plaques all over the place about Hood. A modern day play adaption is currently in the theatre here, and is actually very original. You can still see the divide between the two halves of the city that dates back to the saxon period. All of the medieval streets are gone pretty much, but excellent photographic records exist, and would make an amazing city to explore, simply because there's so many hidden places for stealth ability. Sherwood is still here, though only a third of what it once was. The Major Oak where he is said to have dwelled is still here too, though it's basically on walking sticks :P

Thinking about the possibilities though; if you follow the film with Russel Crowe (which is based off of facts and is quite possible), he fights alongside King Richard the Lionheart in the crusades. Obviously at this point he would be a templar, but eventually he realises that King Richard's warmongering has gone too far and goes against him. He goes back to England and takes up residence in Nottingham (at this time and English stronghold). He could take down corrupt aristocracy and dignitaries and spare their wealth amongst the oppressed. I actually think this'd make a pretty cool game. Also yes...the merry men as the brotherhood :D

GunnerGalactico
10-11-2015, 10:04 PM
I would much rather have a Robin Hood game as a standalone title. I'm also not entirely against the idea of having fictional characters in an AC game, we did have RH in AC: Memories afterall.

Black_Widow9
10-12-2015, 12:02 AM
As a standalone yes!

Why would you not want to play a Robin Hood or Zorro game?

Locopells
10-12-2015, 12:17 AM
Well, you know who to talk too, Widow!

JWRK
10-12-2015, 12:19 AM
In Ivanohe Robin Hood teams up with the hero to attack Templars so...

I say bring it on, we left the Middle Ages too soon.

Black_Widow9
10-12-2015, 12:26 AM
Well, you know who to talk too, Widow!
Who me? :p
http://33.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lisy6tCyK01qew57p.gif

LoyalACFan
10-12-2015, 12:28 AM
I don't support this idea, simply because it was my idea first :p Seriously, I'm a game design student and this has been my pet project for like four years. I have scripts, design docs, proof-of-concept whiteboxes, the whole shebang. Don't go trodding on my territory before I can cash in on it, lolz.

ze_topazio
10-12-2015, 12:41 AM
I'm glad to see you have not given up on your dream of making a Robin Hood game LoyalACFan.

LoyalACFan
10-12-2015, 12:45 AM
I'm glad to see you have not given up on your dream of making a Robin Hood game LoyalACFan.

Thanks! Well, I'm fumbling through making a 3D platformer solo at the moment so we'll see if I haven't given up that dream in the next twelve hours :p I'm good at modeling/environmental art but his is kinda my first real solo coding experience. Gotta get dem portfolio pieces m8 ;)

Locopells
10-12-2015, 11:17 AM
Oh dear, hope I haven't dumped on your project! Maybe you should get Ubi to hire you...

MT4K
10-12-2015, 11:34 AM
Oh dear, hope I haven't dumped on your project! Maybe you should get Ubi to hire you...

I imagine their meeting would go something like this -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H27rfr59RiE

VestigialLlama4
10-12-2015, 11:35 AM
Robin Hood is public domain, which might be another reason why major game companies don't want to do the story because as an IP the whole folklore can't really be protected by copyright the way Altair, Ezio, Connor, AC or even Nathan Drake, Prince of Persia can be protected. Also might be why we don't see classic novels done in games either.


I imagine their meeting would go something like this -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H27rfr59RiE

That's kind of what happened to PD and 1666.

Sushiglutton
10-12-2015, 01:21 PM
Absolutely: Yes, as a seperate game!

The climbable wilderness from AC3 is way too great to kill. However I would drastically change the bow-mechanic. RH needs full free-aim and some sort of slow-mo mechanic that emphasizes his excellence as a bow-man (like Dead-Eye, Mark and Execute, or like in Shadow of Mordor, something like that).

LieutenantRex
10-12-2015, 01:57 PM
I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think this would work. It just seems too good an idea on paper to be executed effectively. Once you have the environment and story, you have to add in accurate AI mechanics, like guards stopping their patrol and retrieving the corpses of their dead comrades instead of just looking at them for a few seconds and moving on, and unique detection systems that wouldn't be too flawed to actually be implemented, and accurate period hairstyles for all, and an interesting enough cast that isn't the same white male group with one female character from every other video game out there since, well, Robin Hood-era isn't the most diverse place ever.

You would have to add in animals and their own special coding, and then cities, which I suppose could be small due to the time, but they'd probably feel half-assed; also, I don't feel as if this game would sell very well because it'd just be another predictable midieval game that selects the thief/rogue class for you. I feel as if it would need to be a stealth only game, which narrows the niche into an abstruse nebula, since only a few would wish to play a game set in the Middle Ages. Plus, the cover art would probably look very cheesy.

cawatrooper9
10-12-2015, 02:57 PM
I could see this as very AC:IV inspired- a protagonist who is one of the "Merry Men" first, and eventually comes into contact with and accepts the Creed.

Also, I used to hate the idea of going back to the Middle Ages, but I'm ready again. Any time period what isn't between 1700 and 1899 would for for me at this point, really.

VestigialLlama4
10-12-2015, 03:19 PM
I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think this would work. It just seems too good an idea on paper to be executed effectively. Once you have the environment and story, you have to add in accurate AI mechanics, like guards stopping their patrol and retrieving the corpses of their dead comrades instead of just looking at them for a few seconds and moving on, and unique detection systems that wouldn't be too flawed to actually be implemented, and accurate period hairstyles for all, and an interesting enough cast that isn't the same white male group with one female character from every other video game out there since, well, Robin Hood-era isn't the most diverse place ever.

Well it terms of race no, but you can include ethnic and religious diversity. Like say Jews, Gypsies and Irishmen among the people who help the Merry Men. This was a time in England when Jews were persecuted.

Farlander1991
10-12-2015, 05:11 PM
I don't support this idea, simply because it was my idea first :p

Well, as a game design student, you should also know that doesn't matter :p

LoyalACFan
10-12-2015, 05:31 PM
Well, as a game design student, you should also know that doesn't matter :p

Sad but true, that's why I'm playing fast and loose with the Robin Hood legend in the script so it won't be a catastrophic blow to my concept if someone beats me to it. I can always change some names and be all good, so no, you haven't screwed me over Loco ;) Gameplay-wise, though, IMO I have a pretty cool core mechanic I cooked up that I'm going to keep a lid on. Suffice it to say it isn't 100% dependent on the Robin Hood mythos ;)

*mysteriously backs out of room*

Farlander1991
10-12-2015, 05:41 PM
Sad but true, that's why I'm playing fast and loose with the Robin Hood legend in the script so it won't be a catastrophic blow to my concept if someone beats me to it.

As I said, it doesn't matter. Seriously. There's no such thing as 'beating' somebody. Like, look at Rocket League, one of the latest crazes. Soccer with cars! Crazy, right? Except it existed for like 25 years if not more, in many iterations, the earliest I know of is this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybli2FfpKGw

And whatever you have of your concept now, even though you've spent 4 years on it, like 75% of it will be different by the time it becomes a finished product anyway (unless you have more than design, script and a prototype?)

Ideas don't matter. What matters is that at the end you have an engaging, coherent, enjoyable game that people will consider great. You don't have to be first, and who knows, maybe somebody thought of the same idea as you at the same time as you did, this happens all the time, and it's ok.

Because ideas don't matter.

cawatrooper9
10-12-2015, 06:57 PM
Sad but true, that's why I'm playing fast and loose with the Robin Hood legend in the script so it won't be a catastrophic blow to my concept if someone beats me to it. I can always change some names and be all good, so no, you haven't screwed me over Loco ;) Gameplay-wise, though, IMO I have a pretty cool core mechanic I cooked up that I'm going to keep a lid on. Suffice it to say it isn't 100% dependent on the Robin Hood mythos ;)

*mysteriously backs out of room*

Exactly, I think it would be far more interesting to have a game in which comparisons can be drawn to Robin Hood, but not have everything be blatant. Think AC1's style of history, rather than ACIII.

VestigialLlama4
10-12-2015, 07:06 PM
Exactly, I think it would be far more interesting to have a game in which comparisons can be drawn to Robin Hood, but not have everything be blatant. Think AC1's style of history, rather than ACIII.

AC1 was pretty blatant.

cawatrooper9
10-12-2015, 07:08 PM
AC1 was pretty blatant.

Very few of the targets were even actual historical people...

VestigialLlama4
10-12-2015, 07:50 PM
Very few of the targets were even actual historical people...

That's not the only measure. The background of the Crusades, the details of how the Asasiyun run were a lot closer and far more specific than other stories of the Assassins. Definitely more so than Alamut, the novel that inspired AC.The fact is you can't say that AC vaguely alludes to the historical Assassins the way you propose you can have a Robin Hood game that feels like but doesn't allude to it directly. AC1 directly alludes to the Asasiyun (one of the few adaptations that uses the actual name and never calls them Hashashin) of history and myth. That is to say the counterculture myth of the Assassins, which Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about.

In the case of Robin Hood, he's a folkloric character so stories about his adventures tend to be vague and anachronistic, drawing from some 800 years of history between 700-1300s. The popular version is that Robin Hood existed in the time of the First Barons War, the reign of King John (a fairly weak King), the background of the signing of the Magna Carta (as in Ridley Scott's incredibly stupid movie). But if you read Ivanhoe by Walter Scott you have the hero being a Saxon nobleman fighting against the Normans, a conflict that had been finished some 200 years before the stories finished. Later Robin Hood stories make him out to be some kind of leader of peasant rebellions which is kind of later in time. Richard Lester's ROBIN AND MARIAN featured a peasant rebellion that gets crushed at the end (It's a 60s movie and that was a time of debunking heroism), and of course for some reason movies like that Kevin Costner one has Richard Lionheart appearing at the end (played by Sean Connery again) even if that guy hated England, spoke barely four words of English, spent all his time in France and once planned to auction London to raise cash to fight wars.

It's weird but Mel Brooks' Robin Hood spook Men in Tights is about as historically accurate and anachronistic as anything else.

MT4K
10-12-2015, 07:54 PM
I think the most realistic depiction of Robin Hood is Disney's ;)

cawatrooper9
10-12-2015, 08:05 PM
That's not the only measure. The background of the Crusades, the details of how the Asasiyun run were a lot closer and far more specific than other stories of the Assassins. Definitely more so than Alamut, the novel that inspired AC.The fact is you can't say that AC vaguely alludes to the historical Assassins the way you propose you can have a Robin Hood game that feels like but doesn't allude to it directly. AC1 directly alludes to the Asasiyun (one of the few adaptations that uses the actual name and never calls them Hashashin) of history and myth. That is to say the counterculture myth of the Assassins, which Friedrich Nietzsche wrote about.



le sigh...
Must you feel the need to be argumentative on every point?
I can't believe that I'm actually having to debate that AC3 included far more specific historical references than AC1... :p

Fair enough, much of AC1 is indeed inspired from Alamut, but much of it is still a rather liberal adaptation. What I mean is that AC1 acts much less like a historical tourism board and instead creates an environment suited specifically to tell the story that the devs want. That doesn't make it better or worse than any other game- I like both models rather equally- but it does seem to comply with what we are discussing in regards to creating an environment in which the game would be able to tell a Robin Hood story without being too stuck on the details of the folklore.

VestigialLlama4
10-12-2015, 08:49 PM
le sigh...
Must you feel the need to be argumentative on every point?
I can't believe that I'm actually having to debate that AC3 included far more specific historical references than AC1... :p

I am sorry I don't mean to be argumentative. It's just a reflex. People make the mistake to think that just because AC1 has fewer prominent historical events than AC2 and AC3 (or even Black Flag), that it's absolutely made up and has as much relation to the Crusades as Braveheart does to Scottish history. They bring it up to justify or whitewash Unity's unforgivable piece-of-s--t against which I have mounted my own mini-crusade.


Fair enough, much of AC1 is indeed inspired from Alamut, but much of it is still a rather liberal adaptation.

It's not an adaptation, what I meant was that it was an improvement in some ways. Alamut is still governed by a number of misconceptions about the Assassins, the whole hashish smoking thing which a lot of historians think is false (if actually kind of cool if you think about it). Likewise the novel is set in Persia (as the title Alamut, an Iranian fortress, implies) whereas the game goes to their fortress in Syria, Masyaf. AC1 is more accurate to the historical assasins than Alamut, the main exception is the "creed". Historically the Asasiyun probably didn't have this badass creed, that actually came from legends around them (its rumored to be the founder Hassan-I-Sabah's last words) and initially it was used by their enemies (other Shias and Sunnis) to paint them as heretics manipulated by infidel leaders. Much later in the 19th Century, Friedrich Nietzsche, in classic Nietzsche style reclaimed the Assassin motto and stated that they were kind of bada-s and that led to the avant-garde getting in on the action (Alamut and William S Burroughs).

So the game's Assassins are closer to Nietzsche's reinterpretation than anything.


What I mean is that AC1 acts much less like a historical tourism board and instead creates an environment suited specifically to tell the story that the devs want. That doesn't make it better or worse than any other game- I like both models rather equally- but it does seem to comply with what we are discussing in regards to creating an environment in which the game would be able to tell a Robin Hood story without being too stuck on the details of the folklore.

Well to a certain extent, AC1 does have historical tourism (recreating the Ummayad Mosque, the Dome of the Rock), and it's less stuck to history only because the information of that time isn't as extensive as for later eras. Within that, they definitely did commit to be as accurate as they could reasonably be. They didn't do wholesale distortion to the extent of Unity because they didn't like the period. In any case, you are right in essence. The truth is any franchise at the outset and opening is much looser and broader than later entries. The first Star Wars movie, the first Hobbit and HP books, the first James Bond, don't necessarily have a lot of the best known elements when they are initially concieved. So AC1 is less rigid and less formulaic than later entries in a number of areas.

In the case of Robin Hood, my feeling is that it's a broader and freer concept, you don't have to be historically accurate or handicapped to any era. It's folklore and Robin Hood didn't really exist, so there you can play lose with the concept.

LoyalACFan
10-12-2015, 09:55 PM
As I said, it doesn't matter. Seriously. There's no such thing as 'beating' somebody. Like, look at Rocket League, one of the latest crazes. Soccer with cars! Crazy, right? Except it existed for like 25 years if not more, in many iterations, the earliest I know of is this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybli2FfpKGw

And whatever you have of your concept now, even though you've spent 4 years on it, like 75% of it will be different by the time it becomes a finished product anyway (unless you have more than design, script and a prototype?)

Ideas don't matter. What matters is that at the end you have an engaging, coherent, enjoyable game that people will consider great. You don't have to be first, and who knows, maybe somebody thought of the same idea as you at the same time as you did, this happens all the time, and it's ok.

Because ideas don't matter.

I was talking about the setting/story rather than the mechanics. There's certainly plenty of room on the market for two different series starring tree-climbing archers, and a good core mechanic can be recycled to Kingdom Come, but if both of those games are about the same characters in the same legend... Eh. I just doubt I could get my Robin Hood game greenlit if Ubisoft (or whoever) does a Robin Hood series first. That's why I say I'm not adhering strictly to the canon of the legend (such as it is; there is no single concrete Robin Hood story) so that it won't be a death blow to the script if somebody else gets there first; I can just change some names and places (probably transitioning into a fantasy setting) and still be golden. My mechanics and characters are the vital things I want to keep; they fit extremely well with the Robin Hood stories, but if someone else makes a RH game before me and my game would always be the "other" RH game, I could sacrifice the setting without much grief.

HDinHB
10-13-2015, 12:10 AM
I was talking about the setting/story rather than the mechanics. There's certainly plenty of room on the market for two different series starring tree-climbing archers, and a good core mechanic can be recycled to Kingdom Come, but if both of those games are about the same characters in the same legend... Eh. I just doubt I could get my Robin Hood game greenlit if Ubisoft (or whoever) does a Robin Hood series first. That's why I say I'm not adhering strictly to the canon of the legend (such as it is; there is no single concrete Robin Hood story) so that it won't be a death blow to the script if somebody else gets there first; I can just change some names and places (probably transitioning into a fantasy setting) and still be golden. My mechanics and characters are the vital things I want to keep; they fit extremely well with the Robin Hood stories, but if someone else makes a RH game before me and my game would always be the "other" RH game, I could sacrifice the setting without much grief.

But maybe the other RH game would be the "other" RH game.

(There's a new moon today)

Locopells
10-13-2015, 10:58 AM
I know I'm in the minority here, but I don't think this would work. It just seems too good an idea on paper to be executed effectively. Once you have the environment and story, you have to add in accurate AI mechanics, like guards stopping their patrol and retrieving the corpses of their dead comrades instead of just looking at them for a few seconds and moving on.

That has been done (Hitman: Blood Money, it was actually a good way to get weapons past checkpoints, lol), so should be entirely possible.


I think the most realistic depiction of Robin Hood is Disney's ;)

I've always wondered what the heck happened there...

sebg1994
10-13-2015, 06:04 PM
I was actually thinking something similar to this myself the other day! Although as I was watching Arrow at the time I was thinking how good it could be if Rocksteady made a Green Arrow game. A ubi Robin hood game sounds awesome as well though :).

LoyalACFan
10-13-2015, 09:19 PM
I was actually thinking something similar to this myself the other day! Although as I was watching Arrow at the time I was thinking how good it could be if Rocksteady made a Green Arrow game. A ubi Robin hood game sounds awesome as well though :).

Green Arrow would be the logical next step for Rocksteady IMO, but I think a Superman game is inevitable.

cawatrooper9
10-13-2015, 10:02 PM
Green Arrow would be the logical next step for Rocksteady IMO, but I think a Superman game is inevitable.

One of my friends also thinks a Green Arrow game would make sense. Might be something to that.

Locopells
10-14-2015, 11:24 AM
I would have to agree about Green Arrow over Superman. I'm not quite sure how a SM game would go.

Either way, that's Rocksteady's problem!

m4r-k7
10-14-2015, 02:25 PM
I think Warner Bros are doing a Superman game as there was a leak a couple of weeks back. I really want a good Superman game and Rocksteady could make it awesome.

However, I think that Green Arrow is the perfect game for Rocksteady to go for as its more of a natural progression from Batman.

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 02:49 PM
Doing a Superman game right, means all the powers all the time. So X-Ray, Heat Vision, Cold Breath, Super Speed, Totally destructible environments, flight which means that you have to make a sky fit for Superman which means making a huge map where the trop half is filled with clouds and stuff for Superman to fly through and around.

It's not impossible but it's going to be expensive. One way to do it is avoid making it an open world game, I don't think open world games suit superhero games in general. Maybe Spiderman is an exception, but the fact that the Arkham games have to contrive the emptiness of actual citizens in its games each time proves my point. With Superman it simply won't do at all. Most Superman games generally focus on him using some powers rather than all of them. The perfect platonic Superman game should have him be able to use all his powers at once, so you have to multi-task and be effective.

Like say there's an earthquake or a natural disaster and Superman has to move fast to stop the plates from shaking or bringing the city to ruin (unlike AC, Superman comics can support the concept of earthquake machines) or a comet from colliding or other rubbish, he also has to use his senses to calculate roughly how much time before it spreads and causes serious damage, what are the blowback, the number of citizens affected and based on that he must achieve his goals in a set time in a certain order. It has to have puzzle, action adventure and suspense with it. It would be a huge mistake to make a Superman game like Batman Arkham Asylum.

LoyalACFan
10-14-2015, 05:01 PM
Doing a Superman game right, means all the powers all the time. So X-Ray, Heat Vision, Cold Breath, Super Speed, Totally destructible environments, flight which means that you have to make a sky fit for Superman which means making a huge map where the trop half is filled with clouds and stuff for Superman to fly through and around.

It's not impossible but it's going to be expensive. One way to do it is avoid making it an open world game, I don't think open world games suit superhero games in general. Maybe Spiderman is an exception, but the fact that the Arkham games have to contrive the emptiness of actual citizens in its games each time proves my point. With Superman it simply won't do at all. Most Superman games generally focus on him using some powers rather than all of them. The perfect platonic Superman game should have him be able to use all his powers at once, so you have to multi-task and be effective.

Like say there's an earthquake or a natural disaster and Superman has to move fast to stop the plates from shaking or bringing the city to ruin (unlike AC, Superman comics can support the concept of earthquake machines) or a comet from colliding or other rubbish, he also has to use his senses to calculate roughly how much time before it spreads and causes serious damage, what are the blowback, the number of citizens affected and based on that he must achieve his goals in a set time in a certain order. It has to have puzzle, action adventure and suspense with it. It would be a huge mistake to make a Superman game like Batman Arkham Asylum.

We're going outrageously off-topic right now but I just wanted to address the bolded part here... I think a Superman game almost HAS to be open-world if it's going to feel like the experience of being Superman. Flight is undoubtedly his most iconic power, and if you don't have big, open tracts of space to fly around in, it ain't really a Superman game. I think it needs to be open-world, but DEFINITELY not urban, for the exact reasons you mentioned (particularly the civilians and destructible environments). Unfortunately I don't think it's even possible to make a Superman game set in a sandbox Metropolis. I think they'd need to go into space with multiple planets, for a couple of reasons; firstly, to have an environment big enough for Supes to freely fly around in; secondly, to get away from urbanity and architecture; and thirdly, to drum up some intergalactic enemies for him to actually break a sweat fighting. The traditional Superman setup of him flying around protecting Metropolis from human criminals just doesn't lend itself at all to video games (and it could be argued that the original premise of the character as an invincible, perfect guardian of apple pie and freedom is completely incompatible with gaming, though he's taken a different turn since then).

I'd be happy to take this to PM though, I love talking about potential Superman games. It's a unique set of challenges :)

VestigialLlama4
10-14-2015, 05:38 PM
We're going outrageously off-topic right now but I just wanted to address the bolded part here... I think a Superman game almost HAS to be open-world if it's going to feel like the experience of being Superman. Flight is undoubtedly his most iconic power, and if you don't have big, open tracts of space to fly around in, it ain't really a Superman game.

I think we can go off-topic on this part, I did namedrop AC in the post prior to that (earthquake machines a la Rogue, Lex Luthor plans in Historical Fiction...disgusting doesn't begin to describe how I feel about it). I don't think an Open World will accomodate Superman's Flight, fundamentally it would be no different from what we can do with GTA's Helicopters, Planes or the Beluga in Beyond Good and Evil (which became a spaceship in the finale, the only time flying into space felt amazing in games). The fact is the open world for all its illusion of freedom is essentially a giant fish bowl or acquarium tank: at the top of the bowl there is a surface of water or a ceiling of pixels and once you hit that you realize how confined you actually are, and to me any Superman game that gives you that sense of confinement even at moment of essential limits will automatically be a failure.

Whereas a linear mission despite being limited can actually give you an illusion of more places to visit and the like. Like in Uncharted or Half Life, you really feel transported that you are going from point A to point B, that you travel and that the world is really really huge, much bigger than any Rockstar sandbox. Flight and other Superpowers can be incorporated in a Linear situation, like in Dishonored, you actually have a range of superpowers and you have several levels filled with sidequests, main objectives and areas you can move in and out of. Imagine if you are Superman, you can fly across that whole map and you are free to complete the mission in any order you want and since this is Superman you can totally buy that he would and could do side-objectives along with the pressing main ones. He's that kind of guy, to him a person with his foot trapped under a train track is as important as Lex Luthor's earthquake machine, to him every life matters.


I think it needs to be open-world, but DEFINITELY not urban, for the exact reasons you mentioned (particularly the civilians and destructible environments). Unfortunately I don't think it's even possible to make a Superman game set in a sandbox Metropolis. I think they'd need to go into space with multiple planets, for a couple of reasons; firstly, to have an environment big enough for Supes to freely fly around in; secondly, to get away from urbanity and architecture; and thirdly, to drum up some intergalactic enemies for him to actually break a sweat fighting. The traditional Superman setup of him flying around protecting Metropolis from human criminals just doesn't lend itself at all to video games (and it could be argued that the original premise of the character as an invincible, perfect guardian of apple pie and freedom is completely incompatible with gaming, though he's taken a different turn since then)

I actually like Superman as a character and find him really interesting, at least in the older stories. He's a lot more complex than Batman, who is actually not complex at all, Batman stories only get complex because of the bad guys (who have always been the far more interesting characters of his stories, that's true of the movies and games especially) but at heart Batman is monomaniacal and one dimensional which paradoxically makes him easier to adapt and put on to screen and games than characters like Superman and Spiderman who have more facets and issues going with them.

In any case I don't like the idea of intergalactic Superman at all, to me Superman's interesting when he's on earth, defending earth and when he interacts with people he cares about. Putting him on outer space would make him no different than any other space opera character. That's why a Linear Game a la Uncharted or even Dishonored would suit Superman better than an open world. Coding a sandbox around Superman would be insane, but you can come up with a story and discrete levels where Superman gets a series of challenges and trials to use all his abilities in a properly awesome way. Saving a town from an earthquake, diving in an active volcano, doing one mission as Clark Kent where you use super-hearing and X-Ray to track and move around, it's about the fantasy of being superman and using all those powers.

Locopells
10-15-2015, 12:47 PM
Probably a discussion for the BUWYWL thread, but I do have to agree about Superman working better in a linear game. Green Arrow, like Robin Hood, being more ground based, lends itself to open world better.

Anywhoo, as you said, off topic...

RobertMcSassin
10-15-2015, 01:16 PM
Can I just say that this is the first time I've ever been on television?...

No, sorry, we haven't time...

Er...Get that reference!!!...

Anyways...Just wanted to thank you all for an excellent discussion which has prompted me to dig out the five Musketeers novels and start upon thee firste... :D ...yes, I know it's Robin Hood but early on I mentioned The Musketeers...So there...

And yes, I still think it's a good idea... :D ...

And(redux) I'd also buy a Green Arrow game before a Superman one, simply because he - old grumpy-pants Oliver Queen, not this twelve year old they've got in the series - was, along with Green Lantern, my fave "Superhero" (he has no super...Hence the " "...)...Or perhaps that should read he was one of my faves along with Lantern...

Still like the idea of RH though...He says wrenching the point back to the topic.. ;) ...

Sushiglutton
10-15-2015, 02:53 PM
I think it's a given Rocksteady will work on a WB-licence, but if I could dream I would love if they were allowed to build their own IP from scratch.


I guess that Tomb Raider and Horizon will have to fill the Robin Hood gap. Both seem excellent imo.

Locopells
10-16-2015, 11:48 AM
I guess that Tomb Raider and Horizon will have to fill the Robin Hood gap. Both seem excellent imo.

Well, on reflection, it's looking like Rise of the Tomb Raider's mechanics would also work for a RH game, seeing as how they're introducing tree climbing and all, so yeah. Come to that, with all the poison arrows and everything, Lara edges ever closer to being Green Arrow as well...

eskimosound
10-14-2018, 06:47 PM
Yes, I had this idea yesterday and I'm very glad loads of people also agree...it's seems I was late to the party!!
Robin Hood Assassin Creed using the Mechanics of Origins and Odyssey would be totally awesome.
Openworld United Kingdom, yes Ireland, Scotland and Wales as well please...
Merry Men, Little John , Maid Marrion, Sheriff of Nottingham, Nottingham Forest, Castles, Stagecoaches, Knights in Armor...the scope is immense.
So Yes Please Ubisoft